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An electric crate motor you can drop into your car

416 points by hourislate 7y ago

Quequau 7y ago
If it were possible to convert an old econo-box compact car to electric for a reasonable price with roughly the same sort of effort and knowledge as it takes to do an engine swap (which I can and have done several times) I'd do it. I don't care about range beyond what it takes for me to get from home to work and back again, with the occasional stop at a super market and I don't care about performance beyond what it takes to properly merge into traffic like competent driver. On the occasion that find myself in need of some other sort of car for some special purpose I can rent something appropriate for that.
- bob1029 7y ago
  The difference between this and a typical engine swap is that the car was never intended to be run this way. Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? How are you going to manage charging these things? What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Do you want regenerative braking? What sort of range is required? Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? What about oil level gauge? Any other internal electronics? How are you going to drive an A/C compressor or is this no longer a concern either? Hydraulic/vacuum assist steering/brakes? There are new problems to solve with this approach. It's certainly not going to be a straightforward process compared to a factory engine swap. There will probably be some body work involved. You will probably have to fabricate completely custom parts to get certain things to work together. I don't see this as a reasonable solution for existing gasoline powered cars. It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that.
  - codingdave 7y ago
    > Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? No, batteries are larger. People tend to use the trunks for batteries, or convert pickups and put them in the beds. > Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? It can, which most people deal with by placing the batteries carefully to maintain the same balance as before. > How are you going to manage charging these things? Most people put the charging plug where the gas cap was. > What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Same as if your engine explodes. Safety is a concern in any car. Problems can happen in any car. Most DIY EVs put a cutoff switch, or even a main line you can literally cut right next to the driver as a final safety net in case of extreme emergencies. Better to kill the car than a person. Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? Most people replace the gauges with new ones more applicable to the new information they'll need. I know you had other questions, but it has been 10 years since I dabbling this space, and I don't remember every detail. But yes, there absolutely are new problems to solve. And people have been solving them for 20+ years now. There are books written on it, so if you truly want to know the answers, go read some of the books. Most of your questions either have easy answers, or are just a matter of making a choice between a few options. The hard part is not putting together a working EV system. Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission, because it often meant a custom designed, and custom machined mounting plate. So again, you are correct that it is more than an engine swap, but not to the scale you are describing.
    - 40four 7y ago
      Funny how many folks wondering where to put the batteries, trunk seems so obvious after you hear it :) Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission Seems like this product is trying to solve that problem. Sounds like a big upgrade from what is currently available to people interested in these type of projects.
      - Shivetya 7y ago
        except of course most trunks have load limits which batteries can quickly exceed. I find it disappointing how quick they are to dismiss issues with ruptured batteries by falling back on "well gas explodes" not acknowledging the issue of environmental and personal danger batteries create that require special handling sure you can cram batteries here and there but the reason for the skate board layout companies have adopted that is to have management of weight, ease of manufacturing, sufficient space for range needs, and more.
  - jimnotgym 7y ago
    Somehow I can't imagine driving an A/C compressor is high on the list of needs for classic mini owners. Or indeed, as also mentioned in the article, the owner of a Caterham. The Caterham has a kind of A/C that does not require a compressor, and since they are designed to be built from kits, I can't imagine the other things you mention will trouble them either.
    - Quequau 7y ago
      I would just like to observe that all these sorts of belt or vacuum powered accessories (A/C & Heat, power steering, power brakes) now have all electric alternatives that can be mounted anywhere they will fit so packaging becomes a much more flexible proposition as compared to belt driven accessories.
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    Go to EV west and look at what they are doing. California hot rod culture is alive and well.
    - auxym 7y ago
      EV West is what I thought of when I read the headline. I bought one of these kits a year ago (for work): https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS About the same power as the article. It's a newer kit, but NetGain have been at it for years, so I'm not sure what exactly is new? The Hyper-9 is a nice kit, by the way :)
      - jamiek88 7y ago
        I've got a mini cooper S that I'm thinking of converting to BEV. That hyper9 kit is nice! Glad to hear that someone has experience of using them and recommends them.
      - elihu 7y ago
        Nice, I have one of those on order right now. (The high-voltage double-ended version.) The reason I'm going with the double-ended shaft might be interesting to some people here who might be thinking of doing the same thing. The car I'm converting (Mazda RX-8) has a gear-like thing with a magnetic sensor mounted on one end of the crankshaft, and the ECU uses that to figure out the crankshaft speed and orientation. When people swap engines, they usually transfer that device to the new engine, so that the ECU is (sort of) tricked into thinking the engine is still there and it generates all the right can-bus messages to the rest of the car. I haven't tried this yet myself, but I gather that it's the easiest way to get the anti-lock brake system, the power steering, and the tachometer to work properly, and the extra shaft end gives me a convenient place to mount it.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that. Cheaper? Have you seen what electric cars retail for? How are you comparing this to the price of conversion?
    - abawany 7y ago
      I suspect they mean buying a used EV such as the last generation Nissan Leaf, which can be had for reasonable prices; I've seen pre 2013 ones for less than 6k.
      - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
        I was under the impression the battery packs are where a LOT of the depreciation comes from, so that's not really a valid comparison unless it's used with a fresh battery pack. Public transit has a great economic argument today for both reducing city emissions, monthly and repair costs, and having a great profile for harvesting brake energy. In many cases you can electrify via wire and save on battery costs. Consumer cars though? Still 100% a luxury. I imagine a lot of other parameters would factor into why you would electrify vs buying off the (still tiny) market other than price. I bet you see these first used in bulk by people re-electrifying hobby cars + upgrading fleets of vans and taxis.
    - 14 7y ago
      I think you are right. Looking at a new EV is probably going to set a Canadian back about 30,000$. That is a lot of money. But I do have a 2005 AWD Hyundai Tucson in my back yard with a blown engine but otherwise in really good shape. It would be a lot of fun to dump the engine and replace it with this. Something I could do in my spare time as it is just sitting in my back yard anyways. I don't think this will be huge that everyone will be doing it but I do think there will be a large enough market of backyard mechanics and the likes who find ways to use these.
  - irq-1 7y ago
    These problems only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... Also, manufacturers use platforms for many different models, so they may only need plans for the platform. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_produc...
    - Klinky 7y ago
      >only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... This is extremely costly to do. Why would a manufacturer ever do this? They want you going to the dealer for servicing. No way would they support DIY gas to electric conversion kits. There also isn't enough money in converting econoboxes for performance parts manufacturers to do it, or if they did it'd be so costly that it wouldn't be worth it for most people.
      - jamiek88 7y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri... It's actually being done by VW, ASton Martin and Jaguar. Probably best for vintage/valuable cars rather than an old toyota yaris but the options are coming.
        Klinky 7y ago
        Options are coming for niche low volume high margin conversions. These kits will probably cost as much as a new economy car. There is no way that gas to electric conversion will be available at commodity-like prices needed to make it an economical choice.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    This product is intellectually exciting in the sense that hobbyists and tinkerers are excited about how they might use it. I don’t think it’s exciting in the sense that it’s opening up a multi-billion dollar market, or some sort of “new way forward”.
  - ahupp 7y ago
    The kind of engine swaps I'm familiar with use a wildly different motor, often requiring some fabrication to get everything to fit. And usually these projects have a lot of other DIY changes and junkyard parts. These are not pragmatic projects and things like safety, AC and working gauges are not necessarily a priority.
    - TylerE 7y ago
      It depends. Many conversions are pretty well established these days (Like an LS into a Miata, or hell, an LS into just about ANYTHING) and there are off-the-shelf replacement wiring harnesses, ecus...
  - anon1m0us 7y ago
    > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle ... And also much worse for the environment. If you convert an older car, you save all the energy and pollution it takes to make an entirely new vehicle.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    FYI: most cars do not have an “oil level” gauge. They have an oil temperature gauge.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- madengr 7y ago
  Might as well just get a used Nissan Leaf, probably cheaper than you will spend on an econobox conversion. I bought a 2 year old one, at 19k mikes, for $8,500.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    Yeah, that's probably the actual, realistic economical option. Also, damn those things don't hold any value.
    - Baeocystin 7y ago
      It'll probably start to level off once the ~250-mile range barrier has been broken. Based off conversations with EV owners I've had, anything above 200 miles seems to be the comfort zone where they genuinely don't feel range anxiety throughout their day. Manufacturers are getting close, but as it is, why would anyone want an 83-mile Leaf, when a 120- or 200+ mile one is available? The answer is they don't, which is why you see the early-gen ones going for peanuts. Which, honestly, is not a bad way to get in to EVs as a secondary car. They're nice on the inside, and if the range works for you, dirt cheap to operate. One of my friends recently picked up a few-years-old Chevy Spark for around $5k, and absolutely loves the thing. It's a great city car, and the low range is a non-issue for his needs.
    - TylerE 7y ago
      The economic (and environmental!) option is going to be not to do anything. You'd have to do hundreds of thousands of miles to make up the energy and materials in the new drive train.
  - m463 7y ago
    This is the correct answer for someone looking for an econobox. Also, slightly older leafs go much much cheaper than that. I think the crate motor route is probably for someone with an older car with some sort of classic/aesthetic/sentimental value.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    Why would you get a Leaf when you can get a model 3 for a little bit more and get a lot more distance?
- Robotbeat 7y ago
  I looked at conversion long ago. It's an interesting thing to do, and if you underpower it and use a small battery, it can work. But for less price, you can buy a used electric car that will be far better. More efficient, more range, more safety, etc, etc. So I just bought a used Volt (and now a used Leaf for our second car). I'm way happier than I would have been. I'm hoping to upgrade to a used Tesla so I can take road trips pure electrically.
- sodosopa 7y ago
  As a lover of Volvos, I’d love to see these implanted in the 960 and even the last boxy Volvo v70s.
ballpark 7y ago
I stopped reading because the ads are obnoxious
- exabrial 7y ago
  Time to switch to Brave browser
- noughtme 7y ago
  use an add blocker.
  - xellisx 7y ago
    I hate when people block simple math problems on my site.
- fortran77 7y ago
  Wonderful! I'm happy for you. But what does this have to do with electric crate motors that can be retrofitted into gas cars?
  - whatimeantosay 7y ago
    fortran sucks
    - imtringued 7y ago
      I don't have the correct screwdriver.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand... If I am writing an article, and I intersperse my arguments with a lot of irrelevant pictures (which I often do on my blog), and go off on irrelevant digressions (which I sometimes do on my blog), it seems fair game to comment on the fact that my writing style is obscuring or detracting from my subject. Coming back to ads on a blog, if those ads are interfering with with article's ability to communicate its points, isn't that the same as if the author's own prose interfered with the article's ability to communicate its points? So we have two things. One thing is using the article as a kind of excuse to have a general discussion about the subject. We go off on tangents and discuss things not in the article (like whether it is useful to attach motors directly to the wheels, something this particular crate motor was not designed for), and with respect to that discussion, the ads are irrelevant. The other thing is discussing the article itself, including whether it makes reasonable points and how well it makes its points.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Hamuko 7y ago
>It weighs only around 154 pounds and makes around 110 horsepower—a pretty decent number considering how compact this thing is, and that includes everything: motor, single-speed transmission, cooling system, and power inverter. Yeah, includes everything. Except, you know, for the battery. It's pretty amusing how little attention the article gives for the actual batteries. The fact that you can easily swap out the engine will do so much when you still need to figure out where to cram an array of batteries smartly and safely.
- csunbird 7y ago
  You are absolutely right! Because heaviest part of an electric car is not the battery pack, am I right?
- lallysingh 7y ago
  > I haven’t found details about what sorts of battery packs it’s designed to work with, but ideally, it’ll be able to be adapted to work with battery packs from Leafs or Bolts or Teslas or whatever you can find in your local junkyards.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- ReptileMan 7y ago
  since you remove the fuel tank, the gearbox and the engine there are nice chunks of space. Someone should start working on modular battery packs that could be assembled to fit current space.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    I don't think the fuel tank and gearbox in my car take up that much space when compared to the batteries in a Leaf or a Tesla. And you still need to put this where the engine used to go, so it's really a limited amount of space there as well. Just for reference, this is the fuel tank in my car: https://traversparts.com/download/normal/246883_1.jpeg https://traversparts.com/download/normal/246883_1.jpeg And this illustrates where the batteries in a Leaf are: https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/nissan-leaf-batteries-to-power-brazilian-homes-127747_1.jpg https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/nissan-leaf-bat...
exabrial 7y ago
This is awesome. I want something 350hp+ I can drop into a truck. Compact cars cause back problems for the very tall among us.
- axaxs 7y ago
  Same. I drive a truck just because I'm too tall for most cars, and even those that do fit hurt my knees to get in and out of(ride height). I don't even need such horsepower, just give me some old dog like the straight 6 f100 and I'll be set. I just hope they don't cost 75k or more like most of the 'more luxury' full sizes today...
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    If it's 'most cars' then why not just buy one of the ones where you do fit? I've never heard anybody here say that they bought a truck because they're too tall for normal cars and tied with the Swedes this is the country (NL) with the largest proportion of tall people worldwide.
    - Hamuko 7y ago
      Yeah, tall people can be found around the world, but regular people driving trucks is pretty limited. A tall person I know bought a BMW 5-series. Apparently it was good for his size.
    - exabrial 7y ago
      Car options are pretty limited. Hands down Toyota makes the best cars on the planet in terms of value, reliability, and longevity. Unfortunately they have no options that are comfortable for me. Quality drops off a cliff for American created cars. The US pickup truck market is incredibly competitive however. You can buy a truck that will last as long as a Toyota car and its large enough for people of big stature. I sold my last GMC with 275k miles on it, and literally everything was in working order except the lumbar adjustment on the driver seat.
      - 7y ago
abbracadabbra 7y ago
Price will be the deciding factor, but none disclosed in the article.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Price of motor, controller, and inverter is not the majority of the cost of an EV conversion. Battery modules are. Hence why so many people use salvage Teslas, Volts, etc.
yummypaint 7y ago
That's small and light enough to conceivably do 1 motor per wheel on off larger off-road vehicles. That controllable torque might give some advantages for crawling.
- jsymolon 7y ago
  Keep in mind that lots of unsprung weight is not a good thing. Causes lots of issues with wheel control in acceleration and braking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - grepthisab 7y ago
    Would a motor be unsprung weight if not connected to the suspension? By reading that wiki, it looks like unsprung weight is basically wheels, tires, suspension directly supporting those things. The parent comment seems to be referring to putting two engines in the front, and two in the trunk, not necessarily above the tires (if that's even possible?).
  - hinkley 7y ago
    The way I discovered one of my cars needed new shock absorbers was driving down a very steep hill toward the stop light crossing a busy intersection. The road was super bumpy and one of my tires kept losing contact with the road. I managed to stop but it was a much closer thing then I was comfortable with. Scheduled an appointment at the auto shop very shortly after that. Going down an incline or around a curve without all four tires on the ground is terrifying.
netfl0 7y ago
I am surprised more mechanics aren’t developing conversion kits for their customers. It would be a good way to deal with the impending decline of ICE maintenance requirements. Plus you’d think it would really scratch the gear head itches a lot of mechanics have. It would create demand for car bodies that were well built and easily serviceable. I guess I just wish things were very modular.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  It's probably because any good conversion kit would be highly specific to that car model, it'd still require a ton of work to cram in the batteries and do the entire conversion work and still cost a lot. What's the benefit over a fully electric car at that point? I think there's a pretty good explanation why a lot of electric car conversions are hobby projects, where you don't pay for labour converting the car and the car is generally interesting for the person in order for them to eat the costs.
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  Because most mechanics aren’t also EEs? I would sooner expect a third party parts manufacturer to start developing them than a mechanic.
  - albertsondev 7y ago
    You'd be surprised -- modern cars have a lot of electronics and wiring involved, especially when you start getting into larger trucks and semis.
