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Google’s Play Store gives a worse age rating to Fleksy, a Gboard rival
- magashna 7y agoSeems malicious on Google's part since middle finger is official unicode
- techwizrd 7y agoI'm guessing it is more that the different teams do not talk to each other, and Google must not have a good, standard review process. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- Majromax 7y agoThat would still be institutionally malicious, if not the result of malice by any single person involved. Having a separate review system that provides different and more favourable treatment for (equivalent) internal apps is in and of itself an abuse of the store.
- julienfr112 7y agoStupidity does not play well in front of a judge, in particular if you are Google being sued by the European Comission.
- heavyset_go 7y agoNever attribute stupidity to that which is adequately explained by self-interest. It's extremely convenient that Google had an oopsie that's entirely aligned with their own interests.
- Bartweiss 7y agoI mean, this could be as simple as internal app teams not going through the same form, or not getting re-reviewed automatically because it's assumed they'll speak up if they add anything objectionable. And Fleksy's point about being targeted for their increasing use count wouldn't require intentional targeting either - that could just be an automatic "trigger an extra review when user count grows enough". Which doesn't make it acceptable, obviously. It just means that malice isn't required for unfairness - all it takes is Google fixing the dumb mistakes which hurt them faster than the ones that hurt others.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y agoLetting your own apps bypass the review process sounds pretty anti-competitive to me...
- Bartweiss 7y agoYeah, that was a weak example on my part. If they're actually skipping the normal review process, that's either malice or unreasonable negligence. And the Google Play followup of "your app is mature and should be PEGI 16" implies a human paid actual attention to this case, which makes it seem much less innocent. I guess I can imagine some special cases that wouldn't be Google treating itself differently, like triggering reviews when a publisher's largest app crosses a size threshold and assuming established publishers can trusted more generously. But honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Google just carved out an internal exception. And the PEGI 16 request goes beyond "not the same treatment as Gboard" to "objectively incorrect review outcome", so regardless something is fishy...
- MBCook 7y agoOh yeah, because if this was Apple no one would pile on. At a certain point (and both Google and Apple are big enough) it becomes their fault. You should have good enough policies. It’s been 10 years or so since the app stores launched. This isn’t new stuff anymore. It’s not untrodden territory. It’s laziness at best, and that shouldn’t keep getting excused.
- gnode 7y agoThe hypocrisy of Google notwithstanding, I'm not sure why something being included in Unicode should have any bearing on its societal acceptance or consequently its age rating. The Swastika exists as a Unicode character, yet is outlawed in Germany, along with other Nazi-associated symbols (Strafgesetzbuch section 86a).
- magashna 7y agoI believe there are contexts where it's allowed, being part of Unicode I assume wouldn't be illegal.
- gnode 7y agoWhile certain uses of the symbols are not illegal, they do have a negative effect on age ratings / classification board approvals (relevant to this discussion). A famous example, is that Wolfenstein 3D was outright refused a rating in Germany. Arguably it may have been legal as artistic use, rather than propaganda promoting an unconstitutional organization, but that was not sufficient to get a rating.
- nokcha 7y agoThe swastika symbol in Unicode is the Buddhist/Hindu swastika, not the Nazi swastika (which is tilted at 45°).
- gnode 7y agoThere are many swastika characters in Unicode, with different contexts, none of them being Nazi specifically. That's not to say that usage of any of them would inherently preclude them from being subject to section 86a.
- ozfive 7y agoNot just malicious, this is anti-competitive behavior. Something a monopoly would do.
- vzaliva 7y agoThe word "fuck" is in the dictionary. That does not mean it is universally appropriate.
- netsharc 7y agoI use Gboard, and today it had a strange prompt on the bar above the keyboard: "Do you like typing German?".. I was curious and I pressed it, it lead to a prompt where there was text I could copy paste and I guess post on my social media, about how much I enjoy using Gboard... So you fucking want me to advertise for you, Google? And for what reason? Does someone want their promotion/bonus and for that they have to reach x downloads? In fact I'm going to go to the Play Store and give them a shitty review...
- judge2020 7y agoPretty standard method to obtain new users, but I don't think Google is unable to advertise their keyboard on their own.
- __jal 7y agoPretty bullshit method. Any software that wastes my time begging me to market for them gets uninstalled, period. I don't know why anyone puts up with that.
