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I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark humor ("You don't like the boss? Don't worry, you'll only have to deal with him for a couple more years (because you won't quit) and then the company will go under and you'll have to work somewhere else with a similar boss"). The humor is to mostly try to diffuse how harsh these statements can seem to others, and because I find them legitimately morosely funny, but for some reason I tend not to get laughter when I say them... So I try to keep this "depressive realism" to myself most of the time. I promise I have social skills. That's probably my biggest consistent faux pas. But sometimes I wonder why I can lose friends so fast by just saying things that are true or are very likely to be true. I guess a lot of people don't like to see that clearly? I don't know.

jrs235 7y ago
I feel like I relate. > So I try to keep this "depressive realism" to myself most of the time. Do you ever start to feel alone, isolated, and mis- or not understood too?
- rtkaratekid 7y ago
  Nah, I used to, but then I realized that I DO have things in common with people. Just because I don't have everything in common doesn't mean I have to isolate myself from them. It just means that some parts of my life are more applicable to certain relationships then others. I'm not a social butterfly by any means and spend a lot of my time semi-alone, but I don't feel alone or isolated. Misunderstood? Sometimes. But I make a conscious effort to BE understood when I feel it's important.
- shantly 7y ago
  > Do you ever start to feel alone, isolated, and mis- or not understood too? Reading literature helps. It largely deals with the big, sad themes & topics of life and existence. Yes, the "stuffy" "canon" stuff. At least you know all these famous (or famous among lit-reading folks, anyway) authors saw the same things you do, then, which is a kind of camaraderie. Hell, Gilgamesh is about this stuff, very directly. Egyptian didactic literature treats of it. The Bible. Homer and the Greek tragedians. It's been around as long as we've had written culture, basically. You Are Not Alone (aside from how you totally, completely are, naturally! hahaha). Then find other people who read that stuff and talk with them about it and set up dinner & wine parties to talk about it and hey you guys wanna go see the latest Lars Von Trier film and congratulations, you've distracted yourself from the fundamental horror at the center of existence by way of engaging with it, mission accomplished.
davemp 7y ago
There are things that just aren't worth thinking about and people don't appreciate reminders.
rocelot 7y ago
The other day someone was remarking how quickly one's luck can change (for the better). I don't disagree but for whatever reason my response was, "yah, life is full of ups and downs, the trick is to die on one of the upticks". I thought it was hilarious. They thought I was morbid and cynical. Go figure!
- nicky0 7y ago
  Some people are unprepared to consider their own death.
- rtkaratekid 7y ago
  I definitely snorted out loud at work trying not to laugh at this...
- ok_coo 7y ago
  A saying I used at my old job was, "It could be worse, you could be face-down in a ditch somewhere." I thought it was funny and meant to improve people's perspective. Most people thought it was morbid too, so I had to stop. Personally, I think a little dark humor helps people get by but that's just me. :)
  - kls 7y ago
    Be careful with that one, if they where older they could have found it offensive. Ira Hayes an American War hero of WW2 died drunk in a ditch and if IRCC "dead in a ditch" was coined as morbid reference to that event, and was not always used in the best light when referring to American Indians. It can evoke stereotypes of American Indians and alcohol abuse as he was more remembered at the time for his death, rather than for being one of the few Marines that survived to raise the flag at Iwo Jima.
    - a_sane_person 7y ago
      Oh for crying out loud, can we not do this for once? No one, literally no one, using the incredibly common idiom of "dead in a ditch" is thinking of or referencing anything to do with Native Americans, alcohol or this person you've just referenced who I've never heard of before. There is roughly a 0% chance that someone saying that phrase means it, or has ever even heard of it as, the weird imaginary negative stereotype usage you've claiming here.
esotericn 7y ago
I've found a lot of correlation between this sort of sense of humour and the type of place I enjoy working at. Me and straight laced folk just don't get on. It doesn't work. There's an impedance mismatch whereby there are all of these invisible lines that I cross without even realising. Like yeah, dude, your job is bullshit. So is mine. Life is, and then you die. If you're not fucking around and having (harmless) fun, what are you doing? Those sorts of people need to exist - society would fall apart if everyone were so freewheeling - but I definitely seem to self select out of those groups.
- monktastic1 7y ago
  To paraphrase Alan Watts, don't trust anyone who isn't in on the Great Cosmic Joke :)
  - enobrev 7y ago
    This isn't a direct response to you, but moreso to this thread. There are some who are in on the joke and have even found quite a bit of humor in it, but no longer find that humor useful. It's like an old joke which was hilarious and insightful at one point but has been told too many times to remain interesting. I for one tend to envy those who either don't know or don't care. Being cynical seemed cool and somehow "smarter" for some time, and then eventually it can, for some, seem just as naive. I'd rather look at life earnestly. Yes, it's all fucked and we've no control over it. Society is a fiction, etc. But I'd rather love my wife, do work I enjoy, and not point out the absurdity all day every day to myself and others, because it's just an old stupid joke to which we _all_ happen to be the punchline.
    - esotericn 7y ago
      It doesn't need to be pointed out, sure, but it's useful every day to keep in mind, I think, because it allows you to think about what really matters (as you say, your wife, for example). It's that kind of 'realistic' mindset that lets you look through a situation in which you're playing a role, and someone else is playing a role, and just be people.
lidHanteyk 7y ago
I have given up on understanding it. I will say something that I think is a straightforward observation, or serious advice, and people will chuckle and laugh and say, "yeah, good joke," or "that's funny." If I ask to be taken seriously, then people are suddenly horrified, mortified, or freaked out.
cryoshon 7y ago
