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I don't understand being unhappy with your ISP knowing these things, but being fine with your VPN provider knowing them.

rglullis 7y ago
It is much easier to change VPN provider than your ISP.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  What does that have to do with them knowing what websites you visit?
  - gruez 7y ago
    The implication is that if they're doing shady shit, you can easily switch, in contrast to ISPs.
    - xorcist 7y ago
      On the other hand you will have lesser knowledge of what shady things your VPN provider does.
sauwan 7y ago
Because it's easy to change a VPN provider if you don't like their actions, but most of us are stuck with an ISP and have no control over what they do with our data?
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  What exactly can they be doing with your data other than selling a list of which DNS queries you make and which IP addresses you connect to? (Which the VPN provider can also do.)
  - sixothree 7y ago
    Send me your browsing history and your location history and we can continue this conversation.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    Where did location history come into this? (IP addresses are generally not correlated to location at much more than city level.) My point is simply that using a VPN provider doesn't change the fact that an actor has access to your DNS queries and which IPs you connect to (and where you connect from). It just changes that actor from your ISP to a VPN provider, and most VPN providers seem a hell of a lot more shady than any ISP I've dealt with.
  - neom 7y ago
    I'm currently sitting on a plane. gogo wifi can read all my email if they so chose (and pass to a government). I'll use a VPN.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      Any major email provider at this point should have SSL enabled when you check your email.
      - neom 7y ago
        Shame they're (still) spoofing certs. https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/gogo-creates-fake-ssl-tls-certificates-so-it-can-block-video-streaming.html https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/gogo-creates-fake-ssl-t... https://www.zdnet.com/article/gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-serving-spoofed-ssl-certificates/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-serving-s... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/at-feds-request-gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-service-added-more-spying-capabilities/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/at-feds-request-...
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        The browser (as should your email client) appears to have rejected those certs.
raxxorrax 7y ago
I can use a VPN provider outside the jurisdiction of my own country.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  If you're doing something illegal in your own country, that seems like a good idea. If you're not, that would seem to achieve nothing other than making it much more difficult to enforce any action against the VPN provider for selling your private data.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    If my VPN provider trades user data, the service will quickly deteriorate and it won't be a VPN provider for long. But even if that is the case it wouldn't be my primary concern. I don't even live in a country were I have to fear much at all from malicious authorities, but they wouldn't even blink before trading privacy for perceived security. I might change my opinion if there were actual consequences for sharing user data. I believe it when I see it. Otherwise I just like privacy, information is power and I don't like to share with the state.
  - panarky 7y ago
    In the US at least, there still remain a few tatters of laws that control how law enforcement and intelligence agencies can surveil you. But there are zero controls on US agencies hoovering up data indiscriminately outside US borders.
catalogia 7y ago
Well your ISP knows more about you than your VPN necessarily does. Your ISP probably has your credit card on file, with your real name, and they have your precise street address too. The VPN may have none of that, except your IP address. If somebody were to purchase your history from your VPN, they would have to also purchase the IP->name/address/etc mapping from your ISP and JOIN the two. That seems marginally better than a one stop shop. (Of course, some people give their VPN their credit card info, so the above rationale doesn't apply for them.)
juped 7y ago
Because they're required to reply to subpoenas?
el_cujo 7y ago
I feel like the only good reasons to use a VPN are if you're torrenting or if you want access to sites from different countries (foreign Netflix libraries, streams from state-run media channels, etc). Most VPNs worth a damn aren't going to sell you out just for torrenting movies/music/games while your ISP will.
pwfcurry 7y ago
Well then youre an idiot
- oopsies49 7y ago
  Classy

rglullis 7y ago

It is much easier to change VPN provider than your ISP.

_-___________-_ 7y ago
What does that have to do with them knowing what websites you visit?
- gruez 7y ago
  The implication is that if they're doing shady shit, you can easily switch, in contrast to ISPs.
  - xorcist 7y ago
    On the other hand you will have lesser knowledge of what shady things your VPN provider does.

sauwan 7y ago

Because it's easy to change a VPN provider if you don't like their actions, but most of us are stuck with an ISP and have no control over what they do with our data?

_-___________-_ 7y ago
What exactly can they be doing with your data other than selling a list of which DNS queries you make and which IP addresses you connect to? (Which the VPN provider can also do.)
- sixothree 7y ago
  Send me your browsing history and your location history and we can continue this conversation.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Where did location history come into this? (IP addresses are generally not correlated to location at much more than city level.) My point is simply that using a VPN provider doesn't change the fact that an actor has access to your DNS queries and which IPs you connect to (and where you connect from). It just changes that actor from your ISP to a VPN provider, and most VPN providers seem a hell of a lot more shady than any ISP I've dealt with.
- neom 7y ago
  I'm currently sitting on a plane. gogo wifi can read all my email if they so chose (and pass to a government). I'll use a VPN.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Any major email provider at this point should have SSL enabled when you check your email.
    - neom 7y ago
      Shame they're (still) spoofing certs. https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/gogo-creates-fake-ssl-tls-certificates-so-it-can-block-video-streaming.html https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/gogo-creates-fake-ssl-t... https://www.zdnet.com/article/gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-serving-spoofed-ssl-certificates/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-serving-s... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/at-feds-request-gogo-in-flight-wi-fi-service-added-more-spying-capabilities/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/at-feds-request-...
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        The browser (as should your email client) appears to have rejected those certs.

raxxorrax 7y ago

I can use a VPN provider outside the jurisdiction of my own country.

_-___________-_ 7y ago
If you're doing something illegal in your own country, that seems like a good idea. If you're not, that would seem to achieve nothing other than making it much more difficult to enforce any action against the VPN provider for selling your private data.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  If my VPN provider trades user data, the service will quickly deteriorate and it won't be a VPN provider for long. But even if that is the case it wouldn't be my primary concern. I don't even live in a country were I have to fear much at all from malicious authorities, but they wouldn't even blink before trading privacy for perceived security. I might change my opinion if there were actual consequences for sharing user data. I believe it when I see it. Otherwise I just like privacy, information is power and I don't like to share with the state.
- panarky 7y ago
  In the US at least, there still remain a few tatters of laws that control how law enforcement and intelligence agencies can surveil you. But there are zero controls on US agencies hoovering up data indiscriminately outside US borders.

catalogia 7y ago

Well your ISP knows more about you than your VPN necessarily does. Your ISP probably has your credit card on file, with your real name, and they have your precise street address too. The VPN may have none of that, except your IP address. If somebody were to purchase your history from your VPN, they would have to also purchase the IP->name/address/etc mapping from your ISP and JOIN the two. That seems marginally better than a one stop shop. (Of course, some people give their VPN their credit card info, so the above rationale doesn't apply for them.)

juped 7y ago

Because they're required to reply to subpoenas?

el_cujo 7y ago

I feel like the only good reasons to use a VPN are if you're torrenting or if you want access to sites from different countries (foreign Netflix libraries, streams from state-run media channels, etc). Most VPNs worth a damn aren't going to sell you out just for torrenting movies/music/games while your ISP will.

pwfcurry 7y ago

Well then youre an idiot

oopsies49 7y ago
Classy