6 ms·

I could be seen as a living case study for these theories. I started experiencing a complex combination of physiological symptoms in early adulthood (actually

I could be seen as a living case study for these theories. I started experiencing a complex combination of physiological symptoms in early adulthood (actually in childhood in some ways), that gradually got worse into my 30s. All kinds of treatments were suggested and tried over several years, but nothing really moved the needle until I started regular practice of subconscious emotional healing techniques. I've been doing this type of work for about 7 years now. There is improvement in a lot of areas, though the process is not complete. I still have some anxiety and muscle tension/pain, and evidence of inflammation in my body. But it's not nearly as bad as it was before I started the emotional work. And I keep finding new emotional baggage to heal. So it's a long journey, but the results are clear. It's hard to talk about with peers, as there's a general attitude among scientifically-minded people that the notion of a link between emotions/thoughts and physiology is absurd. Yet the very same people will generally insist that there is no mind-body distinction, and that consciousness is obviously just an emergent phenomenon of brain matter/chemistry. Apparently it doesn't occur to a lot of people that if mind and body are one and the same, mind activity must surely be deeply interconnected to physiology. Anyway, that's a little of my story. AMA.

zeofig 7y ago
Sounds interesting. I also have some minor but unsettling symptoms which I think could be related to such things. Would you mind sharing what kind of symptoms you experience?
- tomhoward 7y ago
  It ended up as something resembling "chronic fatigue syndrome". That very concept is controversial, as is the notion that it has any underlying emotional cause, so I don't frequent CFS communities or talk about it in those terms much, but it does seem to be in that sphere of illnesses. Defining symptoms have included chronic muscle tension/pain, slow digestion, immune system dysfunction, enlarged/painful lymph nodes, unrefreshing sleep, always feeling under-oxygenated/undernourished even when having a very healthy diet, a constant sense feeling "tired and wired", or "spinning the wheels"; i.e., at-once feeling exhausted, but also like your body/mind is working at full speed, but not being able to get much forward momentum in life.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    What are the techniques you've used? Any information available online?
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      My reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21342725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21342725
  - rewgs 7y ago
    You're basically describing the past 10 years of medical mystery for me, especially this: "unrefreshing sleep, always feeling under-oxygenated/undernourished even when having a very healthy diet, a constant sense feeling "tired and wired", or "spinning the wheels"; i.e., at-once feeling exhausted, but also like your body/mind is working at full speed, but not being able to get much forward momentum in life." Completely, utterly on point. Thank you!
    - bosie 7y ago
      How do you feel 'undernourished'?
      - rewgs 7y ago
        Hard to explain, but I guess Bilbo Baggins said it best: "like butter scraped over too much bread." I exercise (primarily weights and yoga, plus cardio here and there) 3-4 times per week, eat incredibly healthy (lots of greens and lean proteins), get enough sleep (7-9 hours). My blood pressure, weight, and BMI are great. I have sleep apnea and am allergic to wheat but have treated those as best I can (the former is difficult, the latter is quite simple). And yet, I feel sort of "removed." Constantly fatigued. Kind of like being in caffeine withdrawal (and no, that's not it). Don't feel as strong as my exercise and age (late 20's) would have you think. Always dehydrated. Very little "vitality." Around the same time period, I was "floxxed" by Cipro, and got Mono. My best explanation is that it has something to do with one or both, but no doctor has ever figured it out. By all accounts, I'm very healthy. I just constantly feel like shit.
peteretep 7y ago
> as there's a general attitude among scientifically-minded people that the notion of a link between emotions/thoughts and physiology is absurd I am surprised to hear that's the case, and also it absolutely does not match my experience of the scientifically minded people I know, all of whom are familiar with both the placebo effect and the term psychosomatic.
- chongli 7y ago
  Anyone who is scientifically minded enough to have spent some time learning biology and human anatomy has probably heard of hormones such as adrenaline and have felt their effects on the body. Under stress we sweat, feel jittery or flighty, get dry mouth, have trouble speaking clearly, and more. Casually speaking, it might seem easy to wave off such body changes in response to emotion as a temporary thing. That would be premature. Cortisol is another hormone associated with stress and people with stressful lives show elevated cortisol levels which may be related to weight gain and obesity [1]. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2009.76 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2009.76
- tomhoward 7y ago
  > all of whom are familiar with both the placebo effect and the term psychosomatic Sure, but those concepts are more often regarded with dismissiveness in the context I'm talking about. Try proposing to such a person that chronic auto-immune illness, that has resisted treatment by conventional medicine, could be remedied via non-mainstream subconscious healing techniques. It's notable that zealots end up tying themselves in knots over these topics. In attacking homeopathy (which, to be clear, I’m not into), Science Based Medicine [1] goes as far as claiming that the placebo effect doesn't bring about any actual physiological improvement, but rather just brings about a feeling of wellbeing. This seems to contradict the way in which it the concept is used in mainstream medical trials. It also presumes that "feeling good" and physiological healing are unrelated concepts, which would be surprising from an evolutionary perspective. But hey what do I know? I'm no doctor, just a poor shmo trying to make sense of it all while trying whatever means possible to get well. [1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-myths-debunked/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-myths-debunked/