keeping my realist comments to myself took me more than two decades to become competent at. it'll take me another two decades to master. the trick is to understand that all people live in a marginal headspace where engagement with the nature of the world is heavily filtered and limited so that their psychology can continue to mostly function on a day to day basis. this is true whether you are a "realist" or "pessimist" or "optimist". piercing the veil is uncomfortable and unwanted for most people, and it doesn't necessarily provide them with any value to have their comforting or familiar illusions destroyed. in a sense, it's rude if you pop their bubble. in other words, some people don't see the humor in dark humor because they are unfamiliar with darkness, and it scares them. for me, graveyard humor is the best way to tolerate things. but it's important to know your audience.
- rtkaratekid 7y ago
  Piercing the veil... what an appropriate turn of phrase. I resonate a lot with your third paragraph. I also think it can be rude and unnecessary to expose people to this paradigm if they're not ready. It's a bad analogy, but it's almost like poison. If you're used to some types of poison, they wont cause injury, but if you're not... it could kill you. Trouble is, in my mind life is filled with these poisons and people often only narrowly avoid them-- if they do at all.
  - cryoshon 7y ago
    re: poisons, it isn't a bad analogy because you're referencing the dose-response curve. many of our medicines are "poisons" in the sense that if you take them in a large enough dose, they will kill you. but a small dose can be therapeutic, in the right context. likewise, a dose of reality-groundedness is a necessity to navigate life correctly. some people can tolerate the side effects of higher doses better than others, however.
  - jrs235 7y ago
    I recommend the following book under a few caveats the first one being no one without their highschool diploma or G.E.D. (General Education Diploma) should read it. The Underachiever's Manifesto: The Guide to Accomplishing Little and Feeling Great (Funny Self-Help Book, Guide to Lowering Stress and Dealing with Perfectionism) https://amzn.to/2pvYI6b https://amzn.to/2pvYI6b It will surely pierce a lot of people's beliefs.
trts 7y ago
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh. Otherwise, they will kill you." Not sure who this is attributed to but I remember it not infrequently.
x2f10 7y ago
>But sometimes I wonder why I can lose friends so fast by just saying things that are true or are very likely to be true. I am like you. However, I hold the old quote to be true: "People may not remember exactly what you did, or what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel." It doesn't matter if the things are true or not. You stating those things makes people feel scared, worried, and/or defeated. If you had those feelings when another person was around, how often would you want them around? This is not a criticism but simply another viewpoint.
- rtkaratekid 7y ago
  Definitely! Which is why I try to moderate myself. I don't want to bring people down by any means at all.
bena 7y ago
I had a small application that was going to debut for the higher ups. It pulled in data from multiple sources. Somebody asked me if I was nervous because the head of the organization was going to see it. I told him "We're all going to be dead in 50 or so years and none of this will have mattered. So, not really." The response was "Holy shit, that's dark". But I think I do use nihilism to cope with potentially anxious thoughts. I know that I can't make any meaningful contributions to the universe on any sort of scale that would be noticeable. So making a mistake isn't the worst thing in the world.
blotter_paper 7y ago
Oh man, I can totally relate to that. I was working as a line-cook, and my direct manager was talking to me in private about how proud he was of progressing to management in a short period of time. I said something like, "yeah, but at the end of the day you're a manager at a shitty taco place." I meant it in a dark, lighthearted, joking-not-joking sort of way. He brought that interaction up for months, saying that I gave him an existential crisis. He actually thanked me for the "wake up call" and started saving some money as a result of it, but I still felt bad.
- patcon 7y ago
  This made me smile. You sound like a really empathetic less-empathetic person..! And I mean that in a grateful way. (By "less-empathetic" I just mean it sounds like you don't spend a ton of energy constantly doing social navigation of the mental spaces of others, like an empath such as myself might.) I feel that not many people walk the line you're walking, and so I feel like you're prob bridging the "pessimistic realism" chasm for others, and helping them derive the value of seeing it (but you're recognizing that it can hurt others to be presented it too clearly).
ummwhat 7y ago
I personally end every meeting I can with "time is a construct and we're all going to die".
sharadov 7y ago
I would like to be your friend.
jacobolus 7y ago
I have had various friends over the years who were clever and funny but relentlessly cynical. I found spending time with them to be quite enjoyable and amusing, but only for limited amounts of time, occasionally. With too much exposure their cynicism just got tedious. The edgy jokes lost their edge. The worldview seemed more defeatist-for-its-own-sake than inherently more perceptive than alternatives. Making fun of all the clueless optimistic imbeciles out there started to seem pointlessly mean. The conversations started to get boring and repetitive. YMMV.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I'm actually not prone to depression, but I am prone to the kinds of observations you describe. It gets me a lot of hatred and I've worked at finding acceptable outlets. Not only am I not prone to depression, my mother called me Shirley Temple when I was little (in part because of my sunny disposition). I can kind of relate to Sara from Jake Long, American Dragon. She's a Seer or Oracle who only sees all the bad outcomes. Her twin sister, Kara, only sees good outcomes. Sara is always in a good mood because all of her surprises in life are pleasant surprises. Kara is always in a bad mood because life is a huge disappointment that never lives up to her rosy visions of the future. https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Sara_and_Kara https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Sara_and_Kara Conclusion: One's own attitude -- whether it is positive or negative -- is not the issue per se. Overly accurate observations about how life works socially are simply unwelcome by most people for reasons unrelated to that metric.
derangedHorse 7y ago
Nothing’s wrong with some dark humor but careful not to also deliver the joke wit too much conviction. If everyone is kind of in on it or the observation can be substantiated then go for it, but the article also shouldn’t underplay the “shit-colored” glasses that some people with depression have (that may or may not color the perspective of the depressed as much as the delusions of the optimistic). I say this because I have met people with depression who definitely do distort things constantly with no logical basis, and try and slip in their viewpoints as jokes. I’ve typically found these depressed individuals to be especially unpalatable when they stop making sense.

