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I'm surprised! Where I live you're safe from the red light camera if your front-two tires are over the white line when the light changes to red. Sounds like in

I'm surprised! Where I live you're safe from the red light camera if your front-two tires are over the white line when the light changes to red. Sounds like in Oregon you're only safe if you're out of the intersection when it turns red, which seems entirely absurd, especially for tourists / newcomers to the area. How am I supposed to know how quickly your yellow light changes on this street?

jnty 7y ago
Yes this is bizarre - it's the same in the UK, where crossing the stop line on red is the offence. Often in cities traffic will continue through the amber light so you often have to turn on red to clear the junction. (Pedestrian lights are generally timed to account for this.) What if an obstruction appears in the road - a pedestrian or a u-turning car? Are you just meant to plow into them?
- inanutshellus 7y ago
  > What if an obstruction appears in the road - a pedestrian or a u-turning car? Are you just meant to plow into them? I'm guessing you're supposed to get the robot-generated penalty, get your court date, take the day off of work, and plead your blindingly-obvious case to the court. ..... /or/ they could change to make the offense fire if you enter the intersection illegally instead of exit "illegally". :-\ Completely nutty.
  - bitexploder 7y ago
    Many municipalities make them non-moving violations and won’t even let you appear in court for them. It is an outright scam.
    - yaur 7y ago
      A friend of mine got one of these and if you read carefully they aren't really even "tickets" though they try hard to obscure that. AFAICT the only real recourse the company that issues these "violations" has if you don't pay is to pursue them through ordinary collections, which I suspect would be difficult if you were to dispute the "debt."
- alextingle 7y ago
  > Often in cities traffic will continue through the amber light "London green" we call it.
  - swish_bob 7y ago
    You should try Amsterdam if you think it's bad in London ...
pintxo 7y ago
Interesting rule. In Germany there is a 1 second grace period after the light switches to red. And apparently, even if your tires crossed the stop line after the 1st second, you will not get a ticket if the photo series shows you did not move across the intersection. Urban rumors are that some taxi drivers used this to empty the (physical) film rolls on the cameras by slowly rolling forward and back across the line past the 1 second rule. I guess this does not work so well with digital storage.
- lqet 7y ago
  > And apparently, even if your tires crossed the stop line after the 1st second, you will not get a ticket if the photo series shows you did not move across the intersection. Indeed. For many years, there was a nasty traffic light in the Stuttgart city center (at the Main Station) which was guarded by a traffic camera. It was positioned inside a very sharp turn, and it was very difficult to notice that the light was changing to red if you were already on a position of the road which was too close to the intersection to see the large overhead traffic lights, but too far away to see the small traffic light at the side of the road. I remember my father sometimes only coming to a stop a meter past the traffic light, which always triggered the camera. It never resulted in a ticket, though, as he was standing and not moving.
  - close04 7y ago
    The reason is also that when the camera captures such an event an actual person gets to look at it and take the final decision, instead of just acting like a robot and dispatching the fine. They will use common sense to decide whether it was a punishable offense. This is also the reason why it's never a good idea to flip off the camera. A court decided that looking at pictures of people showing the finger would have an emotional impact on the person analyzing them later so the fine in this case is much greater.
- epse 7y ago
  Lots and lots of speed and traffic light cameras still use film rolls
jimktrains2 7y ago
I always thought there should be some line, marking, or sign that conveyed "if the light turns yellow before this line, at the posted speed limit you will not make the light" because it can be a hard call most of the time.
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  In Canada at least, some intersections (generally on major thoroughfares) have a “prepare to stop” light well ahead of the traffic light. If that light is flashing, the traffic light will be yellow or red by time you get to it. Of course, some people use this light as a reason to floor it to try to make the light...
  - dsego 7y ago
    Newer traffic lights where I live will flash the green light for a few seconds before turning amber.
    - jhoechtl 7y ago
      We have that in Austria since decades. It works great. They tried without the green flashing but reverted a couple of years back to flashing.
