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'Good' and 'bad' in your sentence are subjective. Millions of mainland Chinese Blizzard customers feel differently on the HK issue than you do. You can think

'Good' and 'bad' in your sentence are subjective. Millions of mainland Chinese Blizzard customers feel differently on the HK issue than you do. You can think that they're totally, obviously wrong, but that's politics.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
chme 7y ago
There is a difference between saying 'Freedom for X people' and 'X people are retarded' that has nothing to do with a subjective feeling of 'bad' or 'good'.
- baddox 7y ago
  There’s also a difference between saying “freedom is great” and “violent separatism is great,” even though both phrases could be used by different people to refer to the same situation.
  - chme 7y ago
    And if someone actually calls for violence against someone else, then this would also be a different matter. Saying: "I want people to just get along together" doesn't imply that one group should be murdered for that to happen.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Are you not aware of the violent protests in Hong Kong?
raymond_goo 7y ago
No, it's about (being consistent with one's own) morality.
ahbyb 7y ago
You're arguing this in a Western, liberal website. You're fighting a losing battle. They know what you mean, they simply disagree.
foobiekr 7y ago
Millions of Chinese are wrong on this topic.
- notzuck 7y ago
  Arrogance.
- shrimp_emoji 7y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/ohchNyd.png https://i.imgur.com/ohchNyd.png
mcphage 7y ago
> drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, (https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762 https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762)
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, Gets a bit more complicated when you strip away the drunk modifier.
  - aphextim 7y ago
    I wonder if the number of deaths due to driving is greater than, equal to, or less than people who were saved due to ambulances or doctors driving fast to the ER.
bovermyer 7y ago
"Good" and "bad" in general are subjective. I can subjectively say that Nazis are bad. I can objectively say that Nazi policies had a deleterious effect on Jewish populations. Similarly, I can objectively say that Beijing's policies have a deleterious effect on human rights as defined by the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I can subjectively say that the Chinese government is bad.
- goalieca 7y ago
  And given china voted for the declaration of human rights, they are objectively bad under their own measure.
  - NedIsakoff 7y ago
    People's Republic of China did not vote for the declaration of human rights, the Republic of China did
    - goalieca 7y ago
      Yes.. and your point? The old country didn't vanish so to speak. Things carry forward.
- drdeca 7y ago
  I'm not sure exactly what you mean by subjective. I assert that, for many (though possibly not all) moral questions, that there is a fact of the matter as to whether a thing is good or bad or neither.
  - bovermyer 7y ago
    Here's a definition of subjective for you: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective As to good and bad being subjective, I offer you this: I think the Chinese government is bad. I'd bet that Xi Jinping thinks it's good. Thus, subjective.
zentiggr 7y ago
I think it's instructive to realize that mainland Chinese people are being fed state propaganda about "rioters" destroying HK and demanding independence, thus their opinions should be weighted lesser on the issue accordingly. The sparse examples I've seen of Chinese people actually being exposed to the reality in HK and being surprised, tells me the state media is being effective in its Ministry of Truth role.
- knzhou 7y ago
  Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    As a general rule, if millions of people are upset enough about something to take to the streets and risk being injured or killed by the police, it's a pretty safe bet that something in their government is fucked and in need of fixing.
    - knzhou 7y ago
      If you apply this consistently, you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. (If you do, I respect that, but if you don't, consider why you think some mass anti-government protests are more sympathetic than others.)
      - FussyZeus 7y ago
        Are you asserting Brexit isn't a massive failure of the British Government? They punted a critical and complex problem to the citizenry, and then advertised outright lies as benefits, and even many British people now recognize they were in no position to make a meaningful judgement of that issue and vote on it. I don't know what the yellow vest protest is. Catalonian independence is something I agree with. They've been exploited extremely hard by Spain more or less since they lost their autonomy.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
Sure, it's politics. As for it being subjective, does that matter? Millions of people are also racist and feel racism -- their racism, anyway -- is A-okay. That doesn't make racism somehow less bad, just because it's technically subjective and some people are fine with it. HK protestors are for democracy, which is good. The PRC is opposed to democracy, which is bad.
- knzhou 7y ago
  > HK protestors are for democracy, which is good. The PRC is opposed to democracy, which is bad. Come on, you should know that the ability to distill complicated issues into slogans is orthogonal to truth. "Abortion clinic bombers are for life, which is good. Abortion doctors are opposed to life, which is bad."
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    It's almost like some issues are more complicated and nuanced than others. I don't need to constantly wring my hands about declaring Nazis to be evil asshats, just because they were humans with varying motivations or whatever. More insightful and deeper analysis may be warranted at times, to be sure, but summarizing them as genocidal, evil maniacs isn't wrong in the least.
ekianjo 7y ago
Mainland Chinese customers cannot have a real opinion about anything as they are fed with constant lies and propaganda from a single source of information.
- knzhou 7y ago
  Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?
  - trophycase 7y ago
    I have. Like how their government lies about the air quality index, but when you check the index as generated by any other country's embassy you get a much higher number. How the people are taught that smog and unhealthy air is normal, and are afraid to talk about it if you bring it up. Or how major world events don't hit the papers, and if they do are given massive spin. Or how huge swaths of the internet are blocked. I used to live on an international floor in college, and when one of the Chinese students came here and went to the library, he said he read Chinese history and cried because it was so much different from what he'd be taught.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    Yes. Calling HK protestors 'cockroaches' to dehumanize them is a common refrain, along with calls to 'squash' them. The wumao '50 sent army' is active on twitter, in both Chinese and English.
    - vkou 7y ago
      Check out the recent Catalonia thread on HN, and tell me if mainlander rhetoric differs all that much from that of a couple of the Spanish posters in it. I don't accuse said posters of being members of a 50 peso army. I assume that their (nationalistic) opinions are just that. You should extend these same assumptions to China.
  - notSupplied 7y ago
FussyZeus 7y ago
Allocation of public funds is politics. Tax rates are politics. There are tons of topics that are differing opinions about things, these are politics. The right of LGBTQ people to exist is not politics, that's human rights. The people who support this are good and right, and the people who oppose it are bad and wrong. If you don't want to be bad and wrong, don't hold those beliefs. It's very simple, really.
- trophycase 7y ago
  "Human rights" are guaranteed by the government unfortunately, because with a monopoly on violence they are the only entity legally able to enforce them. Human rights are politics.
- drdeca 7y ago
  The language here of "exist" is, I think, a bit of a rhetorical trick which doesn't argue the actual thing under contention. That's not to say that there aren't good and convincing actual arguments, I just don't think this is one of them.
- notSupplied 7y ago
  Look, I'm on your side on this issue, but to say that LGBTQ lack the right "to exist" is liberal hyperbole that ends up being excellent ammunition for smart pundits like Ben Shapiro to rip apart. We gotta be more precise in our language than that.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    I don't think it's hyperbolic at all. LGBTQ people should be able to exist in our society the same as straight people. Anything short of that is discrimination and should be called out. And I don't give a shit what gives grifters like Ben Shapiro "ammunition." He's proven well versed in turning literally anything into ammunition for his bad faith arguments. People like him do not need to be "beaten," they need to be ignored.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