jrs235 7y ago

I feel like I relate. > So I try to keep this "depressive realism" to myself most of the time. Do you ever start to feel alone, isolated, and mis- or not understood too?

rtkaratekid 7y ago
Nah, I used to, but then I realized that I DO have things in common with people. Just because I don't have everything in common doesn't mean I have to isolate myself from them. It just means that some parts of my life are more applicable to certain relationships then others. I'm not a social butterfly by any means and spend a lot of my time semi-alone, but I don't feel alone or isolated. Misunderstood? Sometimes. But I make a conscious effort to BE understood when I feel it's important.
shantly 7y ago
> Do you ever start to feel alone, isolated, and mis- or not understood too? Reading literature helps. It largely deals with the big, sad themes & topics of life and existence. Yes, the "stuffy" "canon" stuff. At least you know all these famous (or famous among lit-reading folks, anyway) authors saw the same things you do, then, which is a kind of camaraderie. Hell, Gilgamesh is about this stuff, very directly. Egyptian didactic literature treats of it. The Bible. Homer and the Greek tragedians. It's been around as long as we've had written culture, basically. You Are Not Alone (aside from how you totally, completely are, naturally! hahaha). Then find other people who read that stuff and talk with them about it and set up dinner & wine parties to talk about it and hey you guys wanna go see the latest Lars Von Trier film and congratulations, you've distracted yourself from the fundamental horror at the center of existence by way of engaging with it, mission accomplished.

davemp 7y ago

There are things that just aren't worth thinking about and people don't appreciate reminders.