- Chris_Chambers 7y agoDo 99% of people actually share your view, though? For example, if we went by HN comments, we’d assume there’s no way anyone would ever buy a MacBook with a Touch Bar. People don’t seem to mind being abused when they aren’t wise enough to perceive the abuse.
- CamelCaseName 7y ago>Any software that wastes my time begging me to market for them gets uninstalled, period. I hear you. I really hate prompts to post to social media myself, but companies do it because it is hard to get people interested in your product. I'm passionate about this issue because I faced this problem myself many times when trying to generate reviews for my Amazon products. It is hard, if not impossible, to compete without breaking any rules. The bottom line is, customer acquisition costs are high. In most free apps, it seems you are losing money until / unless you can reach critical adoption rates that make decrease those acquisition costs below your customer LTV. A single social media post could save the publisher $5-10 in customer acquisition costs. --- So what can be done to fix this? One idea is making reviews mandatory. There could be an optional prompt that can only be dismissed after a user has left a review. It could be a requirement to leave a review on a previous app before downloading another. Any strategy to shape how or when users leave reviews will have the potential to be gamed, and I by no means have the answer. But I think the solution to the review begging / social proof demands needs to be solved at the app store level. As it stands, established companies have a massive, massive, advantage over indie publishers. --- I could talk about this all day, so I'll leave it here, but I'm interested to here others thoughts on this: How do you balance the need for businesses to generate reviews with customer convenience? What would you change to fix this problem? Is there an opportunity for a third party fix this? --- >I don't know why anyone puts up with that. Because honestly, it's just a single click to say "no" and users are already invested in that particular app. Responsible apps should only ask once, but there are countless apps that ask every time.
- scohesc 7y agoSo Google is selectively oppressing certain app developers by using the "Rules for thee, not for me" ideology. Well, they've been doing it for years and that's why there's people in the US Government talking about anti-trust investigations... Hopefully something comes of it.
- jhall1468 7y agoGboard doesn't have in app purchases, the other one does. The rules are different because the apps are different.
- NKosmatos 7y agoWell in the article it clearly states that the age rating discrepancy between Gboard and Fleksy is due to the middle finger emoji.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago1. Google didn't say that the reason for the rating was IAP and instead pointed to something that is common between that app and Gboard. 2. Other keyboard apps have IAP but still have an E rating: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gingersoftware.android.keyboard https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gingersoft... I find it very unlikely that Google is intentionally picking on this small app, but by being more lenient in reviewing its own apps, Google is abusing its position.
- levosmetalo 7y agoDidn't install the app, but one look at the screenshot of the Fleksy in Playstore shows "earn coins as you type" feature. It also offers in app purchases, but didn't bother to install to check which. I know many apps use coin system, but in many cases it's just a children manipulation.
- djsumdog 7y agoI mean, it would be one thing if Google stated that as a reason. I really hate this in-app purchase model, and now being applied to something as stupid as a keyboard, something that can literally monitor all your data and send back your most common words to advertisers ... ugh. I pre-ordered a Purism 5 from the next batch in anger a few weeks ago. I want off this Android/eyeProduct bullshit. I want full control of my mobile device again.
- osrec 7y agoHow would your ideal open-source smartphone ecosystem be structured? Genuinely interested as I'm looking to explore this as a potential project myself with my team.
- deftnerd 7y agoFlat subscription of $10 a month for the app store. Once a month, your phone tells the store what percentage of time you spend in apps from that store. Firefox has 40% of your time? They get $4.
- dessant 7y agoWouldn't that encourage developers to create more addictive apps, add longer UI animations, and apply other tricks to increase usage time? Valuable apps that require only short interactions would certainly suffer under this scheme. Just letting developers get paid without taking a 30 percent cut, or not banning open source apps for including a Patreon link [1] would be a great start. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Drew_ 7y agoLet's not be distracted from the fact that the middle finger emoji actually exists.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoEqual representation for sign languages.
- jakemal 7y agoWhy don't you think it should exist?
- marcusverus 7y agoIt's universal sign language for "fuck you". Profanity is frowned upon.
- jakemal 7y agoI think Google should steer clear of being the morality police. It's up to people to use emojis (and words) responsibly depending on the context.
