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Early Retirement May Speed Up Cognitive Decline: Study
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- cevn 7y agoAnecdotally, my grandfather is 92 or so and still works as a journalist (reduced hours). He is still super sharp and does yoga every day. Blows my mind.
- mark_l_watson 7y agoMy Dad is 98, retired when he was about 80. He is still very sharp mentally, but has taken on hobbies like video production and 3D animation. Hopefully hobbies count towards brain health.
- miketuritzin 7y agoThere's nothing special about a job! If anything, I'd believe that someone who had the drive to do challenging activities on their own (and engage socially with others) is doing more for their mind and body than someone clocking in and out at a boring job.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mark_l_watson 7y agoI hope not, I recently retired. Still, the idea makes some sense. In retirement, I try to read one paper a day (usually deep learning, PGM, or classic AI), play at least one game of Go and Chess, do some recreational programming, and read. But, I don’t work into a state of brain-tiredness anymore like I used to at work.
- imesh 7y agoStatistics are useful for understanding a population but not for an individual. Some people get bored without work. I have never felt bored when not working. My grandfathers both worked as professors until they where forced to retire due to Alzheimers. Running marathons and working into their 70s didn't stop their mental decline. Should I focus on the statistics or my genetic history?
- radicalbyte 7y agoDo you exercise? Lifting weights regularly (3 x week) and getting some light cardio every day will help keep your body strong into your retirement. It dramatically reduces the chance of getting injured by a fall and will keep you healthly and happy longer. I'm approaching 40 and have built it into my schedule after several years of doing little and I'm feeling great for it. Next year we're moving to a large house and I'm going to have a small gym in the garage so I can keep to a tight schedule (I miss too much training because of having young kids).
- mark_l_watson 7y agoI hike at least ten hours a week (I live in the mountains) and go to the gym once a week. Your advice is excellent. My Dad is in good shape at 98 and he does thirty minutes of Canadian Airforce Exercises early each morning (he started doing this in 1964).
- aj7 7y agoYou have plenty of time to develop bad habits.
- irrational 7y agoMy dad is a doctor in his 70s. He works 60 hour weeks (which he claims counts as retirement for doctors). He truly believes that true retirement is suicide. He wants to be found dead while doing rounds at the hospital.
- jonsen 7y agoA man once told me that he used to work very many hours, until one day when he came home and met his four year old daughter. The girl startled and ran to the kitchen: “Mummy! The man is here.”
- sys_64738 7y agoI work to live not live to work.
- rochak 7y agoFor some people, work is life.
- PeterisP 7y agoI can certainly imagine having meaningful work that's the purpose of life, not just a source of funding for other activities. It's definitely not the case for many (probably most) people, but it is that way for some; there's probably a correlation with "high-status" jobs. For the OP example of a doctor, it's quite plausible that their social and ethical goal in life is healing people and their home life is just there to support their work; instead of wanting to (for example) play golf and having to heal people for money to support that. Or for example, did Feynman work on physics in order to "live" or was that work a goal in itself?
- ak39 7y agoI've always benchmarked post-retiring cognitive abilities and professional continuity with Noam Chomsky. He is my hero in that aspect too. If I can continue to do what I do now at his age, I'm ready for the off.
- monster_group 7y agoNot only early retirement but any kind of retirement that gets the retiree in a mode that they don't have to try anymore will result in cognitive decline. I am seeing this in my dad who has been retired for ten years now. Throughout his work life he was a sharp hard working banker. Now he uses his age and retirement as an excuse for not trying. Just yesterday he wanted me to order something for him from Amazon. I told him to send me the link to the item. He asked me how to do that. I told him if you can't find the Share link just copy the link and send it to me. He responds by saying that he doesn't know how to do copy-paste. He has been using computers for at least the last fifteen years. I asked him how come he didn't know how to copy-paste. His response was - I am retired now and there's nobody to tell me or teach me. I can see the cognitive decline. Things he used to be able to do, he can't anymore. This type of attitude is also affecting his self respect and confidence.
- dsego 7y agoSometimes answers like these can be confabulations. My father will make up anything as an explanation when you ask why, even when it's obviously not true. He still scores ok on the mmse, for now at least.
- marcos123 7y agoHard working banker?