achow 7y ago
You are right. Particularly because red light works in tandem with other lights at the crossing. When light turns red, it does not mean other light in the crossing turns green immediately. At the crossing for sometime all the lights should be red, to cover the case of signal change after a vehicle has entered the crossing.
kevin_b_er 7y ago
You are not supposed to know. You are supposed to be an income source for American Traffic Solutions, Redflex Traffic Systems, and the city in question. It isn't about safety anymore. It is about money. Cities are known across the country to make yellow timing extra short to increase the money. https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho...
- droopyEyelids 7y ago
  The most damning evidence for your perspective is how the cameras are basically hidden, painted black, made inconspicuous. If red light cameras were about safety, the addition of warning signs "Red Light Camera Intersection" ahead of the lights would drastically reduce the amount of dangerous behavior. That isn't how the incentives work, though. Instead they hide them, throwing away the powerful deterrent they've created, in an attempt to make money from the unwary.
  - kayfox 7y ago
    To clarify, the one the guy in the article is complaining about is not hidden, has been there for something like 15 years, and has plenty of signage warning about it. It was also an intersection that had tons of accidents from people running the light before the camera was installed.
    - olyjohn 7y ago
      You wanna know what reduces red-light related accidents more than cameras? Increasing the duration of the yellow light. https://saferstreetsla.org/679/case-studies-longer-yellow-light-times-improve-safety/ https://saferstreetsla.org/679/case-studies-longer-yellow-li... Also increasing yellow light duration is significantly cheaper than contracting out a network of cameras to a vendor who takes over half the revenue from each ticket.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
macintux 7y ago
(Ignore this: clearly my memory is flawed. Indiana doesn’t actually say anything about yellow lights, either about the requirement to be out before it turns red or stopping safely if possible.) Here in Indiana you’re supposed to stop on yellow if you can safely. That’s hard to judge for law enforcement but an easy rule for drivers to follow, if they would in fact do so. Doesn’t matter then how long the yellow light is.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  Indiana has some silly law about signaling 200ft before a turn on rural roads rather than the normal 100ft. The local cops around IN highway 55 camp out, dinging people for this because the state highway signs are hard to distinguish from a 55MPH speed limit sign at that distance. Never mind if there's nobody else there to see you make your ridiculously unsafe turn.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I didn’t know that, and in fact it’s worse: 300’ if you’re in a zone with a limit of at least 50mph. https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-9-motor-vehicles/in-code-sect-9-21-8-25.html https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-9-motor-vehicles/in-code-...
    - fredophile 7y ago
      Seems reasonable to me. 50 mph is 264000 feet per hour. This converts to 73.3 feet per second. 300' means you need to signal about four seconds before turning or changing lanes.
      - 1123581321 7y ago
        Before turning, the time would be more like 8 seconds due to the need to slow down. It’s too long to be reasonable. And too much pressure to strictly adhere to the law would create perverse incentives to temporarily drop below 50MPH before signaling and to keep the signal constantly on in case one wants to pass a car. It’s better to have a reasonable law that’s easy to follow to foster a culture of high compliance rates.
yonran 7y ago
When you drive in a new state, it’s good to look up whether the state is “permissive yellow” (e.g. California and Washington) vs “restrictive yellow” (e.g. Oregon) as well as whether it allows “right turn on red”.
- nomel 7y ago
  A "restrictive yellow" light would be paired nicely with a speed trap, to increase revenue, since people will be monetarily motivated to "floor it" to avoid fees.
- aidenn0 7y ago
  List of "restrictive yellow" states source[1]: Iowa Michigan Mississippi Nebraska New Jersey Oregon Virginia Wisconsin 1: www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf
- swish_bob 7y ago
  Wait, "right turn on red" is a state-by-state law? It's been a while since I drove in the States, but I always thought this was the rule everywhere.
  - bzbarsky 7y ago
    All traffic laws are state-by-state (or even more local) in the US, in general. In practice, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#North_America everywhere in the US has had right turn on red unless otherwise signed since 1980. Except for New York City, apparently...
