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What this article fails to mention: there was recently a case discovered where one of the clients of these troll farms was... Ministry of Justice. They used to

What this article fails to mention: there was recently a case discovered where one of the clients of these troll farms was... Ministry of Justice. They used to slander judges who were not in the political line of thought of the previous / current leading party. The knowledge of this was as high up as Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the man who appears to be driving the whole country from the back seat. One of many, many articles available in Polish press: https://www.rp.pl/Sedziowie-i-sady/309239933-Farma-trolli-w-Ministerstwie-Sprawiedliwosci-co-ustalil-UODO-ws-wycieku-danych-sedziow.html https://www.rp.pl/Sedziowie-i-sady/309239933-Farma-trolli-w-... Edit: added „line of“ in „ They used to slander judges who were not in the political line of thought of the previous / current leading party.“

A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
I can't say it surprises me. But I think by now every government is using such farms. I find it difficult to believe otherwise based on recent FCC issues ( https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jsvine/net-neutrality-fcc-fake-comments-impersonation https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jsvine/net-neutrality-f...). Yes, sadly, I am invoking everyone is doin' it.
- namdnay 7y ago
  Based on these two examples, I wouldn’t say “everyone”. Every corrupt populist administration maybe?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    I agree with the argument that two examples are not exactly a pattern, but I am not basing my opinion on just those. It may be that I have become too cynical lately, but if some court cases taught us recently, it is that popular fora of all kinds are a battleground of sorts and everyone there is either an FBI agent, a shill or a dog. For the record, the moment you used word populist makes me question whether you have an axe to grind yourself ( ie. UE establishment is not that happy about Poland and Hungary breaking ranks), but I digress.. This how bad it is. HN is pretty decent moderation-wise and I still keep my guard up.
  - brokenkebab 7y ago
    Everyone who has enough resources to pay for this kind of PR services - that would be correct. I used to work for an ad company which provided "artificial opinions" to a bunch of clients, including a charity for disabled people for example.
  - ShorsHammer 7y ago
    >Every corrupt populist administration maybe Well the US has been openly doing it for nearly a decade. Care to reconsider your point of view? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  I don't think it's just government, but also likely industries as well. I've seen what could only be trolling for support of nuclear power and the medical industry.
  - Shivetya 7y ago
    anyone with a vested interest on any side of an argument is a candidate for these types of services. we can all go pick the groups we don't like, paint with that broad brush, but in the end we need to realize that all sides do this and we need to be aware. with the internet comes a lot of freedom and this is part of the price of having it because you can bet there is a politician waiting in the wings who will ask you to let them muzzle someone to protect you all the while another politician may be selling your right to speak.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      I disagree that all sides do this. Some sides simply have no money or resources to hire professional trolls. For example home owners that do not want a nuclear reactor in their backyard are not likely candidates for troll farms, but huge energy companies (or whomever) are.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Based on my personal experience, being one of the few pro-nuclear voices in the ostensibly anti-nuclear social media [filter bubble], I'm half-inclined to accuse you of being an anti-nuclear shill. But I think you're not, we just live in different filter bubbles. As for nuclear NIMBYs, sure, individually they don't have the money (I'm a nuclear YIMBY, and I don't have it either). But there's plenty of organizations with money and influence, campaigning against nuclear - e.g. fossil fuel industry, Greenpeace. So I'm going to back the GP - everyone does that.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        That's a fair assessment, it's hard to really tell anyone's true motivations. But that is why it's so hard to tell who is a paid shill and who is genuinely invested in their beliefs/position. It's the vastness of comments that I find as evidence of something wrong, not specific posts.