chme 7y ago

There is a difference between saying 'Freedom for X people' and 'X people are retarded' that has nothing to do with a subjective feeling of 'bad' or 'good'.

baddox 7y ago
There’s also a difference between saying “freedom is great” and “violent separatism is great,” even though both phrases could be used by different people to refer to the same situation.
- chme 7y ago
  And if someone actually calls for violence against someone else, then this would also be a different matter. Saying: "I want people to just get along together" doesn't imply that one group should be murdered for that to happen.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Are you not aware of the violent protests in Hong Kong?

raymond_goo 7y ago

No, it's about (being consistent with one's own) morality.

ahbyb 7y ago

You're arguing this in a Western, liberal website. You're fighting a losing battle. They know what you mean, they simply disagree.

foobiekr 7y ago

Millions of Chinese are wrong on this topic.

notzuck 7y ago
Arrogance.
shrimp_emoji 7y ago
https://i.imgur.com/ohchNyd.png https://i.imgur.com/ohchNyd.png

mcphage 7y ago

> drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, (https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762 https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762)

SkyBelow 7y ago
>driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, Gets a bit more complicated when you strip away the drunk modifier.
- aphextim 7y ago
  I wonder if the number of deaths due to driving is greater than, equal to, or less than people who were saved due to ambulances or doctors driving fast to the ER.

bovermyer 7y ago

"Good" and "bad" in general are subjective. I can subjectively say that Nazis are bad. I can objectively say that Nazi policies had a deleterious effect on Jewish populations. Similarly, I can objectively say that Beijing's policies have a deleterious effect on human rights as defined by the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I can subjectively say that the Chinese government is bad.

goalieca 7y ago
And given china voted for the declaration of human rights, they are objectively bad under their own measure.
- NedIsakoff 7y ago
  People's Republic of China did not vote for the declaration of human rights, the Republic of China did
  - goalieca 7y ago
    Yes.. and your point? The old country didn't vanish so to speak. Things carry forward.
drdeca 7y ago
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by subjective. I assert that, for many (though possibly not all) moral questions, that there is a fact of the matter as to whether a thing is good or bad or neither.
- bovermyer 7y ago
  Here's a definition of subjective for you: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective As to good and bad being subjective, I offer you this: I think the Chinese government is bad. I'd bet that Xi Jinping thinks it's good. Thus, subjective.