  - chrisdhoover 7y ago
    Mechanics are naturally curious, they figure stuff out through experimentation. One of the characters in the Electric Koolaid Acid Test, was Hassler. He kept the magic bus going. Or the NZ guy who set a land speed record on a homebuilt motorcycle. Or just about every NASCAR team in the ‘60’s. Motoring is full of characters like these, not formally schooled, but schooled in practice. You don’t need an EE, ME or any schooling at all, you need a willingness to bust knuckles, take things apart put them back again, take them apart, modify them and put them again over and over.
nathancahill 7y ago
Fresh on the heels of this announcement from VW: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri...
- codingdave 7y ago
  VWs were the first popular cars for EV conversions. You've been able to buy conversion kits for them for well over a decade. The fact that this one may be coming directly from VW is interesting, but this isn't really a game changer in this niche.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  and here I would prefer they keep the Beetle but make it an open air convertible which EVs are ideally suited to be but there just are no options for.
todd3834 7y ago
This is cool but where do you put the battery?
- netfl0 7y ago
  Typically the gas tank is removed and the battery is mounted in its place.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
  Gas tank, trunk, engine bay, under rear seats, etc. Important to consider: * They don't all need to go in one spot. You can spread them around * You don't need to use that many. These are classic cars that are likely trailered to go any distance anyhow. 80 miles of range to cruise around town is often more than enough.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > They don't all need to go in one spot. You can spread them around Depends on how quickly you want to die when someone hits your car.
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    Also worth considering: many of these classic cars are underpowered (especially after a few decades of wear & tear), have terrible handling, and not that much range to begin with. The EV conversion can address all of this. Apparently the art is in not overdoing it on this front and preserving the original character of the car. The best conversions are fully reversible if the owner chooses so.
techer 7y ago
http://londonelectriccars.com/ http://londonelectriccars.com/
- 2sk21 7y ago
  Love the restored and electrified Morris Minor!
- riedel 7y ago
  https://www.voltimer.de/ https://www.voltimer.de/
ryanmarsh 7y ago
But where do the batteries go? If you replace the fuel tank with heavy batteries you’re going to have terrible handling.
jmount 7y ago
This was the scam at the start of the digital camera boom: a consumer back you could dock onto your camera (I know there are some medium format replacement digital backs, but the consumer replacement was a joke).
ajot 7y ago
This reminds me of a Latin American startup, Exponential Motors [0], which developed a hybrid conversion kit. Not fully EV, but it can help to reduce fuel costs and CO2 emissions, and is not much more expensive than fitting a compressed natural gas tank to a car (a common practice at least in Argentina). [0] http://exponentialmotors.com/ http://exponentialmotors.com/
- subw00f 7y ago
  The gas tank adapation is also common practice in Brazil, especially in taxis and ride sharing cars.
  - ColanR 7y ago
    It's also common in Bolivia, and for personal vehicles as well. The reason we don't have it in the US, from what I've heard, is because it doesn't meet our safety standards.
    - blattimwind 7y ago
      > The reason we don't have it in the US, from what I've heard, is because it doesn't meet our safety standards. These are decently common in Europe so it's relatively doubtful that there are significant safety concerns.
      - walshemj 7y ago
        They are popular for tax reasons - years ago I had a mate who was a sales rep for calor gas and their company cars had gas conversions.
      - ColanR 7y ago
        In Bolivia you have to get out of the car while fueling, because there's a nonzero chance the car will explode. We're a little too stringent about that sort of thing in the US.
        7y ago
Pxtl 7y ago
It seems like the cost of a kit including batteries would cost more than most of the frames youd build on.. If it were affordable, I could see standard kits for popular car models - like the Civic or the F150. Imagine an f150 with 6 inches of battery across the original flatbed and a new bed built on top. But it isn't. In hindsight, this is probably most useful for antique show-only restorations, where the restored car doesn't need a battery range of more than like 20km since it is just going to drive from the trailer to the show and back and maybe around the area a few times.
agumonkey 7y ago
I wonder if they could make a 65hp variant.
- derrick_jensen 7y ago
  The issue with lower horsepower motors is that regenerative braking is not as effective. For the most part, regenerative braking can only absorb as much torque as it can put out, and anything above this has to fall back to the traditional brake system (or some other system). I've been pricing out how to perform EV conversions as cheaply as possible. Battery capacity is by far the most costly section, and having a smaller horsepower motor isn't going to change how much power it draws (assuming driving habits stay the same). I've been basing my calculations off a 40HP motor and here are some preliminary numbers you might find interesting On a typical car, a 200 mile radius will require around 44.4kWh of capacity (at around 45MPH, no stops). This is the capacity of 3483 3.4Ah 18650 cells, costing around $13.6k (you can bring that price down if you have some connections and more supply, but that's the cheapest rate I could find for a non-business). 100 mile range is also pretty reasonable. The motor and all other components cost less than $1.5k, man hours required for conversion is another main question, but hopefully that becomes more streamlined over time.
sebastianconcpt 7y ago
It weighs only around 154 pounds and makes around 110 horsepower—a pretty decent number considering how compact this thing is, and that includes everything: motor, single-speed transmission, cooling system, and power inverter.
zw123456 7y ago
I love it, I was wondering when someone would come along with something like this. It looks like it's pretty well thought out. I am imagining a 356 speedster kit with one of these in it would be a ton of fun!
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  It exists, EV West has kits for 356s and 911s
forgotAgain 7y ago
This highlights the commoditization of parts that will be part of EV market changes as well as the plug and play nature of EV assemblies. Massive changes to the current ways we build and maintain vehicles.
geggam 7y ago
This would be interesting to swap out on a small farm tractor. Dont need much horsepower and the tractor frame is a beast. In fact you normally add counterweights in areas when doing heavy work
- jcims 7y ago
  At first this didn’t land for me but i have a 35 hp compact tractor that i can work hard for hours on five gallons of diesel. Plus the pack weight would help with traction.
RaceWon 7y ago
Hey that's a first... a motor that is actually a motor.
cmrdporcupine 7y ago
Neat. But still going to require a bunch of custom machining to adapt to the existing drivetrain and engine mount, and will need a custom box for battery, designed around the car chassis; plus DC-DC converter, charger, and computer systems.
tyingq 7y ago
"I suspect you could use two in one car for all-wheel drive and more power" Sure, I imagine that's super simple.
aj7 7y ago
Batteries?
olivermarks 7y ago
One thing to bear in mind when that converting ice vehicles to electric is that they are constructed with a vertical firewall between engine and driver with lots of protection around location of fuel tanks and fuel lines. EV's are typically designed with a horizontal fire wall to protect the occupants from the batteries beneath them, which become unstable in a violent impact and often burn repeatedly. The centre of gravity in an ICE vehicle is very different to an EV. It is therefore arguably better to build some sort of EV kit car with a crate motor than to attempt to convert an ICE monocoque imo
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  Most of the time a crate engine enters the equation there is some sort of hideously unsafe car waiting for it. Its safe to assume that if you are the kind of person installing a crate engine you have some sort of idea of what you are doing, and are capable of taking informed risks.
  - anon1m0us 7y ago
    Your reasoning assumes people don't skip steps in the process of learning things. There are cliches to support my case. "Only knows enough to be dangerous" "More dollars than sense" That itself is dangerous. You're basically discouraging someone from offering advice to the general public because you think the knowledge is generally known, but that's just not the case. I have a general idea of what I'm doing but reading that comment changed my perspective of what is and isn't dangerous in a car and those dangers shift from ICE to electric. Frankly, I'm glad he opened my mind to the ideas.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >That itself is dangerous. You're basically discouraging someone from offering advice to the general public because you think the knowledge is generally known, but that's just not the case. And if you don't discourage it all discourse gets drowned out into a bunch of "hurr durr don't forget your jack stands" type virtue signaling (in the technical sense, not the politically loaded sense) about safety and you get Reddit. You can't please everyone.
simonklitj 7y ago
My daily driver is a 2009 Citroën C1 ev’ie. Converted by a company in Denmark with a conversion kit from a company in England. Sold to a car rental company and then I purchased it when they sold it at an auction. It’s pretty interesting, fun to drive. Would recommend a conversion for people able to get their hands on it. I like it so much more than an ICE.
hinkley 7y ago
About eight years ago there was a flash in the pan company that was claiming to be in late development stages on a drop in replacement for the alternator. Combine with a small supercap bank, it was intended to turn any car into a mild hybrid. What I can’t remember now is whether it simply stopped drawing power when you were accelerating, or if it actually ran as a dynamo when the throttle was open. They kept posting updates for a while but I think they must’ve figured out that reliability was a much bigger issue than they initially thought.