- drusepth 7y ago>At first glance a spokesman agreed with us that the situation looks odd. Seems like someone messed up somewhere and is probably being resolved. In all honesty though, no app with IAP (especially easy-to-access IAP or IAP that can't be locked by a parent) should get an E rating. Fleksy should get a higher age rating for this reason, not because of an emoji.
- jakemal 7y ago> IAP (especially easy-to-access IAP or IAP that can't be locked by a parent) should get an E rating I disagree. I think it's Google's job to provide parents with the tools to lock down IAPs for children. Once the phone is locked down, IAPs shouldn't matter. And the ratings would be useless to a parent if every app with IAPs was rated > E. They wouldn't know if the content is what is giving it the higher rating or just the IAPs.
- tssva 7y agoGoogle does provide the means to lock down IAPs for children.
- papln 7y agoHow convenient that "someone messed up", supressing installs of a competing product, with no compensation for the error. Under-12s can't have a Google Account of their own, so they can't spend money, so why would IAP be dangerous? The purchase part is behind a 13+ wall.
- njsubedi 7y agoBut, did anyone notice the totally irrelevant "get rich quick" kind of comments on the TechCrunch article? Aren't the comments there moderated?
- stevewodil 7y agoNo, those comments are everywhere on TechCrunch. There doesn't seem to be much, if any, comment moderation
- parliament32 7y agoOn a related note, does anyone have recommendations for a Gboard alternative? I've disabled all the "pipe everything I type directly to HQ for analysis" things in Gboard but I'd prefer a non-Google alternative.
- darcien 7y agoI have a pretty good experience using SwiftKey for the past few years.
- fawak 7y agoSwiftKey has been working wonders for me for years now.
- Semaphor 7y agoI switched to the AOSP keyboard because SwiftKey kept getting worse the more it learned (it always became usable again after deleting everything).
- Fnoord 7y agoIf you don't mind having source or phoning home, SwiftKey. If you're a CLI poweruser Hacker's Keyboard (FOSS) [1]. There is also Simple Keyboard (FOSS) [2] and there's a bunch of others available on F-Droid. I do wonder what we should switch to from Qwerty, on mobile specifically. There is, for example, Keybee [3]. [1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.pocketworkstation.pckeyb... [2] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/rkr.simplekeyboard.inputmethod/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/rkr.simplekeyboard.inputmeth... [3] http://keybee.it/ http://keybee.it/
- istjohn 7y agoI've been using and loving MessageEase [1] for several years now. There's a learning curve, but as much typing as I end up doing on my phone, the investment was well worth it. It's also hugely customizeable and makes coding much easier on a phone--not that I make a habit of that. [1] https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php
- QueridoGuy 7y agoI used to be a big fan of Fleksy app before the creators went to pinterest and sold their app to some company. They new devs probably didn’t know how to fix their previous bugs or work on the code itself. So they started adding new “features” , which was a toolbar for a keyboard app. Kept contacting them on fixing their error, but they just said we know it’s there. Until i switched back to Gboard. I would say, it’s probably because they added something to that toolbar. It’s always like that for most apps, especially keyboard apps. A company abandon their app, then another company buy it from them and not know how to deal with the app. The app ends up with bloatware that no one asked for and then the app gets abandoned
- mintplant 7y ago> I would say, it’s probably because they added something to that toolbar. Nope, the article states otherwise.
- jariel 7y agoAs someone with insider information into this specific situation I would simply remind you that were people willing to pay 50 cents for this app, Fleksy wouldn't have needed to sell to Pinterest and therefore would not have. I'm bothered by how pilloried I am consistently when mentioning that most of these are 'free' apps and someone, somewhere, somehow needs to pay for it. Very few 'open source' projects make good 'Products' (they help, but alone OSS is not consumer oriented). It takes work to do these things. All kinds of work. $1/download or 25 cents/month would wipe out 1/2 of consumer issues like this pretty quickly, but almost nobody wants to pay.
- TooCreative 7y agoThe crazy thing with Android and iOS software is that not only can Google and Apple reject your software now. They can kill it any time in the future. Forever. It seems nobody talks about that. As a software developer I would find it way too uncomfortable to build on a platform like that.
