19 ms·

Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

294 points by ghgr 7y ago

owlninja 7y ago
>digital technology that safely lands the aircraft at the nearest suitable airport in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. How does it know? Also a weird submission to be at the top of HN
- lucideer 7y ago
  > weird submission to be at the top of HN Seems like the usual HN fare. Autonomous control of vehicles is a very common topic here.
  - beerandt 7y ago
    A self-driving car article makes the front page seemingly several times per week, but an article on a self-landing GA plane is weird?
  - maeln 7y ago
    Plane are also a very common topic on HN.
- mjlee 7y ago
  Various cars can tell if you're drowsy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection The plane could sound an alarm for you to check in if it thinks you're not conscious. Edit: More details at https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-10-30/autoland-garmins-newest-safety-feature https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/201... It pretty much works like you'd imagine, with the addition that a passenger could engage it if required.
  - owlninja 7y ago
    Thanks for the link! >In the M600 Autoland application, the system activates at 18,000 feet if the autopilot is engaged and the pilot doesn’t interact with the avionics in a 15-minute period. At higher altitudes, the engagement period is shorter. Autoland also tries to alert the pilot with repeated chiming sounds and asking, “Are you alert” before engaging.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  It needs to be manually invoked by a passenger.
- SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
  > How does it know? Know the nearest airport, or know if the pilot is incapacitated? 1) GPS and 2) it looks like someone in the aircraft has to press a button.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Lack of input. Whether it's a train, a boat or in this case an aeroplane, an aware and capable operator will periodically fiddle with things a little bit, change the heading slightly, tweak engine power a bit, any little change shows you're paying attention still, no need for the machine to intervene. If that doesn't happen for a sustained period, the machine prods them. "Hey are you awake? Let me know you're OK" or moral equivalent. If they still do nothing after a further period, engage emergency systems. On a boat that means summoning the rest of the crew to come see what's wrong on the bridge, on a train it means you just bring the train to a halt and let a remote signaller communicate with anybody else on board, on a plane this system proposes to try landing. Also a passenger can just (be taught how to) activate it.
throw0101a 7y ago
This is a feature of the Garmin G3000: * https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-announces-emergency-autoland/ https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-announces-emergen... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA * https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-10-30/autoland-garmins-newest-safety-feature https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/201... Also Cirrus: * https://cirrusaircraft.com/totalsafety/#safereturn https://cirrusaircraft.com/totalsafety/#safereturn * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0
- campfireveteran 7y ago
  YT urls can be shortened like this: https://youtu.be/d-ruFmgTpqA https://youtu.be/d-ruFmgTpqA ^ I saw this in my feed before this HN article.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    Yes. Or I can just copy-paste what's in my browser's URL bar by pressing <ctrl-l><ctrl-c>. :)
anonu 7y ago
Not to be a philistine about new technology: but somehow I think this would make people in the air and in the ground less safe. It's probably like having a parachute on the plane: just a great marketing sales point.
- cblades 7y ago
  Whole aircraft parachute systems have undoubtedly saved lives. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539144 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539144 There are already plenty of airplanes that have the ability to land themselves under specific conditions. There's no whole-new technology here. Even if it was brand new, I'm not sure how that would be less safe.
- stanski 7y ago
  This is only for emergencies, similar to the parachute system on Cirrus aircraft. I'm sure sooner or later someone somewhere would be very glad to have this.
- Quenty 7y ago
  It’s intended for small aircraft where the pilot might be incapacitated or something. Imagine someone having a heart attack mid flight with their kid onboard or something.
- Stevvo 7y ago
  For parachutes it was only true until Cirrus put out training to encourage people to actually use the parachute. Once pilots were properly trained, the parachutes started saving lives. It was the same story when ejector seats were introduced. The emergency autoland is not intended to be used by the pilot, it is for activation by a passenger in single pilot aircraft when the pilot is incapacitated. So their is almost nothing to train. Pilots just need to add it to the passenger briefing.
- nsxwolf 7y ago
  A Cessna pilot and a Cirrus pilot walk into a bar. Bartender says what will you have. Cessna pilot orders a Jack and Coke. Cirrus pilot pulls his chute.
bmurphy1976 7y ago
Man the headline borderline is incomprehensible. Here's the actual article headline: Piper Announces New M600 SLS. First GA Aircraft to be Standard Equipped with HALO™ Safety System and Autoland Capability I'm assuming GA means generally available?
- reaperducer 7y ago
  GA is General Aviation, I believe. I've been to EAA, but I'm not an airplane person so I could be wrong.
- rwc 7y ago
  General aviation (non-commercial)
- mc32 7y ago
  I think it means General Aviation (civil aircraft).
- heyflyguy 7y ago
  GA = General Aviation
nabla9 7y ago
Garmin Autoland is emergency only autoland. Not to be confused with CAT II/III autoland used in normal operations.
