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U.S. opens a national security review of TikTok’s acquisition of Musical.ly

393 points by situational87 7y ago

situational87 7y ago
After the US claimed that Huawei was a national security threat only to drop this claim completely when China started cooperating on trade talks I honestly don't know what to believe anymore.
- inetknght 7y ago
  China started cooperating on trade talks?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- oogali 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you're referring to in reference to "drop this claim completely". FCC is actively pursuing removal of Huawei and ZTE equipment under a threat to national security. https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/28/fcc-rules-huawei-zte/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/28/fcc-rules-huawei-zte/
  - josefresco 7y ago
    > I'm not sure what you're referring to in reference to "drop this claim completely". Probably in reference to this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/business/dealbook/huawei-5g-national-security-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/business/dealbook/huawei-...
    - airstrike 7y ago
      That was a really good read. Thanks for sharing
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  > I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. Business is business.
- thefounder 7y ago
  The point is that any foreign company becomes a national security threat if it's big enough and it threats the domestic player. It's really all about power(economic and technological).
- avocado4 7y ago
  You're making up facts. US is actively restricting Huawei from doing business with them.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
YouTube: That's a nice video streaming business you got there TikTok. A shame if anything ever happened to it.
- DiabloD3 7y ago
  Honestly, I think it's more "You know what happens when you piss off the US gov, Youtube?" (Gov shoots TikTok, to make an example) "That's what. Now get back to work." Youtube has done a lot of stupid things lately that really do feel like it is an external political agenda being forced on them, not an internal one being forced by misguided placation of shareholders.
  - cblades 7y ago
    Could you expand on some of the things youtube has done that you believe might be the result of external political pressure?
    - drharby 7y ago
      YT has been known to remove selfrepair videos or demonization of said videos.
      - root_axis 7y ago
        Huh? Since when? This sounds really odd to me because my dad is obsessed with DIY and self-repair videos on YouTube and has never had a problem finding tons of such content to watch daily.
      - duxup 7y ago
        Does that sound like a political pressure thing or just the usual "company complaints / files bs reports and YT complies"? I'm not at all convinced there is any large scale love for YouTube as far as US policy goes.
        drharby 7y ago
AWildC182 7y ago
Does anyone have any insight into their revenue model? How are they succeeding where Vine failed or are they still just riding investor capital?
- taobility 7y ago
  It's similar like Instagram. In your video feed, it would mix some promoted videos.
- judge2020 7y ago
  They're trying to make them more interactive with things like "challenges" and making them look like regular [usually funny] videos. It's still super easy to skip by them.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Profitability is not required if you are an intelligence asset for the state. In this case, the state is China. Maybe it's legitimately profitable, maybe the Chinese govt is purchasing ads with other companies it owns, maybe the books are entirely cooked. It's hard to tell in China.
  - avocado4 7y ago
    You're being downvoted but state subsidies are one of the largest concerns US/EU have with China, so it's a valid point. Not to say that TikTok doesn't have any revenue at all, they have ads.
    - gman83 7y ago
      I've seen maybe 3 ads in using TikTok for 6 months every day.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
NN88 7y ago
FaceApp redux? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/18/heres-what-we-know-about-russian-company-behind-faceapp/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/18/heres-w...
feelthepress 7y ago
Oct 14: "TikTok has moved into Facebook’s backyard and is starting to poach its employees" https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/tiktok-has-mountain-view-office-near-facebook-poaching-employees.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/tiktok-has-mountain-view-off...
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  If they're highering engineers at "20% above Facebook compensation", it really doesn't make sense. In china they could higher roughly 15 top engineers for the price of 1 engineer in the bay area (in China there's an even bigger surplus of engineering talent).
  - chrisjc 7y ago
    Makes perfect sense. Poaching FB's (or any competition for that matter) employees potentially makes them easier to compete with and increases the cost for FB to compete.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    That's simply not true. A top engineer in China costs at least $100k, no way Facebook is paying its engineers ~$1.5 million. ByteDance is famous for paying high salaries: https://crm.org/articles/3-million-pay-packages-how-a-chinese-startup-is-attracting-top-talent https://crm.org/articles/3-million-pay-packages-how-a-chines....
bredren 7y ago
It was clear to me how threatened Facebook was by TikTok when I brought it up with an employee in June. They kept mentioning infinite scroll, and that everyone was supposed to be thinking about how to incorporate that into product. After zuck discussed TikTok directly recently, I’m not surprised google and fb lobbyists would press for this investigation. One question I have, is the real-time interests of millions of 16-24 yo Americans reported back to the Chinese government a national security concern?
- paxys 7y ago
  16-24 yo (and even younger) American kids/youth being exposed to Chinese propoganda and censorship is most definitely a national security concern.
  - tbyehl 7y ago
    Yes, Americans should only be exposed to American Corporate-sanctioned propaganda.
    - ShteiLoups 7y ago
      Hey, at least americans can vote on that propoganda.
      - hnuser77 7y ago
        They can not. Media ownership and media content, even NPR, is not tied to electoral representation.
      - ahoy 7y ago
        I didn't realize we were all on facebook's board of directors.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    Nothing is stopping Americans from placing their own propaganda via paid ads or pro-US videos. As long as you're not stupid and push obvious points re: HK, that will immediately come to the attention of censors, you can go far.
nknealk 7y ago
I highly recommend folks listen to recent episodes of Ben Thompson’s exponent podcast where he discusses TikTok and its influence in the USA. He makes the point that US consumers become subject to Chinese censorship policies when using the platform while China outright bans or heavily restricts American companies from operating (eg google search, Facebook).
- duxup 7y ago
  I wonder too if say you tried to advertise on TikTok but your company was not complying with Chinese censorship requests, or you employed an outspoken advocate, or you employed some folks who posted something about Uyghurs on social media elsewhere ... what would TikTok's response be?
- stevenhubertron 7y ago
  I tried to find it but failed. Do you happen to remember the date it aired?
  - storf45 7y ago
    Episode 175
  - garren 7y ago
    Based on references to TikTok here, https://stratechery.com/ https://stratechery.com/ it looks like it’s ep176 https://exponent.fm/episode-176-the-second-estate-era/ https://exponent.fm/episode-176-the-second-estate-era/
- bamboozled 7y ago
  What’s the point here though? America et al also don’t like certain things being published on social media and try stop it from existing on those platforms too.
  - servercobra 7y ago
    Do you have an example? The only things I can think of are illegal (like child porn) which everyone should be able to agree should be banned.
CydeWeys 7y ago