- seppin 7y ago
  At this point, it would be malpractice to not use them given their effectiveness. That doesn't mean we can't point out the origins and continued presence from bad actors.
  - jdashg 7y ago
    It's malpractice to use effective things without regard for ethics.
    - seppin 7y ago
      If you are talking about marketing or advertising, sure. If it's politics, and one side uses them and the other doesn't, you'll never win another election. Ethics don't matter in that case.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  If a party did that in a country where voters respond appropriately to this kind of thing, that political party would be wiped out for a generation. If a party manages to dupe people into thinking their populist cause is important enough to see past the use of troll factories for message control, then that I think says a lot about the health of a democracy. I can imagine this happening in Poland, Hungary or perhaps even Italy, but not in that many places in the EU apart from those.
  - jellicle 7y ago
    I would guess that as of 2019 there is no political party of any size in the western world not using such services. If they have an annual revenue of $1,000,000, they're doing it. Many of them will be doing it through a PR firm to maintain deniability in the event of disclosure. But each and every party is doing it.
    - yeahforsureman 7y ago
      No way. Sadly, the sole existence of troll farms is enough to create and reinforce political paranoia. Your message (parent) here, for example, is exactly the kind of stuff I've come to associate with Russian and similar trolling (sowing distrust in institutions etc.)...
      - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
        But you have to be extremely naive to not believe it. Work somewhere near marketing and you realize everything is shilled upon you. The politicians have used these tricks hundreds of years ago, things are just different with a new platform. Have you thought about the idea that you yourself are a victim of a marketing department if you believe every criticism is related to Russian campaigns?
        Retric 7y ago
        Paid for troll farms are waste of money when the general public already agrees with the party. Thus, many parties have no reason to do this when members of the general public are willing to do it for free.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  Speculation. The US government is not sponsoring Troll Farms. Private companies in the USA almost certainly are. That's what happened with the FCC.
  - ouiterestos 7y ago
    Does Operation Earnest Voice and Project Mockingbird not count as government sponsored troll farms?
burntoutfire 7y ago
In this particular case, wasn't the supposed "farm" actually one person?
pawelk 7y ago
It was definitely a case of leaking sensitive info to an on-line "troll", who then published it via Twitter and got this re-tweeted by shady followers, but in this particular case it was not a farm (as in trolling as a service), it was an individual with personal connections to some of the Ministry of Justice officials.
rasz 7y ago
'It would be great if you posted positive comments about the government’s subsidy for TVP and the television licence fee,' is not a troll farm, its a PR firm. 'company’s rightwing accounts would then oppose the leftwing accounts, generating conflict and traffic' reads like something straight from Douglas Adams works. Article also fails to mention a real political troll farm discovered some time earlier https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.polskieradio24.pl/5/1222/Artykul/2359247,Farma-trolli-w-inowroclawskim-ratuszu-K-Brejza-zapowiada-pozew&prev=search https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://... ran by current parliament member (representing failed party, PO, the one whose members recently voted pro censorship in EU) inside a Town Hall and utilized city employees on the clock.