- NKosmatos 7y agoI understand it’s a difficult choice to leave the play store, but you’re playing by their rules, their game and in their own field. They can do whatever they want because they’re google.
- mtgx 7y agoIt's not as simple as that when Google's Play Store is its own monopoly, enforced by shady contract deals Google has made with manufacturers to ensure no alternative can exist on Android. If Google didn't do that, and any manufacturer were free to install whatever app store they wanted (even in conjunction with the Play Store), then maybe you could say that developers can just move to another store if they don't like Google's because "another store is just one click away" (the argument Google likes to make to "prove" that its search business is not a monopoly, which of course isn't true at all for app stores).
- bjt2n3904 7y agoA question: why does a keyboard need a PEGI rating? Should python 3.5 have a PEGI rating? How about vim?
- kyle-rb 7y agoPython 3.7 is rated E for Everyone by the ESRB https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/python-37/9nj46sx7x90p?activetab=pivot:overviewtab https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/python-37/9nj46sx7x90p?act...
- skybrian 7y agoThis is a tangent, but is there a good keyboard app for Android that doesn't have emoji? I'm tired of hitting the emoji button accidentally and having emoji show up in autocomplete.
- jakemal 7y agoSwiftkey has a setting to remove the dedicated emoji key.
- mackrevinack 7y agoI have the emoji key turned off but they still show up when you long press the enter key which I somehow manage to do a lot
- gregschlom 7y agoI was just thinking I should look into making one if there isn't one, seems like there would be market for a good, simple keyboard app.
- wolco 7y agoI've been using 'keyboard with ctrl key' and couldn't code on my phone without it.
- mackrevinack 7y agowhat about anysoft keyboard? it might be a better idea to improve that since it's open source and it needs a bit of work. I would switch over to it today if the swipe typing was better but its currently "in beta" and that's a bit of an understatement tbh. in my experience the predictions are wrong 80% of the time
- mackrevinack 7y agothat really makes my blood boil every time it happens
- Grimm665 7y ago
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoDoes Slack have the same rating? It has its own emoji system, including the standard middle-finger.
- yegle 7y agoThis rating is based on a questionnaire: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/188189?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
- mlyle 7y agoSomeone didn't read the article: > Fleksy’s team have done so over the years — and come up with the PEGI 3 rating without issue. But this month they found they were being issued the questionnaire multiple times and then that their latest app update was blocked without explanation — meaning they had to reach out to Play Developer Support to ask what was going wrong. > After some email back and forth with support staff they were told that the app contained age inappropriate emoji content. Here’s what Google wrote: > > During review, we found that the content rating is not accurate for your app… Content ratings are used to inform consumers, especially parents, of potentially objectionable content that exists within an app. > > For example, we found that your app contains content (e.g. emoji) that is not appropriate for all ages. Please refer to the attached screenshot. Google is apparently upset that the app contains a middle finger emoji. Which GBoard also contains. GBoard is rated 3+, not 12+/16+.
- ozfive 7y agoThis is pure anti-competitive and monopolistic action. This is another instance that needs to be noted down for the current investigation into Google, Facebook and others. Period.
- Mindwipe 7y agoWay past time to ban app stores.
- smilekzs 7y agoCurious: How effective would it be to separate only the app store from Google/Apple, when it comes to this rating problem? Perhaps not even the infrastructure --- I'd imagine even just having an independent group of reviewers / rule enforcers would make the situation much less absurd?
- ozim 7y agoSo you maybe want to nationalize app stores? Getting european app store, managed by EU. Then US store managed by US government... It is also as bad, but on the other hand I think internet infrastructure like app stores and all the other stuff should also be treated like roads in the end. But government sucks with managing money :/
- vzaliva 7y ago"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think is most likely inconsistent reviewing. I've seen this with Apple, as well as with Google. The apps stores need to have very clear guidelines and well-defined appeal process, possibly with 3rd party arbitration.
- papln 7y agoShades of "We do not support competitors' products." Malign neglect -- build a regulatory system that is valid in principle, but it implemented in a complex enough way that it tends to fail often, which has a tendency to scare off consumers, and subject everyone except yourself to it. People will tend to choose your product to avoid the hassle. You see it everywhere, from non-Pixel Android phones trying to keep with new OS versions, to Windows and MacOS API churn and "secret APIs".
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]