    - swish_bob 7y ago
      So, given the limited set of US States I've driven in, I don't appear to have been guilty of any violations. Thanks.
Zimahl 7y ago
I live in Beaverton, OR. I'm not a fan of red light cameras but it's not that easy to get a red light ticket. We only have 4 intersections that have red light cameras[0], and they were put in because of the egregious abuse of the intersections. To get a red light ticket you would've had to either ignore or respond to a yellow light way later than anyone would agree is acceptable. There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insane. Mr. Jarlstrom's wife may have been an outlier for the hardware and software that calculates the tickets. But, overall, the system is catching folks who are breaking the law. [0]: https://beavertonpolice.org/204/Photo-Enforcement https://beavertonpolice.org/204/Photo-Enforcement
- unreal37 7y ago
  I bet adding less than 1 extra second to the length of the yellow light will reduce accidents in those intersections too. What he's doing to fix the problem seems fair. Reducing the accidents (injuries and damages) is better than catching more people.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insan Well then maybe they should increase the time available for a left turn instead of using it as an opportunity to collect revenue.
- krustyburger 7y ago
  I spend a lot of time in Beaverton and have had quite a few close calls as a pedestrian. There’s something about the way they teach driving in Washington County...
  - Zimahl 7y ago
    It's the lackadaisical suburbs. Distracted drivers all over the place.
- davengh 7y ago
  > There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insane. Sounds like targeted enforcement at those intersections is called for.
jiveturkey 7y ago
> How am I supposed to know how quickly your yellow light changes on this street? Does it matter? If you're a tourist/newcomer, simply don't try to make it through a yellow light just because you can. If you can stop, do so. In Oregon, it's not absurd to be safe only when out of the intersection. As a "restrictive yellow" state, the yellow cycle time includes the time to completely clear the intersection. IOW, the yellow cycle time is longer than it would be otherwise. Yes, without understanding that the yellow times are longer, it would seem absurd.
- userbinator 7y ago
  Does it matter? If you're a tourist/newcomer, simply don't try to make it through a yellow light just because you can. If you can stop, do so. That may get you rear-ended or barely so, because the driver behind may be accustomed to the usual traffic of the area going through, and perhaps he may be the one who should stop, but is not expecting you to.
  - jiveturkey 7y ago
    So you are recommending to anyone new to an area, race through the yellows? To avoid accidents??
    - userbinator 7y ago
      Look at what the other drivers do, and of course look behind you.
xenocyon 7y ago
The goal of the red light is to keep folks out of an intersection so that cross-traffic and pedestrians can proceed. Furthermore, in congested traffic, blocking the intersection can lead to massive gridlock.
ppiuser 7y ago
Or when that bus or truck in front of you is on its 5th gear change and still only halfway through the intersection when the light starts changing.
neves 7y ago
The law says that you should stop at a yellow light. The yellow light is an announcement that it will become red, so a though break isn't necessary. Sure a classic law/solution that doesn't consider how humans beings think :-)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gnicholas 7y ago
In CA, my understanding is that you have to have "entered the intersection" before the light turns red. The problem is, I've never known if that means entered the crosswalk or passed through the crosswalk and entered the rest of the intersection.
- qwhelan 7y ago
  The crosswalk is not part of the intersection, so it's the latter definition. For example, blocking a crosswalk and blocking an intersection are separate offenses.
romwell 7y ago
>How am I supposed to know how quickly your yellow light changes on this street? As a driver, you are not supposed to know this, nor should you base your driving based on this information. It's simple: if you have enough distance to stop, you stop[1]. The yellow light is supposed to be timed so that people who don't have the distance to stop when going the speed limit would have enough time to legally pass the intersection[2]. The engineer's case (and many others) is that the lights are adjusted specifically so that this does not happen, i.e. people on a certain stretch of a road have are forced to cross on red if they don't decelerate unsafely. ------------- [1] Your stopping distance only depends on your speed, road conditions, and reaction time. [2]http://redlightrobber.com/red/links_pdf/Derivation-of-the-Yellow-Change-Interval-Formula.pdf http://redlightrobber.com/red/links_pdf/Derivation-of-the-Ye...