- RaiseProfits 7y agoTo be fair, working with text is really hard on mobile and has regressed a long way from general purpose computers like the pc. To undo you have to shake the fucking thing, and text selection takes time and patience (if you can select the text at all!)
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y agoShake to undo and also shake to report a problem and also shake to report abuse. It does different things in different contexts. I can see how this could be confusing. vs. Right click > copy; right click > paste ctrl / cmd -c; ctrl / cmd -v Which, in my experience, are (almost?) universal. If your a keyboard native like me, you probably find text entry and editing on mobile fucking sucks.
- infinite_luck 7y agoThis is something I think about a lot. I plan to never stop doing mentally stimulating activities, even in my old age. The difference you can see in cognitive ability between the elderly is staggering. One particular instance that sticks in my mind was a video filmed in the UK where for some unrelated reason four older men and women were interviewed, with ages ranging between 80 and the low 100's. The mid 80 year old had trouble recalling information, spoke slowly, and generally seemed to exist in a fog so thick you could practically see it. On the other hand, the person around 100 was completely lucid, maybe even sharper than me! I can't say for sure that this is due to keeping busy and not partially genetic as well, but the variability really struck me.
- throwaway5752 7y agoMost of this is just pure dumb luck combined with vascular health (to the extent that isn't dumb luck).
- zeroxfe 7y agoWhy do you say so? There seems to be some compelling evidence that keeping your mind and body active increases your quality of life during old age.
- throwaway5752 7y agoYes, definitely. But it's not a single factor thing and want to emphasize that. Dying prematurely is not always some failing of will, nor is not keeping active. Degenerative joint issues, for instance. Also vision, like ARMD. Et cetera. I personally suspect that things that prevent activity are manifestations of the same age related wasting. But stay active at any age, mentally and physically. Even if it had zero impact on longevity (and it has a positive impact) it's good for quality of life.
- fooblitzky 7y agoMy understanding is that social activities are even more important than mentally stimulating activities.
- paulcole 7y agoTo me the problem is that entire generations have tied their worth/sense of self into what they do from 9-5. The idea of stopping that is so anathema to them that they just can't handle it. It's really sad to not be able to enjoy downtime in my opinion.
- neogodless 7y agoIf I understand you correctly, your premises are: that most people base their identity on their work; when people stop working, losing their identity, they experience faster cognitive decline. It's not clear to me what your frame of reference is for the second premise, though. How does having or losing identity maintain or diminish cognitive decline? EDIT: Two downvotes but no one is providing a source or some educational material to help me understand the science behind the premise. Let's be constructive here and try to educate each other. Thank you!
- dexwiz 7y agoSitting around May Speed Up Cognitive Decline. Both my Grandfathers retired shortly before seventy. One sat down in his Chair and did not get up. He ignored his health, and passed within 10 years. The other is highly active in his community and church, still gardens, and travels constantly. He is in his mid 80s with no sign of slowing down. Barring a major health incident, he will live well into his 90s like his mother, and may pass 100. Not doing anything is bad for your health, both physical and mental. The effects are exacerbated when you are older, but are still prevalent when younger.
- trileansoftware 7y agoIt's sad to see people you love doing this. You cannot equate retirement with not working. Work in things that you do enjoy and always wanted but didn't have the time, or get a hobby.
- akeck 7y agoWhich makes things dicey for retirees with post-polio syndrome. Moving keeps them mentally sharp, but also speeds post-polio progression (as I understand it).
- throwaway5752 7y agoI don't mean to be rude, but your living grandfather is very fortunate. Your deceased grandfather lived an average lifespan for someone in most of the developed world. I don't know ... a great deal about the background of your anecdote, but I would hesitate to overextrapolate, though. Sometimes the lack of activity is the manifestation of the underlying health issue that contributes to mortality.
- dexwiz 7y agoIts definitely anecdata. My surviving Grandfather has lost two wives (both active as he was) to cancer, so his life style alone does not confer longevity. That does not mean the will to live is not real, and those without out it fade much faster.
- 7y ago
- kchoudhu 7y agoNot surprising. I took a couple of years out to raise my kids, and I am having a hard time feeling as intelligent and proactive as I did before the break.