- thenewwazoo 7y ago
  Mazda has productionalized it and is shipping it in cars today: https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Yeah I think GM called them BAS or some such. I brought it up not for existing, but for being a retrofit kit.
newnewpdro 7y ago
Chevrolet is also preparing an EV crate motor alternative to the venerable small block chevy. https://insideevs.com/news/340975/chevy-camaro-ecopo-and-electric-crate-motor-detailed-in-interview/ https://insideevs.com/news/340975/chevy-camaro-ecopo-and-ele...
tomcam 7y ago
Crate engines are a neat concept I only learned about recently. Suppose you bought some awesome old car from 70s and its engine was on the way out. What if you don't want to risk a junkyard buy? You get a crate engine, that's what. Straight from the factory, ready to drop in a 50 year-old vehicle, and infinitely better made than they were back in the day. GM alone has dozens of engines available. They're not cheap--$8,000-$10,0000 isn't unusual--but what a cool option for a real enthusiast.
- fragmede 7y ago
  As long as you're custom building a car, Chevy sells the Corvette's engine[1] in a crate for $20k. Might also need to upgrade the transmission on a 50-year old car to handle it, but it's totally an option! [1]https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/ls9 https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/ls9
  - Washuu 7y ago
    They also have the "Connect and Cruise" option that includes a transmission and a warranty. The E-Rod versions have a longer warranty and are CARB approved. https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertrain-systems https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertr... My method was to get a low mileage drive train from a recent Camaro.
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  It depends, they are used to give very meaningful life extensions to cars that otherwise are already very expensive to keep in a working stater. If it drives another 10-20 years with minimal need for maintenance, it's very reasonable. A few of the companies specializing in this type of conversions go out of their way that the conversion is fully reversible as well. In their view, putting the old motor back in should always be possible. Likewise, they anticipate similar upgrades will happen to the car again when new tech becomes available in a few decades. A few car manufacturers (VW, Aston Martin) have started supporting these conversions as well for some of their classics. There's also an emerging market for converting non classic cars simply for cost reasons. It's usually the ICE bits in a car that break down. The rest could still go for another few hundred thousand miles with a new drivetrain.
rasz 7y ago
Motor is the easy cheap part. Batteries is where its at. > it’s essentially the same drivetrain used in their EV-converted classic Mini, so if it fits under a Mini’s hood, it should fit almost anywhere. Author doesnt realize you can fit Honda B16B in the classic Mini https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8RLM8eWRU&list=PLp0KnUFYB--g4RJ0SomuWRqckXHCYkabS&index=13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8RLM8eWRU&list=PLp0KnUFYB-...
SteveGerencser 7y ago
While sticking a 110hp electric motor into a car might have some appeal, I am FAR more interested in putting it in a small plane. A Rotax 912 is roughly the same horsepower and a few pounds heavier. Using this electric motor as a replacement for that for short joyrides around the patch has real potential in the experimental / homebuilt crowd. With the standard caveats of batteries and weight issues.
- TylerE 7y ago
  The energy density of batteries isn't close to good enough. Small personal aircraft have a _very_ narrow weight allowance - and do remember the FAA mandates a minimum of 30 minutes of reserve fuel.
- coupdejarnac 7y ago
  Look up Peter Sripol on youtube. He homebuilt an electric airplane or three.
lisper 7y ago
For those who, like me, are wondering what a crate engine is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crate_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crate_engine
- tmh88j 7y ago
  They're hugely popular amongst auto enthusiasts. Not only do "race shops" sell crate engines, but most OEM's sell them too. For example, here are Chevy's offerings. https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines
ourmandave 7y ago
The drivetrain includes multiple mounting points and it’s designed to be flexible enough to be mounted by either axle of the car, front or rear. That should be "... mounted by BOTH axles of the car, front AND rear." Why should only Teslas have Ludicrous Mode?
RickJWagner 7y ago
That's awesome! Awaiting further news while I dream about what kind of vehicle to drop it in.
csours 7y ago
No price listed yet, and only 110 HP. It's hard to find a car with only 110 HP today (at least in the USA). I know that electric motors have instant torque, but once you pass 30 mph, that low HP will really start to be a drag.
Animats 7y ago
It hooks to the driveshaft, so you get rid of the transmission. That's a win. Fewer problems, and more space for batteries. YC has a company in this space: "Open Motors"[1] They sell a "sled" on which you can put kit car bodies. [1] https://www.openmotors.co/product/tabby-evo/ https://www.openmotors.co/product/tabby-evo/
m0zg 7y ago
This needs to come with an crate battery that you can also drop into your car, as well as a wiring harness to hook up the pedals, ignition, telemetry, and so on and so forth. Without all that you can't really "drop it into your car".
perl4ever 7y ago
Batteries unfortunately are expensive and heavy and hard to find space for in a car designed for an ICE. So what I have been idly dreaming of is taking a classic car and making a very simple hybrid - use an electric motor like this, the smallest battery and gas engine possible, and only connect the motor and gas engine to the battery, not to each other, but only have enough battery to buffer acceleration needs. Mileage wouldn't be fantastic, but you'd have electric torque and smoothness, and the gas engine could run at one constant speed as a generator.
- igor47 7y ago
  this is known as a "serial" hybrid, vs. the more common parallel hybrid like the prius. i think these are really cool. one of the benefits is, as battery technology improves, you can eventually dump the ICE generator but keep the same exact everything else.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    My thinking is that battery technology will never improve enough to make a larger battery smaller, lighter, and less expensive than a smaller one. ...but ICEs will never improve to make acceleration competitive with even present day electric motors.
- anticensor 7y ago
  Why you would need a constant speed engine, though? Railway engines do fine with variable speed industrial specification prime movers. Constant speed ratings are 30% lower than automotive grade ratings, too.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I meant that loosely, just that without a big R&D budget, the programming would need a KISS approach. Maybe even use an off the shelf generator.
joshu 7y ago
Looks like it replaces the rear diff. So not a drop-in replacement.
- kube-system 7y ago
  It's a drop-in for vehicles with transverse engine configurations.
Robotbeat 7y ago
Super inefficient. Need to do cleansheet electric car design like Tesla.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  That's not the point. The point is to have a second option for "engines you can drop into classic cars with nothing more than a credit card" (the first option being an LS).
pugworthy 7y ago
110 HP upgrade to my MG Midget (about 65 HP for the 1275) would be almost a waste. That said, I like the idea of this upgrade.
- hinkley 7y ago
  It’d be just about right in a TR6 or a GT6 though. If your MG body is solid you might be able to get away with it but if it’s rusty, that torque could be bad. There’s plenty of room under the hood of a spitfire for a bigger engine but I’d heard you have to upgrade the half shafts if you do as they’re the weak point. That and maybe weld some plates into the hourglass section of the frame. But they were around 100hp already. The monobody on the MG might be okay if it’s not full of holes...
- thedaemon 7y ago
  So it's almost doubling your horsepower, not to mention the full torque of an electric motor, which is to say you get all of your torque available from 0. A Midget with this 110HP electric motor would absolutely destroy your 65HP petrol engine Midget!
sabujp 7y ago
great now i just need a mechanic who will do the entire conversion
jaclaz 7y ago
From the manufacturer site: https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx >So compact is the 70kg HPD EV powertrain - 600mm wide by 440mm deep by as little as 280mm tall, that the motor, inverter, single-speed transmission and cooling system assembly fits under the bonnet of a classic Mini, in a quad bike or under the loading platform of a light commercial vehicle I can see an utility of a (relatively) low cost version of something like this for a large part of services (think of repairmen/electricians/plumbers/small couriers) that could maybe make their vans "hybrid" without replacing them, and even if they wouldn't have that much of autonomy, it could be enough to allow for entering city centres on electric (at the cost of some reduced carrying load, lost to the batteries) and do the delivery/whatever without polluting there. At least here (Italy/Europe) a lot of cities have pollution issues that they try to resolve by limiting traffic to vehicles older than a given Euro level or even entirely prohibiting ICE vehicles circulation. That is a problem for a large number of small activities that cannot afford to buy (besides their current ICE one) another electric van for the city.
nonford150 7y ago
This sounds great for a small 4 cylinder vehicle - until you start thinking about most cars today only have power steering so a manual steering box isn't available. Then you need a 12V battery to operate most of the lights, speedometer, radio, etc. What do you charge this with? If you do a step down transformer there's more of your range eaten up. Then there's other power stuff: seats, wonders, wipers and roofs. More range bye-bye. Sounds like you would still need some other power source to make all of the modern creature comforts in a standard ICE powered vehicle operate.

