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The assumption that they are hiring H1B employees to save money does not hold the water. It is a condition of H1B visa approval for the company to offer a compe

The assumption that they are hiring H1B employees to save money does not hold the water. It is a condition of H1B visa approval for the company to offer a competitive wage. The company must advertise a similar position and offer an H1B employee a salary in the market range. As someone who was on H1B once myself, I find articles like this as a disturbing example of anti-immigration hysteria which is quite common in current political climate in the US. "Indians/Mexicans are coming for your jobs!" For people who really think this is the case, I suggest comparing size of the US job market and H1B visa cap. The amount of H1B holder is relatively small. As someone who lives in the Bay Area, I know the demand for qualified engineers and I am pretty sure all the good engineers of 300 people they laid of will be snatched by other companies immediately.

dgzl 7y ago
From my experience, people are upset about "Mexicans are coming for your jobs!" because of employers hiring illegal immigrants to do labor work at a discount.
rosybox 7y ago
Yes, companies applying for H1B visas are not doing so in an attempt to save money, they are paying a premium to acquire desirable talent. However regarding your comment about "anti-immigration hysteria" US tech companies use foreign contractors to save on headcount costs. These are not H1B visas, these are contractors that are paid a very small fraction of the salaries of software engineers. These contractors are working along side US engineers and doing the same job for much lower pay. That is a concern to me as I cannot compete with the salary of someone living in Eastern Europe, Macedonia, India or Argentina. If you want to label my concern hysteria, you may do so, but it's still something I'm concerned about.
- belltaco 7y ago
  The ironic thing is that extra restrictions on H1Bs and the insane green card wait times will lead to accelerating offshoring and use of foreign contractors. In fact, it's already happening. Not only does it badly hurt the US economy and tax collection, when whole new teams are hired offshore, and the company is used to working with offshore teams, they will tend to hire new people in those places. E.g Canada is reaping rewards https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2019/09/16/canada-wins-big-from-america-first-trade-and-immigration-policies/#f0e92a06af8b https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2019/09/16/canad...
  - satya71 7y ago
    Exactly, there was a cost to figuring how to offshore the job. Now that it's harder to retain the international talent in the US, if you want to remain competitive, you have to setup overseas. Once you overcome the barrier, expansion overseas is easier.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    Canada was...but they’re starting to blow it. Six years ago, you could apply for a work permit as you crossed the border. It took fifteen minutes and you just needed a few pages of documentation from your employer. The waiting time has shot up to months (on one-year contracts) and the whole process feels a lot more degrading.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  The person you're replying to was not speaking of all foreign contractors, they were speaking of H1Bs in particular. So it sure doesn't seem that your particular concern was labeled hysteria, because it's a different one.
shadowmore 7y ago
It isn't hysteria, and that H1B process is clearly nonsensical. The people of the nation come first. Before anyone else. Always. That isn't isolationism. It's common sense. Just like your family comes first, before anyone else, to you personally. On the national/job market level, even if you can't immediately find someone to fill the position locally, it's your duty to do whatever is necessary, including bringing in less qualified people and training them to qualify for the position in question, or raising wages substantially, or any other solution, rather than bringing in outsiders. That's the only sane position, unless you're against in-group preference entirely, and people against in-group preference are dangerous, as they lack the ties of heritage and loyalty to those around them that are inherent to human beings with proper mental and emotional states. In short, globalists are sociopaths.
amiga_500 7y ago
People on visas cannot get raises. And they can't refuse to work late.
- dmode 7y ago
  Do you have references to back this up ? Or did you just make it up ?
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 7y ago
    No raises because many cannot afford to quit and lose the visa and be extradited. Can't refuse to work late or they can be fired and lose the visa and be extradited.
    - dmode 7y ago
      Why would anyone be extradited ? Did they violate some international law ?
      - Frost1x 7y ago
        OP likely meant deported due to lapse of valid citizenship status, not extradited. The spirit of what was stated is correct. H-1B workers have very low employment mobility and employers know and leverage this as much as they can.
        dmode 7y ago
        Completely incorrect. H1 employees in SV have a lot of mobility as there are hundreds of thousands of jobs available that sponsor your visa. And your visa can be transferred under 15 days. You don’t even have to quit your previous employer before your approval in place. SV companies have 20-40% attrition rate and a large portion of that is H1 employees moving around
  - paulgb 7y ago
    It's made up. I've had multiple visas including (currently) H-1B and it's just not true.
sergiotapia 7y ago
Give me a break, I've seen first hand how H1B's are treated like dogshit by management. What are they gonna do? Quit and go back home? It's modern slavery.
- dmode 7y ago
  Lol, you can quit and go to another employer, no ?
  - vsskanth 7y ago
