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> I will also point out that the European model is not free, universal college degrees for all - access is restricted behind rigorous entrance exams WHAT ?? No

by mam2 7y ago

> I will also point out that the European model is not free, universal college degrees for all - access is restricted behind rigorous entrance exams WHAT ?? Not. at. all. I'm french and university is almost FREE (never more than 1000 euros a year and mostly around 300) for anyone with the A-level, at any age. Yeah of course there are exams like for any diploma in the entire world but there are not "super rigorous" especially at uni. There's only a "hard" exam in medecine, and normal "exams" every year (like in every program in the world) that are basically a joke for anyone qualified in these disciplines. If you want you can enroll in elite tracks, which are very hard, but they are almost free too (i paid 0 for the education, 200 a year for housing + around 60 euro per month of food). Granted you have amphitheater with hundreds of people, but if you are motivated you'll get the education. The most expensive school in frances are the high end economic school and some engineering school (not the best ones actually) and it's under 10k a year. You have no idea of how much you get screwed in the US

wolco 7y ago
The cost he mentions is the A average you have. If you had a C or D average you would not have made it in.
- stan_rogers 7y ago
  Language problem: A-level isn't an A average. The post you are replying to was written in British-compatible English and you read it in an American-compatible dialect. Think of it as a "full high school" education, as opposed to the early-leaving program for immediate employment or trade school (which in England would be a GCSE, or O-level in former times). Here in Ontario, Canada, we used to have a Grade 13 for university educattion qualification; in Quebec, one attends CEGEP between an abbreviated high school and university.
fifityyp 7y ago
Standard Univ courses (at least in science and economics) are way subpar compared the same degree pursued in schools or high-end universities with a competitive exam in France. Source: I did an engineering school and did one master in university. However, I liked more the atmosphere in University. Also, most private eng schools are crap though they're quite expensive. So it doesn't seem that tuition have an incidence on quality, at least in France.
privateSFacct 7y ago
French universities are MUCH more competitive then programs in the US to get into (you can get into bachelors programs in the US at community college level / for-profit schools etc with almost no reading / writing or math skills or even English language skills. Seriously - if you want to be a vet in the EU it is CRAZY competitive. You simply have no chance to get in unless you have top Abitur scores. Everyone saying you just need a high school degree to get into a vet school or anything else is dreaming. Many of the high schools themselves are tiered schools.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  > Many of the high schools are tiered Indeed, so people don’t spend a ton of time teaching that which won’t stick no matter what. It’s absolutely possible to tier-up if you are so inclined, but generally that involves a lot of work on your part.
hansthehorse 7y ago
My wife grew up in Montreal and paid a laughably small amount at McGill.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Yes I paid $2500/semester (CAD) for my engineering degree in Canada. Living in the Bay Area has made me appreciate my people all the more.
  - fouc 7y ago
    20 years ago right?
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Nah, graduated in 2010. My brother paid the same amount, graduated last year. Current-year tuition fees at Carleton range from $3500CAD/semester to $5800CAD/semester [1] for domestic students. The province foots the bill for over half, probably closer to three quarters based on the international student fees. It's gone up a little but it's hardly un-manageable. Both my brother and I graduated without debt by working during the summers, and both scholarships and bursaries are available to help cover the costs -- and loans via OSAP [2]. FWIW I did mean to type $3500 in my original post, which is probably now closer to $5000. [1] https://admissions.carleton.ca/scholarships/domestic-costs/ https://admissions.carleton.ca/scholarships/domestic-costs/ [2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/osap-ontario-student-assistance-program https://www.ontario.ca/page/osap-ontario-student-assistance-...
  - xienze 7y ago
    > Living in the Bay Area has made me appreciate my people all the more. Not enough to still live there, apparently. Sounds like Canada is good in some respects but worse in others, like making good money in your chosen career. Every country has trade-offs, and the US’s is that a lot of safety nets aren’t there but the sky’s the limit for high achievers. Some people like it that way.
    - 7y ago
jorblumesea 7y ago
> You have no idea of how much you get screwed in the US This is true of many issues the US faces that Europe has solved. Healthcare, education, income inequality, housing, transportation, gun violence... Just go down down the list and it's easy to find "unsolvable American problems" that have solutions, and that we Americans are totally ignorant about or refuse to acknowledge, saying it "won't work for us".
- Aeolun 7y ago
  The US might well be better than the EU for the top 20% of people or so, which often happen to be the ones making laws, so I can see how that would happen.
- briandear 7y ago
  Has Europe solved these things? I lived in France for a number of years and unemployment, especially outside of Paris is very high, the economy is in the doldrums (especially in smaller cities like Avignon,) the Maghreb continue to be treated like second class citizens, and terrorism is a very real and continual threat. Health insurance is good, but the system is running huge deficits. And gun violence? Spend a few minutes with the Marseille police and you’ll see the gangland violence is dramatic. As far as income inequality— that’s debatable. The upper classes are kept from getting too “upper,” but the lower classes still live in decaying concrete block housing. Americans also have about $14,000 more per year in disposable income compared to the French — that’s after accounting for insurance, education, etc. The very poor do better in France, but should we be optimizing society around the ultra-poor? Doing that means that everyone else is worse off and the ultra poor are still pretty poor. As far as transportation, spend some time in smaller French towns. You better hope you have a car or you aren’t going anywhere. There is also the high cost and oppressive regulation around starting a business. Entrepreneurship in France is very difficult despite the word itself being invented there. France rewards mediocrity.