416 points by hourislate 7y ago

If it were possible to convert an old econo-box compact car to electric for a reasonable price with roughly the same sort of effort and knowledge as it takes to do an engine swap (which I can and have done several times) I'd do it. I don't care about range beyond what it takes for me to get from home to work and back again, with the occasional stop at a super market and I don't care about performance beyond what it takes to properly merge into traffic like competent driver. On the occasion that find myself in need of some other sort of car for some special purpose I can rent something appropriate for that.

bob1029 7y ago
The difference between this and a typical engine swap is that the car was never intended to be run this way. Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? How are you going to manage charging these things? What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Do you want regenerative braking? What sort of range is required? Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? What about oil level gauge? Any other internal electronics? How are you going to drive an A/C compressor or is this no longer a concern either? Hydraulic/vacuum assist steering/brakes? There are new problems to solve with this approach. It's certainly not going to be a straightforward process compared to a factory engine swap. There will probably be some body work involved. You will probably have to fabricate completely custom parts to get certain things to work together. I don't see this as a reasonable solution for existing gasoline powered cars. It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that.
- codingdave 7y ago
  > Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? No, batteries are larger. People tend to use the trunks for batteries, or convert pickups and put them in the beds. > Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? It can, which most people deal with by placing the batteries carefully to maintain the same balance as before. > How are you going to manage charging these things? Most people put the charging plug where the gas cap was. > What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Same as if your engine explodes. Safety is a concern in any car. Problems can happen in any car. Most DIY EVs put a cutoff switch, or even a main line you can literally cut right next to the driver as a final safety net in case of extreme emergencies. Better to kill the car than a person. Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? Most people replace the gauges with new ones more applicable to the new information they'll need. I know you had other questions, but it has been 10 years since I dabbling this space, and I don't remember every detail. But yes, there absolutely are new problems to solve. And people have been solving them for 20+ years now. There are books written on it, so if you truly want to know the answers, go read some of the books. Most of your questions either have easy answers, or are just a matter of making a choice between a few options. The hard part is not putting together a working EV system. Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission, because it often meant a custom designed, and custom machined mounting plate. So again, you are correct that it is more than an engine swap, but not to the scale you are describing.
  - 40four 7y ago
    Funny how many folks wondering where to put the batteries, trunk seems so obvious after you hear it :) Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission Seems like this product is trying to solve that problem. Sounds like a big upgrade from what is currently available to people interested in these type of projects.
    - Shivetya 7y ago
      except of course most trunks have load limits which batteries can quickly exceed. I find it disappointing how quick they are to dismiss issues with ruptured batteries by falling back on "well gas explodes" not acknowledging the issue of environmental and personal danger batteries create that require special handling sure you can cram batteries here and there but the reason for the skate board layout companies have adopted that is to have management of weight, ease of manufacturing, sufficient space for range needs, and more.
- jimnotgym 7y ago
  Somehow I can't imagine driving an A/C compressor is high on the list of needs for classic mini owners. Or indeed, as also mentioned in the article, the owner of a Caterham. The Caterham has a kind of A/C that does not require a compressor, and since they are designed to be built from kits, I can't imagine the other things you mention will trouble them either.
  - Quequau 7y ago
    I would just like to observe that all these sorts of belt or vacuum powered accessories (A/C & Heat, power steering, power brakes) now have all electric alternatives that can be mounted anywhere they will fit so packaging becomes a much more flexible proposition as compared to belt driven accessories.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Go to EV west and look at what they are doing. California hot rod culture is alive and well.
  - auxym 7y ago
    EV West is what I thought of when I read the headline. I bought one of these kits a year ago (for work): https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS About the same power as the article. It's a newer kit, but NetGain have been at it for years, so I'm not sure what exactly is new? The Hyper-9 is a nice kit, by the way :)
    - jamiek88 7y ago
      I've got a mini cooper S that I'm thinking of converting to BEV. That hyper9 kit is nice! Glad to hear that someone has experience of using them and recommends them.
    - elihu 7y ago
      Nice, I have one of those on order right now. (The high-voltage double-ended version.) The reason I'm going with the double-ended shaft might be interesting to some people here who might be thinking of doing the same thing. The car I'm converting (Mazda RX-8) has a gear-like thing with a magnetic sensor mounted on one end of the crankshaft, and the ECU uses that to figure out the crankshaft speed and orientation. When people swap engines, they usually transfer that device to the new engine, so that the ECU is (sort of) tricked into thinking the engine is still there and it generates all the right can-bus messages to the rest of the car. I haven't tried this yet myself, but I gather that it's the easiest way to get the anti-lock brake system, the power steering, and the tachometer to work properly, and the extra shaft end gives me a convenient place to mount it.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that. Cheaper? Have you seen what electric cars retail for? How are you comparing this to the price of conversion?
  - abawany 7y ago
    I suspect they mean buying a used EV such as the last generation Nissan Leaf, which can be had for reasonable prices; I've seen pre 2013 ones for less than 6k.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      I was under the impression the battery packs are where a LOT of the depreciation comes from, so that's not really a valid comparison unless it's used with a fresh battery pack. Public transit has a great economic argument today for both reducing city emissions, monthly and repair costs, and having a great profile for harvesting brake energy. In many cases you can electrify via wire and save on battery costs. Consumer cars though? Still 100% a luxury. I imagine a lot of other parameters would factor into why you would electrify vs buying off the (still tiny) market other than price. I bet you see these first used in bulk by people re-electrifying hobby cars + upgrading fleets of vans and taxis.
  - 14 7y ago
    I think you are right. Looking at a new EV is probably going to set a Canadian back about 30,000$. That is a lot of money. But I do have a 2005 AWD Hyundai Tucson in my back yard with a blown engine but otherwise in really good shape. It would be a lot of fun to dump the engine and replace it with this. Something I could do in my spare time as it is just sitting in my back yard anyways. I don't think this will be huge that everyone will be doing it but I do think there will be a large enough market of backyard mechanics and the likes who find ways to use these.
- irq-1 7y ago
  These problems only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... Also, manufacturers use platforms for many different models, so they may only need plans for the platform. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_produc...
  - Klinky 7y ago
    >only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... This is extremely costly to do. Why would a manufacturer ever do this? They want you going to the dealer for servicing. No way would they support DIY gas to electric conversion kits. There also isn't enough money in converting econoboxes for performance parts manufacturers to do it, or if they did it'd be so costly that it wouldn't be worth it for most people.
    - jamiek88 7y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri... It's actually being done by VW, ASton Martin and Jaguar. Probably best for vintage/valuable cars rather than an old toyota yaris but the options are coming.
      - Klinky 7y ago
        Options are coming for niche low volume high margin conversions. These kits will probably cost as much as a new economy car. There is no way that gas to electric conversion will be available at commodity-like prices needed to make it an economical choice.
- zaroth 7y ago
  This product is intellectually exciting in the sense that hobbyists and tinkerers are excited about how they might use it. I don’t think it’s exciting in the sense that it’s opening up a multi-billion dollar market, or some sort of “new way forward”.
- ahupp 7y ago
  The kind of engine swaps I'm familiar with use a wildly different motor, often requiring some fabrication to get everything to fit. And usually these projects have a lot of other DIY changes and junkyard parts. These are not pragmatic projects and things like safety, AC and working gauges are not necessarily a priority.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    It depends. Many conversions are pretty well established these days (Like an LS into a Miata, or hell, an LS into just about ANYTHING) and there are off-the-shelf replacement wiring harnesses, ecus...
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle ... And also much worse for the environment. If you convert an older car, you save all the energy and pollution it takes to make an entirely new vehicle.
- kortilla 7y ago
  FYI: most cars do not have an “oil level” gauge. They have an oil temperature gauge.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
madengr 7y ago
Might as well just get a used Nissan Leaf, probably cheaper than you will spend on an econobox conversion. I bought a 2 year old one, at 19k mikes, for $8,500.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  Yeah, that's probably the actual, realistic economical option. Also, damn those things don't hold any value.
  - Baeocystin 7y ago
    It'll probably start to level off once the ~250-mile range barrier has been broken. Based off conversations with EV owners I've had, anything above 200 miles seems to be the comfort zone where they genuinely don't feel range anxiety throughout their day. Manufacturers are getting close, but as it is, why would anyone want an 83-mile Leaf, when a 120- or 200+ mile one is available? The answer is they don't, which is why you see the early-gen ones going for peanuts. Which, honestly, is not a bad way to get in to EVs as a secondary car. They're nice on the inside, and if the range works for you, dirt cheap to operate. One of my friends recently picked up a few-years-old Chevy Spark for around $5k, and absolutely loves the thing. It's a great city car, and the low range is a non-issue for his needs.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    The economic (and environmental!) option is going to be not to do anything. You'd have to do hundreds of thousands of miles to make up the energy and materials in the new drive train.
- m463 7y ago
  This is the correct answer for someone looking for an econobox. Also, slightly older leafs go much much cheaper than that. I think the crate motor route is probably for someone with an older car with some sort of classic/aesthetic/sentimental value.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  Why would you get a Leaf when you can get a model 3 for a little bit more and get a lot more distance?
Robotbeat 7y ago
I looked at conversion long ago. It's an interesting thing to do, and if you underpower it and use a small battery, it can work. But for less price, you can buy a used electric car that will be far better. More efficient, more range, more safety, etc, etc. So I just bought a used Volt (and now a used Leaf for our second car). I'm way happier than I would have been. I'm hoping to upgrade to a used Tesla so I can take road trips pure electrically.
sodosopa 7y ago
As a lover of Volvos, I’d love to see these implanted in the 960 and even the last boxy Volvo v70s.