- cj 7y ago
  For anyone else wondering what "emergency only autoland" means: From Wikipedia: "The feature is activated by a guarded red button on Garmin G3000 NX avionics, evaluating winds, weather and fuel reserves to select a suitable diversion airport and taking over the aircraft controls to land, it advises the ATC and displays instructions to occupants." From the Garmin marketing site [1]: "Garmin Autoland. It takes complete control of the flight to land the airplane in an emergency where the pilot is unable to fly1." I'm not exactly sure if this is the correct reference for CAT II/III autoland, but seems like the purpose of CAT II/III autoland is to land and aircraft when the pilot would otherwise have a hard time manually landing due to weather conditions (ie. limited visibility) [2]. But if someone has a more accurate description, please correct me! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland#Emergency_autoland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland#Emergency_autoland [1] https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#ILS_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#ILS_... Edit: Just to clarify the reason for posting this versus just relying on the text in the press release, I was under the impression the announcement was for some fully-automated flight control system (ie. take off and landing without a pilot on board, a la self-driving cars) based on the press release not mentioning why the system would be activated.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    CAT II/III can land with limited visibility. CAT IIIc is interesting because there is no decision height and no runway visual range limitation. Pilots can approach and land completely blind without flying with the stick at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthcuZV8agI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthcuZV8agI Big airports with CAT IIIc can stay open for CAT IIIc available aircraft in all visibility conditions.
    - 7y ago
heyflyguy 7y ago
Pretty neat tech, and an interesting alternate ending from the "pinch hitter" courses being taught by CFIs across the country.
ChicagoBoy11 7y ago
The tech is still interesting, even if similar things that are used even in non-emergency scenarios have existed in large jets for a few decades. The one thing I don't understand is if it always just relies on WAAS and GPS no matter what, or, if depending on the runway it chooses to land, it may use something like an ILS.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  It won't try to do ILS. I think the issue is that where GPS is available it can definitely put that plane down. Maybe it's not the world's greatest landing due to GPS inaccuracy, not right on the centre line, tries to put the gear through the floor - maybe the airframe ends up totalled, but if every passenger on the plane walks away it's a huge success given the pilot was incapacitated. Whereas for ILS that gets you down under clouds in mediocre weather, all lined up properly, but (except in airports with Cat III ILS) it doesn't actually put you on the ground. With a trained pilot in the seat that's not an issue, once they can see the runway they can do the rest, but this is for emergencies. As I mentioned in a previous HN item about ILS, these autoland systems don't get you off the runway. For a grave emergency (pilot dropped dead in flight with their spouse and two kids onboard) that's forgiveable, and this mentions that the product begins broadcasting that the runway chosen is now unusable (because your plane is now parked on it) but this is why Cat IIIc doesn't magically allow JFK to function normally in a blizzard. When the pilots still can't see the runway even after their plane lands on it, that's not useful for routine passenger flights.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > I think the issue is that where GPS is available it can definitely put that plane down. Maybe it's not the world's greatest landing due to GPS inaccuracy, not right on the centre line, ... I wonder how this will change when the L2, L5, and L1C signals start becoming used from the GPS III satellites. Also, in the US, non-GPS/Navstar signals cannot officially be used for anything, though I think Galileo was recently (finally) approved by the FCC: * https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/fcc-approves-use-galileo-us https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/fcc-approves-use-gal... (The issue was something like: once officially approved, the frequencies in questions cannot be used for anything else, and are protected.)
eternalny1 7y ago
This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a commercial pilot and software engineer, and I find this insanely impressive.
- michaelmior 7y ago
  It will be insanely impressive if it actually performs well in those scenarios :)
- nabla9 7y ago
  It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" I think it can land only to those airports that are it's database with landing approaches programmed it. Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time.
  - Daviey 7y ago
    > Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time. I try to make my landings a little less eventful.
    - rhombocombus 7y ago
      I prefer to be subsonic before I let the mains touch down (atleast...)
    - AWildC182 7y ago
      A "good" landing is one which people can walk away from and a "great" landing is one where you can use the cruise missile again so by definition, a cruise missile can complete neither a "good" nor a "great" landing by design.
sansnomme 7y ago
How does it communicate with ground station? Voice recognition and speech synthesis?
- jimktrains2 7y ago
  I have 100% no familiarity, but I'd assume it's not processing voice from the ground. It is probably only announcing that this is an emergency and its intended course of action. I would love to know if that's not true because that would be a huge leap in off-line speech processing and recognition.