A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago

I can't say it surprises me. But I think by now every government is using such farms. I find it difficult to believe otherwise based on recent FCC issues ( https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jsvine/net-neutrality-fcc-fake-comments-impersonation https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jsvine/net-neutrality-f...). Yes, sadly, I am invoking everyone is doin' it.

namdnay 7y ago
Based on these two examples, I wouldn’t say “everyone”. Every corrupt populist administration maybe?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  I agree with the argument that two examples are not exactly a pattern, but I am not basing my opinion on just those. It may be that I have become too cynical lately, but if some court cases taught us recently, it is that popular fora of all kinds are a battleground of sorts and everyone there is either an FBI agent, a shill or a dog. For the record, the moment you used word populist makes me question whether you have an axe to grind yourself ( ie. UE establishment is not that happy about Poland and Hungary breaking ranks), but I digress.. This how bad it is. HN is pretty decent moderation-wise and I still keep my guard up.
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  Everyone who has enough resources to pay for this kind of PR services - that would be correct. I used to work for an ad company which provided "artificial opinions" to a bunch of clients, including a charity for disabled people for example.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  >Every corrupt populist administration maybe Well the US has been openly doing it for nearly a decade. Care to reconsider your point of view? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice
RobertRoberts 7y ago
I don't think it's just government, but also likely industries as well. I've seen what could only be trolling for support of nuclear power and the medical industry.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  anyone with a vested interest on any side of an argument is a candidate for these types of services. we can all go pick the groups we don't like, paint with that broad brush, but in the end we need to realize that all sides do this and we need to be aware. with the internet comes a lot of freedom and this is part of the price of having it because you can bet there is a politician waiting in the wings who will ask you to let them muzzle someone to protect you all the while another politician may be selling your right to speak.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    I disagree that all sides do this. Some sides simply have no money or resources to hire professional trolls. For example home owners that do not want a nuclear reactor in their backyard are not likely candidates for troll farms, but huge energy companies (or whomever) are.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Based on my personal experience, being one of the few pro-nuclear voices in the ostensibly anti-nuclear social media [filter bubble], I'm half-inclined to accuse you of being an anti-nuclear shill. But I think you're not, we just live in different filter bubbles. As for nuclear NIMBYs, sure, individually they don't have the money (I'm a nuclear YIMBY, and I don't have it either). But there's plenty of organizations with money and influence, campaigning against nuclear - e.g. fossil fuel industry, Greenpeace. So I'm going to back the GP - everyone does that.
      - RobertRoberts 7y ago
        That's a fair assessment, it's hard to really tell anyone's true motivations. But that is why it's so hard to tell who is a paid shill and who is genuinely invested in their beliefs/position. It's the vastness of comments that I find as evidence of something wrong, not specific posts.
seppin 7y ago
At this point, it would be malpractice to not use them given their effectiveness. That doesn't mean we can't point out the origins and continued presence from bad actors.
- jdashg 7y ago
  It's malpractice to use effective things without regard for ethics.
  - seppin 7y ago
    If you are talking about marketing or advertising, sure. If it's politics, and one side uses them and the other doesn't, you'll never win another election. Ethics don't matter in that case.
alkonaut 7y ago
If a party did that in a country where voters respond appropriately to this kind of thing, that political party would be wiped out for a generation. If a party manages to dupe people into thinking their populist cause is important enough to see past the use of troll factories for message control, then that I think says a lot about the health of a democracy. I can imagine this happening in Poland, Hungary or perhaps even Italy, but not in that many places in the EU apart from those.
- jellicle 7y ago
  I would guess that as of 2019 there is no political party of any size in the western world not using such services. If they have an annual revenue of $1,000,000, they're doing it. Many of them will be doing it through a PR firm to maintain deniability in the event of disclosure. But each and every party is doing it.
  - yeahforsureman 7y ago
    No way. Sadly, the sole existence of troll farms is enough to create and reinforce political paranoia. Your message (parent) here, for example, is exactly the kind of stuff I've come to associate with Russian and similar trolling (sowing distrust in institutions etc.)...
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
      But you have to be extremely naive to not believe it. Work somewhere near marketing and you realize everything is shilled upon you. The politicians have used these tricks hundreds of years ago, things are just different with a new platform. Have you thought about the idea that you yourself are a victim of a marketing department if you believe every criticism is related to Russian campaigns?
      - Retric 7y ago
        Paid for troll farms are waste of money when the general public already agrees with the party. Thus, many parties have no reason to do this when members of the general public are willing to do it for free.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
Speculation. The US government is not sponsoring Troll Farms. Private companies in the USA almost certainly are. That's what happened with the FCC.
- ouiterestos 7y ago
  Does Operation Earnest Voice and Project Mockingbird not count as government sponsored troll farms?

burntoutfire 7y ago

In this particular case, wasn't the supposed "farm" actually one person?

pawelk 7y ago

It was definitely a case of leaking sensitive info to an on-line "troll", who then published it via Twitter and got this re-tweeted by shady followers, but in this particular case it was not a farm (as in trolling as a service), it was an individual with personal connections to some of the Ministry of Justice officials.

rasz 7y ago

'It would be great if you posted positive comments about the government’s subsidy for TVP and the television licence fee,' is not a troll farm, its a PR firm. 'company’s rightwing accounts would then oppose the leftwing accounts, generating conflict and traffic' reads like something straight from Douglas Adams works. Article also fails to mention a real political troll farm discovered some time earlier https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.polskieradio24.pl/5/1222/Artykul/2359247,Farma-trolli-w-inowroclawskim-ratuszu-K-Brejza-zapowiada-pozew&prev=search https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://... ran by current parliament member (representing failed party, PO, the one whose members recently voted pro censorship in EU) inside a Town Hall and utilized city employees on the clock.