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Around 30 percent of children in the U.S. don't get enough sleep: study
- jdlyga 7y agoEspecially high school students. We had to get up at 5:55 am everyday in the early 2000s, with class starting promptly at 7:35 am. It definitely affected our attention span for the first few classes each day. I count my blessings that nowadays, my first real meeting at work doesn't start until 10:30 am.
- MperorM 7y agoLack of sleep was definitely the cause of my terrible grades in highschool mathematics. I would stay up late (1-2 am) to play in starcraft tournaments, to have 8 am classes in mathematics. (There's a neat inverse correlation between my highschool grades and starcraft rank) It's crazy to me just how terrible school systems are at optimizing for learning. I would get terrible headaches from classrooms that had too many people and too little fresh air. I thought it was just me dreading my lessons, but in reality it was from co2 ppm reaching levels that humans can't properly function in. We wake up students too early, put them in rooms that kill cognitive performance and then have the audacity to complain when they can't follow along!
- umvi 7y ago> We wake up students too early Based on what you just said, if we moved school to 10am, you would just stay up until 4am playing StarCraft. I don't think school is too early. I think you just stayed up too late.
- sb057 7y agoBy that logic, if we moved school to 5 am, he would have simply only stayed up until 10 pm. Is that particularly realistic?
- gruez 7y ago>By that logic, if we moved school to 5 am, he would have simply only stayed up until 10 pm. I believe that. >Is that particularly realistic? The only issue is that at 5am, there won't be daylight during the winter. Lack of daylight presents safety issues and makes it more difficult to wake up.
- pfranz 7y agoIt's pretty well studied that most teenagers stay up late. My freshman year of high school my school was under construction so I was bussed across town. Which meant I had to wake up close to 5am. I don't remember staying up especially late, but I was perpetually tired. Id sleep on the bus both ways. In college I had a semester when I had a 5am class. I found it much easier to stay up all night and crash after than to wake up for class. https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/teens-and-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/teens-and-sleep
- mkl 7y agoA 5am class? That sounds insane! What was the justification for that time?
- subsaharancoder 7y agoThis "most teenagers stay up late" must be unique to U.S./European teenagers with access to computers, video games, mobile phones, internet and lax parental supervision. As someone who went to boarding school from age 14-18 years where sleep and wake up time was well regulated I can tell you for a fact that we all looked forward to sleep time. Most students preferred waking up earlier to study to take advantage of the quiet and focus.
- pengstrom 7y agoHaha, you'd like our winters then. If you look out during lectures you might catch the brief sunlight.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
- kamfc 7y agoPoor logic. We sleep eventually.
- wrktanice 7y agoYes, and if we stay awake playing video game tournaments and staring at a computer screen, that's usually the point of complete exhaustion.
- tom_ 7y agoThis is going back a fair few years for me, but I always thought school was too early! Perhaps you just didn't stay in bed for long enough? If you just wake up later, your bedtime will naturally end up later to compensate.
- jjeaff 7y ago"All of the studies of adolescent sleep patterns in the United States are showing that the time at which teens generally fall asleep is biologically determined -- but the time at which they wake up is socially determined" https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212140741.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212140741.h...
- casion 7y agoI don't think this is true. When I was younger, I only could fall asleep at ~2am. I went to multiple schools with starting times varying from 5am to 12pm, it never made a difference. I just wasn't tired until 2am no matter what.
- cco 7y agoDid you use artificial light anytime after the sun went down?
- Broken_Hippo 7y agoWouldn't one assume the folks use artificial light? People have been doing this well before electricity, especially during the winter. Doubly so up north. There simply isn't enough day here during the winter to do otherwise. Heck, my sunset time today is estimated at 16:22. I'll not have eaten dinner yet.
- aliceryhl 7y agoIs your whole house a big window? Where I'm from we always have light inside
- matwood 7y agoMaybe you're one of the very few genetic outliers. If you're never tired until 2am, and got up at say 6am for school then you're never tired on 4 hours sleep? I wish I was good on 4 hours sleep and never tired.
- ceejayoz 7y ago> I would get terrible headaches from classrooms that had too many people and too little fresh air. Did you test this hypothesis at the time with a CO2 monitor? Lack of sleep causes headaches, too.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoI don't think that's a fair demand of a schoolboy (at the time)
- ceejayoz 7y agoThat's why I think it's unfair to assume the cause of said headaches is CO2, when other explanations - like OP's acknowledged sleep deprivation - suffice.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoNot at all, we should not judge against the OP. Both conclusions are perfectly reasonable, have precedent, and could both be true simultaneously. ‘The essence of critical thinking is suspended judgement; the essence of this suspense is inquiry to determine the nature of the problem before proceeding.’ Unless you will conduct further inquiry, you should stop at suspending judgement. It appears to me that your judgement is based on prejudice against teenage behaviour rather than evidence.
- ceejayoz 7y agoI'm not sure why you'd think staying up late and getting a headache the next day is limited to teenagers. > Both conclusions are perfectly reasonable, have precedent, and could both be true simultaneously. This is exactly why I object to the statement "in reality it was from co2 ppm" without evidence from a CO2 monitor.