I'll never understand why (a) Vine was shut down, and (b) So many Americans are eager to rush out and use a Chinese social network. I suspect (b) can be explained primarily through ignorance.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  The globe increasingly feels so connected as to make people not question where things like social networks reside. In the mind of average people, until they have a political axe to grind, the Nation is all but obsolete. The only time the idea has any sticking power is when people are concerned about jobs. Other than that, nobody seems to care all that much.
  - bcrosby95 7y ago
    It's not about a "political axe", its about being adversely affected by the policies of that nation. Unless other nations began to intrude on their daily life people don't care what those nations do so they may as well not exist. Part of why China has been in the minds of (some) Americans lately is its becoming obvious they are trying to apply their censorious nature to US citizens on US soil, sometimes using US companies. And, yeah, I'm well aware that the US does similar things to other countries. And some people in other countries on this site complain about that too. It doesn't mean they're just grinding some political axe though. Do you think people in Hong Kong and Taiwan feel like nations are "all but obsolete"? South/North Korea? Tibet? Crimea? This idea of nations being obsolete feels like a fairly privileged position.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Oh yes it’s absolutely privileged. Doesn’t make it less true. The GP asked why Americans were so ready to use a Chinese social network. My answer is they don’t care because they don’t think of it as overtly Chinese, and those that do don’t really care unless they have a reason to.
- ninth_ant 7y ago
  Despite the initial hype, Vine was super niche and stopped growing. After it was bought, it seems the new owners didn’t have the foresight or patience to evolve the product into something with more mainstream appeal.
crb002 7y ago
Those Facebook lobbyists paid off.
- justinzollars 7y ago
  That was my thought on this matter.
nostromo 7y ago
I would support a wholesale ban on Chinese acquisitions of American companies until American companies are allowed to acquire Chinese companies (or otherwise operate in China). These ridiculous double standards from China are not free trade, and we should stop pretending it is.
- president 7y ago
  Most people probably realize it. What we need is for the American CEOs, financial elite, members of government that have investments in China to invest in their own country rather than in a lop-sided trade economy that doesn't allow free flow of money back to the US.
  - influx 7y ago
    This is an area where both the right and left can find agreement.
    - hokumguru 7y ago
      I certainly hope so, it seems everyone in our leadership nowadays is too busy squabbling rather than focus on actually important issues.
    - RIMR 7y ago
      That's hilarious! You think the American right would be pro-regulation...
    - eanzenberg 7y ago
      Doesn't 1 side support globalism politically though?
      - hitpointdrew 7y ago
        Don't you mean 2 sides? Both parties have gone off the globalist cliff.
RedComet 7y ago
US companies (Twitter, Facebook, Google) censor people all the time.
- mrtksn 7y ago
  After all the political stuff going on, every country began seeing foreign communication companies as a national security threat. Russia and China were early on this but EU is also tightening the grip. We had a good go but since the politicians got involved I expect the internet to become separated into regional islands of regulations. Facebook probably had a dream of becoming a global political influence broker and sell mandate to the highest bidder but I think the people who control the guys with the guns are not especially thrilled to play this game.
  - kart23 7y ago
    I dont know, I really fear a world where the US blocks all chinese social media, and china blocks all US social media, in the name of 'national security'.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      That would be unfortunate, but it's not nearly as bad as the effects we'll see if the trend of information warfare against civilians continues. I've come to expect falsehoods on the internet for political or commercial gain -- but I find the recent trend of using propaganda to spark hatred, outrage, and panic, to be particularly disturbing.
- kube-system 7y ago
  This is about more than simply censorship, the broader concern is social manipulation at the hand of foreign governments. And likewise, those US companies have also drawn similar regulatory attention.
dade_ 7y ago
TikTok is actually a great app. Content is very entertaining and it is actually easy to use. I still can't figure out Snapchat. Today it is just a way for me to burn 15 minutes, but I see plenty of potential and make the concerns of censorship and ownership valid concerns.
- rygh 7y ago
  And jumping bytes is a great company yet they have no choice but to get political and enforce censorship that bans lgbt contents.
drgoodvibe 7y ago
China now flexing its soft power...
- spectramax 7y ago
  You can't flex "soft power" when all you have is monetary grip of the situation (investments). Where is tactful diplomacy, cooperation and building mutual rapport when dealing with China?
  - SkyMarshal 7y ago
    Soft power is all about money. All the rest you mention is useless without it.
objektif 7y ago
There is a massive push to make TikTok a thing. But it is the most stupid app I have ever seen. So they might as well stop pushing the fake videos online.
- justinzollars 7y ago
  This app is amazing. Its growing like crazy.
rygh 7y ago
I know this a long time ago, they ban lgbt content and I never download the app on my phone. Chinese business is controlled by the state.
colorincorrect 7y ago
unrelated question: but why would any investigator leak information like this? who benefits?
- buboard 7y ago
  i suppose there are trade deal talks going on between us and china?
yorwba 7y ago
The article conveniently forgets to mention that Musical.ly was founded by Chinese founders and headquartered in Shanghai. Maybe they technically were an American company, but it's not clear the outcome would have been much different from a "national security" perspective.
- adventured 7y ago
  That doesn't matter at all. The US controls its domestic market - just as China controls their domestic market - and when it comes to going back and reviewing the TikTok / Musical.ly combination it can dictate terms across the app stores which are all US controlled. The US can say: we're going to ban your combined entity from all global app stores by forcing Google and Apple to comply with our position on that merged entity (TikTok + Musical.ly). Google and Apple resist? Say hello to national security based sanctions. They will immediately comply, no more questions asked. The US can instantly, globally kill TikTok, for all intents and purposes. TikTok would disappear from most global app store availability within a week, from Canada to Australia. It would probably only exist in China. It's unfair? Tell Qualcomm - NXP that. That was blocked solely out of spite by China. This is an economic conflict with China. When China lets US Internet companies have proper, full access to their market maybe the US will relent and start playing 'fair.'
  - yorwba 7y ago
    Yes, the US government has the power to block mergers. However, consider the hypothetical scenario where Musical.ly rejects TikTok's offer and competes them out of the US market, growing to the same size as TikTok is today. In that case, there would be no merger to block, but the national security implications would remain the same. What would the US government do then? Put them on a blacklist like Huawei?
    - zachguo 7y ago
      It will be forced to sell to US entities, like Alstom and Samsung.
Merrill 7y ago
Musical.ly was started by entrepreneurs in Shanghai. Although it may have had US and Japanese investors, I don't think it was an American company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly >"It’s the first company to be headquartered in China, designed in China, but popular in the US," said Greylock investor Josh Elman. "Finally we’re seeing talented people who live in that ecosystem in that world and actually transcend it and build products in the US." https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-musically-2016-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-musically-2016-5