- JohnFen 7y agoInteresting. I did the same, but returned refreshed and sharper than before. However, 10 years or so ago I suffered from major burnout, and my brainpower has yet to fully recover.
- neogodless 7y agoIt'd be interesting to better understand the control for this research. The main premise here is that "those receiving pension benefits" (i.e. no longer working) have faster cognitive decline. But is there a correlation between the kind of work you did and receiving a pension? Perhaps the word "pension" means something a bit different here, but in U.S. English, we usually use it to mean a company-sponsored retirement plan, and that is something that is less common than it once was. Could it be that if you had a job where you knew you'd get a pension, maybe you didn't have to try very hard while you were working? That is, maybe you spent the last decade coasting and taking it easy before you retired. All of this could be invalid speculation if they just mean "retirement benefits" of any kind?
- loeg 7y agoCould also be confounding cause and effect (if not correlation and causation). Maybe people with medical/mental decline issues retire early at higher rates than background.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y agoYes, it seems far more likely to me that those who start experiencing cognitive decline make the choice to take their pension benefits earlier. I'm really surprised to see so many people here commenting as if this study demonstrates anything.
- waterhouse 7y agoYeah, that was my first question: Is this not just a hopelessly confounded correlational study? I was disappointed that the article didn't seem to talk about this. Well, at least it links to the paper, so here's a starting point: "In this paper, we estimate the causal effect of the NRPS program on cognition among individuals ages 60 and above. The expansion of the program affected an easily identifiable group, as the policy was introduced only in select areas. Our identification employs a triple difference (DDD) strategy. We exploit the staggered policy implementation between 2009 and 2013 and compare the cognitive outcomes of individuals 60 years and older who live in areas that implemented the NRPS program to the cognitive outcomes of individuals of the same age group who live in areas that did not implement the NRPS program."
- all_blue_chucks 7y agoBetter headline: Cognitive Decline Prompts Earlier Retirement
- sachdevap 7y agoIs there a reason you believe that the causality should be reversed? The article suggests they did tests post retirement and observed the rate of decline.
- whatshisface 7y agoSomeone with health declining over a long period will retire and withdraw from everything, and then later on be tested to find that their health has been declining I think you will find that most retired people are dead, just by virtue of the fact that all dead people retire!
- sachdevap 7y agoThe study talks of rate of subsequent cognitive decline post retirement. There's no fixed state, which once reached, people start retiring. I think the study does control for reverse causality. It is not a correlational study.
- ct0 7y agoCould be stated that overworking early in life may lead to cognitive decline post retirement.
- modeless 7y ago> among adults over the age of 60 This study has a different definition of "early retirement" than I do. I don't think the conclusions are applicable to FIRE people planning to retire in their thirties.
- loeg 7y agoIt's a study of elderly Chinese.
- BurningFrog 7y agoHow do you separate this from the surely non zero "cognitive decline causes early retirement" effect?
- ruminasean 7y agoMy experience with both my parents was "I retired and I don't want to use my brain anymore," and they have both definitely experienced decline since retirement. Some of my friends' parents, however, have adopted more of a "I'm retired and now I can dedicate all my brainpower to these special projects I've always wanted to focus my energy on." These people have mostly declined not at all or very little. I think the answer is not to retire and go rot in a chair while taking 5 naps a day.
- JohnFen 7y ago> "I'm retired and now I can dedicate all my brainpower to these special projects I've always wanted to focus my energy on." I'm not retired yet, but this is precisely what I'm looking forward to. The need to constantly generate an income is a time sink that really limits the ability to engage in far more interesting intellectual pursuits.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoConsider that the reason they don't want to use their brains is that they don't seem to work effectively, but they don't want to admit they have some cognitive decline. Like not wanting to go to a social function because you find them hard, one might say "I'm tired" or offer some other excuse because putting your failing on show is difficult too, the moreso when you're already smarting from a knock-back (being confronted with another failure).
- noodle 7y ago> I think the answer is not to retire and go rot in a chair while taking 5 naps a day. Yeah agreed. I think the key to retirement - both early and standard aged - is that you don't stop doing stuff. You just get to do the stuff you really want to be doing. If all you do for the remainder of your life is park yourself on the couch and watch TV, yeah of course your both mental and physical health is going to decline.