- FabHK 7y ago
  It's announce only (though it avoids running over other communication on the frequency).
Stevvo 7y ago
Title is innaccurate, as the m600 is not the first, it will be simultaneously made available accross several different aircraft with Garmin avionics. The system can be also be retrofitted in older aircraft.
- rexaliquid 7y ago
  Aircraft still have to certify the feature, now that it exists. The title is accurate in that the m600 will be the first to certify with Autoland. Other aircraft will follow.
cyberferret 7y ago
Maybe a coincidence, but Cirrus Aircraft announced their SafeReturn Emergency Autoland on their Vision Jet series today as well [0]. Looks pretty impressive. A passenger can just press one button on the roof behind the pilot, and the aircraft will send a distress signal, re-route and autoland the aircraft at the nearest airport (including terrain and weather avoidance) and also convert all screens on board to inform the passengers how to use the radio for comms etc. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0
- rlpb 7y ago
  Not a coicidence: https://www.flyer.co.uk/garmin-launches-autoland-emergency-system/ https://www.flyer.co.uk/garmin-launches-autoland-emergency-s... Looks like Garmin coordinated the announcement.
- kejaed 7y ago
  They are both using the Garmin Autonomi Autoland system.
- ianhawes 7y ago
  FWIW Cirrus also has a Cirrus Airframe Parachute System that is standard in all models.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    The autoland system will even give passengers instructions on how to activate CAPS if there are no airports in range it knows how to land at.
antoineMoPa 7y ago
$2.994M. Guess I'll just ride my bike then.
- Stevvo 7y ago
  They mentioned it can be retrofitted in older aircraft. So it might be an option in the future if you are doing $100k panel upgrade in your 1950s tin can airplane.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    As the plane gets older and less sophisticated it gets harder to put all the pieces of the puzzle together without ripping the whole aircraft to pieces and starting over. Even after touching down, the aircraft this is built for have computer control for the brakes and full rudder authority, so it can do a pretty good approximation of a proper short field landing based on GPS and wheel speed sensors. Do you want to add computer controlled brakes and wheel speed sensors to your tin can? No? Then we have to assume the plan is to just roll to a halt and that cuts our list of viable landing sites and hurts survivability considerably.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mtw 7y ago
Does this aircraft have LIDAR or cameras? Wondering how it works with other air traffic and potential collisions. This is one of the biggest challenges for self-driving cars and I can't see any details about this in the Garmin G3000
- Stevvo 7y ago
  The G3000 has ADBS in/out, and from January 1st ADSB out will be mandatory in the US, so it will know where other traffic is. Additionally, the autoland talks to ATC, and ATC can tell other traffic to get out of the way.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Even without that the chances of two planes colliding is nowhere near what autonomous vehicle are facing. + a lidar wouldn't do much in the air, it can't see very far, that's why we have radars.
- kgilpin 7y ago
  In an emergency, all the other traffic will be cleared out of the way.
heelix 7y ago
Very cool option. The rocket propelled parashoot ^h^h parachute essentially totals the aircraft when used. Even a crash at post touchdown landing speeds is likely easier on those on board. The autopilot features available to GA and experimental aircraft are quite impressive for holding things at a specific ask in various weather conditions. Not uncommon to have the autopilot active when flying in IFR conditions to help with some of the workload. Assuming the plane has GPS, a correct altimeter setting, and airspeed - between the instruments you get a reasonable amount of cross checking for accuracy and enough information to calculate your vector. If you actually fly/land at the speeds recommended, most of the time landing will be pretty uneventful. Many of the tablet/phone based GPS only solutions will give a pretty solid estimation of engine out glide distance too. You (should) pitch for 'best glide' speeds and in combination with the airport data bank with the GPS unit, know where you can get to. I'll push the 'direct to' nearest button and try for it were it in glide range. This sounds like it just connected all the automation dots. A good landing is where everyone leaves the plane safely. A great landing allows the plane to be used again. I suspect this is going for a good landing... which is fantastic news for the passenger.
- dghughes 7y ago
  >...parashoot A typo but that slip created a great brand name for a rocket-propelled parachute the "ParaShoot".
  - heelix 7y ago
    ah god damn it. I was just coming back to make an edit as enough coffee registered the mistake.
jonplackett 7y ago
Question: A private jet is obviously bad for the environment, but how does a propeller plane compare carbon-wise to driving a car the same distance?
- carleverett 7y ago
  Not good. A Cessna 172 cruises at 140 mph and burns 8.5 gph of 100LL fuel, the equivalent of 16.5 mpg, and this is at cruise speed, not accounting for taxi, run-up, and flying the pattern during a normal flight. Not to mention we're still burning lead in most propeller aircraft as well. Fortunately this isn't a very popular way of getting around.
  - jonplackett 7y ago
    It’s interesting that it’s not insanely bad. I assumed it would be maybe 2-10X worse but it’s in a similar ballpark. Would a full on private jet be way worse? Would these planes carry a fair few people than a car? If so what’s it like taking passenger numbers into account? I guess super-rich folk probably would be happy to fly just themselves in a big private jet and also be travelling waaaay further than they ever would in a car so it’s probably a silly comparison anyway