- sgustard 7y ago
  Well the Reuters article says it's a US company, as does https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/musical-ly https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/musical-ly.
  - unlinked_dll 7y ago
    It might have US based personnel/assets that are incorporated in the US but wholly owned by a foreign company
  - huac 7y ago
    the US government says it's a US company, so...
- mgraczyk 7y ago
  I've heard this myth that musical.ly was founded in China before, but it's hard to believe if you look at some basic facts. One cofounder worked full time at SAP in SF bay area for several years before and after musical.ly was founded. The other says on his LinkedIn that he was working in Santa Monica for several years on either side of the founding. They lived, worked, and founded the company in CA.
  - Merrill 7y ago
    According to Pitchbook https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/149415-13 https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/149415-13 >Primary Office 16/F, No. 127 Guodao Road, Yangpu District, Shanghai China musical.ly appears to have always had its head office in Shanghai until the acquisition. The fact that it also had significant operations in California doesn't make it a US company. Only those operations are subject to US law and would have to be divested due to disapproval by CFIUS.
ryanmarsh 7y ago
The censorship argument against TikTok seems odd given that Trump supporters are a prominent voice on the platform (I'm a huge TikTok user). Wouldn't its Chinese masters want to silence support for him as well? Why haven't they? To be clear, I don't like the idea of foreign state controlled major social platforms opaque to US oversight. I'm commenting specifically on the argument that TikTok silences Hong Kong supporters.
- justinzollars 7y ago
  > Trump supporters are a prominent voice on the platform Not necessarily, the algorithm shows you things you are interested in. I see China, Golden Retrievers and various songs I like. You see Trump because your eyeballs got locked on the screen. So you will see more Trump.
  - ryanmarsh 7y ago
    Their algo is weird. I’ve noticed if I watch something more than once my feed will be all about that thing.
- saturdaysaint 7y ago
  Autocratic states around the world are quietly thrilled to see an isolationist, flailing wannabe tyrant in the White House.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't take HN threads into partisan flamewar. Would you please review the site guidelines and stick to them when posting to HN? You broke several of them here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
justinzollars 7y ago
TikTok is actually a great app. When I was a kid in the 00's my friends and I used to carry around a video camera to make music videos. With TikTok you can do it with your cell phone. They beat SnapChat, FB and Instagram on experience. Censorship is something serious to consider, but these are mainly kids making music videos. They aren't using it to organize campaigns.
- inetknght 7y ago
  > these are mainly kids making music videos. They aren't using it to organize campaigns. I think that's a dangerously naive interpretation of the platform (or any platform really), particularly when it involves children and young adult minds.
  - backtoyoujim 7y ago
    Go on. https://bookandfilmglobe.com/education/youtube-kids-videos-a-gallery-of-creepy/ https://bookandfilmglobe.com/education/youtube-kids-videos-a...
  - sol_remmy2 7y ago
    Have you seen the weird articles on Snapchat Discover? "Why I'm never taking my mom to an x-rated convention again" "How my kitten play fetish makes me feel less alone" "Why I've been dressing like a horse for twenty years" If I had a teenage daughter, I'd feel much more comfortable with her using the Chinese tik-tok than whatever tabloid-level trash Snapchat is pushing these days. Some of these American media companies have just gotten weird
    - sjg007 7y ago
      Shock factor click bait could be the reason if I were to guess.
    - homonculus1 7y ago
      I think you're too worried about that. I saw plenty of weird fetish shit on forums in my teens and I think I turned out okay, plus a preparedness to accept the breadth of weirdness in humanity. The main thing you should care about is teaching your daughter to recognize clickbait and worthless content.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
Shouldn't this issue be addressed by the free market rather than by the government getting involved? If there is evidence that the app censors content to serve CCP propaganda, then consumers can make the choice not to use it.
- ng12 7y ago
  The market is no longer free when China is involved. They'll gobble American market share (and use that market share to further their political goals) while completely blocking out American companies from the Chinese market. Nobody would care if TikTok were Taiwanese or South Korean.
- crematoria 7y ago
  The free market is usually predicated on rational actors. I don't think the target market of teenagers fits the bill, nor does any market, really, once propaganda enters the picture.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Markets work best when there is transparency: for instance adding MPG to car labels helps "the market" make good choices by informing customers at the point of sale. The law which dictates an MPG sticker is "the government getting involved". Another example: trademarks allow superior brands to win over time. The enforcement of trademarks is "the government getting involved".
ifthenelseend 7y ago
Never trust American government, everything they say is ALWAYS a lie: - They lied about national security threat from Huawei in order to get a trade deal. Trump said USA will remove all the sanctions on Huawei if china agree to cooperate on the trade deal. So, there is no threat at all. - They lied about the chemical weapons in Iraq to start the war. - They lied to Gaddafi and after he agreed to disarm Libya and destroy all weapons of mass destruction, he was killed. - They promised to remove all sanctions on Iran, if they stop their nuclear program. Iran did it. After the program was stopped and all parties confirmed that Iran fully comply with all the requirements of the agreement, USA introduced new sanctions against Iran... ...
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into political or national flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Ar-Curunir 7y ago
While I agree that Chinese soft imperialism is bad, I think it's tremendously funny that Americans are complaining about it now, after years of using military and economic power to enforce a similar imperialism everywhere.
- ryanhuff 7y ago
  Americans beginning to complain that the Chinese government is influencing American's free speech at home due to the financial entanglements made freely by American companies. In essence, US companies economic interests are impacting US citizen free speech.
- chadmeister 7y ago
  Great point! Now I we don't have to worry about it. Move along everyone, nothing to see here!
  - LudwigNagasena 7y ago
    I don’t see the parent comment suggesting that you don’t have to worry about it.
    - throwaway2048 7y ago
      Then what exactly is the purpose of the comment? It's plainly being used as justification and deflection, like all whataboutery.
      - LudwigNagasena 7y ago
        To express the feelings of non-Americans that find it funny how Americans didn’t care about other countries when the US did the same thing to them as China is doing to the US now.
  - draw_down 7y ago
    It's only bad when other countries do it.
xmly 7y ago
It is not about censorship. It is about WHO censor WHO.
- guuguuguu 7y ago
  Everyone just stop using other ppl's app. If you need a app you need to code it yourself.
turbo_fart_box 7y ago
There are entire sub-genres of lesbians, trans, gays, and all sorts of LGBT people on TikTok. I don't see a ban on the platform
- outuiorew 7y ago
  It was only in Turkey, since TikTok has to follow local laws.
undefined3840 7y ago
Twitter really screwed up by shutting down Vine. What a crazy thing to think that by doing so they may have generated a national security issue? Wild.
quaquaqua1 7y ago