- chpmrc 7y agoThe title is kind of misleading, in fact the article's second last paragraph ends with: "Or alternatively, the kinds of things that matter and determine better health might simply be very different than the kinds of things that matter for better cognition among the elderly. Social engagement and connectedness may simply be the single most powerful factors for cognitive performance in old age." Point being: if you're wealthy enough you should care more about spending time with the people you love than how long it takes you to solve a Sudoku.
- rq1 7y agoPierre Bourdieu would put into perspective notions of work/activity and retirement. So he was interviewing if I recall people from North Africa, some were used to western industrial work and others not. (He wasn’t aware of that yet) He asked them if they worked lately. Those who knew industrial work said no or partly and the others yes. He asked both groups what they did during their typical working days. The « no/partly group » described some kind of chain/industrial work and unemployment traps. The « yes/busy group » said their typical work day was to discuss with their wives during 2 or 3 hours, attend and assist in solving the disagreements between neighbours in the public place of the village... etc. Taking care of their animals and fields was not that time consuming or exhausting (subsistence agriculture). In western societies, most of the socialisation and interactions happen in the work and professional environment. So what would one expect from « retirement »?
- newnewpdro 7y ago"Use it or lose it" is not a new discovery.
- topmonk 7y agoThat's why I keep smoking. Those lungs deserve a workout!
- calahad 7y agoExcellent, something I definitely don't have to worry about.
- JohnFen 7y agoAccording to the study, it sounds like the cause is not early retirement, but a decrease in the amount of social and mental activities. Those two things don't have to go hand in hand. Personally, I'm looking forward to retirement because it will afford me more time to engage in social and mental activities.
- newnewpdro 7y agoThe act of retiring to do nothing is so foreign to me. I take long sabbaticals from employment so I can actually work on harder problems and unfamiliar domains I'd struggle to do professionally if I could even get hired at all to do for money. That and spend more time on my physical fitness while still being able to sleep enough and study other things. Retirement where people just shut down is no different than a scheduled form of burnout.
- imgabe 7y agoAlternative explanation: decades of work destroy internal motivation and leave people directionless in the absence of someone to tell them what to do
- nnq 7y ago1000x times this!
- perseusprime11 7y agoI think this is not just limited to cognitive decline but I heard cases where people start suddenly contracting all kinds of diseases upon retirement. Goes on to show the both mental and physical exercise is key to our long term survival.
- meed 7y agoI feel that my cognitive abilities, along with my overall mental state, to be steeply declining. And I'm a senior software guy in a big Valley corp. Probably the real priority here is to find one's "happy place" and stay there as long as it stay that way.
- onemoresoop 7y agoYou don't mention your actual age so if you're not past 50, maybe you're just bored or slightly depressed?
- aj7 7y agoOne fifth of a standard deviation? Can’t be separated from self-selection effects.
- vesche 7y agoThis seems like a no-brainer to me... slaps knee
- tempsy 7y agoYeah I'm on a few months break from working and the most unexpected downside is the uptick in existential dread I've experienced.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoI'll anti-anecdote that. I've just started working a steady office job again after a 15 year "break" (mostly non-office work; raising kids) and existential dread is eating me. I had a couple of months interim and despite being dirt-poor in that time (no income practically) had no dread at all; too little time to get existential!
- dredmorbius 7y ago1. Raising kids is work. 2. It may be that it's the change in routine and identity is what's dread-inducing, more than the "work" (traditional/office/wage-labour) vs. "not work" distinction.
- onemoresoop 7y agoToo much free time I'd say. Get busy, do things, fill up the calendar!
- ivanhoe 7y agoI'd still love to take that risk...
- chiefalchemist 7y agoWhile there are certainly degenerative diseases, "use it, or lose it" also holds true for the brain. And whether it's TV or Facebook, junk food is junk food. The mind is no different than the body. In fact, the mind is probably more sensitive to neglect.
- bussiere 7y agomaybe videogame could be a way to moderate this especially puzzle video game or brain teaser video game;
- BillMcClare 7y agoYeah! You better use your mind than loose it lol
- JamesBarney 7y agoThe much more likely cause is people who are aging poorly are more likely to retire. My grandmother retired then experienced sharp mental decline. For a long time I thought her retirement caused the sharp mental decline. But looking back at it after learning about dementia, and talking with other family members she retired because she was experiencing mental decline which was the predecessor to dementia.
