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I'm curious about how the massive left/anti-fa movement in Berlin will react to this one. They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the sam
by tnolet 7y ago
I'm curious about how the massive left/anti-fa movement in Berlin will react to this one.
They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the same thing though.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-abandons-berlin-base-after-two-years-of-resistance https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-ab...
p.s. I'm based in Berlin. Have no horse in the race except that the Google office would have been right down the street of where I work.
- pjc50 7y agoTesla isn't particularly political and there's no Fascist angle?
- DanielleMolloy 7y agoCan you elaborate on how you think Google is „fascist“?
- erikpukinskis 7y agoI think the idea is Google is a good tool for a hypothetical future fascist state to use. But I think their main concern was gentrification not fascism.
- jussij 7y agoEurope has lived history of governments collecting data on it's citizens. Since Google openly collects data on it's users, I suspect that fact does not sit well with that same populous.
- pteredactyl 7y agoFalse comparison. Google users are voluntary. No one forces someone to use Google like the Government forces someone to pay tax.
- InternetOfStuff 7y ago> False comparison. Google users are voluntary. Not entirely. I can choose not to use Gmail or similar services. I can opt out of Google ads+tracking only because I'm technically adept enough. I can't (realistically) opt out of reCaptcha.
- chii 7y agoYou can opt out of recaptcha by just boycotting the website which uses it. But of course by "opt out" you mean to remain a user of a service but not the parts you don't like. Whether you are entitled to do this or not is still up for debate.
- InternetOfStuff 7y ago> You can opt out of recaptcha by just boycotting the website which uses it. Ah, I was waiting for somebody to make this argument, which I find somewhat disingenuous given how widespread reCaptcha's use is. With sites I don't care about leaving them is exactly what I do - but there are sites I pay a lot of money to use, and can't really avoid using for business reasons, yet they still subject me to reCaptcha. The path I've taken instead is to address this with the site owners. Most weren't really aware of how overreaching reCaptcha feels to some, and I've had good discussions. Of course nobody changed their site based on my complaint, but I like to think I raised awareness. > But of course by "opt out" you mean to remain a user of a service but not the parts you don't like. Specifically, a part of user verification. I'm still not sure why they feel they need to verify my humanity - they've got my credit card details and everything. > Whether you are entitled to do this or not is still up for debate. Let me ask the opposite question: is the owner of a website entitled to sell my privacy for their own (debatable) convenience? Tbh reCaptcha irks me more than ads.
- TomMarius 7y ago>Let me ask the opposite question: is the owner of a website entitled to sell my privacy for their own (debatable) convenience? Well yeah, they are, you're accepting that by using the recaptcha widget. Don't use it and then nobody will sell your data.
- tjoff 7y agoTesla does too. And it is much harder to get around it without modifying your Tesla. Not sure how they can be GDPR compliant, maybe it's only in the US where all cars are tracked in real-time?
- ascorbic 7y agoAfter the most recent update I was asked whether I would give permission for video clips to be sent to Tesla to improve self-driving and sentry mode. It was optional. The GPS tracking is required if lots of features are to work, so permission isn't needed under GDRP unless it's also used for other purposes. There are details in their privacy policy: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about/legal https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about/legal
- tjoff 7y agoThanks, that's sounds much better than what I've read before.
- pilsetnieks 7y agoGermans might be particularly sensitive about a Stasi-like surveillance apparatus.
- pjc50 7y agoI wasn't actually going to point to the surveillance question, and I didn't say that Google itself was fascist, but the parent poster seemed to think that antifa might have some opposition to google and did not offer their own reason.
- klausa 7y agoTesla is a luxury-good company that collects petabytes of data from public roads daily, is run by a billionaire that regularly makes an ass of himself on Twitter and is vocally anti-union. I'll join the protests myself.
- leesec 7y agoI think I'm missing something here. You'll protest people in Germany getting jobs because the CEO "makes an ass of himself on Twitter"? Like, why do you care?
- StuffedParrot 7y agoFirst, you ignored the substance of the comment. Second, Twitter has massive impact, and Elon Musk is an ass of a role model.
- pteredactyl 7y agoThey care because they've been given a voice. Yet lack the power and respect of someone like Elon Musk. It's best to ignore them, if possible.
- pixelpoet 7y agoIt's not really about that, so much as wanting to avoid what happened to the Bay Area. Massive gentrification, something Berlin has already struggled with for about 10 years (almost its defining issue in modern times IMO), is a serious problem if the rest of the city is rather poor, which Berlin actually was in the 2000s compared to the rest of the country ("poor but sexy", as it was sold).
- pteredactyl 7y agoWhen I hear this, I hear jobs and the most revolutionary green company are not welcome. If that's the case, Berlin is lost. There is good and bad to gentrification. You don't hear stories of the people who bought their house for 50k in 1980 who then sold it in 2010 for 1.3MM. Or the people thankful they don't have to walk around in fear of gangs for themselves or their children. TO me the biggest problem is the State. In SF, among many many other things, it's their zoning policies that caused the housing crisis. But they run education and media. So people blame the most revolutionary green company, or others bring wealth to the area, instead of the State.
- thatfrenchguy 7y agoYou’re making it look like it’s either the ghetto or the yuppies, but there is a clear middle that people don’t want to sacrifice either. Having a bunch of people paid 5 times what you are coming to your area is never fun.