I am an American-born man of Western European descent. My girlfriend is a Chinese passport holder here on H1B. I am an anarchist. I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. Literally everything has flaws, and Western Europe and USA have plenty of them. If you are not willing to say "China does xyz but actually also my country does something similar to xyz too, and it's definitely bad"... ...then at the very least, please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals are 100% true for every individual. Humans are humans, they differ in meaningful ways but they also deserve dignity and respect.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. > please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals I think it's misleading to bring up the Chinese people in this way: the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. The real or imagined influence of the CCP over Chinese companies is causing the latter to be viewed with greater suspicion. The Chinese people/Chinese nationals as a group aren't being viewed as antagonists (though unfortunate abbreviations like using "the Chinese" for "the Chinese government" do confuse things sometimes). If anything, I'd bet most people who are critical of the CPP, etc. would see the Chinese people sympathetically as closer to victims than anything else.
  - quaquaqua1 7y ago
    I agree that the Chinese people are victims of their government. Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place.
    - aianus 7y ago
      > we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps If someone punches you (bans your apps, bans your companies from operating and acquiring companies in their country) and you then punch them back (ban their companies from acquiring companies in your country) you are not the same as them. The order matters and they started it.
lol768 7y ago
For context: title appears to have changed from "U.S. opens national security investigation into TikTok" to "U.S. opens a national security review of ByteDance’s acquisition of Musical.ly".
Slartie 7y ago
So a president who basically hands victory after victory to foreign governments and who effectively reduced the toolbox of the United States to shape foreign relations to "sanctions" and "tariffs" is not considered a threat to national security. Everything's fine with that. But if just one foreign social network app manages to divert some serious attention of US teenagers from Facebook for the first time in Internet history, THAT of course is a threat to national security. Seriously...is this a parody?
- stetrain 7y ago
  I mean, there's basically one primary mechanism by which the president's actions can be challenged (other than lawsuit on constitutionality), and that mechanism is currently in progress in the House of Representatives. I'm not sure I'd call that "Everything's fine"
  - Slartie 7y ago
    At the moment there is definitely a majority of people sitting in the Senate who would put their signature under an "everything is fine". My hope is that this changes, but the chances are limited, if at all existent, so: yes, by all accounts I currently have to assume the powers in charge consider everything to be fine.
nezzor 7y ago
Why was the title changed from “tiktok” to musical.ly?
nullc 7y ago
So HN changed the headline to remove TikTok which is a name I reconized and replaced it with "ByteDance" and "Musical.ly", which I've never heard of before. It was originally displayed on HN the same as it is in the article. From the article, I know that the new headline is more precise. But it's much less informative, I wouldn't have clicked the article under this name.
- radcon 7y ago
  They also edited a headline for a #1 ranked story about Blizzard and the Hong Kong issue, removing Hong Kong from the headline entirely. HN sort of reminds me of China -- a dictatorship with zero transparency and a penchant for manipulation. Edit: Can't forget the spineless bootlickers who are hopelessly devoted to the state! You know you've struck a nerve when the best 'reply' they can offer is a silent downvote.
  - GetOutOfBed 7y ago
    With China you know who is in charge. With Hackernews it is a bit more opaque.
    - dang 7y ago
      I'm in charge of Hacker News. What would you like to know?
  - Karunamon 7y ago
    That's assuming an awful lot of unncessary bad faith. While the title guidelines are enforced here in an incredibly nonintuitive, nonobjective, nonconsistent way, that's no reason to imply malfeasance.
    - dang 7y ago
      Thanks for the defense, but I feel a need to pipe up for HN moderators also. It's not true that the title guideline is enforced as you say. If it were, the threads would be full of complaints about titles, when in fact such complaints are an order of magnitude less common than they were, say, 5 years ago. This subthread is an exception, and you'll notice that we've attempted to accommodate the complaints by editing the title again. We have spent years calibrating how we handle titles and it's one of the most consistent things we do. I know it can be nonintuitive to casual readers at times, but that's because applying that guideline is surprisingly complicated in practice. If it were your job, you'd soon find that as well. Also, people only notice the cases that stand out, which tend to be the edits they dislike and feel we got wrong (which maybe we did). That's a sample bias. Probably less than 5% of title edits even get noticed. Maybe even less than 1%. We're always happy to answer questions about it, as well as to change titles in response to user feedback, which we do regularly: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20ok%20above&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....
sjg007 7y ago
Time for some savvy US entrepreneurs to spin up a TikTok alternative..
- anewaccountaday 7y ago
  would anyone use it though? Isn't this the same as launching a instagram clone a couple of years ago. It's not a challenge to build but your a clone and presumably don't have the clout to get teens to even see it let alone use it.
  - sjg007 7y ago
    You'd probably need some compelling functionality.. maybe filter fx or something. But if TikTok is banned in the US then you might have a fighting chance.
will_pseudonym 7y ago
Bring back Vine, Twitter! Why was it shuttered? It seemed like such a short-sighted move. Vine had such cachet and was fun to use & create on it. RIP
codedokode 7y ago
> They said they were concerned ... whether China censors content seen by U.S. users. They also suggested TikTok could be targeted by foreign influence campaigns. That reminds me of Soviet Union. Government choosing what kind of propaganda citizens should watch. > He cited questions about why TikTok had “only had a few videos of the Hong Kong protests that have been dominating international headlines for months.” Does politburo^W democratic government has a right to decide that a privately owned app must show Honkong protest videos? If yes, then what is the minimum quota of Honkong protest videos the app needs to meet? Should other apps, like dating or chess apps, show Honkong protest videos too? > The company has said U.S. user data is stored in the United States They should not. The data are better protected from such US senators if stored in China. > Any platform owned by a company in China which collects massive amounts of data on Americans is a potential serious threat to our country And what about US companies collecting data on foreign citizens? > Chinese company may be censoring politically sensitive content Some might call it moderation.
wslh 7y ago
It is crystal clear that TikTok is a pivot for China. I think this is the first Chinese application that beats the US (Silicon Valley) "monopoly"? It is a great business and cross cultural achievement. It seems like the Chinese could be successful in duplicating SV even in a non democratic context.
- origami777 7y ago
  These types of applications come and go. That a Chinese company made a popular one shouldn't be shocking or indicate some major breakthrough.
  - specialist 7y ago
    Sure. And I'll remain just as guarded (nervous) by the next fad social app underwritten, coopted by a government.
  - wslh 7y ago
    You can say the same of FB, Instagram, etc but coming to the "top top" is not an easy task and give you leverage for launching the next app. But you missed my other observation: it was difficult for Chinese companies to launch western attractive apps, you can take TikTok as an outlier or lucky app or you can be alert of the things that might come next.