jnty 7y ago

Yes this is bizarre - it's the same in the UK, where crossing the stop line on red is the offence. Often in cities traffic will continue through the amber light so you often have to turn on red to clear the junction. (Pedestrian lights are generally timed to account for this.) What if an obstruction appears in the road - a pedestrian or a u-turning car? Are you just meant to plow into them?

inanutshellus 7y ago
> What if an obstruction appears in the road - a pedestrian or a u-turning car? Are you just meant to plow into them? I'm guessing you're supposed to get the robot-generated penalty, get your court date, take the day off of work, and plead your blindingly-obvious case to the court. ..... /or/ they could change to make the offense fire if you enter the intersection illegally instead of exit "illegally". :-\ Completely nutty.
- bitexploder 7y ago
  Many municipalities make them non-moving violations and won’t even let you appear in court for them. It is an outright scam.
  - yaur 7y ago
    A friend of mine got one of these and if you read carefully they aren't really even "tickets" though they try hard to obscure that. AFAICT the only real recourse the company that issues these "violations" has if you don't pay is to pursue them through ordinary collections, which I suspect would be difficult if you were to dispute the "debt."
alextingle 7y ago
> Often in cities traffic will continue through the amber light "London green" we call it.
- swish_bob 7y ago
  You should try Amsterdam if you think it's bad in London ...

pintxo 7y ago

Interesting rule. In Germany there is a 1 second grace period after the light switches to red. And apparently, even if your tires crossed the stop line after the 1st second, you will not get a ticket if the photo series shows you did not move across the intersection. Urban rumors are that some taxi drivers used this to empty the (physical) film rolls on the cameras by slowly rolling forward and back across the line past the 1 second rule. I guess this does not work so well with digital storage.

lqet 7y ago
> And apparently, even if your tires crossed the stop line after the 1st second, you will not get a ticket if the photo series shows you did not move across the intersection. Indeed. For many years, there was a nasty traffic light in the Stuttgart city center (at the Main Station) which was guarded by a traffic camera. It was positioned inside a very sharp turn, and it was very difficult to notice that the light was changing to red if you were already on a position of the road which was too close to the intersection to see the large overhead traffic lights, but too far away to see the small traffic light at the side of the road. I remember my father sometimes only coming to a stop a meter past the traffic light, which always triggered the camera. It never resulted in a ticket, though, as he was standing and not moving.
- close04 7y ago
  The reason is also that when the camera captures such an event an actual person gets to look at it and take the final decision, instead of just acting like a robot and dispatching the fine. They will use common sense to decide whether it was a punishable offense. This is also the reason why it's never a good idea to flip off the camera. A court decided that looking at pictures of people showing the finger would have an emotional impact on the person analyzing them later so the fine in this case is much greater.
epse 7y ago
Lots and lots of speed and traffic light cameras still use film rolls

jimktrains2 7y ago

I always thought there should be some line, marking, or sign that conveyed "if the light turns yellow before this line, at the posted speed limit you will not make the light" because it can be a hard call most of the time.

tonyarkles 7y ago
In Canada at least, some intersections (generally on major thoroughfares) have a “prepare to stop” light well ahead of the traffic light. If that light is flashing, the traffic light will be yellow or red by time you get to it. Of course, some people use this light as a reason to floor it to try to make the light...
- dsego 7y ago
  Newer traffic lights where I live will flash the green light for a few seconds before turning amber.
  - jhoechtl 7y ago
    We have that in Austria since decades. It works great. They tried without the green flashing but reverted a couple of years back to flashing.

achow 7y ago

You are right. Particularly because red light works in tandem with other lights at the crossing. When light turns red, it does not mean other light in the crossing turns green immediately. At the crossing for sometime all the lights should be red, to cover the case of signal change after a vehicle has entered the crossing.