- ponyfleisch 7y ago> Having a bunch of people paid 5 times what you are coming to your area is never fun. It's probably a net positive overall though, especially if the money these people are paid (and spend locally) is coming from other parts of the world/country.
- HeadsUpHigh 7y agoNah. German people can live in the hipster area we are talking about here without a job requiring a 4 year degree. Google in that area would be a net negative for them.
- erikpukinskis 7y agoTesla average salary is way below google so their main concern is moot here.
- DanielleMolloy 7y agoThis was a pure territorial war. I’ve seen the German campaign material, there was no sign of good reasons, at most a lot of misunderstanding of the idea of a startup incubator. I remember how I had to explain the idea to a very vocal campaigner who clearly did not get that Google was not planning to open a big dev center in their kiez after Google gave up. The underlying reason was the fear of rents rising in Kreuzberg. They didn’t protest against the new Spandau Siemens campus either. Siemens being in the arms industry, while Googlers openly protested against any military-related research during the same year. It’s just that no nobody wants to live in Spandau. The area around BER is even further away, and the close-by Adlershof is pretty much Berlins center for STEM research (many suppliers are there too). Could be a good move.
- cyberpunk 7y agoOi, I live in spandau. It's very green...
- ant6n 7y agoYou mean like Spandau bei Berlin?
- cyberpunk 7y agoSecond largest district in Berlin with the lowest population .... From that you could say Spandauers are the most ... 'unique' of the Berliners.. Seriously though, the only negative thing (besides the constant bei jokes) is the food is pretty crap in Spandau -- that's improving though.
- zeristor 7y agoAnti-fa, isn’t that just a term used by fascists? Fas? Wasn’t the Allied War effort in WW2 “Anti-Fa”? Or am I missing something? Perhaps this could be added to the reminders list for the next Remembrance Day?
- ludwigschubert 7y agoIn Germany they certainly self-identify with that name. Unsure why the website is down these days, but here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304102539/http://www.antifa.de/cms/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160304102539/http://www.antifa...
- freeflight 7y agoYou are missing a lot [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_anti-fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_anti-fascism
- pteredactyl 7y agoA public label is often only surface deep. For example, Google's original motto was: "Don't be evil."
- mqus 7y agoAs they want to open their factory next to the new Airport, it will basically be in Brandenburg and not in the center of Berlin (not that it would fit there). They probably will change the neighbourhood there, but automobile engineers are perceived as worker class while google techies generally are not. I also think that Google would have had no problems If they would have opened their office in Adlershof. So to summarize: Tesla: - builds factory in a practically greenfield area - employs middle-class workers Google: - buys old building in the middle of the "hip" leftist city district - employs high-wage workers which will drive gentrification So I think this will be received at least with mixed voices, but mostly positively.
- detaro 7y ago> I also think that Google would have had no problems If they would have opened their office in Adlershof. Google probably could have moved their office location ~2 km and have been fine. But they really wanted to sit right in the hornet nest.
- C1sc0cat 7y agoStill Middle class workers in both cases
- mqus 7y agoThat probably depends on the definition but I'm with you there. What I meant was the (media) perception which is definitely different for "hardworking, family-supporting car workers" vs "single, well-earning entitled startup employees", which are obviously clichés.
- jakobmi 7y agoAs a reaction, Google doubled down on the Munich office (+1500 employees) and Zurich, Switzerland (+4500 employees).
- troymc 7y agoGoogle has offices in Berlin, just not in Kreuzberg.
- watt 7y agoIt's curious to be sure, but I think they will react positively to Tesla. 1) Berlin is suffering from pollution, especially the diesel. For city dwellers the switch to electric car can't happen fast enough, and German auto makers have been absolutely dragging their heels. Tesla has become a symbol, a fuck-you to BMW, Mercedes, VW and their gas guzzling, diesel pushing ways. It's unbelievable how out of touch the german automakers have been. 2) The factory means some working-class jobs. The left won't see anything wrong with that. It's the coming gentrification that caused the upset against Google. 3) Factory is just outside Berlin, technically in Brandenburg. Near the (forever in construction) BER airport means less concerns about noise, etc.
- robert_foss 7y agoBeing a Berliner, on a personal level it would have been nice for me to have a Google office where they would have been. But I'm very happy about people standing up for their neighborhood and actually protesting. Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better. People fighting for their own local interests is what makes Berlin great, and it is _so_ refreshing after having lived in North America where no-one protests anything and letting corporate interests dominate yours is the norm.
- DanielleMolloy 7y agoBut Google did not want to open a dev center with its own employees there. Campaigners acted like their Kreuzberg was the navel of the world believing that. This was a „Google for Startups Campus“ project. Co-working spaces and startup events and so on. Money and potential funding for the Berlin startup scene. I’m rather worried how some vocal and partly violent people, seemingly without a lot of understanding of what they are campaigning against and how the tech world works managed to stop this project.
- robert_foss 7y agoHave it somewhere else? Have it in Mitte (Downtown) if really needs to exists. Kreuzberg is not a business park. I don't object to its existence, only location.
- kmlx 7y ago> Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better. i don't understand this. so berlin would rather have poor citizens? how is that better for the city? and how would >400 "well-compensated" people affect the city in anything but a positive manner? has there been any sort of study as to how better wages affect a city?
- CathedralBorrow 7y agoDo you reject the entire concept of gentrification or is there something about this particular instance you have trouble understanding?
- trianglem 7y agoI think tesla is going to be fine because it promises massive environmental improvements.
- trianglem 7y agoIsn't anti fascist just normal?