    - asdfadsfgfdda 7y ago
      There's actually a huge range in private planes. This M600 plane does about 7 mpg, 250 knots at 45 gph. A typical light jet might do 400 knots at 125 gph (3 mpg). But a light jet cannot not fly nonstop to a different continent. For these trips, a large business jet might do 450 knots at 300 gph (1.5 mpg), but only the very super rich can actually afford these. Even most celebrities will be flying the airlines for long international trips.
      - jonplackett 7y ago
        Thanks for the calculations! It’s weird how a more advance technology like a jet can be so successful yet an order of magnitude less economical. Usually it’s the reverse. But when you’re rich it’s time that’s money
mothsonasloth 7y ago
Interesting to use the word HALO, seeing as its already used as an acronym in aviation for High Altitude Low Opening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachuting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachu... There is also TALO, which stands for Tactical Air Landing Operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJdISjq8Wg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJdISjq8Wg
- TheRealPomax 7y ago
  Yes, but in a very different context. While both are "aviation", military aviation and commercial aviation are pretty isolated from each other.
code4tee 7y ago
This is impressive. Use case is for an incapacitated pilot. It won’t work well or at all if the aircraft itself is having issues or in other emergency scenarios. As such it doesn’t replace the need for qualified pilots at the controls.
- asdfadsfgfdda 7y ago
  I suspect they are marketing this for incapacitated pilots (an extremely rare situation), but it also seems like an alternative for overwhelmed pilots. They don't want to call their potential customers idiots, but this is another feature to help pilots avoid loss of control. And I definitely see a future version that could handle engine failures. If you can count on auto land to flawlessly glide to the nearest airport, who needs a twin engine airplane? Single engine airplanes are significantly cheaper to operate than twins.
dweekly 7y ago
Cirrus announced their version of this yesterday for their Cirrus Jet, they are calling the feature Safe Return. Also incorporates 7700, TAWS escape, wind check, pax 121.5 simplified radio controls, everything. https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircraft-revolutionizes-passenger-safety-through-autonomous-flight-with-safe-return-emergency-autoland/ https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircraft-revolutionizes-pa...
Robotbeat 7y ago
Sounds like something that, once it becomes perfected, could reduce the required number of pilots on commercial passenger aircraft from 2 to 1 (at least for smaller planes).
caseyf7 7y ago
Why do they cost $3M?
- supernova87a 7y ago
  The labor, insurance, and safety / regulatory certifications required of a low volume production aircraft.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Only about 1000 single-engine piston aircraft are sold every year worldwide, and only about 500 single-engine turboprop. It's a market with higher certification requirements, but much smaller unit volume than boats and cars, so much more certification, R&D, admin cost has to be covered by each unit sold. See eg. https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2019/02/26/2018-world-general-aviation-aircraft-shipments-up-5/ https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2019/02/26/2...
jillesvangurp 7y ago
Sounds very similar to something Austin Meyer (creator of x-plane) implemented a few years ago called Xavion: http://xavion.com/ http://xavion.com/ This is an ipad app that calculates a best glidepath to the best runway and guides you to the runway safely. It's intended for emergency situations when you lose an engine and quickly have to decide on an airport/runway. However, it sort of snowballed into an app with a lot of situational awareness features. But he actually experimented with hooking that up to a plane at some point to create a self landing system: https://www.x-plane.com/2014/07/xavion-brings-a-real-world-airplane-down-to-10-feet-above-the-ground/ https://www.x-plane.com/2014/07/xavion-brings-a-real-world-a.... Not sure if he ever shipped that feature. I imagine there might be some certification hassle :-).
- rexaliquid 7y ago
  Similar, but also kind of the opposite. Xavion is for when you have a functioning pilot, but a malfunctioning plane. Emergency Autoland is for when you have a functioning plane, but not a functioning pilot.
  - jsmith45 7y ago
    Austin Meyer did help on an actual autoland device that was based on the same concept: the VP-400 by Vertical Power. But I'm not sure it ever went anywhere. In theory with that system, you could push the "oh-shit" button if you lose your engine, and it would take over the autopilot to try to automatically fly the calculated path. Of course I don't think it was as fully integrated, so no automatic radio callouts or anything. I'm not sure if the product actually ever became available. HOWEVER: If you have a TruTrak autopilot, and an an iLevil ADS-B receiver, then Xavion has a super experimental "auto" button that will actually control the autopilot, to attempt to automatically fly the calculated course.
briandear 7y ago
And Cirrus announced the same thing. This isn’t type specific but a characteristic of the new Garmin G3000.
tzm 7y ago
Cirrus' Vision Jet also has autolanding called "Safe Return" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0
- rexaliquid 7y ago
  Yes, both are implementing Garmin's new emergency autoland feature.
redis_mlc 7y ago
Not sure what HN is getting all excited about ... the Piper M600 is $3 million, and since Mexico is humid, they've had composite delamination problems ... Or you can just pull the throttle to idle, and trim for Vx, which is the "descend through clouds" emergency procedure.