- sigmonsays 7y agoage old saying "Use it or lose it"
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- thematt 7y agoI've been wondering lately about whether video games will have any impact on this for future retirees. Anecdotally, I think today's teens/20/30/40 year-olds spend more time playing video games (whether solo or as part of their social interaction) than the current generation of retirees. Theoretically that may be one more tool to keep someone's brain sharp after they retire. Have there been any studies about video games and their effect on maintaining cognitive function?
- RickJWagner 7y agoMy mother was widowed in her 50s, worked until she was 67. Her advice? "Don't retire too early. You'll just get bored." I know it's good advice, but it's hard to want to follow it.
- llsf 7y agoAnecdote: My grandma retired in her 60's, she is now 102. She used to own a bar, in France (you can imagine the secondhand smoke, back in the 60-70's). She is mentally sharp, although the last couple of years, she is napping more. Vision (always had issue) and hearing (super annoying now) are declining, but memory is still here, and with hearing aid, the conversation is fine (if you do not mind repeating sometimes). So got retired for about 4 decades now (she lost my grandpa at the same time, it is crazy she lived ~40 years with him, and ~40 years without him). Even though she was not "working" (i.e. for a salary) in the past 40 years, she always kept herself busy, taking care of her house until 2 years ago when she went to assisted living place (not ideal, but it was becoming too dangerous for her to stay by herself past 100 years old). She like to do stationary bike until her 90's. Her daughter (now 82 yo) has some sort of Alzheimer, and does not have any short memory or facial recognition. Strangely enough she does have very old memories that looks current to her e.g. she warned us that we need to hide from the Germans... second world war trauma I guess, but interesting how it is still in her memory, when she cannot remember what she ate for lunch. So, for a while like until 5 years ago, my grandma (97yo at the time) was taking care of my aunty (77yo at the time), and was schooling her to make here remember of things. That was weird to witness... My aunty retired in her 60's too, did not exercise more than normal, but was always active maintaining a large house after her 5 kids left home. She worked in a hair salon for about 50 years (started at 16yo). I always wondered if hair products (ammonia, spray, etc.) did not play a role in the current situation. I have no idea how much exercise can slow down the decline, but there is more than just exercise. Clearly I would put my grandma as a "fighter" spirit person. She was born in an extremely poor family (alcohol issue, ending her as an orphan), in Brest, France which was where the Spanish flu started in Europe, in 1918 (she was one year old). She is a tough cookie, in a frail body. She is short and always been kinda skinny, probably the result of malnutrition in her early years. But yet, here she is a century later. To be fair, she is a bit tired to be around, and see everyone around her either die or getting some sort of Alzheimer. Now she is friend with her kids friends, since all of her generation friends are not there anymore. It is kinda cute to see her talking to my dad's childhood friends who are in their 70's or 80's now, recalling some mischiefs that happened 60 or 70 years ago.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
- brohoolio 7y agoI wonder if subtle cognitive decline leads to early retirement.
- holdenc 7y agoMore anecdotal...my mother-in-law is mid-70s. Retired for the last 20 years. Plays mahjong all day. Sharp as a tack, along with her mahjong friends.
- VladimirIvanov 7y agoI plan to study and play chess and go once I retire. I also want to contribute to OSS. I think if you engage in truly intellectually challenging activities daily then you will be lucid for your entire life. The brain needs stimulation like a muscle in order to retain its ability over time.
- alg0rith 7y agoYou forgot to say IN MICE
- kamaal 7y agoMy grandfather and father-in-law have both got dementia in 2 years after their retirement. My Father even got heart disease after retirement. I have long believed not working or not being active both physically and mentally is harmful to one's health. Keep yourself occupied in some way or the other. Human mind and body needs some engagement to work well. Too much of rest is as harmful as fatigue.
- adamnemecek 7y agoThis is communist/capitalist propaganda.
- sloopy543 7y agoI would like to think I might experience a cognitive acceleration when I retire. No more bullshit occupying my mind. No need to meditate to stop thinking about such-and-such shitty interaction at work. Hoping to get my mind back so I can do things more creative than whatever is in the JIRA.