kevin_b_er 7y ago

You are not supposed to know. You are supposed to be an income source for American Traffic Solutions, Redflex Traffic Systems, and the city in question. It isn't about safety anymore. It is about money. Cities are known across the country to make yellow timing extra short to increase the money. https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/ https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho...

droopyEyelids 7y ago
The most damning evidence for your perspective is how the cameras are basically hidden, painted black, made inconspicuous. If red light cameras were about safety, the addition of warning signs "Red Light Camera Intersection" ahead of the lights would drastically reduce the amount of dangerous behavior. That isn't how the incentives work, though. Instead they hide them, throwing away the powerful deterrent they've created, in an attempt to make money from the unwary.
- kayfox 7y ago
  To clarify, the one the guy in the article is complaining about is not hidden, has been there for something like 15 years, and has plenty of signage warning about it. It was also an intersection that had tons of accidents from people running the light before the camera was installed.
  - olyjohn 7y ago
    You wanna know what reduces red-light related accidents more than cameras? Increasing the duration of the yellow light. https://saferstreetsla.org/679/case-studies-longer-yellow-light-times-improve-safety/ https://saferstreetsla.org/679/case-studies-longer-yellow-li... Also increasing yellow light duration is significantly cheaper than contracting out a network of cameras to a vendor who takes over half the revenue from each ticket.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago

macintux 7y ago

(Ignore this: clearly my memory is flawed. Indiana doesn’t actually say anything about yellow lights, either about the requirement to be out before it turns red or stopping safely if possible.) Here in Indiana you’re supposed to stop on yellow if you can safely. That’s hard to judge for law enforcement but an easy rule for drivers to follow, if they would in fact do so. Doesn’t matter then how long the yellow light is.

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
Indiana has some silly law about signaling 200ft before a turn on rural roads rather than the normal 100ft. The local cops around IN highway 55 camp out, dinging people for this because the state highway signs are hard to distinguish from a 55MPH speed limit sign at that distance. Never mind if there's nobody else there to see you make your ridiculously unsafe turn.
- macintux 7y ago
  I didn’t know that, and in fact it’s worse: 300’ if you’re in a zone with a limit of at least 50mph. https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-9-motor-vehicles/in-code-sect-9-21-8-25.html https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-9-motor-vehicles/in-code-...
  - fredophile 7y ago
    Seems reasonable to me. 50 mph is 264000 feet per hour. This converts to 73.3 feet per second. 300' means you need to signal about four seconds before turning or changing lanes.
    - 1123581321 7y ago
      Before turning, the time would be more like 8 seconds due to the need to slow down. It’s too long to be reasonable. And too much pressure to strictly adhere to the law would create perverse incentives to temporarily drop below 50MPH before signaling and to keep the signal constantly on in case one wants to pass a car. It’s better to have a reasonable law that’s easy to follow to foster a culture of high compliance rates.

yonran 7y ago

When you drive in a new state, it’s good to look up whether the state is “permissive yellow” (e.g. California and Washington) vs “restrictive yellow” (e.g. Oregon) as well as whether it allows “right turn on red”.

nomel 7y ago
A "restrictive yellow" light would be paired nicely with a speed trap, to increase revenue, since people will be monetarily motivated to "floor it" to avoid fees.
aidenn0 7y ago
List of "restrictive yellow" states source[1]: Iowa Michigan Mississippi Nebraska New Jersey Oregon Virginia Wisconsin 1: www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf
swish_bob 7y ago
Wait, "right turn on red" is a state-by-state law? It's been a while since I drove in the States, but I always thought this was the rule everywhere.
- bzbarsky 7y ago
  All traffic laws are state-by-state (or even more local) in the US, in general. In practice, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#North_America everywhere in the US has had right turn on red unless otherwise signed since 1980. Except for New York City, apparently...
  - swish_bob 7y ago
    So, given the limited set of US States I've driven in, I don't appear to have been guilty of any violations. Thanks.