294 points by ghgr 7y ago

>digital technology that safely lands the aircraft at the nearest suitable airport in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. How does it know? Also a weird submission to be at the top of HN

lucideer 7y ago
> weird submission to be at the top of HN Seems like the usual HN fare. Autonomous control of vehicles is a very common topic here.
- beerandt 7y ago
  A self-driving car article makes the front page seemingly several times per week, but an article on a self-landing GA plane is weird?
- maeln 7y ago
  Plane are also a very common topic on HN.
mjlee 7y ago
Various cars can tell if you're drowsy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection The plane could sound an alarm for you to check in if it thinks you're not conscious. Edit: More details at https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-10-30/autoland-garmins-newest-safety-feature https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/201... It pretty much works like you'd imagine, with the addition that a passenger could engage it if required.
- owlninja 7y ago
  Thanks for the link! >In the M600 Autoland application, the system activates at 18,000 feet if the autopilot is engaged and the pilot doesn’t interact with the avionics in a 15-minute period. At higher altitudes, the engagement period is shorter. Autoland also tries to alert the pilot with repeated chiming sounds and asking, “Are you alert” before engaging.
throw0101a 7y ago
It needs to be manually invoked by a passenger.
SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
> How does it know? Know the nearest airport, or know if the pilot is incapacitated? 1) GPS and 2) it looks like someone in the aircraft has to press a button.
tialaramex 7y ago
Lack of input. Whether it's a train, a boat or in this case an aeroplane, an aware and capable operator will periodically fiddle with things a little bit, change the heading slightly, tweak engine power a bit, any little change shows you're paying attention still, no need for the machine to intervene. If that doesn't happen for a sustained period, the machine prods them. "Hey are you awake? Let me know you're OK" or moral equivalent. If they still do nothing after a further period, engage emergency systems. On a boat that means summoning the rest of the crew to come see what's wrong on the bridge, on a train it means you just bring the train to a halt and let a remote signaller communicate with anybody else on board, on a plane this system proposes to try landing. Also a passenger can just (be taught how to) activate it.

throw0101a 7y ago

This is a feature of the Garmin G3000: * https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-announces-emergency-autoland/ https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-announces-emergen... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA * https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-10-30/autoland-garmins-newest-safety-feature https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/201... Also Cirrus: * https://cirrusaircraft.com/totalsafety/#safereturn https://cirrusaircraft.com/totalsafety/#safereturn * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0

campfireveteran 7y ago
YT urls can be shortened like this: https://youtu.be/d-ruFmgTpqA https://youtu.be/d-ruFmgTpqA ^ I saw this in my feed before this HN article.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  Yes. Or I can just copy-paste what's in my browser's URL bar by pressing <ctrl-l><ctrl-c>. :)

anonu 7y ago

Not to be a philistine about new technology: but somehow I think this would make people in the air and in the ground less safe. It's probably like having a parachute on the plane: just a great marketing sales point.

cblades 7y ago
Whole aircraft parachute systems have undoubtedly saved lives. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539144 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539144 There are already plenty of airplanes that have the ability to land themselves under specific conditions. There's no whole-new technology here. Even if it was brand new, I'm not sure how that would be less safe.
stanski 7y ago
This is only for emergencies, similar to the parachute system on Cirrus aircraft. I'm sure sooner or later someone somewhere would be very glad to have this.
Quenty 7y ago
It’s intended for small aircraft where the pilot might be incapacitated or something. Imagine someone having a heart attack mid flight with their kid onboard or something.
Stevvo 7y ago
For parachutes it was only true until Cirrus put out training to encourage people to actually use the parachute. Once pilots were properly trained, the parachutes started saving lives. It was the same story when ejector seats were introduced. The emergency autoland is not intended to be used by the pilot, it is for activation by a passenger in single pilot aircraft when the pilot is incapacitated. So their is almost nothing to train. Pilots just need to add it to the passenger briefing.
nsxwolf 7y ago
A Cessna pilot and a Cirrus pilot walk into a bar. Bartender says what will you have. Cessna pilot orders a Jack and Coke. Cirrus pilot pulls his chute.

bmurphy1976 7y ago

Man the headline borderline is incomprehensible. Here's the actual article headline: Piper Announces New M600 SLS. First GA Aircraft to be Standard Equipped with HALO™ Safety System and Autoland Capability I'm assuming GA means generally available?

reaperducer 7y ago
GA is General Aviation, I believe. I've been to EAA, but I'm not an airplane person so I could be wrong.
rwc 7y ago
General aviation (non-commercial)
mc32 7y ago
I think it means General Aviation (civil aircraft).
heyflyguy 7y ago
GA = General Aviation

nabla9 7y ago

Garmin Autoland is emergency only autoland. Not to be confused with CAT II/III autoland used in normal operations.