393 points by situational87 7y ago

After the US claimed that Huawei was a national security threat only to drop this claim completely when China started cooperating on trade talks I honestly don't know what to believe anymore.

inetknght 7y ago
China started cooperating on trade talks?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
oogali 7y ago
I'm not sure what you're referring to in reference to "drop this claim completely". FCC is actively pursuing removal of Huawei and ZTE equipment under a threat to national security. https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/28/fcc-rules-huawei-zte/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/28/fcc-rules-huawei-zte/
- josefresco 7y ago
  > I'm not sure what you're referring to in reference to "drop this claim completely". Probably in reference to this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/business/dealbook/huawei-5g-national-security-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/business/dealbook/huawei-...
  - airstrike 7y ago
    That was a really good read. Thanks for sharing
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
lotsofpulp 7y ago
> I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. Business is business.
thefounder 7y ago
The point is that any foreign company becomes a national security threat if it's big enough and it threats the domestic player. It's really all about power(economic and technological).
avocado4 7y ago
You're making up facts. US is actively restricting Huawei from doing business with them.

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

YouTube: That's a nice video streaming business you got there TikTok. A shame if anything ever happened to it.

DiabloD3 7y ago
Honestly, I think it's more "You know what happens when you piss off the US gov, Youtube?" (Gov shoots TikTok, to make an example) "That's what. Now get back to work." Youtube has done a lot of stupid things lately that really do feel like it is an external political agenda being forced on them, not an internal one being forced by misguided placation of shareholders.
- cblades 7y ago
  Could you expand on some of the things youtube has done that you believe might be the result of external political pressure?
  - drharby 7y ago
    YT has been known to remove selfrepair videos or demonization of said videos.
    - root_axis 7y ago
      Huh? Since when? This sounds really odd to me because my dad is obsessed with DIY and self-repair videos on YouTube and has never had a problem finding tons of such content to watch daily.
    - duxup 7y ago
      Does that sound like a political pressure thing or just the usual "company complaints / files bs reports and YT complies"? I'm not at all convinced there is any large scale love for YouTube as far as US policy goes.
      - drharby 7y ago

AWildC182 7y ago

Does anyone have any insight into their revenue model? How are they succeeding where Vine failed or are they still just riding investor capital?

taobility 7y ago
It's similar like Instagram. In your video feed, it would mix some promoted videos.
judge2020 7y ago
They're trying to make them more interactive with things like "challenges" and making them look like regular [usually funny] videos. It's still super easy to skip by them.
Consultant32452 7y ago
Profitability is not required if you are an intelligence asset for the state. In this case, the state is China. Maybe it's legitimately profitable, maybe the Chinese govt is purchasing ads with other companies it owns, maybe the books are entirely cooked. It's hard to tell in China.
- avocado4 7y ago
  You're being downvoted but state subsidies are one of the largest concerns US/EU have with China, so it's a valid point. Not to say that TikTok doesn't have any revenue at all, they have ads.
  - gman83 7y ago
    I've seen maybe 3 ads in using TikTok for 6 months every day.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

NN88 7y ago

FaceApp redux? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/18/heres-what-we-know-about-russian-company-behind-faceapp/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/18/heres-w...

feelthepress 7y ago

Oct 14: "TikTok has moved into Facebook’s backyard and is starting to poach its employees" https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/tiktok-has-mountain-view-office-near-facebook-poaching-employees.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/tiktok-has-mountain-view-off...

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
If they're highering engineers at "20% above Facebook compensation", it really doesn't make sense. In china they could higher roughly 15 top engineers for the price of 1 engineer in the bay area (in China there's an even bigger surplus of engineering talent).
- chrisjc 7y ago
  Makes perfect sense. Poaching FB's (or any competition for that matter) employees potentially makes them easier to compete with and increases the cost for FB to compete.
- logicchains 7y ago
  That's simply not true. A top engineer in China costs at least $100k, no way Facebook is paying its engineers ~$1.5 million. ByteDance is famous for paying high salaries: https://crm.org/articles/3-million-pay-packages-how-a-chinese-startup-is-attracting-top-talent https://crm.org/articles/3-million-pay-packages-how-a-chines....

bredren 7y ago

It was clear to me how threatened Facebook was by TikTok when I brought it up with an employee in June. They kept mentioning infinite scroll, and that everyone was supposed to be thinking about how to incorporate that into product. After zuck discussed TikTok directly recently, I’m not surprised google and fb lobbyists would press for this investigation. One question I have, is the real-time interests of millions of 16-24 yo Americans reported back to the Chinese government a national security concern?

paxys 7y ago
16-24 yo (and even younger) American kids/youth being exposed to Chinese propoganda and censorship is most definitely a national security concern.
- tbyehl 7y ago
  Yes, Americans should only be exposed to American Corporate-sanctioned propaganda.
  - ShteiLoups 7y ago
    Hey, at least americans can vote on that propoganda.
    - hnuser77 7y ago
      They can not. Media ownership and media content, even NPR, is not tied to electoral representation.
    - ahoy 7y ago
      I didn't realize we were all on facebook's board of directors.
- rchaud 7y ago
  Nothing is stopping Americans from placing their own propaganda via paid ads or pro-US videos. As long as you're not stupid and push obvious points re: HK, that will immediately come to the attention of censors, you can go far.

nknealk 7y ago

I highly recommend folks listen to recent episodes of Ben Thompson’s exponent podcast where he discusses TikTok and its influence in the USA. He makes the point that US consumers become subject to Chinese censorship policies when using the platform while China outright bans or heavily restricts American companies from operating (eg google search, Facebook).

duxup 7y ago
I wonder too if say you tried to advertise on TikTok but your company was not complying with Chinese censorship requests, or you employed an outspoken advocate, or you employed some folks who posted something about Uyghurs on social media elsewhere ... what would TikTok's response be?
stevenhubertron 7y ago
I tried to find it but failed. Do you happen to remember the date it aired?
- storf45 7y ago
  Episode 175
- garren 7y ago
  Based on references to TikTok here, https://stratechery.com/ https://stratechery.com/ it looks like it’s ep176 https://exponent.fm/episode-176-the-second-estate-era/ https://exponent.fm/episode-176-the-second-estate-era/
bamboozled 7y ago
What’s the point here though? America et al also don’t like certain things being published on social media and try stop it from existing on those platforms too.
- servercobra 7y ago
  Do you have an example? The only things I can think of are illegal (like child porn) which everyone should be able to agree should be banned.