zentiggr 7y ago

I think it's instructive to realize that mainland Chinese people are being fed state propaganda about "rioters" destroying HK and demanding independence, thus their opinions should be weighted lesser on the issue accordingly. The sparse examples I've seen of Chinese people actually being exposed to the reality in HK and being surprised, tells me the state media is being effective in its Ministry of Truth role.

knzhou 7y ago
Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  As a general rule, if millions of people are upset enough about something to take to the streets and risk being injured or killed by the police, it's a pretty safe bet that something in their government is fucked and in need of fixing.
  - knzhou 7y ago
    If you apply this consistently, you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. (If you do, I respect that, but if you don't, consider why you think some mass anti-government protests are more sympathetic than others.)
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Are you asserting Brexit isn't a massive failure of the British Government? They punted a critical and complex problem to the citizenry, and then advertised outright lies as benefits, and even many British people now recognize they were in no position to make a meaningful judgement of that issue and vote on it. I don't know what the yellow vest protest is. Catalonian independence is something I agree with. They've been exploited extremely hard by Spain more or less since they lost their autonomy.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

Sure, it's politics. As for it being subjective, does that matter? Millions of people are also racist and feel racism -- their racism, anyway -- is A-okay. That doesn't make racism somehow less bad, just because it's technically subjective and some people are fine with it. HK protestors are for democracy, which is good. The PRC is opposed to democracy, which is bad.

knzhou 7y ago
> HK protestors are for democracy, which is good. The PRC is opposed to democracy, which is bad. Come on, you should know that the ability to distill complicated issues into slogans is orthogonal to truth. "Abortion clinic bombers are for life, which is good. Abortion doctors are opposed to life, which is bad."
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  It's almost like some issues are more complicated and nuanced than others. I don't need to constantly wring my hands about declaring Nazis to be evil asshats, just because they were humans with varying motivations or whatever. More insightful and deeper analysis may be warranted at times, to be sure, but summarizing them as genocidal, evil maniacs isn't wrong in the least.

ekianjo 7y ago

Mainland Chinese customers cannot have a real opinion about anything as they are fed with constant lies and propaganda from a single source of information.

knzhou 7y ago
Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?
- trophycase 7y ago
  I have. Like how their government lies about the air quality index, but when you check the index as generated by any other country's embassy you get a much higher number. How the people are taught that smog and unhealthy air is normal, and are afraid to talk about it if you bring it up. Or how major world events don't hit the papers, and if they do are given massive spin. Or how huge swaths of the internet are blocked. I used to live on an international floor in college, and when one of the Chinese students came here and went to the library, he said he read Chinese history and cried because it was so much different from what he'd be taught.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Yes. Calling HK protestors 'cockroaches' to dehumanize them is a common refrain, along with calls to 'squash' them. The wumao '50 sent army' is active on twitter, in both Chinese and English.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Check out the recent Catalonia thread on HN, and tell me if mainlander rhetoric differs all that much from that of a couple of the Spanish posters in it. I don't accuse said posters of being members of a 50 peso army. I assume that their (nationalistic) opinions are just that. You should extend these same assumptions to China.
- notSupplied 7y ago

FussyZeus 7y ago

Allocation of public funds is politics. Tax rates are politics. There are tons of topics that are differing opinions about things, these are politics. The right of LGBTQ people to exist is not politics, that's human rights. The people who support this are good and right, and the people who oppose it are bad and wrong. If you don't want to be bad and wrong, don't hold those beliefs. It's very simple, really.

trophycase 7y ago
"Human rights" are guaranteed by the government unfortunately, because with a monopoly on violence they are the only entity legally able to enforce them. Human rights are politics.
drdeca 7y ago
The language here of "exist" is, I think, a bit of a rhetorical trick which doesn't argue the actual thing under contention. That's not to say that there aren't good and convincing actual arguments, I just don't think this is one of them.
notSupplied 7y ago
Look, I'm on your side on this issue, but to say that LGBTQ lack the right "to exist" is liberal hyperbole that ends up being excellent ammunition for smart pundits like Ben Shapiro to rip apart. We gotta be more precise in our language than that.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  I don't think it's hyperbolic at all. LGBTQ people should be able to exist in our society the same as straight people. Anything short of that is discrimination and should be called out. And I don't give a shit what gives grifters like Ben Shapiro "ammunition." He's proven well versed in turning literally anything into ammunition for his bad faith arguments. People like him do not need to be "beaten," they need to be ignored.