    Not on short notice. Need to find an employer willing to sponsor and pray H1B application gets approved. Takes months. I agree it's much easier if you're in tech though.
    - dmode 7y ago
      In the context of SV, 100% of employers sponsor H1 visa. So you can literally walk to the next building, interview and have an offer by the next day. And get an approval in 15 days, and start working. I am exaggerating a little, but there are hundreds of thousands of H1 eligible software eng jobs available in SF and SV.
- vzaliva 7y ago
  They gonna find a new job and transfer their H1B there. It is difficult to get the first H1B as you must fit the limited annual cap. But once you got it, you can relatively easily transfer to new employer. Speaking from experience...
Glyptodon 7y ago
Oh please. They game competitive wages, make the position ridiculous in terms of requirements, or give it abusive attributes nobody with self respect and freedom would accept, write descriptions to match specific people, compare to lowest common denominator, and "advertise" the positions in places nobody will look, etc. Let me give you an example: A university near me hires postdocs on H1B despite there being an absolute glut of postdoctoral researchers available. They count some of the University benefits as contributing to the salary despite not being part of pay, and make the job requirements list items impossible to fulfill unless you've already done work with whichever researcher is hiring by making "experience" with their one off research projects or very narrow (but not hard to understand) areas of expertise a requirement. The whole thing is an absolute joke and is used to import workers by the bucket load. Often times entire labs will be from the same country as a researcher despite them mostly doing lab grunt work undergrads could be trained to do in a semester or less. Mind you I'm not against foreign workers, but the H1B program is an indentured servant sham. It's easy to fix, though. Accept H1 apps based on compensation: high pay to low, no lottery, and grant green cards after 18 months work.
- vsskanth 7y ago
  >They count some of the University benefits as contributing to the salary This is not true and simply can't happen. Every single H1B filing data is online and public so if you want to refute me you are free to post the exact filing. >make the job requirements list items impossible to fulfill unless you've already done work with whichever researcher is hiring by making "experience" with their one off research projects or very narrow (but not hard to understand) areas of expertise a requirement. Also not true since there is no job posting requirement for H1Bs. Only for EB2/3 green cards. Universities generally don't sponsor green cards unless it's EB1B so this can't happen either. I agree with your last suggestion though.
  - Frost1x 7y ago
    Advertising the position for certain time periods is typically a requirement related to using federal funding obtained through grants for paying personnel from certain agencies or a general university policy. The process OP described is extremely common when groups already decided who they want to hire, but have to appear above board. Your resume essentially becomes the job posting making it nearly impossible for someone to compete (assuming you have niche skills/experience which is likely). I worked in academic research for over a decade and have received a raise using the exact process OP described (I was/always have been a full citizen). I've also seen it used by other collaborating groups.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
SecretZeros 7y ago
Check out this "competitive wage:" https://imgur.com/a/Sao5CKy https://imgur.com/a/Sao5CKy (Saw this on a university bulletin board a few years ago and snapped a picture.)
Frost1x 7y ago
It is absolutely not a condition of the visa approval process that H-1B receive competitive wages. The language specifies recipients must be paid "prevailing wage" and that is defined and determined in a variety of ambiguous ways that allow lots of ambiguity for wage suppression I personally know at least 8 H-1Bs that are not being paid competitive wages as specialists in the medical industry who in many cases earn 50% or less than their actual peers. The current person I've been dating for four years is one of the people whose wage jumped 200% once they obtained their green card and had leverage to ask for a raise or switch employers at will as part of that negotiation process. I know those wages are not competitive because there were several friends working in the same area in a small community as full citizens who disclosed their salaries. In addition, others who went through the immigration process in that community frequently explain the process to H-1Bs that their salaries will jump significantly. Underpaid H-1B is most certainly not a myth, it's a very real abuse of the system. Now, I'm sure there are plenty of legitimate competitively paid workers on H-1B, but my sampling of exposure to that world leans towards continual employer abuse of the system, at least for the healthcare industry. I don't hold this abuse against people going through the immigration process, but I do find it highly unethical where many employers use the system akin to past forms of indentured servitude when the individuals are highly capable but make the sacrifice to gain more opportunity. These folks should be getting paid what their peers do (less some of the legal overhead required to manage the H1B aspect which is less significant for large companies than smaller businesses).
- pembrook 7y ago
  This would be easily fixed if H-1Bs were not tied to the employer. This is fatal design flaw in the program, and if fixed, any worker who is underpaid could easily jump to another job that actually paid market rate without having to worry about any visa issues. In fact, many employment issues in the US are rooted in the poor decision to tie things to an employer. Healthcare being the worst offender, but also shitty high-fee 401k plans, etc.
  - vzaliva 7y ago
    But they are easily transferable. I've hanged work on H1B at least 4 times.