CydeWeys 7y ago

I'll never understand why (a) Vine was shut down, and (b) So many Americans are eager to rush out and use a Chinese social network. I suspect (b) can be explained primarily through ignorance.

FussyZeus 7y ago
The globe increasingly feels so connected as to make people not question where things like social networks reside. In the mind of average people, until they have a political axe to grind, the Nation is all but obsolete. The only time the idea has any sticking power is when people are concerned about jobs. Other than that, nobody seems to care all that much.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  It's not about a "political axe", its about being adversely affected by the policies of that nation. Unless other nations began to intrude on their daily life people don't care what those nations do so they may as well not exist. Part of why China has been in the minds of (some) Americans lately is its becoming obvious they are trying to apply their censorious nature to US citizens on US soil, sometimes using US companies. And, yeah, I'm well aware that the US does similar things to other countries. And some people in other countries on this site complain about that too. It doesn't mean they're just grinding some political axe though. Do you think people in Hong Kong and Taiwan feel like nations are "all but obsolete"? South/North Korea? Tibet? Crimea? This idea of nations being obsolete feels like a fairly privileged position.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Oh yes it’s absolutely privileged. Doesn’t make it less true. The GP asked why Americans were so ready to use a Chinese social network. My answer is they don’t care because they don’t think of it as overtly Chinese, and those that do don’t really care unless they have a reason to.
ninth_ant 7y ago
Despite the initial hype, Vine was super niche and stopped growing. After it was bought, it seems the new owners didn’t have the foresight or patience to evolve the product into something with more mainstream appeal.

crb002 7y ago

Those Facebook lobbyists paid off.

justinzollars 7y ago
That was my thought on this matter.

nostromo 7y ago

I would support a wholesale ban on Chinese acquisitions of American companies until American companies are allowed to acquire Chinese companies (or otherwise operate in China). These ridiculous double standards from China are not free trade, and we should stop pretending it is.

president 7y ago
Most people probably realize it. What we need is for the American CEOs, financial elite, members of government that have investments in China to invest in their own country rather than in a lop-sided trade economy that doesn't allow free flow of money back to the US.
- influx 7y ago
  This is an area where both the right and left can find agreement.
  - hokumguru 7y ago
    I certainly hope so, it seems everyone in our leadership nowadays is too busy squabbling rather than focus on actually important issues.
  - RIMR 7y ago
    That's hilarious! You think the American right would be pro-regulation...
  - eanzenberg 7y ago
    Doesn't 1 side support globalism politically though?
    - hitpointdrew 7y ago
      Don't you mean 2 sides? Both parties have gone off the globalist cliff.

RedComet 7y ago

US companies (Twitter, Facebook, Google) censor people all the time.

mrtksn 7y ago
After all the political stuff going on, every country began seeing foreign communication companies as a national security threat. Russia and China were early on this but EU is also tightening the grip. We had a good go but since the politicians got involved I expect the internet to become separated into regional islands of regulations. Facebook probably had a dream of becoming a global political influence broker and sell mandate to the highest bidder but I think the people who control the guys with the guns are not especially thrilled to play this game.
- kart23 7y ago
  I dont know, I really fear a world where the US blocks all chinese social media, and china blocks all US social media, in the name of 'national security'.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    That would be unfortunate, but it's not nearly as bad as the effects we'll see if the trend of information warfare against civilians continues. I've come to expect falsehoods on the internet for political or commercial gain -- but I find the recent trend of using propaganda to spark hatred, outrage, and panic, to be particularly disturbing.
kube-system 7y ago
This is about more than simply censorship, the broader concern is social manipulation at the hand of foreign governments. And likewise, those US companies have also drawn similar regulatory attention.

dade_ 7y ago

TikTok is actually a great app. Content is very entertaining and it is actually easy to use. I still can't figure out Snapchat. Today it is just a way for me to burn 15 minutes, but I see plenty of potential and make the concerns of censorship and ownership valid concerns.

rygh 7y ago
And jumping bytes is a great company yet they have no choice but to get political and enforce censorship that bans lgbt contents.

drgoodvibe 7y ago

China now flexing its soft power...

spectramax 7y ago
You can't flex "soft power" when all you have is monetary grip of the situation (investments). Where is tactful diplomacy, cooperation and building mutual rapport when dealing with China?
- SkyMarshal 7y ago
  Soft power is all about money. All the rest you mention is useless without it.

objektif 7y ago

There is a massive push to make TikTok a thing. But it is the most stupid app I have ever seen. So they might as well stop pushing the fake videos online.

justinzollars 7y ago
This app is amazing. Its growing like crazy.

rygh 7y ago

I know this a long time ago, they ban lgbt content and I never download the app on my phone. Chinese business is controlled by the state.

colorincorrect 7y ago

unrelated question: but why would any investigator leak information like this? who benefits?

buboard 7y ago
i suppose there are trade deal talks going on between us and china?

yorwba 7y ago

The article conveniently forgets to mention that Musical.ly was founded by Chinese founders and headquartered in Shanghai. Maybe they technically were an American company, but it's not clear the outcome would have been much different from a "national security" perspective.

adventured 7y ago
That doesn't matter at all. The US controls its domestic market - just as China controls their domestic market - and when it comes to going back and reviewing the TikTok / Musical.ly combination it can dictate terms across the app stores which are all US controlled. The US can say: we're going to ban your combined entity from all global app stores by forcing Google and Apple to comply with our position on that merged entity (TikTok + Musical.ly). Google and Apple resist? Say hello to national security based sanctions. They will immediately comply, no more questions asked. The US can instantly, globally kill TikTok, for all intents and purposes. TikTok would disappear from most global app store availability within a week, from Canada to Australia. It would probably only exist in China. It's unfair? Tell Qualcomm - NXP that. That was blocked solely out of spite by China. This is an economic conflict with China. When China lets US Internet companies have proper, full access to their market maybe the US will relent and start playing 'fair.'
- yorwba 7y ago
  Yes, the US government has the power to block mergers. However, consider the hypothetical scenario where Musical.ly rejects TikTok's offer and competes them out of the US market, growing to the same size as TikTok is today. In that case, there would be no merger to block, but the national security implications would remain the same. What would the US government do then? Put them on a blacklist like Huawei?
  - zachguo 7y ago
    It will be forced to sell to US entities, like Alstom and Samsung.