ballpark 7y ago

I stopped reading because the ads are obnoxious

exabrial 7y ago
Time to switch to Brave browser
noughtme 7y ago
use an add blocker.
- xellisx 7y ago
  I hate when people block simple math problems on my site.
fortran77 7y ago
Wonderful! I'm happy for you. But what does this have to do with electric crate motors that can be retrofitted into gas cars?
- whatimeantosay 7y ago
  fortran sucks
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I don't have the correct screwdriver.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand... If I am writing an article, and I intersperse my arguments with a lot of irrelevant pictures (which I often do on my blog), and go off on irrelevant digressions (which I sometimes do on my blog), it seems fair game to comment on the fact that my writing style is obscuring or detracting from my subject. Coming back to ads on a blog, if those ads are interfering with with article's ability to communicate its points, isn't that the same as if the author's own prose interfered with the article's ability to communicate its points? So we have two things. One thing is using the article as a kind of excuse to have a general discussion about the subject. We go off on tangents and discuss things not in the article (like whether it is useful to attach motors directly to the wheels, something this particular crate motor was not designed for), and with respect to that discussion, the ads are irrelevant. The other thing is discussing the article itself, including whether it makes reasonable points and how well it makes its points.

deleted 7y ago

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Hamuko 7y ago

>It weighs only around 154 pounds and makes around 110 horsepower—a pretty decent number considering how compact this thing is, and that includes everything: motor, single-speed transmission, cooling system, and power inverter. Yeah, includes everything. Except, you know, for the battery. It's pretty amusing how little attention the article gives for the actual batteries. The fact that you can easily swap out the engine will do so much when you still need to figure out where to cram an array of batteries smartly and safely.

csunbird 7y ago
You are absolutely right! Because heaviest part of an electric car is not the battery pack, am I right?
lallysingh 7y ago
> I haven’t found details about what sorts of battery packs it’s designed to work with, but ideally, it’ll be able to be adapted to work with battery packs from Leafs or Bolts or Teslas or whatever you can find in your local junkyards.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ReptileMan 7y ago
since you remove the fuel tank, the gearbox and the engine there are nice chunks of space. Someone should start working on modular battery packs that could be assembled to fit current space.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  I don't think the fuel tank and gearbox in my car take up that much space when compared to the batteries in a Leaf or a Tesla. And you still need to put this where the engine used to go, so it's really a limited amount of space there as well. Just for reference, this is the fuel tank in my car: https://traversparts.com/download/normal/246883_1.jpeg https://traversparts.com/download/normal/246883_1.jpeg And this illustrates where the batteries in a Leaf are: https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/nissan-leaf-batteries-to-power-brazilian-homes-127747_1.jpg https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/nissan-leaf-bat...

exabrial 7y ago

This is awesome. I want something 350hp+ I can drop into a truck. Compact cars cause back problems for the very tall among us.

axaxs 7y ago
Same. I drive a truck just because I'm too tall for most cars, and even those that do fit hurt my knees to get in and out of(ride height). I don't even need such horsepower, just give me some old dog like the straight 6 f100 and I'll be set. I just hope they don't cost 75k or more like most of the 'more luxury' full sizes today...
- jacquesm 7y ago
  If it's 'most cars' then why not just buy one of the ones where you do fit? I've never heard anybody here say that they bought a truck because they're too tall for normal cars and tied with the Swedes this is the country (NL) with the largest proportion of tall people worldwide.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    Yeah, tall people can be found around the world, but regular people driving trucks is pretty limited. A tall person I know bought a BMW 5-series. Apparently it was good for his size.
  - exabrial 7y ago
    Car options are pretty limited. Hands down Toyota makes the best cars on the planet in terms of value, reliability, and longevity. Unfortunately they have no options that are comfortable for me. Quality drops off a cliff for American created cars. The US pickup truck market is incredibly competitive however. You can buy a truck that will last as long as a Toyota car and its large enough for people of big stature. I sold my last GMC with 275k miles on it, and literally everything was in working order except the lumbar adjustment on the driver seat.
    - 7y ago

abbracadabbra 7y ago

Price will be the deciding factor, but none disclosed in the article.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
Price of motor, controller, and inverter is not the majority of the cost of an EV conversion. Battery modules are. Hence why so many people use salvage Teslas, Volts, etc.

yummypaint 7y ago

That's small and light enough to conceivably do 1 motor per wheel on off larger off-road vehicles. That controllable torque might give some advantages for crawling.

jsymolon 7y ago
Keep in mind that lots of unsprung weight is not a good thing. Causes lots of issues with wheel control in acceleration and braking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- grepthisab 7y ago
  Would a motor be unsprung weight if not connected to the suspension? By reading that wiki, it looks like unsprung weight is basically wheels, tires, suspension directly supporting those things. The parent comment seems to be referring to putting two engines in the front, and two in the trunk, not necessarily above the tires (if that's even possible?).
- hinkley 7y ago
  The way I discovered one of my cars needed new shock absorbers was driving down a very steep hill toward the stop light crossing a busy intersection. The road was super bumpy and one of my tires kept losing contact with the road. I managed to stop but it was a much closer thing then I was comfortable with. Scheduled an appointment at the auto shop very shortly after that. Going down an incline or around a curve without all four tires on the ground is terrifying.

netfl0 7y ago

I am surprised more mechanics aren’t developing conversion kits for their customers. It would be a good way to deal with the impending decline of ICE maintenance requirements. Plus you’d think it would really scratch the gear head itches a lot of mechanics have. It would create demand for car bodies that were well built and easily serviceable. I guess I just wish things were very modular.