dgzl 7y ago

From my experience, people are upset about "Mexicans are coming for your jobs!" because of employers hiring illegal immigrants to do labor work at a discount.

rosybox 7y ago

Yes, companies applying for H1B visas are not doing so in an attempt to save money, they are paying a premium to acquire desirable talent. However regarding your comment about "anti-immigration hysteria" US tech companies use foreign contractors to save on headcount costs. These are not H1B visas, these are contractors that are paid a very small fraction of the salaries of software engineers. These contractors are working along side US engineers and doing the same job for much lower pay. That is a concern to me as I cannot compete with the salary of someone living in Eastern Europe, Macedonia, India or Argentina. If you want to label my concern hysteria, you may do so, but it's still something I'm concerned about.

belltaco 7y ago
The ironic thing is that extra restrictions on H1Bs and the insane green card wait times will lead to accelerating offshoring and use of foreign contractors. In fact, it's already happening. Not only does it badly hurt the US economy and tax collection, when whole new teams are hired offshore, and the company is used to working with offshore teams, they will tend to hire new people in those places. E.g Canada is reaping rewards https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2019/09/16/canada-wins-big-from-america-first-trade-and-immigration-policies/#f0e92a06af8b https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2019/09/16/canad...
- satya71 7y ago
  Exactly, there was a cost to figuring how to offshore the job. Now that it's harder to retain the international talent in the US, if you want to remain competitive, you have to setup overseas. Once you overcome the barrier, expansion overseas is easier.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Canada was...but they’re starting to blow it. Six years ago, you could apply for a work permit as you crossed the border. It took fifteen minutes and you just needed a few pages of documentation from your employer. The waiting time has shot up to months (on one-year contracts) and the whole process feels a lot more degrading.
greglindahl 7y ago
The person you're replying to was not speaking of all foreign contractors, they were speaking of H1Bs in particular. So it sure doesn't seem that your particular concern was labeled hysteria, because it's a different one.

shadowmore 7y ago

It isn't hysteria, and that H1B process is clearly nonsensical. The people of the nation come first. Before anyone else. Always. That isn't isolationism. It's common sense. Just like your family comes first, before anyone else, to you personally. On the national/job market level, even if you can't immediately find someone to fill the position locally, it's your duty to do whatever is necessary, including bringing in less qualified people and training them to qualify for the position in question, or raising wages substantially, or any other solution, rather than bringing in outsiders. That's the only sane position, unless you're against in-group preference entirely, and people against in-group preference are dangerous, as they lack the ties of heritage and loyalty to those around them that are inherent to human beings with proper mental and emotional states. In short, globalists are sociopaths.

amiga_500 7y ago

People on visas cannot get raises. And they can't refuse to work late.

dmode 7y ago
Do you have references to back this up ? Or did you just make it up ?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 7y ago
  No raises because many cannot afford to quit and lose the visa and be extradited. Can't refuse to work late or they can be fired and lose the visa and be extradited.
  - dmode 7y ago
    Why would anyone be extradited ? Did they violate some international law ?
    - Frost1x 7y ago
      OP likely meant deported due to lapse of valid citizenship status, not extradited. The spirit of what was stated is correct. H-1B workers have very low employment mobility and employers know and leverage this as much as they can.
      - dmode 7y ago
        Completely incorrect. H1 employees in SV have a lot of mobility as there are hundreds of thousands of jobs available that sponsor your visa. And your visa can be transferred under 15 days. You don’t even have to quit your previous employer before your approval in place. SV companies have 20-40% attrition rate and a large portion of that is H1 employees moving around
- paulgb 7y ago
  It's made up. I've had multiple visas including (currently) H-1B and it's just not true.

sergiotapia 7y ago

Give me a break, I've seen first hand how H1B's are treated like dogshit by management. What are they gonna do? Quit and go back home? It's modern slavery.

dmode 7y ago
Lol, you can quit and go to another employer, no ?
- vsskanth 7y ago
  Not on short notice. Need to find an employer willing to sponsor and pray H1B application gets approved. Takes months. I agree it's much easier if you're in tech though.
  - dmode 7y ago
    In the context of SV, 100% of employers sponsor H1 visa. So you can literally walk to the next building, interview and have an offer by the next day. And get an approval in 15 days, and start working. I am exaggerating a little, but there are hundreds of thousands of H1 eligible software eng jobs available in SF and SV.
vzaliva 7y ago
They gonna find a new job and transfer their H1B there. It is difficult to get the first H1B as you must fit the limited annual cap. But once you got it, you can relatively easily transfer to new employer. Speaking from experience...