veganjay 7y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. Could please describe more about subconscious emotional healing techniques? How did you learn about it and is it a solitary practice or one that is guided by a professional?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I am curious too.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Me three
- tomhoward 7y ago
  Everyone curious about this is welcome to email me (address in profile). If you don't hear from me, hit me up again; I'm intending to prepare a doc that explains the approach I've used. I don't want it to be too long, but I just need to find the time to do make it adequate. But if you can't wait for me to do that, reading/watching content by Bruce Lipton is a good start.
  - circlefavshape 7y ago
    Uurgh, dude - it's not the emotional healing that puts scientifically-minded people off, it's Bruce Lipton's language. "The subconscious mind is operating at a vibrational frequency of theta". What? That's the kind of nonsense I get from the stoners down in my local pub. If his techniques work, they work, and I'm happy for you that you have improved your life. I, however, find such language so off-putting that I can't imagine ever trying anything like this
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      Are you actually in need of this kind of help in the first place? If not, why not just ignore it and move on, rather than posting drive-by bile like this as your one-and-only contribution to the entire thread? His presentation style is not for everyone, sure. Nobody’s is. He talks in pictures and metaphors, which for many people is the most effective way to receive information. Not you? No worries! But consider that you’re only talking about persuasiveness of language/presentation for yourself, not science. The very quote you picked out to mock is perfectly valid science.
rectangletangle 7y ago
I would honestly be surprised if this kind of link didn't have at least some measurable impact, physiology is hardly decoupled (in the coding sense). It's been well established that poor mental health (loss of will to live) correlates strongly with early mortality, even when controlling for obvious variables. Though establishing the causality on that is challenging. There are lots of strange physiological links that aren't necessarily logical, due to the imperfect nature of natural selection (it strives for the local optima and "good enough," over the global optima). For instance it's well documented that consciously smiling improves mood, even though the causality is "backwards."
- amelius 7y ago
  > natural selection (it strives for the local optima and "good enough," over the global optima) It might also optimize for the community rather than the individual, I suppose.
Lewton 7y ago
One way that emotional healing could possibly have real positive effects on symptoms is if the symptoms are remnants from a real disease that have passed. As an analogy. When you’re stretching your muscles, you’re generally not actually elongating any part of your body, instead you’re teaching your nervous system that it’s safe to move your muscles in the range you’re stretching into. Most people get to experience acute back pain in their life, and will notice how this can cause your entire back to freeze up, even well past the point of where the actual thing that caused the pain has been healed. This is the nervous system protecting your back from hurting itself. Making it a necessary part of rehabilitation to do stretches to show your body that the range of motion is safe again. In the same kind of way, actively working on mentally overcoming symptoms that were your body’s reaction to real disease or trauma that has since passed, can have very real effects. This could be in the form of meditation, therapy or even faith healing(!) [0] [0] see derren brown talk about his experiences doing faith healing as a skeptic https://youtu.be/CCzzaDwUuDk https://youtu.be/CCzzaDwUuDk time stamp 22 minutes 18 seconds
- jvln 7y ago
  The analogy about muscle streching is wrong.
  - SamBam 7y ago
    There's a fair bit of evidence now than most of stretching is, indeed, actually about training the body not to reflexively contract to fight the stretch. > Due to neurological safeguards against injury such as the Golgi tendon reflex, it is normally impossible for adults to stretch most muscle groups to their fullest length without training due to the activation of muscle antagonists as the muscle reaches the limit of its normal range of motion. [1] > First, they end up mostly agreeing with a body of previous research suggesting that increased range of motion following a prolonged stretching program is mainly the result of increased tolerance to the sensation of stretching, rather than actually loosening the muscle-tendon unit. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretching [2] https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20811349/does-stretching-loosen-muscles-and-tendons/ https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20811349/does-...
billman 7y ago
Have you read John Sarno?
superpermutat0r 7y ago
My partner is also heavily burdened by emotional trauma that has resulted in asthma, stomach issues, urinary tract infections (where every urinary analysis finds some other obscure bacteria, not common anywhere). The emotional trauma, constant tension, lack of meaning, depression, inability to learn anything, or learning very slowly, bad autobiographical memory, all symptoms listed in the article. I truly believe if she were to do something about the mind that stuff would get better. And I'm a very hard-science guy that reads Cochrane and doubts everything. Although, problem is that CBT does not work for her, talking with professionals does not work too. Obviously, the issues are that the bodies immune system is weakened from some stress that should not be there.
- elbear 7y ago
  The article also mentions that CBT does little for this kind of trauma. There are more effective treatments. They're listed towards the end.