Hamuko 7y ago
It's probably because any good conversion kit would be highly specific to that car model, it'd still require a ton of work to cram in the batteries and do the entire conversion work and still cost a lot. What's the benefit over a fully electric car at that point? I think there's a pretty good explanation why a lot of electric car conversions are hobby projects, where you don't pay for labour converting the car and the car is generally interesting for the person in order for them to eat the costs.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Because most mechanics aren’t also EEs? I would sooner expect a third party parts manufacturer to start developing them than a mechanic.
- albertsondev 7y ago
  You'd be surprised -- modern cars have a lot of electronics and wiring involved, especially when you start getting into larger trucks and semis.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Mechanics are naturally curious, they figure stuff out through experimentation. One of the characters in the Electric Koolaid Acid Test, was Hassler. He kept the magic bus going. Or the NZ guy who set a land speed record on a homebuilt motorcycle. Or just about every NASCAR team in the ‘60’s. Motoring is full of characters like these, not formally schooled, but schooled in practice. You don’t need an EE, ME or any schooling at all, you need a willingness to bust knuckles, take things apart put them back again, take them apart, modify them and put them again over and over.

nathancahill 7y ago

Fresh on the heels of this announcement from VW: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri...

codingdave 7y ago
VWs were the first popular cars for EV conversions. You've been able to buy conversion kits for them for well over a decade. The fact that this one may be coming directly from VW is interesting, but this isn't really a game changer in this niche.
Shivetya 7y ago
and here I would prefer they keep the Beetle but make it an open air convertible which EVs are ideally suited to be but there just are no options for.

todd3834 7y ago

This is cool but where do you put the battery?

netfl0 7y ago
Typically the gas tank is removed and the battery is mounted in its place.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
Gas tank, trunk, engine bay, under rear seats, etc. Important to consider: * They don't all need to go in one spot. You can spread them around * You don't need to use that many. These are classic cars that are likely trailered to go any distance anyhow. 80 miles of range to cruise around town is often more than enough.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > They don't all need to go in one spot. You can spread them around Depends on how quickly you want to die when someone hits your car.
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  Also worth considering: many of these classic cars are underpowered (especially after a few decades of wear & tear), have terrible handling, and not that much range to begin with. The EV conversion can address all of this. Apparently the art is in not overdoing it on this front and preserving the original character of the car. The best conversions are fully reversible if the owner chooses so.

techer 7y ago

http://londonelectriccars.com/ http://londonelectriccars.com/

2sk21 7y ago
Love the restored and electrified Morris Minor!
riedel 7y ago
https://www.voltimer.de/ https://www.voltimer.de/

ryanmarsh 7y ago

But where do the batteries go? If you replace the fuel tank with heavy batteries you’re going to have terrible handling.

jmount 7y ago

This was the scam at the start of the digital camera boom: a consumer back you could dock onto your camera (I know there are some medium format replacement digital backs, but the consumer replacement was a joke).

ajot 7y ago

This reminds me of a Latin American startup, Exponential Motors [0], which developed a hybrid conversion kit. Not fully EV, but it can help to reduce fuel costs and CO2 emissions, and is not much more expensive than fitting a compressed natural gas tank to a car (a common practice at least in Argentina). [0] http://exponentialmotors.com/ http://exponentialmotors.com/

subw00f 7y ago
The gas tank adapation is also common practice in Brazil, especially in taxis and ride sharing cars.
- ColanR 7y ago
  It's also common in Bolivia, and for personal vehicles as well. The reason we don't have it in the US, from what I've heard, is because it doesn't meet our safety standards.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    > The reason we don't have it in the US, from what I've heard, is because it doesn't meet our safety standards. These are decently common in Europe so it's relatively doubtful that there are significant safety concerns.
    - walshemj 7y ago
      They are popular for tax reasons - years ago I had a mate who was a sales rep for calor gas and their company cars had gas conversions.
    - ColanR 7y ago
      In Bolivia you have to get out of the car while fueling, because there's a nonzero chance the car will explode. We're a little too stringent about that sort of thing in the US.
      - 7y ago

Pxtl 7y ago

It seems like the cost of a kit including batteries would cost more than most of the frames youd build on.. If it were affordable, I could see standard kits for popular car models - like the Civic or the F150. Imagine an f150 with 6 inches of battery across the original flatbed and a new bed built on top. But it isn't. In hindsight, this is probably most useful for antique show-only restorations, where the restored car doesn't need a battery range of more than like 20km since it is just going to drive from the trailer to the show and back and maybe around the area a few times.

agumonkey 7y ago

I wonder if they could make a 65hp variant.

derrick_jensen 7y ago
The issue with lower horsepower motors is that regenerative braking is not as effective. For the most part, regenerative braking can only absorb as much torque as it can put out, and anything above this has to fall back to the traditional brake system (or some other system). I've been pricing out how to perform EV conversions as cheaply as possible. Battery capacity is by far the most costly section, and having a smaller horsepower motor isn't going to change how much power it draws (assuming driving habits stay the same). I've been basing my calculations off a 40HP motor and here are some preliminary numbers you might find interesting On a typical car, a 200 mile radius will require around 44.4kWh of capacity (at around 45MPH, no stops). This is the capacity of 3483 3.4Ah 18650 cells, costing around $13.6k (you can bring that price down if you have some connections and more supply, but that's the cheapest rate I could find for a non-business). 100 mile range is also pretty reasonable. The motor and all other components cost less than $1.5k, man hours required for conversion is another main question, but hopefully that becomes more streamlined over time.

sebastianconcpt 7y ago

It weighs only around 154 pounds and makes around 110 horsepower—a pretty decent number considering how compact this thing is, and that includes everything: motor, single-speed transmission, cooling system, and power inverter.

zw123456 7y ago

I love it, I was wondering when someone would come along with something like this. It looks like it's pretty well thought out. I am imagining a 356 speedster kit with one of these in it would be a ton of fun!

chrisdhoover 7y ago
It exists, EV West has kits for 356s and 911s

forgotAgain 7y ago

This highlights the commoditization of parts that will be part of EV market changes as well as the plug and play nature of EV assemblies. Massive changes to the current ways we build and maintain vehicles.

geggam 7y ago

This would be interesting to swap out on a small farm tractor. Dont need much horsepower and the tractor frame is a beast. In fact you normally add counterweights in areas when doing heavy work

jcims 7y ago
At first this didn’t land for me but i have a 35 hp compact tractor that i can work hard for hours on five gallons of diesel. Plus the pack weight would help with traction.

RaceWon 7y ago

Hey that's a first... a motor that is actually a motor.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago

Neat. But still going to require a bunch of custom machining to adapt to the existing drivetrain and engine mount, and will need a custom box for battery, designed around the car chassis; plus DC-DC converter, charger, and computer systems.

tyingq 7y ago

"I suspect you could use two in one car for all-wheel drive and more power" Sure, I imagine that's super simple.

aj7 7y ago

Batteries?

olivermarks 7y ago

One thing to bear in mind when that converting ice vehicles to electric is that they are constructed with a vertical firewall between engine and driver with lots of protection around location of fuel tanks and fuel lines. EV's are typically designed with a horizontal fire wall to protect the occupants from the batteries beneath them, which become unstable in a violent impact and often burn repeatedly. The centre of gravity in an ICE vehicle is very different to an EV. It is therefore arguably better to build some sort of EV kit car with a crate motor than to attempt to convert an ICE monocoque imo

Skunkleton 7y ago
Most of the time a crate engine enters the equation there is some sort of hideously unsafe car waiting for it. Its safe to assume that if you are the kind of person installing a crate engine you have some sort of idea of what you are doing, and are capable of taking informed risks.
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  Your reasoning assumes people don't skip steps in the process of learning things. There are cliches to support my case. "Only knows enough to be dangerous" "More dollars than sense" That itself is dangerous. You're basically discouraging someone from offering advice to the general public because you think the knowledge is generally known, but that's just not the case. I have a general idea of what I'm doing but reading that comment changed my perspective of what is and isn't dangerous in a car and those dangers shift from ICE to electric. Frankly, I'm glad he opened my mind to the ideas.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >That itself is dangerous. You're basically discouraging someone from offering advice to the general public because you think the knowledge is generally known, but that's just not the case. And if you don't discourage it all discourse gets drowned out into a bunch of "hurr durr don't forget your jack stands" type virtue signaling (in the technical sense, not the politically loaded sense) about safety and you get Reddit. You can't please everyone.

simonklitj 7y ago

My daily driver is a 2009 Citroën C1 ev’ie. Converted by a company in Denmark with a conversion kit from a company in England. Sold to a car rental company and then I purchased it when they sold it at an auction. It’s pretty interesting, fun to drive. Would recommend a conversion for people able to get their hands on it. I like it so much more than an ICE.

hinkley 7y ago

About eight years ago there was a flash in the pan company that was claiming to be in late development stages on a drop in replacement for the alternator. Combine with a small supercap bank, it was intended to turn any car into a mild hybrid. What I can’t remember now is whether it simply stopped drawing power when you were accelerating, or if it actually ran as a dynamo when the throttle was open. They kept posting updates for a while but I think they must’ve figured out that reliability was a much bigger issue than they initially thought.

thenewwazoo 7y ago
Mazda has productionalized it and is shipping it in cars today: https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/
- hinkley 7y ago
  Yeah I think GM called them BAS or some such. I brought it up not for existing, but for being a retrofit kit.