cj 7y ago
For anyone else wondering what "emergency only autoland" means: From Wikipedia: "The feature is activated by a guarded red button on Garmin G3000 NX avionics, evaluating winds, weather and fuel reserves to select a suitable diversion airport and taking over the aircraft controls to land, it advises the ATC and displays instructions to occupants." From the Garmin marketing site [1]: "Garmin Autoland. It takes complete control of the flight to land the airplane in an emergency where the pilot is unable to fly1." I'm not exactly sure if this is the correct reference for CAT II/III autoland, but seems like the purpose of CAT II/III autoland is to land and aircraft when the pilot would otherwise have a hard time manually landing due to weather conditions (ie. limited visibility) [2]. But if someone has a more accurate description, please correct me! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland#Emergency_autoland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland#Emergency_autoland [1] https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#ILS_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#ILS_... Edit: Just to clarify the reason for posting this versus just relying on the text in the press release, I was under the impression the announcement was for some fully-automated flight control system (ie. take off and landing without a pilot on board, a la self-driving cars) based on the press release not mentioning why the system would be activated.
- nabla9 7y ago
  CAT II/III can land with limited visibility. CAT IIIc is interesting because there is no decision height and no runway visual range limitation. Pilots can approach and land completely blind without flying with the stick at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthcuZV8agI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthcuZV8agI Big airports with CAT IIIc can stay open for CAT IIIc available aircraft in all visibility conditions.
  - 7y ago

heyflyguy 7y ago

Pretty neat tech, and an interesting alternate ending from the "pinch hitter" courses being taught by CFIs across the country.

ChicagoBoy11 7y ago

The tech is still interesting, even if similar things that are used even in non-emergency scenarios have existed in large jets for a few decades. The one thing I don't understand is if it always just relies on WAAS and GPS no matter what, or, if depending on the runway it chooses to land, it may use something like an ILS.

tialaramex 7y ago
It won't try to do ILS. I think the issue is that where GPS is available it can definitely put that plane down. Maybe it's not the world's greatest landing due to GPS inaccuracy, not right on the centre line, tries to put the gear through the floor - maybe the airframe ends up totalled, but if every passenger on the plane walks away it's a huge success given the pilot was incapacitated. Whereas for ILS that gets you down under clouds in mediocre weather, all lined up properly, but (except in airports with Cat III ILS) it doesn't actually put you on the ground. With a trained pilot in the seat that's not an issue, once they can see the runway they can do the rest, but this is for emergencies. As I mentioned in a previous HN item about ILS, these autoland systems don't get you off the runway. For a grave emergency (pilot dropped dead in flight with their spouse and two kids onboard) that's forgiveable, and this mentions that the product begins broadcasting that the runway chosen is now unusable (because your plane is now parked on it) but this is why Cat IIIc doesn't magically allow JFK to function normally in a blizzard. When the pilots still can't see the runway even after their plane lands on it, that's not useful for routine passenger flights.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > I think the issue is that where GPS is available it can definitely put that plane down. Maybe it's not the world's greatest landing due to GPS inaccuracy, not right on the centre line, ... I wonder how this will change when the L2, L5, and L1C signals start becoming used from the GPS III satellites. Also, in the US, non-GPS/Navstar signals cannot officially be used for anything, though I think Galileo was recently (finally) approved by the FCC: * https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/fcc-approves-use-galileo-us https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/fcc-approves-use-gal... (The issue was something like: once officially approved, the frequencies in questions cannot be used for anything else, and are protected.)

eternalny1 7y ago

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a commercial pilot and software engineer, and I find this insanely impressive.

michaelmior 7y ago
It will be insanely impressive if it actually performs well in those scenarios :)
nabla9 7y ago
It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" I think it can land only to those airports that are it's database with landing approaches programmed it. Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time.
- Daviey 7y ago
  > Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time. I try to make my landings a little less eventful.
  - rhombocombus 7y ago
    I prefer to be subsonic before I let the mains touch down (atleast...)
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    A "good" landing is one which people can walk away from and a "great" landing is one where you can use the cruise missile again so by definition, a cruise missile can complete neither a "good" nor a "great" landing by design.

sansnomme 7y ago

How does it communicate with ground station? Voice recognition and speech synthesis?

jimktrains2 7y ago
I have 100% no familiarity, but I'd assume it's not processing voice from the ground. It is probably only announcing that this is an emergency and its intended course of action. I would love to know if that's not true because that would be a huge leap in off-line speech processing and recognition.
FabHK 7y ago
It's announce only (though it avoids running over other communication on the frequency).