zeofig 7y ago

Sounds interesting. I also have some minor but unsettling symptoms which I think could be related to such things. Would you mind sharing what kind of symptoms you experience?

tomhoward 7y ago
It ended up as something resembling "chronic fatigue syndrome". That very concept is controversial, as is the notion that it has any underlying emotional cause, so I don't frequent CFS communities or talk about it in those terms much, but it does seem to be in that sphere of illnesses. Defining symptoms have included chronic muscle tension/pain, slow digestion, immune system dysfunction, enlarged/painful lymph nodes, unrefreshing sleep, always feeling under-oxygenated/undernourished even when having a very healthy diet, a constant sense feeling "tired and wired", or "spinning the wheels"; i.e., at-once feeling exhausted, but also like your body/mind is working at full speed, but not being able to get much forward momentum in life.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  What are the techniques you've used? Any information available online?
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    My reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21342725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21342725
- rewgs 7y ago
  You're basically describing the past 10 years of medical mystery for me, especially this: "unrefreshing sleep, always feeling under-oxygenated/undernourished even when having a very healthy diet, a constant sense feeling "tired and wired", or "spinning the wheels"; i.e., at-once feeling exhausted, but also like your body/mind is working at full speed, but not being able to get much forward momentum in life." Completely, utterly on point. Thank you!
  - bosie 7y ago
    How do you feel 'undernourished'?
    - rewgs 7y ago
      Hard to explain, but I guess Bilbo Baggins said it best: "like butter scraped over too much bread." I exercise (primarily weights and yoga, plus cardio here and there) 3-4 times per week, eat incredibly healthy (lots of greens and lean proteins), get enough sleep (7-9 hours). My blood pressure, weight, and BMI are great. I have sleep apnea and am allergic to wheat but have treated those as best I can (the former is difficult, the latter is quite simple). And yet, I feel sort of "removed." Constantly fatigued. Kind of like being in caffeine withdrawal (and no, that's not it). Don't feel as strong as my exercise and age (late 20's) would have you think. Always dehydrated. Very little "vitality." Around the same time period, I was "floxxed" by Cipro, and got Mono. My best explanation is that it has something to do with one or both, but no doctor has ever figured it out. By all accounts, I'm very healthy. I just constantly feel like shit.

peteretep 7y ago

> as there's a general attitude among scientifically-minded people that the notion of a link between emotions/thoughts and physiology is absurd I am surprised to hear that's the case, and also it absolutely does not match my experience of the scientifically minded people I know, all of whom are familiar with both the placebo effect and the term psychosomatic.

chongli 7y ago
Anyone who is scientifically minded enough to have spent some time learning biology and human anatomy has probably heard of hormones such as adrenaline and have felt their effects on the body. Under stress we sweat, feel jittery or flighty, get dry mouth, have trouble speaking clearly, and more. Casually speaking, it might seem easy to wave off such body changes in response to emotion as a temporary thing. That would be premature. Cortisol is another hormone associated with stress and people with stressful lives show elevated cortisol levels which may be related to weight gain and obesity [1]. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2009.76 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2009.76
tomhoward 7y ago
> all of whom are familiar with both the placebo effect and the term psychosomatic Sure, but those concepts are more often regarded with dismissiveness in the context I'm talking about. Try proposing to such a person that chronic auto-immune illness, that has resisted treatment by conventional medicine, could be remedied via non-mainstream subconscious healing techniques. It's notable that zealots end up tying themselves in knots over these topics. In attacking homeopathy (which, to be clear, I’m not into), Science Based Medicine [1] goes as far as claiming that the placebo effect doesn't bring about any actual physiological improvement, but rather just brings about a feeling of wellbeing. This seems to contradict the way in which it the concept is used in mainstream medical trials. It also presumes that "feeling good" and physiological healing are unrelated concepts, which would be surprising from an evolutionary perspective. But hey what do I know? I'm no doctor, just a poor shmo trying to make sense of it all while trying whatever means possible to get well. [1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-myths-debunked/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-myths-debunked/

veganjay 7y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience. Could please describe more about subconscious emotional healing techniques? How did you learn about it and is it a solitary practice or one that is guided by a professional?

