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As an RF engineer who has tested frequency spectra and radiated powers of various consumer electronics including cell phones, I've never seen a cell phone (spec
by kawfey 7y ago
As an RF engineer who has tested frequency spectra and radiated powers of various consumer electronics including cell phones, I've never seen a cell phone (specifically an iPhone 5, A Nexus, a Samsung Galaxy S4, and a razr flip phone) transmit with airplane mode turned off.
It's not just airplanes that could be susceptable to cell phone emissions, but back in GSM days, the number of handoffs while in flight would effectively jam the cellular network in a 200mi radius. Nowadays cell phones are much smarter and don't do that, and the EMC risk in aircraft is extremely low.
- DoctorOetker 7y agomight phones in some sense be cheating emissions tests?
- iamkroot 7y agoHow? I don't think there's any way a phone could know if someone has a spectrum analyzer looking at it's antennas, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish between a user enabling airplane mode because they want to vs. someone testing it.
- sitkack 7y agoIn those RF cages, the phones are basically in a deep black void, pretty easy to tell you are in a void and not a rolling sunny hill. Or do what VW did and detect the testing station, I am sure the locations of the FCC test facilities are widely known.
- dmix 7y agoIf it was on airplane mode before it entered the room it wouldn't be able to tell, that'd be a useful first step.
- guywhocodes 7y agoWhy? Airplane mode is a software feature right, you just don't enable whatever power transistors you use to amplify your transmission. However a receiver won't give measurable EMF, you could still listen and detect any abnormally low noise floor. You could probably even employ a heuristic like "only call home if the noise floor has been very high for at least one hour". That would still be catastrophic for people trying to avoid tracking in demonstrations for example. Or what am I missing?
- dmix 7y agoYour phone's (rootkit?) would have to passively measure the room before any remote action, that's true and reduces the utility. Still it would require accessing the sensors in the faraday cage which might make some noise. Plenty of VM evasion stuff has been caught in the wild so it would up the game regardless, which is all you can really hope for against hackers and malicious parties. They almost always go for the easy targets who don't think of this stuff anyway. Good point none-the-less.
- angry_octet 7y agoOnly Audi phones.
- otoburb 7y ago>>I've never seen a cell phone (specifically an iPhone 5, A Nexus, a Samsung Galaxy S4, and a razr flip phone) transmit with airplane mode turned off. I think you meant "on"? If airplane mode was on, RF emissions were a strict test case executed in the lab Faraday cages where we ran new terminals through their paces prior to launch rollouts.
- kawfey 7y agoCorrect, typo. We were specifically testing the radiated and conducted (through its charging cable) emissions from the cellphone's processors, display, etc, and needed the radios off in a reverberation chamber.
- AndrewDavis 7y agoNo way to tell if it's listening though. It could be silent and still be processing every it can detect. Who knows if there are secret commands that can be sent to it to override airplane mode settings, or instructions to do other nefarious things and broadcast once out of air plane.
- eurasiantiger 7y agoWhy would they be listening to audio anyway when all phones have always-on speech recognition?
- angry_octet 7y agoHe means listening to the radio. A phone might have special baseband firmware that, e.g., turns on for a minute every hour and listens for a particular coded sequence (such as the date, and a mask of serial numbers, encrypted to a key in firmware etc), which would then cause the phone to do a number of things, such as turn on the radio for rx, or tx the RSSI of nearby towers, etc. All without telling the main CPU.
- edoloughlin 7y agoColour me dubious. If the phone is in airplane mode then the carrier doesn't know where it is. Are you suggesting they broadcast this information on all their cell towers? Or that they have a secret system to predict/guess where a dark handset might be so they can target it? Either sounds extremely unlikely.
- angry_octet 7y agoWell, lots of the NSA kit seems extraordinary. As to the practicalities, it wouldn't need to use the carrier network, just put it in a plane. Like the plane they have circling D.C. right now, or a drone. And your location is often known approximately. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/spies-in-the-skies https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/spies-in-t... Someone should point a good signal analyser at these.
- m463 7y agoCould just listen and log GPS location, bluetooth beacons, nearby wifi access points - without transmitting.
- angry_octet 7y agoAndroid does this routinely with wifi listening, if not GPS. It's a feature, and you can't turn it off. Haven't tested if GPS spoofing (a debug interface) overrides that. Iphones now do this too, privacy violation by relay to nearby iPhones, over Bluetooth and possibly with the new mm wave RADAR too.
- neuralRiot 7y agoFor those who don’t have a spectrum analyzer, you can test with an inductive amplifier like ones used for tracing cables. Or even an AM radio.
- tacone 7y agoA while back, I experienced a technical problem with my carrier. As a result, my subscription stopped working. That meant that for everyday I used the internet connection, I was to be charged 4 euros. The solution was obvious: airplane mode! You know what? It didn't help. They kept charging me 4 euros a day. Then I replaced the APN in the network settings with a fake one and suddenly the daily charges were gone. Airplane mode didn't help, some byte was still passing through. The phone was an android phone. The carrier refunded me right after fixing the problem (which took them a month and half).