Stevvo 7y ago

Title is innaccurate, as the m600 is not the first, it will be simultaneously made available accross several different aircraft with Garmin avionics. The system can be also be retrofitted in older aircraft.

rexaliquid 7y ago
Aircraft still have to certify the feature, now that it exists. The title is accurate in that the m600 will be the first to certify with Autoland. Other aircraft will follow.

cyberferret 7y ago

Maybe a coincidence, but Cirrus Aircraft announced their SafeReturn Emergency Autoland on their Vision Jet series today as well [0]. Looks pretty impressive. A passenger can just press one button on the roof behind the pilot, and the aircraft will send a distress signal, re-route and autoland the aircraft at the nearest airport (including terrain and weather avoidance) and also convert all screens on board to inform the passengers how to use the radio for comms etc. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0

rlpb 7y ago
Not a coicidence: https://www.flyer.co.uk/garmin-launches-autoland-emergency-system/ https://www.flyer.co.uk/garmin-launches-autoland-emergency-s... Looks like Garmin coordinated the announcement.
kejaed 7y ago
They are both using the Garmin Autonomi Autoland system.
ianhawes 7y ago
FWIW Cirrus also has a Cirrus Airframe Parachute System that is standard in all models.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  The autoland system will even give passengers instructions on how to activate CAPS if there are no airports in range it knows how to land at.

antoineMoPa 7y ago

$2.994M. Guess I'll just ride my bike then.

Stevvo 7y ago
They mentioned it can be retrofitted in older aircraft. So it might be an option in the future if you are doing $100k panel upgrade in your 1950s tin can airplane.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  As the plane gets older and less sophisticated it gets harder to put all the pieces of the puzzle together without ripping the whole aircraft to pieces and starting over. Even after touching down, the aircraft this is built for have computer control for the brakes and full rudder authority, so it can do a pretty good approximation of a proper short field landing based on GPS and wheel speed sensors. Do you want to add computer controlled brakes and wheel speed sensors to your tin can? No? Then we have to assume the plan is to just roll to a halt and that cuts our list of viable landing sites and hurts survivability considerably.
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mtw 7y ago

Does this aircraft have LIDAR or cameras? Wondering how it works with other air traffic and potential collisions. This is one of the biggest challenges for self-driving cars and I can't see any details about this in the Garmin G3000

Stevvo 7y ago
The G3000 has ADBS in/out, and from January 1st ADSB out will be mandatory in the US, so it will know where other traffic is. Additionally, the autoland talks to ATC, and ATC can tell other traffic to get out of the way.
- lm28469 7y ago
  Even without that the chances of two planes colliding is nowhere near what autonomous vehicle are facing. + a lidar wouldn't do much in the air, it can't see very far, that's why we have radars.
kgilpin 7y ago
In an emergency, all the other traffic will be cleared out of the way.

heelix 7y ago

Very cool option. The rocket propelled parashoot ^h^h parachute essentially totals the aircraft when used. Even a crash at post touchdown landing speeds is likely easier on those on board. The autopilot features available to GA and experimental aircraft are quite impressive for holding things at a specific ask in various weather conditions. Not uncommon to have the autopilot active when flying in IFR conditions to help with some of the workload. Assuming the plane has GPS, a correct altimeter setting, and airspeed - between the instruments you get a reasonable amount of cross checking for accuracy and enough information to calculate your vector. If you actually fly/land at the speeds recommended, most of the time landing will be pretty uneventful. Many of the tablet/phone based GPS only solutions will give a pretty solid estimation of engine out glide distance too. You (should) pitch for 'best glide' speeds and in combination with the airport data bank with the GPS unit, know where you can get to. I'll push the 'direct to' nearest button and try for it were it in glide range. This sounds like it just connected all the automation dots. A good landing is where everyone leaves the plane safely. A great landing allows the plane to be used again. I suspect this is going for a good landing... which is fantastic news for the passenger.

dghughes 7y ago
>...parashoot A typo but that slip created a great brand name for a rocket-propelled parachute the "ParaShoot".
- heelix 7y ago
  ah god damn it. I was just coming back to make an edit as enough coffee registered the mistake.

jonplackett 7y ago

Question: A private jet is obviously bad for the environment, but how does a propeller plane compare carbon-wise to driving a car the same distance?

carleverett 7y ago
Not good. A Cessna 172 cruises at 140 mph and burns 8.5 gph of 100LL fuel, the equivalent of 16.5 mpg, and this is at cruise speed, not accounting for taxi, run-up, and flying the pattern during a normal flight. Not to mention we're still burning lead in most propeller aircraft as well. Fortunately this isn't a very popular way of getting around.
- jonplackett 7y ago
  It’s interesting that it’s not insanely bad. I assumed it would be maybe 2-10X worse but it’s in a similar ballpark. Would a full on private jet be way worse? Would these planes carry a fair few people than a car? If so what’s it like taking passenger numbers into account? I guess super-rich folk probably would be happy to fly just themselves in a big private jet and also be travelling waaaay further than they ever would in a car so it’s probably a silly comparison anyway
  - asdfadsfgfdda 7y ago
    There's actually a huge range in private planes. This M600 plane does about 7 mpg, 250 knots at 45 gph. A typical light jet might do 400 knots at 125 gph (3 mpg). But a light jet cannot not fly nonstop to a different continent. For these trips, a large business jet might do 450 knots at 300 gph (1.5 mpg), but only the very super rich can actually afford these. Even most celebrities will be flying the airlines for long international trips.
    - jonplackett 7y ago
      Thanks for the calculations! It’s weird how a more advance technology like a jet can be so successful yet an order of magnitude less economical. Usually it’s the reverse. But when you’re rich it’s time that’s money