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I am curious too.
- ianai 7y ago
  Me three
tomhoward 7y ago
Everyone curious about this is welcome to email me (address in profile). If you don't hear from me, hit me up again; I'm intending to prepare a doc that explains the approach I've used. I don't want it to be too long, but I just need to find the time to do make it adequate. But if you can't wait for me to do that, reading/watching content by Bruce Lipton is a good start.
- circlefavshape 7y ago
  Uurgh, dude - it's not the emotional healing that puts scientifically-minded people off, it's Bruce Lipton's language. "The subconscious mind is operating at a vibrational frequency of theta". What? That's the kind of nonsense I get from the stoners down in my local pub. If his techniques work, they work, and I'm happy for you that you have improved your life. I, however, find such language so off-putting that I can't imagine ever trying anything like this
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Are you actually in need of this kind of help in the first place? If not, why not just ignore it and move on, rather than posting drive-by bile like this as your one-and-only contribution to the entire thread? His presentation style is not for everyone, sure. Nobody’s is. He talks in pictures and metaphors, which for many people is the most effective way to receive information. Not you? No worries! But consider that you’re only talking about persuasiveness of language/presentation for yourself, not science. The very quote you picked out to mock is perfectly valid science.

rectangletangle 7y ago

I would honestly be surprised if this kind of link didn't have at least some measurable impact, physiology is hardly decoupled (in the coding sense). It's been well established that poor mental health (loss of will to live) correlates strongly with early mortality, even when controlling for obvious variables. Though establishing the causality on that is challenging. There are lots of strange physiological links that aren't necessarily logical, due to the imperfect nature of natural selection (it strives for the local optima and "good enough," over the global optima). For instance it's well documented that consciously smiling improves mood, even though the causality is "backwards."

amelius 7y ago
> natural selection (it strives for the local optima and "good enough," over the global optima) It might also optimize for the community rather than the individual, I suppose.

Lewton 7y ago

One way that emotional healing could possibly have real positive effects on symptoms is if the symptoms are remnants from a real disease that have passed. As an analogy. When you’re stretching your muscles, you’re generally not actually elongating any part of your body, instead you’re teaching your nervous system that it’s safe to move your muscles in the range you’re stretching into. Most people get to experience acute back pain in their life, and will notice how this can cause your entire back to freeze up, even well past the point of where the actual thing that caused the pain has been healed. This is the nervous system protecting your back from hurting itself. Making it a necessary part of rehabilitation to do stretches to show your body that the range of motion is safe again. In the same kind of way, actively working on mentally overcoming symptoms that were your body’s reaction to real disease or trauma that has since passed, can have very real effects. This could be in the form of meditation, therapy or even faith healing(!) [0] [0] see derren brown talk about his experiences doing faith healing as a skeptic https://youtu.be/CCzzaDwUuDk https://youtu.be/CCzzaDwUuDk time stamp 22 minutes 18 seconds

jvln 7y ago
The analogy about muscle streching is wrong.
- SamBam 7y ago
  There's a fair bit of evidence now than most of stretching is, indeed, actually about training the body not to reflexively contract to fight the stretch. > Due to neurological safeguards against injury such as the Golgi tendon reflex, it is normally impossible for adults to stretch most muscle groups to their fullest length without training due to the activation of muscle antagonists as the muscle reaches the limit of its normal range of motion. [1] > First, they end up mostly agreeing with a body of previous research suggesting that increased range of motion following a prolonged stretching program is mainly the result of increased tolerance to the sensation of stretching, rather than actually loosening the muscle-tendon unit. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretching [2] https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20811349/does-stretching-loosen-muscles-and-tendons/ https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20811349/does-...

billman 7y ago

Have you read John Sarno?

superpermutat0r 7y ago

My partner is also heavily burdened by emotional trauma that has resulted in asthma, stomach issues, urinary tract infections (where every urinary analysis finds some other obscure bacteria, not common anywhere). The emotional trauma, constant tension, lack of meaning, depression, inability to learn anything, or learning very slowly, bad autobiographical memory, all symptoms listed in the article. I truly believe if she were to do something about the mind that stuff would get better. And I'm a very hard-science guy that reads Cochrane and doubts everything. Although, problem is that CBT does not work for her, talking with professionals does not work too. Obviously, the issues are that the bodies immune system is weakened from some stress that should not be there.

elbear 7y ago
The article also mentions that CBT does little for this kind of trauma. There are more effective treatments. They're listed towards the end.