by mam2 7y ago

wolco 7y ago

The cost he mentions is the A average you have. If you had a C or D average you would not have made it in.

stan_rogers 7y ago
Language problem: A-level isn't an A average. The post you are replying to was written in British-compatible English and you read it in an American-compatible dialect. Think of it as a "full high school" education, as opposed to the early-leaving program for immediate employment or trade school (which in England would be a GCSE, or O-level in former times). Here in Ontario, Canada, we used to have a Grade 13 for university educattion qualification; in Quebec, one attends CEGEP between an abbreviated high school and university.

fifityyp 7y ago

Standard Univ courses (at least in science and economics) are way subpar compared the same degree pursued in schools or high-end universities with a competitive exam in France. Source: I did an engineering school and did one master in university. However, I liked more the atmosphere in University. Also, most private eng schools are crap though they're quite expensive. So it doesn't seem that tuition have an incidence on quality, at least in France.

privateSFacct 7y ago

French universities are MUCH more competitive then programs in the US to get into (you can get into bachelors programs in the US at community college level / for-profit schools etc with almost no reading / writing or math skills or even English language skills. Seriously - if you want to be a vet in the EU it is CRAZY competitive. You simply have no chance to get in unless you have top Abitur scores. Everyone saying you just need a high school degree to get into a vet school or anything else is dreaming. Many of the high schools themselves are tiered schools.

Aeolun 7y ago
> Many of the high schools are tiered Indeed, so people don’t spend a ton of time teaching that which won’t stick no matter what. It’s absolutely possible to tier-up if you are so inclined, but generally that involves a lot of work on your part.

hansthehorse 7y ago

My wife grew up in Montreal and paid a laughably small amount at McGill.

arcticbull 7y ago
Yes I paid $2500/semester (CAD) for my engineering degree in Canada. Living in the Bay Area has made me appreciate my people all the more.
- fouc 7y ago
  20 years ago right?
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Nah, graduated in 2010. My brother paid the same amount, graduated last year. Current-year tuition fees at Carleton range from $3500CAD/semester to $5800CAD/semester [1] for domestic students. The province foots the bill for over half, probably closer to three quarters based on the international student fees. It's gone up a little but it's hardly un-manageable. Both my brother and I graduated without debt by working during the summers, and both scholarships and bursaries are available to help cover the costs -- and loans via OSAP [2]. FWIW I did mean to type $3500 in my original post, which is probably now closer to $5000. [1] https://admissions.carleton.ca/scholarships/domestic-costs/ https://admissions.carleton.ca/scholarships/domestic-costs/ [2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/osap-ontario-student-assistance-program https://www.ontario.ca/page/osap-ontario-student-assistance-...
- xienze 7y ago
  > Living in the Bay Area has made me appreciate my people all the more. Not enough to still live there, apparently. Sounds like Canada is good in some respects but worse in others, like making good money in your chosen career. Every country has trade-offs, and the US’s is that a lot of safety nets aren’t there but the sky’s the limit for high achievers. Some people like it that way.
  - 7y ago

jorblumesea 7y ago

> You have no idea of how much you get screwed in the US This is true of many issues the US faces that Europe has solved. Healthcare, education, income inequality, housing, transportation, gun violence... Just go down down the list and it's easy to find "unsolvable American problems" that have solutions, and that we Americans are totally ignorant about or refuse to acknowledge, saying it "won't work for us".

Aeolun 7y ago
The US might well be better than the EU for the top 20% of people or so, which often happen to be the ones making laws, so I can see how that would happen.
briandear 7y ago
Has Europe solved these things? I lived in France for a number of years and unemployment, especially outside of Paris is very high, the economy is in the doldrums (especially in smaller cities like Avignon,) the Maghreb continue to be treated like second class citizens, and terrorism is a very real and continual threat. Health insurance is good, but the system is running huge deficits. And gun violence? Spend a few minutes with the Marseille police and you’ll see the gangland violence is dramatic. As far as income inequality— that’s debatable. The upper classes are kept from getting too “upper,” but the lower classes still live in decaying concrete block housing. Americans also have about $14,000 more per year in disposable income compared to the French — that’s after accounting for insurance, education, etc. The very poor do better in France, but should we be optimizing society around the ultra-poor? Doing that means that everyone else is worse off and the ultra poor are still pretty poor. As far as transportation, spend some time in smaller French towns. You better hope you have a car or you aren’t going anywhere. There is also the high cost and oppressive regulation around starting a business. Entrepreneurship in France is very difficult despite the word itself being invented there. France rewards mediocrity.