mothsonasloth 7y ago

Interesting to use the word HALO, seeing as its already used as an acronym in aviation for High Altitude Low Opening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachuting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachu... There is also TALO, which stands for Tactical Air Landing Operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJdISjq8Wg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJdISjq8Wg

TheRealPomax 7y ago
Yes, but in a very different context. While both are "aviation", military aviation and commercial aviation are pretty isolated from each other.

code4tee 7y ago

This is impressive. Use case is for an incapacitated pilot. It won’t work well or at all if the aircraft itself is having issues or in other emergency scenarios. As such it doesn’t replace the need for qualified pilots at the controls.

asdfadsfgfdda 7y ago
I suspect they are marketing this for incapacitated pilots (an extremely rare situation), but it also seems like an alternative for overwhelmed pilots. They don't want to call their potential customers idiots, but this is another feature to help pilots avoid loss of control. And I definitely see a future version that could handle engine failures. If you can count on auto land to flawlessly glide to the nearest airport, who needs a twin engine airplane? Single engine airplanes are significantly cheaper to operate than twins.

dweekly 7y ago

Cirrus announced their version of this yesterday for their Cirrus Jet, they are calling the feature Safe Return. Also incorporates 7700, TAWS escape, wind check, pax 121.5 simplified radio controls, everything. https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircraft-revolutionizes-passenger-safety-through-autonomous-flight-with-safe-return-emergency-autoland/ https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircraft-revolutionizes-pa...

Robotbeat 7y ago

Sounds like something that, once it becomes perfected, could reduce the required number of pilots on commercial passenger aircraft from 2 to 1 (at least for smaller planes).

caseyf7 7y ago

Why do they cost $3M?

supernova87a 7y ago
The labor, insurance, and safety / regulatory certifications required of a low volume production aircraft.
- FabHK 7y ago
  Only about 1000 single-engine piston aircraft are sold every year worldwide, and only about 500 single-engine turboprop. It's a market with higher certification requirements, but much smaller unit volume than boats and cars, so much more certification, R&D, admin cost has to be covered by each unit sold. See eg. https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2019/02/26/2018-world-general-aviation-aircraft-shipments-up-5/ https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2019/02/26/2...

jillesvangurp 7y ago

Sounds very similar to something Austin Meyer (creator of x-plane) implemented a few years ago called Xavion: http://xavion.com/ http://xavion.com/ This is an ipad app that calculates a best glidepath to the best runway and guides you to the runway safely. It's intended for emergency situations when you lose an engine and quickly have to decide on an airport/runway. However, it sort of snowballed into an app with a lot of situational awareness features. But he actually experimented with hooking that up to a plane at some point to create a self landing system: https://www.x-plane.com/2014/07/xavion-brings-a-real-world-airplane-down-to-10-feet-above-the-ground/ https://www.x-plane.com/2014/07/xavion-brings-a-real-world-a.... Not sure if he ever shipped that feature. I imagine there might be some certification hassle :-).

rexaliquid 7y ago
Similar, but also kind of the opposite. Xavion is for when you have a functioning pilot, but a malfunctioning plane. Emergency Autoland is for when you have a functioning plane, but not a functioning pilot.
- jsmith45 7y ago
  Austin Meyer did help on an actual autoland device that was based on the same concept: the VP-400 by Vertical Power. But I'm not sure it ever went anywhere. In theory with that system, you could push the "oh-shit" button if you lose your engine, and it would take over the autopilot to try to automatically fly the calculated path. Of course I don't think it was as fully integrated, so no automatic radio callouts or anything. I'm not sure if the product actually ever became available. HOWEVER: If you have a TruTrak autopilot, and an an iLevil ADS-B receiver, then Xavion has a super experimental "auto" button that will actually control the autopilot, to attempt to automatically fly the calculated course.

briandear 7y ago

And Cirrus announced the same thing. This isn’t type specific but a characteristic of the new Garmin G3000.

tzm 7y ago

Cirrus' Vision Jet also has autolanding called "Safe Return" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0

rexaliquid 7y ago
Yes, both are implementing Garmin's new emergency autoland feature.

redis_mlc 7y ago

Not sure what HN is getting all excited about ... the Piper M600 is $3 million, and since Mexico is humid, they've had composite delamination problems ... Or you can just pull the throttle to idle, and trim for Vx, which is the "descend through clouds" emergency procedure.