- MperorM 7y agoI didn't test it back then, it was only much later I made the connection when I started getting the same headaches from university, where I got proper sleep, enjoyed the coursework etc. A co2 monitor confirmed my suspicion. The problem with co2 monitors, is that it's really impractical to pull one out to check. I'm actually in the process of building one myself that instead sends descrete notifications to my phone if the co2 ppm gets too high.
- EpicEng 7y ago>We wake up students too early I agree, but... you were staying up until 1-2am playing video games. C'mon.
- barry-cotter 7y agoI stayed up til the same time reading books for the same reason OP stayed up, not being tired. Teenagers have a delayed sleep cycle compared to adults, it’s not a matter of choice, it’s when your body says to wake up or sleep autonomously, same as my baby wakes at 5am and sleeps at 8pm, because that’s what his body is telling him to do.
- wrktanice 7y agoWere you not tired because you didn't need sleep, or because your mind was being stimulated? It's quite easy to not feel tired when you're stimulated, but it doesn't mean you don't need sleep.
- cgriswald 7y agoSleepiness in humans is driven by the number of hours they remain awake and by time of day, more or less independently. In teens sleep onset as a result of these are both delayed relative to children and adults. Certainly there are cases where tired teens stay up because they are stimulated the same as happens in adults. But generally speaking, teens don’t stay up because they are playing Starcraft. They play Starcraft because they are up.
- wrktanice 7y ago> teens don’t stay up because they are playing Starcraft. They play Starcraft because they are up. This is, at least in my experience, completely untrue. When I play Starcraft, I'll easily play till 2-3 am before I start feeling tired. And I'd continue playing, but I'm literally succumbing to exhaustion at that point. If I force myself to before that, say midnight, I start feeling tired almost immediately. And if I don't play at all, and don't substitute gaming with some equally stimulating activity, I can easily be tired and ready to sleep by 10 or 11 pm. Not to mention, in addition to the mental stimulation, the impact of staring at bright blue light on natural melatonin production.
- masonic 7y agoin reality it was from co2 ppm How did you measure this?
- ip26 7y agoI never had access to co2 meters when I was a teenager, but I had the same suspicion. Some rooms regularly left me feeling stifled & drowsy, and the first breath of fresh air out the door would rouse me in an instant. I plan on sending my own kids to school with a meter one day just to see. The reason I don't believe it was just boredom is the worst offender was always choir- a class I loved, and a class with obviously elevated production of co2.
- shakna 7y agoThis one is actually backed up by a few studies like this [0] one. There's not enough studies to actually say conclusively that it's common or the usual cause, but there's enough to suggest it should be under consideration. [0] https://doi.org/10.1111/ina.12042 https://doi.org/10.1111/ina.12042
- lilgreenland 7y agoI have a CO2 meter in my classroom. It would get up to 2000 ppm if the fan was off. At that level you might feel some very mild effects on energy and focus. I keep the air intake on always now.
- arkadiytehgraet 7y agoI bet if you would study mathematics / do your homework instead of just playing SC, you would not have had bad grades. Source: studied math till 2 AM, played some TF till 4 AM, had math classes at 9 AM in highschool. Did not have bad grades in math classes.
- sabas123 7y agoWhich tournaments did you play in? Good old SC ruined my high school but god damn did I learn much from playing it competitively.
- AmVess 7y agoA co-author of the study recommends establishing regular bedtime routines. I wager the lack of a regular routine is the source of the problem. The school I went to had split shifts. I was on the early shift, and had to be up at 5AM. It wasn't a big deal because I had to be in bed by 9PM or it was my ass. Perhaps kids would get more sleep if their parents had rules and enforced them.
- bigred100 7y agoSome parents actively prevent their children from sleeping enough. Eg your brother will bother us if you don’t let him play on his computer in your shared bedroom until 3am and we are too tired to deal with it, so figure it out yourself.
- yellow_postit 7y agoWhy We Sleep[1] is a pretty complete look at what we know about sleep today and implies that many of the things I thought like being able to catch up on sleep is just wrong. Did confirm my belief that there are some people that just can operate on less, but they are fewer than might be imagined. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466963-why-we-sleep
- sjg007 7y agoAdolescents are natural night owls. It's probably in our genetics.
- masonic 7y agoIt's probably in our genetics It's never been reported in pre-industrial societies or even presently in areas where artificial light well into the night is uncommon.
- sl1ck731 7y agoThere have been quite a few studies popping up recently regarding this and there does appear to be genetic mutations that account for being a "night owl". https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/the-genetics-of-being-a-morning-person/ https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/the-genetics-of-be... DSPD is also seen far more frequently in adolescents.
- kortex 7y agoThat does not factor in genetic predisposition to sensitivity to the circadian stimulating effects of blue light. Some people aren't much affected by screen time at night, and some people can readily get up before dawn. I for one have to be very careful to limit my exposure at night, and waking up before sunrise (artificial or natural) is excruciating. I have been diagnosed with DPSD. I vastly prefer to go to bed and wake up later than average
- flerchin 7y agoEveryone, not just kids. Go the fuck to bed. In my experience, it's the same parents that struggle to make it to 930 standups that also let their kids stay up too late.