Glyptodon 7y ago

Oh please. They game competitive wages, make the position ridiculous in terms of requirements, or give it abusive attributes nobody with self respect and freedom would accept, write descriptions to match specific people, compare to lowest common denominator, and "advertise" the positions in places nobody will look, etc. Let me give you an example: A university near me hires postdocs on H1B despite there being an absolute glut of postdoctoral researchers available. They count some of the University benefits as contributing to the salary despite not being part of pay, and make the job requirements list items impossible to fulfill unless you've already done work with whichever researcher is hiring by making "experience" with their one off research projects or very narrow (but not hard to understand) areas of expertise a requirement. The whole thing is an absolute joke and is used to import workers by the bucket load. Often times entire labs will be from the same country as a researcher despite them mostly doing lab grunt work undergrads could be trained to do in a semester or less. Mind you I'm not against foreign workers, but the H1B program is an indentured servant sham. It's easy to fix, though. Accept H1 apps based on compensation: high pay to low, no lottery, and grant green cards after 18 months work.

vsskanth 7y ago
>They count some of the University benefits as contributing to the salary This is not true and simply can't happen. Every single H1B filing data is online and public so if you want to refute me you are free to post the exact filing. >make the job requirements list items impossible to fulfill unless you've already done work with whichever researcher is hiring by making "experience" with their one off research projects or very narrow (but not hard to understand) areas of expertise a requirement. Also not true since there is no job posting requirement for H1Bs. Only for EB2/3 green cards. Universities generally don't sponsor green cards unless it's EB1B so this can't happen either. I agree with your last suggestion though.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  Advertising the position for certain time periods is typically a requirement related to using federal funding obtained through grants for paying personnel from certain agencies or a general university policy. The process OP described is extremely common when groups already decided who they want to hire, but have to appear above board. Your resume essentially becomes the job posting making it nearly impossible for someone to compete (assuming you have niche skills/experience which is likely). I worked in academic research for over a decade and have received a raise using the exact process OP described (I was/always have been a full citizen). I've also seen it used by other collaborating groups.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

SecretZeros 7y ago

Check out this "competitive wage:" https://imgur.com/a/Sao5CKy https://imgur.com/a/Sao5CKy (Saw this on a university bulletin board a few years ago and snapped a picture.)

Frost1x 7y ago

It is absolutely not a condition of the visa approval process that H-1B receive competitive wages. The language specifies recipients must be paid "prevailing wage" and that is defined and determined in a variety of ambiguous ways that allow lots of ambiguity for wage suppression I personally know at least 8 H-1Bs that are not being paid competitive wages as specialists in the medical industry who in many cases earn 50% or less than their actual peers. The current person I've been dating for four years is one of the people whose wage jumped 200% once they obtained their green card and had leverage to ask for a raise or switch employers at will as part of that negotiation process. I know those wages are not competitive because there were several friends working in the same area in a small community as full citizens who disclosed their salaries. In addition, others who went through the immigration process in that community frequently explain the process to H-1Bs that their salaries will jump significantly. Underpaid H-1B is most certainly not a myth, it's a very real abuse of the system. Now, I'm sure there are plenty of legitimate competitively paid workers on H-1B, but my sampling of exposure to that world leans towards continual employer abuse of the system, at least for the healthcare industry. I don't hold this abuse against people going through the immigration process, but I do find it highly unethical where many employers use the system akin to past forms of indentured servitude when the individuals are highly capable but make the sacrifice to gain more opportunity. These folks should be getting paid what their peers do (less some of the legal overhead required to manage the H1B aspect which is less significant for large companies than smaller businesses).

pembrook 7y ago
This would be easily fixed if H-1Bs were not tied to the employer. This is fatal design flaw in the program, and if fixed, any worker who is underpaid could easily jump to another job that actually paid market rate without having to worry about any visa issues. In fact, many employment issues in the US are rooted in the poor decision to tie things to an employer. Healthcare being the worst offender, but also shitty high-fee 401k plans, etc.
- vzaliva 7y ago
  But they are easily transferable. I've hanged work on H1B at least 4 times.