Zimahl 7y ago

I live in Beaverton, OR. I'm not a fan of red light cameras but it's not that easy to get a red light ticket. We only have 4 intersections that have red light cameras[0], and they were put in because of the egregious abuse of the intersections. To get a red light ticket you would've had to either ignore or respond to a yellow light way later than anyone would agree is acceptable. There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insane. Mr. Jarlstrom's wife may have been an outlier for the hardware and software that calculates the tickets. But, overall, the system is catching folks who are breaking the law. [0]: https://beavertonpolice.org/204/Photo-Enforcement https://beavertonpolice.org/204/Photo-Enforcement

unreal37 7y ago
I bet adding less than 1 extra second to the length of the yellow light will reduce accidents in those intersections too. What he's doing to fix the problem seems fair. Reducing the accidents (injuries and damages) is better than catching more people.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insan Well then maybe they should increase the time available for a left turn instead of using it as an opportunity to collect revenue.
krustyburger 7y ago
I spend a lot of time in Beaverton and have had quite a few close calls as a pedestrian. There’s something about the way they teach driving in Washington County...
- Zimahl 7y ago
  It's the lackadaisical suburbs. Distracted drivers all over the place.
davengh 7y ago
> There are intersections here where 3 or 4 cars will continue to turn on a red signal - it's insane. Sounds like targeted enforcement at those intersections is called for.

jiveturkey 7y ago

> How am I supposed to know how quickly your yellow light changes on this street? Does it matter? If you're a tourist/newcomer, simply don't try to make it through a yellow light just because you can. If you can stop, do so. In Oregon, it's not absurd to be safe only when out of the intersection. As a "restrictive yellow" state, the yellow cycle time includes the time to completely clear the intersection. IOW, the yellow cycle time is longer than it would be otherwise. Yes, without understanding that the yellow times are longer, it would seem absurd.

userbinator 7y ago
Does it matter? If you're a tourist/newcomer, simply don't try to make it through a yellow light just because you can. If you can stop, do so. That may get you rear-ended or barely so, because the driver behind may be accustomed to the usual traffic of the area going through, and perhaps he may be the one who should stop, but is not expecting you to.
- jiveturkey 7y ago
  So you are recommending to anyone new to an area, race through the yellows? To avoid accidents??
  - userbinator 7y ago
    Look at what the other drivers do, and of course look behind you.

xenocyon 7y ago

The goal of the red light is to keep folks out of an intersection so that cross-traffic and pedestrians can proceed. Furthermore, in congested traffic, blocking the intersection can lead to massive gridlock.

ppiuser 7y ago

Or when that bus or truck in front of you is on its 5th gear change and still only halfway through the intersection when the light starts changing.

neves 7y ago

The law says that you should stop at a yellow light. The yellow light is an announcement that it will become red, so a though break isn't necessary. Sure a classic law/solution that doesn't consider how humans beings think :-)

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gnicholas 7y ago

In CA, my understanding is that you have to have "entered the intersection" before the light turns red. The problem is, I've never known if that means entered the crosswalk or passed through the crosswalk and entered the rest of the intersection.

qwhelan 7y ago
The crosswalk is not part of the intersection, so it's the latter definition. For example, blocking a crosswalk and blocking an intersection are separate offenses.

romwell 7y ago

>How am I supposed to know how quickly your yellow light changes on this street? As a driver, you are not supposed to know this, nor should you base your driving based on this information. It's simple: if you have enough distance to stop, you stop[1]. The yellow light is supposed to be timed so that people who don't have the distance to stop when going the speed limit would have enough time to legally pass the intersection[2]. The engineer's case (and many others) is that the lights are adjusted specifically so that this does not happen, i.e. people on a certain stretch of a road have are forced to cross on red if they don't decelerate unsafely. ------------- [1] Your stopping distance only depends on your speed, road conditions, and reaction time. [2]http://redlightrobber.com/red/links_pdf/Derivation-of-the-Yellow-Change-Interval-Formula.pdf http://redlightrobber.com/red/links_pdf/Derivation-of-the-Ye...