- stared 7y ago"You live as long as you learn"
- tmm84 7y agoMy personal anecdotes are many but most of the elderly that I knew to be highly active, sociable and of sound mind were people who did stuff that was engaging and social. The only real limiting factor for the elderly that I knew well was when they had health problems (falls, stroke, heart attack, etc.) that they didn't recover from due to age. I would suggest that if you see retirement in your future then getting a long lasting hobby (gardening, wood working, etc), a simple side job or even volunteering (hospitals need volunteers for so many things) to make retirement a period where your mind/body is used.
- stubish 7y ago“For cognition among the elderly, it looks like the negative effect on social engagement far outweighed the positive effect of the program on nutrition and sleep” As a telecommuter, I wonder if I can slow my cognitive decline by retiring? I will need to avoid falling into the old solitary habits. And wear pants.
- aszantu 7y agoRetirement leads to boredom maybe and thus unhealthy eating habits. The hippocampus seems to be affected by too much insulin and sugar. This said, people in elderly homes in Germany are getting carb-loaded. Low fat, high carb meals and apple juice a lot of them take medications against high cholesterol. they are suffering from all the sugar related illnesses what's the brain made of? Fat and cholesterol...
- ScottBurson 7y agoNever retire. If you retire, you're just waiting to die. They'll have to pry my keyboard from my cold, dead fingers.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ChuckMcM 7y agoI suppose this applies to people who think of "retirement" as being sedentary and not challenging your brain. We need a word for what people in my social group who no longer have to collect a paycheck do, which is embark on things that either teach a new skill, have low probability of payback, or are intellectually challenging for the fun of it. It isn't "work" in that you don't have to put in time at someone else's business and sign over all your work product to them, but it isn't casual leisure either.
- PeterStuer 7y agoI can't help but wonder if all the well intentioned advise here by 20-40 yearolds to their grandparents about how to live their retirement to them sounds the same as a 16yo advicing those here on middle age life decisions.
- bariswheel 7y agoNot if you have hobbies that require mental exercise and effort. Go try out a bunch of stuff, stick to a few of them, see yourself improve, rinse and repeat.
- wensley 7y agoI've had a similar experience just from going on a 2 week beach holiday. Getting back to work was really hard, I remember staring at the screen full of code that I wrote without any idea of what it all meant. It took some real effort and breaking things down into tiny steps to get back into it.
- ddgflorida 7y agoDid you also read the study that said you may live longer if you retire earlier? I think the key is to stay physically and mentally active.
- ngcc_hk 7y agoSimple test: if you do this one minute later does it matter any other thing. None? You will start lazy and all way down. We do thing at the margin. We stay sharp for that. It is not work or collegiate. But at the margins, the moment ...
- driverdan 7y agoHere's the actual PR: https://www.binghamton.edu/news/story/2117/research-shows-that-early-retirement-can-accelerate-cognitive-decline https://www.binghamton.edu/news/story/2117/research-shows-th... And the study (PDF): http://ftp.iza.org/dp12524.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp12524.pdf I haven't read the whole study but it seems like it's pure correlation, is missing some controls, and has suspect conclusions. They claim > We find large and significant negative effects of the provision of pension benefits on cognitive functioning among the elderly. That's correlation. They're claiming that giving people money reduces cognitive function which is ridiculous. Eliminating cognitive activities and meaning could reduce cognitive function, giving people pensions would not. They didn't seem to have any controls for post retirement activity. All they controlled for was age, gender, and other medical conditions.
- hastes 7y agoThe child in me wonders if something like video games (i.e. StarCraft II/DotA/LoL/Card games, something with strategy and thinking) would be a way to fight this onset of cognitive decline in retired folks. It would be interesting to see a study of retired folks from the millennial generation, providing they play much more games than older generations.
- Phenomenit 7y agoMy view is that games help you become better at playing games. A while ago a lot of people said that doing crossword puzzles was a good way to keep your mind sharp but it's not really the case. The elderly who did a lot s puzzles just got good at doing puzzles.
- erikpukinskis 7y agoOne key difference between (many) games and crosswords is the presence of a human opponent.
- ilkan 7y agoWhether retirement was voluntary or forced, the health of the person at retirement time and social/vocational continuity could be bigger factors than the act of retirement itself.