- epicureanideal 7y agoThere’s no reason a standup needs to be at 930 other than to punish people with later natural sleep cycles.
- planetzero 7y agoSO instead, you want to punish people with early natural sleep cycles?
- tom_ 7y agoSuch meetings can be held at any time of the day.
- planetzero 7y agookay, so let's hold the meeting at 9:30am.
- planetzero 7y agoheh. that's what I thought.
- tom_ 7y agoThat is of course always an option. I said "any time", and 9:30 am is certainly a time. But what about holding it at, say, 11 am, or 12 pm, or some other time that's later in the day and doesn't conflict with the lunch period? Then perhaps it would be OK for everybody, early risers and late risers alike. It's not like the day absolutely has to start with a meeting. (If I wanted to punish people that like to get up early, I'd suggest holding it at 6 pm or something. That ought to cause maximum annoyance to people that are good at getting up early: not so late that it's an unreasonable demand, any more than 9:30 am is, but still late enough that it's probably going to mess about with how you'd naturally structure your work day.)
- valley-green 7y agoIt’s because they stay up late in bed reading stories on Hacker News on their cell phones. Or maybe it’s just me.
- natmaka 7y agoAnother cause is believing that, in order to compensate for too-short a night, one only has to sleep more the next day, or even afterwards. AFAIK this is false, sleep doesn't work this way and we all have to sleep adequately each and every day.
- SimeVidas 7y agoIn college, I remember just dropping on my bed on Fridays at 5 PM and sleeping for a couple of hours. It’s not that I was overworked, I just didn’t take care to get enough sleep during the week.
- planetzero 7y agoI really don't think it has anything to do with the hours. Children/teenagers will try to get away with as much as they can. It's more about being rebellious. My elementary, high school, and middle school all started at different times (and my senior year of high school started much later because I completed enough credits). Regardless of how late school started, I would just stay up later, the later school started. I usually got around 6 hours of sleep/night and would be very tired during the day. I now know that I need at least 7 hours to be functional. Now I do think everyone has a different level of sleep they can function on, but the time a person goes to bed has little to do with it. This is just another excuse that today's parents are giving because they don't want to take screens away or discipline their children.
- jjeaff 7y ago"Research to date has shown that the circadian rhythms of adolescents are simply fundamentally different from those of adults and children," "All of the studies of adolescent sleep patterns in the United States are showing that the time at which teens generally fall asleep is biologically determined -- but the time at which they wake up is socially determined," https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212140741.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212140741.h...
- umvi 7y agoDoes that mean timezones and daylight savings disrupt teenage sleep patterns and that they are unable to adapt? Should we abolish timezones and daylight savings as to not interfere with the immutable teenage sleeping patterns?
- jjeaff 7y agoYes, on the first one. On timezones, doesn't matter. On daylight savings time, absolutely, though not necessarily just for teenagers but because daylight savings is idiotic and is of no benefit to 99% of the population.
- armatav 7y ago
- astura 7y agoKids need a more sleep than adults, sometimes a lot more sleep. I don't think adults realize this sometimes, and kids can silently suffer as a result (and not even really understand they are suffering). It absolutely amazes me when I see young children out and about late at night because I had a very strict early bedtime as a child - 8pm early in life, 9pm starting my tween years. It was very much to my disdain at the time, but now I strongly believe being well rested served me well in all aspects of my life.
- baron816 7y agoFalling asleep that early is unnatural and very difficult at that age. I recall many nights trying to go to sleep early and lying in bed, stressing about not being able to sleep (making it even harder to sleep).
- tonyedgecombe 7y agoI had the same regimen and don’t remember having problems with it. It wasn’t until my mid teens that I shifted to later times.
- matwood 7y agoI had the same routine and was fine. I think having a consistent sleep routine is key. What makes it unnatural? If you want to appeal to nature, how about turn off all the electricity in your house and see how late kids stay up with just a fire going.
- lsh123 7y agoMy kids play hockey and if they don’t ask me to go to bed by 9pm then they need a little more practice next time ;)
- frankieta 7y agoLately I'm trying to avoid being a "night owl" because I think it's affecting my short but also long term memory. I can't often remember things that I deem simple, like, "who's the lead singer of a band that I love" or I can have a more than normal difficult to remember the name of a colleague. Or maybe it's my brain developing some Alzheimer like disease. I'm 36
- Amygaz 7y agoThere’s a bell curve here. 1/3 in high school, 2/3 in college, 1/3 in the adult workforce (CDC data).
- known 7y agoTime to revise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum
- aussiegreenie 7y agoI would estimate that most Asian children do not get enough sleep.
- subsaharancoder 7y agoLong story short, parents need to consistently enforce strong rules regarding lights out time at an early age and eliminate excessive external stimuli as the day winds down. This idea that teenagers who can't make responsible choices are left to define their sleep time as well as other rules borders on child abuse.