Merrill 7y ago

Musical.ly was started by entrepreneurs in Shanghai. Although it may have had US and Japanese investors, I don't think it was an American company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly >"It’s the first company to be headquartered in China, designed in China, but popular in the US," said Greylock investor Josh Elman. "Finally we’re seeing talented people who live in that ecosystem in that world and actually transcend it and build products in the US." https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-musically-2016-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-musically-2016-5

sgustard 7y ago
Well the Reuters article says it's a US company, as does https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/musical-ly https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/musical-ly.
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  It might have US based personnel/assets that are incorporated in the US but wholly owned by a foreign company
- huac 7y ago
  the US government says it's a US company, so...
mgraczyk 7y ago
I've heard this myth that musical.ly was founded in China before, but it's hard to believe if you look at some basic facts. One cofounder worked full time at SAP in SF bay area for several years before and after musical.ly was founded. The other says on his LinkedIn that he was working in Santa Monica for several years on either side of the founding. They lived, worked, and founded the company in CA.
- Merrill 7y ago
  According to Pitchbook https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/149415-13 https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/149415-13 >Primary Office 16/F, No. 127 Guodao Road, Yangpu District, Shanghai China musical.ly appears to have always had its head office in Shanghai until the acquisition. The fact that it also had significant operations in California doesn't make it a US company. Only those operations are subject to US law and would have to be divested due to disapproval by CFIUS.

ryanmarsh 7y ago

The censorship argument against TikTok seems odd given that Trump supporters are a prominent voice on the platform (I'm a huge TikTok user). Wouldn't its Chinese masters want to silence support for him as well? Why haven't they? To be clear, I don't like the idea of foreign state controlled major social platforms opaque to US oversight. I'm commenting specifically on the argument that TikTok silences Hong Kong supporters.

justinzollars 7y ago
> Trump supporters are a prominent voice on the platform Not necessarily, the algorithm shows you things you are interested in. I see China, Golden Retrievers and various songs I like. You see Trump because your eyeballs got locked on the screen. So you will see more Trump.
- ryanmarsh 7y ago
  Their algo is weird. I’ve noticed if I watch something more than once my feed will be all about that thing.
saturdaysaint 7y ago
Autocratic states around the world are quietly thrilled to see an isolationist, flailing wannabe tyrant in the White House.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into partisan flamewar. Would you please review the site guidelines and stick to them when posting to HN? You broke several of them here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

justinzollars 7y ago

TikTok is actually a great app. When I was a kid in the 00's my friends and I used to carry around a video camera to make music videos. With TikTok you can do it with your cell phone. They beat SnapChat, FB and Instagram on experience. Censorship is something serious to consider, but these are mainly kids making music videos. They aren't using it to organize campaigns.

inetknght 7y ago
> these are mainly kids making music videos. They aren't using it to organize campaigns. I think that's a dangerously naive interpretation of the platform (or any platform really), particularly when it involves children and young adult minds.
- backtoyoujim 7y ago
  Go on. https://bookandfilmglobe.com/education/youtube-kids-videos-a-gallery-of-creepy/ https://bookandfilmglobe.com/education/youtube-kids-videos-a...
- sol_remmy2 7y ago
  Have you seen the weird articles on Snapchat Discover? "Why I'm never taking my mom to an x-rated convention again" "How my kitten play fetish makes me feel less alone" "Why I've been dressing like a horse for twenty years" If I had a teenage daughter, I'd feel much more comfortable with her using the Chinese tik-tok than whatever tabloid-level trash Snapchat is pushing these days. Some of these American media companies have just gotten weird
  - sjg007 7y ago
    Shock factor click bait could be the reason if I were to guess.
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    I think you're too worried about that. I saw plenty of weird fetish shit on forums in my teens and I think I turned out okay, plus a preparedness to accept the breadth of weirdness in humanity. The main thing you should care about is teaching your daughter to recognize clickbait and worthless content.

morpheuskafka 7y ago

Shouldn't this issue be addressed by the free market rather than by the government getting involved? If there is evidence that the app censors content to serve CCP propaganda, then consumers can make the choice not to use it.

ng12 7y ago
The market is no longer free when China is involved. They'll gobble American market share (and use that market share to further their political goals) while completely blocking out American companies from the Chinese market. Nobody would care if TikTok were Taiwanese or South Korean.
crematoria 7y ago
The free market is usually predicated on rational actors. I don't think the target market of teenagers fits the bill, nor does any market, really, once propaganda enters the picture.
chillacy 7y ago
Markets work best when there is transparency: for instance adding MPG to car labels helps "the market" make good choices by informing customers at the point of sale. The law which dictates an MPG sticker is "the government getting involved". Another example: trademarks allow superior brands to win over time. The enforcement of trademarks is "the government getting involved".

ifthenelseend 7y ago

Never trust American government, everything they say is ALWAYS a lie: - They lied about national security threat from Huawei in order to get a trade deal. Trump said USA will remove all the sanctions on Huawei if china agree to cooperate on the trade deal. So, there is no threat at all. - They lied about the chemical weapons in Iraq to start the war. - They lied to Gaddafi and after he agreed to disarm Libya and destroy all weapons of mass destruction, he was killed. - They promised to remove all sanctions on Iran, if they stop their nuclear program. Iran did it. After the program was stopped and all parties confirmed that Iran fully comply with all the requirements of the agreement, USA introduced new sanctions against Iran... ...

dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into political or national flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Ar-Curunir 7y ago

While I agree that Chinese soft imperialism is bad, I think it's tremendously funny that Americans are complaining about it now, after years of using military and economic power to enforce a similar imperialism everywhere.

ryanhuff 7y ago
Americans beginning to complain that the Chinese government is influencing American's free speech at home due to the financial entanglements made freely by American companies. In essence, US companies economic interests are impacting US citizen free speech.
chadmeister 7y ago
Great point! Now I we don't have to worry about it. Move along everyone, nothing to see here!
- LudwigNagasena 7y ago
  I don’t see the parent comment suggesting that you don’t have to worry about it.
  - throwaway2048 7y ago
    Then what exactly is the purpose of the comment? It's plainly being used as justification and deflection, like all whataboutery.
    - LudwigNagasena 7y ago
      To express the feelings of non-Americans that find it funny how Americans didn’t care about other countries when the US did the same thing to them as China is doing to the US now.
- draw_down 7y ago
  It's only bad when other countries do it.

xmly 7y ago

It is not about censorship. It is about WHO censor WHO.

guuguuguu 7y ago
Everyone just stop using other ppl's app. If you need a app you need to code it yourself.

turbo_fart_box 7y ago

There are entire sub-genres of lesbians, trans, gays, and all sorts of LGBT people on TikTok. I don't see a ban on the platform

outuiorew 7y ago
It was only in Turkey, since TikTok has to follow local laws.

undefined3840 7y ago

Twitter really screwed up by shutting down Vine. What a crazy thing to think that by doing so they may have generated a national security issue? Wild.