newnewpdro 7y ago

Chevrolet is also preparing an EV crate motor alternative to the venerable small block chevy. https://insideevs.com/news/340975/chevy-camaro-ecopo-and-electric-crate-motor-detailed-in-interview/ https://insideevs.com/news/340975/chevy-camaro-ecopo-and-ele...

tomcam 7y ago

Crate engines are a neat concept I only learned about recently. Suppose you bought some awesome old car from 70s and its engine was on the way out. What if you don't want to risk a junkyard buy? You get a crate engine, that's what. Straight from the factory, ready to drop in a 50 year-old vehicle, and infinitely better made than they were back in the day. GM alone has dozens of engines available. They're not cheap--$8,000-$10,0000 isn't unusual--but what a cool option for a real enthusiast.

fragmede 7y ago
As long as you're custom building a car, Chevy sells the Corvette's engine[1] in a crate for $20k. Might also need to upgrade the transmission on a 50-year old car to handle it, but it's totally an option! [1]https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/ls9 https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/ls9
- Washuu 7y ago
  They also have the "Connect and Cruise" option that includes a transmission and a warranty. The E-Rod versions have a longer warranty and are CARB approved. https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertrain-systems https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/connect-cruise-powertr... My method was to get a low mileage drive train from a recent Camaro.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
It depends, they are used to give very meaningful life extensions to cars that otherwise are already very expensive to keep in a working stater. If it drives another 10-20 years with minimal need for maintenance, it's very reasonable. A few of the companies specializing in this type of conversions go out of their way that the conversion is fully reversible as well. In their view, putting the old motor back in should always be possible. Likewise, they anticipate similar upgrades will happen to the car again when new tech becomes available in a few decades. A few car manufacturers (VW, Aston Martin) have started supporting these conversions as well for some of their classics. There's also an emerging market for converting non classic cars simply for cost reasons. It's usually the ICE bits in a car that break down. The rest could still go for another few hundred thousand miles with a new drivetrain.

rasz 7y ago

Motor is the easy cheap part. Batteries is where its at. > it’s essentially the same drivetrain used in their EV-converted classic Mini, so if it fits under a Mini’s hood, it should fit almost anywhere. Author doesnt realize you can fit Honda B16B in the classic Mini https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8RLM8eWRU&list=PLp0KnUFYB--g4RJ0SomuWRqckXHCYkabS&index=13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8RLM8eWRU&list=PLp0KnUFYB-...

SteveGerencser 7y ago

While sticking a 110hp electric motor into a car might have some appeal, I am FAR more interested in putting it in a small plane. A Rotax 912 is roughly the same horsepower and a few pounds heavier. Using this electric motor as a replacement for that for short joyrides around the patch has real potential in the experimental / homebuilt crowd. With the standard caveats of batteries and weight issues.

TylerE 7y ago
The energy density of batteries isn't close to good enough. Small personal aircraft have a _very_ narrow weight allowance - and do remember the FAA mandates a minimum of 30 minutes of reserve fuel.
coupdejarnac 7y ago
Look up Peter Sripol on youtube. He homebuilt an electric airplane or three.

lisper 7y ago

For those who, like me, are wondering what a crate engine is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crate_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crate_engine

tmh88j 7y ago
They're hugely popular amongst auto enthusiasts. Not only do "race shops" sell crate engines, but most OEM's sell them too. For example, here are Chevy's offerings. https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines

ourmandave 7y ago

The drivetrain includes multiple mounting points and it’s designed to be flexible enough to be mounted by either axle of the car, front or rear. That should be "... mounted by BOTH axles of the car, front AND rear." Why should only Teslas have Ludicrous Mode?

RickJWagner 7y ago

That's awesome! Awaiting further news while I dream about what kind of vehicle to drop it in.

csours 7y ago

No price listed yet, and only 110 HP. It's hard to find a car with only 110 HP today (at least in the USA). I know that electric motors have instant torque, but once you pass 30 mph, that low HP will really start to be a drag.

Animats 7y ago

It hooks to the driveshaft, so you get rid of the transmission. That's a win. Fewer problems, and more space for batteries. YC has a company in this space: "Open Motors"[1] They sell a "sled" on which you can put kit car bodies. [1] https://www.openmotors.co/product/tabby-evo/ https://www.openmotors.co/product/tabby-evo/

m0zg 7y ago

This needs to come with an crate battery that you can also drop into your car, as well as a wiring harness to hook up the pedals, ignition, telemetry, and so on and so forth. Without all that you can't really "drop it into your car".

perl4ever 7y ago

Batteries unfortunately are expensive and heavy and hard to find space for in a car designed for an ICE. So what I have been idly dreaming of is taking a classic car and making a very simple hybrid - use an electric motor like this, the smallest battery and gas engine possible, and only connect the motor and gas engine to the battery, not to each other, but only have enough battery to buffer acceleration needs. Mileage wouldn't be fantastic, but you'd have electric torque and smoothness, and the gas engine could run at one constant speed as a generator.

igor47 7y ago
this is known as a "serial" hybrid, vs. the more common parallel hybrid like the prius. i think these are really cool. one of the benefits is, as battery technology improves, you can eventually dump the ICE generator but keep the same exact everything else.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  My thinking is that battery technology will never improve enough to make a larger battery smaller, lighter, and less expensive than a smaller one. ...but ICEs will never improve to make acceleration competitive with even present day electric motors.
anticensor 7y ago
Why you would need a constant speed engine, though? Railway engines do fine with variable speed industrial specification prime movers. Constant speed ratings are 30% lower than automotive grade ratings, too.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I meant that loosely, just that without a big R&D budget, the programming would need a KISS approach. Maybe even use an off the shelf generator.

joshu 7y ago

Looks like it replaces the rear diff. So not a drop-in replacement.

kube-system 7y ago
It's a drop-in for vehicles with transverse engine configurations.

Robotbeat 7y ago

Super inefficient. Need to do cleansheet electric car design like Tesla.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
That's not the point. The point is to have a second option for "engines you can drop into classic cars with nothing more than a credit card" (the first option being an LS).

pugworthy 7y ago

110 HP upgrade to my MG Midget (about 65 HP for the 1275) would be almost a waste. That said, I like the idea of this upgrade.

hinkley 7y ago
It’d be just about right in a TR6 or a GT6 though. If your MG body is solid you might be able to get away with it but if it’s rusty, that torque could be bad. There’s plenty of room under the hood of a spitfire for a bigger engine but I’d heard you have to upgrade the half shafts if you do as they’re the weak point. That and maybe weld some plates into the hourglass section of the frame. But they were around 100hp already. The monobody on the MG might be okay if it’s not full of holes...
thedaemon 7y ago
So it's almost doubling your horsepower, not to mention the full torque of an electric motor, which is to say you get all of your torque available from 0. A Midget with this 110HP electric motor would absolutely destroy your 65HP petrol engine Midget!

sabujp 7y ago

great now i just need a mechanic who will do the entire conversion

jaclaz 7y ago

From the manufacturer site: https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx >So compact is the 70kg HPD EV powertrain - 600mm wide by 440mm deep by as little as 280mm tall, that the motor, inverter, single-speed transmission and cooling system assembly fits under the bonnet of a classic Mini, in a quad bike or under the loading platform of a light commercial vehicle I can see an utility of a (relatively) low cost version of something like this for a large part of services (think of repairmen/electricians/plumbers/small couriers) that could maybe make their vans "hybrid" without replacing them, and even if they wouldn't have that much of autonomy, it could be enough to allow for entering city centres on electric (at the cost of some reduced carrying load, lost to the batteries) and do the delivery/whatever without polluting there. At least here (Italy/Europe) a lot of cities have pollution issues that they try to resolve by limiting traffic to vehicles older than a given Euro level or even entirely prohibiting ICE vehicles circulation. That is a problem for a large number of small activities that cannot afford to buy (besides their current ICE one) another electric van for the city.

nonford150 7y ago

This sounds great for a small 4 cylinder vehicle - until you start thinking about most cars today only have power steering so a manual steering box isn't available. Then you need a 12V battery to operate most of the lights, speedometer, radio, etc. What do you charge this with? If you do a step down transformer there's more of your range eaten up. Then there's other power stuff: seats, wonders, wipers and roofs. More range bye-bye. Sounds like you would still need some other power source to make all of the modern creature comforts in a standard ICE powered vehicle operate.