quaquaqua1 7y ago

I am an American-born man of Western European descent. My girlfriend is a Chinese passport holder here on H1B. I am an anarchist. I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. Literally everything has flaws, and Western Europe and USA have plenty of them. If you are not willing to say "China does xyz but actually also my country does something similar to xyz too, and it's definitely bad"... ...then at the very least, please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals are 100% true for every individual. Humans are humans, they differ in meaningful ways but they also deserve dignity and respect.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. > please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals I think it's misleading to bring up the Chinese people in this way: the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. The real or imagined influence of the CCP over Chinese companies is causing the latter to be viewed with greater suspicion. The Chinese people/Chinese nationals as a group aren't being viewed as antagonists (though unfortunate abbreviations like using "the Chinese" for "the Chinese government" do confuse things sometimes). If anything, I'd bet most people who are critical of the CPP, etc. would see the Chinese people sympathetically as closer to victims than anything else.
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  I agree that the Chinese people are victims of their government. Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place.
  - aianus 7y ago
    > we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps If someone punches you (bans your apps, bans your companies from operating and acquiring companies in their country) and you then punch them back (ban their companies from acquiring companies in your country) you are not the same as them. The order matters and they started it.

lol768 7y ago

For context: title appears to have changed from "U.S. opens national security investigation into TikTok" to "U.S. opens a national security review of ByteDance’s acquisition of Musical.ly".

Slartie 7y ago

So a president who basically hands victory after victory to foreign governments and who effectively reduced the toolbox of the United States to shape foreign relations to "sanctions" and "tariffs" is not considered a threat to national security. Everything's fine with that. But if just one foreign social network app manages to divert some serious attention of US teenagers from Facebook for the first time in Internet history, THAT of course is a threat to national security. Seriously...is this a parody?

stetrain 7y ago
I mean, there's basically one primary mechanism by which the president's actions can be challenged (other than lawsuit on constitutionality), and that mechanism is currently in progress in the House of Representatives. I'm not sure I'd call that "Everything's fine"
- Slartie 7y ago
  At the moment there is definitely a majority of people sitting in the Senate who would put their signature under an "everything is fine". My hope is that this changes, but the chances are limited, if at all existent, so: yes, by all accounts I currently have to assume the powers in charge consider everything to be fine.

nezzor 7y ago

Why was the title changed from “tiktok” to musical.ly?

nullc 7y ago

So HN changed the headline to remove TikTok which is a name I reconized and replaced it with "ByteDance" and "Musical.ly", which I've never heard of before. It was originally displayed on HN the same as it is in the article. From the article, I know that the new headline is more precise. But it's much less informative, I wouldn't have clicked the article under this name.

radcon 7y ago
They also edited a headline for a #1 ranked story about Blizzard and the Hong Kong issue, removing Hong Kong from the headline entirely. HN sort of reminds me of China -- a dictatorship with zero transparency and a penchant for manipulation. Edit: Can't forget the spineless bootlickers who are hopelessly devoted to the state! You know you've struck a nerve when the best 'reply' they can offer is a silent downvote.
- GetOutOfBed 7y ago
  With China you know who is in charge. With Hackernews it is a bit more opaque.
  - dang 7y ago
    I'm in charge of Hacker News. What would you like to know?
- Karunamon 7y ago
  That's assuming an awful lot of unncessary bad faith. While the title guidelines are enforced here in an incredibly nonintuitive, nonobjective, nonconsistent way, that's no reason to imply malfeasance.
  - dang 7y ago
    Thanks for the defense, but I feel a need to pipe up for HN moderators also. It's not true that the title guideline is enforced as you say. If it were, the threads would be full of complaints about titles, when in fact such complaints are an order of magnitude less common than they were, say, 5 years ago. This subthread is an exception, and you'll notice that we've attempted to accommodate the complaints by editing the title again. We have spent years calibrating how we handle titles and it's one of the most consistent things we do. I know it can be nonintuitive to casual readers at times, but that's because applying that guideline is surprisingly complicated in practice. If it were your job, you'd soon find that as well. Also, people only notice the cases that stand out, which tend to be the edits they dislike and feel we got wrong (which maybe we did). That's a sample bias. Probably less than 5% of title edits even get noticed. Maybe even less than 1%. We're always happy to answer questions about it, as well as to change titles in response to user feedback, which we do regularly: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20ok%20above&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

sjg007 7y ago

Time for some savvy US entrepreneurs to spin up a TikTok alternative..

anewaccountaday 7y ago
would anyone use it though? Isn't this the same as launching a instagram clone a couple of years ago. It's not a challenge to build but your a clone and presumably don't have the clout to get teens to even see it let alone use it.
- sjg007 7y ago
  You'd probably need some compelling functionality.. maybe filter fx or something. But if TikTok is banned in the US then you might have a fighting chance.

will_pseudonym 7y ago

Bring back Vine, Twitter! Why was it shuttered? It seemed like such a short-sighted move. Vine had such cachet and was fun to use & create on it. RIP

codedokode 7y ago

> They said they were concerned ... whether China censors content seen by U.S. users. They also suggested TikTok could be targeted by foreign influence campaigns. That reminds me of Soviet Union. Government choosing what kind of propaganda citizens should watch. > He cited questions about why TikTok had “only had a few videos of the Hong Kong protests that have been dominating international headlines for months.” Does politburo^W democratic government has a right to decide that a privately owned app must show Honkong protest videos? If yes, then what is the minimum quota of Honkong protest videos the app needs to meet? Should other apps, like dating or chess apps, show Honkong protest videos too? > The company has said U.S. user data is stored in the United States They should not. The data are better protected from such US senators if stored in China. > Any platform owned by a company in China which collects massive amounts of data on Americans is a potential serious threat to our country And what about US companies collecting data on foreign citizens? > Chinese company may be censoring politically sensitive content Some might call it moderation.

wslh 7y ago

It is crystal clear that TikTok is a pivot for China. I think this is the first Chinese application that beats the US (Silicon Valley) "monopoly"? It is a great business and cross cultural achievement. It seems like the Chinese could be successful in duplicating SV even in a non democratic context.

origami777 7y ago
These types of applications come and go. That a Chinese company made a popular one shouldn't be shocking or indicate some major breakthrough.
- specialist 7y ago
  Sure. And I'll remain just as guarded (nervous) by the next fad social app underwritten, coopted by a government.
- wslh 7y ago
  You can say the same of FB, Instagram, etc but coming to the "top top" is not an easy task and give you leverage for launching the next app. But you missed my other observation: it was difficult for Chinese companies to launch western attractive apps, you can take TikTok as an outlier or lucky app or you can be alert of the things that might come next.