rocelot 7y ago

The other day someone was remarking how quickly one's luck can change (for the better). I don't disagree but for whatever reason my response was, "yah, life is full of ups and downs, the trick is to die on one of the upticks". I thought it was hilarious. They thought I was morbid and cynical. Go figure!

nicky0 7y ago
Some people are unprepared to consider their own death.
rtkaratekid 7y ago
I definitely snorted out loud at work trying not to laugh at this...
ok_coo 7y ago
A saying I used at my old job was, "It could be worse, you could be face-down in a ditch somewhere." I thought it was funny and meant to improve people's perspective. Most people thought it was morbid too, so I had to stop. Personally, I think a little dark humor helps people get by but that's just me. :)
- kls 7y ago
  Be careful with that one, if they where older they could have found it offensive. Ira Hayes an American War hero of WW2 died drunk in a ditch and if IRCC "dead in a ditch" was coined as morbid reference to that event, and was not always used in the best light when referring to American Indians. It can evoke stereotypes of American Indians and alcohol abuse as he was more remembered at the time for his death, rather than for being one of the few Marines that survived to raise the flag at Iwo Jima.
  - a_sane_person 7y ago
    Oh for crying out loud, can we not do this for once? No one, literally no one, using the incredibly common idiom of "dead in a ditch" is thinking of or referencing anything to do with Native Americans, alcohol or this person you've just referenced who I've never heard of before. There is roughly a 0% chance that someone saying that phrase means it, or has ever even heard of it as, the weird imaginary negative stereotype usage you've claiming here.

esotericn 7y ago

I've found a lot of correlation between this sort of sense of humour and the type of place I enjoy working at. Me and straight laced folk just don't get on. It doesn't work. There's an impedance mismatch whereby there are all of these invisible lines that I cross without even realising. Like yeah, dude, your job is bullshit. So is mine. Life is, and then you die. If you're not fucking around and having (harmless) fun, what are you doing? Those sorts of people need to exist - society would fall apart if everyone were so freewheeling - but I definitely seem to self select out of those groups.

monktastic1 7y ago
To paraphrase Alan Watts, don't trust anyone who isn't in on the Great Cosmic Joke :)
- enobrev 7y ago
  This isn't a direct response to you, but moreso to this thread. There are some who are in on the joke and have even found quite a bit of humor in it, but no longer find that humor useful. It's like an old joke which was hilarious and insightful at one point but has been told too many times to remain interesting. I for one tend to envy those who either don't know or don't care. Being cynical seemed cool and somehow "smarter" for some time, and then eventually it can, for some, seem just as naive. I'd rather look at life earnestly. Yes, it's all fucked and we've no control over it. Society is a fiction, etc. But I'd rather love my wife, do work I enjoy, and not point out the absurdity all day every day to myself and others, because it's just an old stupid joke to which we _all_ happen to be the punchline.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    It doesn't need to be pointed out, sure, but it's useful every day to keep in mind, I think, because it allows you to think about what really matters (as you say, your wife, for example). It's that kind of 'realistic' mindset that lets you look through a situation in which you're playing a role, and someone else is playing a role, and just be people.

lidHanteyk 7y ago

I have given up on understanding it. I will say something that I think is a straightforward observation, or serious advice, and people will chuckle and laugh and say, "yeah, good joke," or "that's funny." If I ask to be taken seriously, then people are suddenly horrified, mortified, or freaked out.

cryoshon 7y ago

keeping my realist comments to myself took me more than two decades to become competent at. it'll take me another two decades to master. the trick is to understand that all people live in a marginal headspace where engagement with the nature of the world is heavily filtered and limited so that their psychology can continue to mostly function on a day to day basis. this is true whether you are a "realist" or "pessimist" or "optimist". piercing the veil is uncomfortable and unwanted for most people, and it doesn't necessarily provide them with any value to have their comforting or familiar illusions destroyed. in a sense, it's rude if you pop their bubble. in other words, some people don't see the humor in dark humor because they are unfamiliar with darkness, and it scares them. for me, graveyard humor is the best way to tolerate things. but it's important to know your audience.

rtkaratekid 7y ago
Piercing the veil... what an appropriate turn of phrase. I resonate a lot with your third paragraph. I also think it can be rude and unnecessary to expose people to this paradigm if they're not ready. It's a bad analogy, but it's almost like poison. If you're used to some types of poison, they wont cause injury, but if you're not... it could kill you. Trouble is, in my mind life is filled with these poisons and people often only narrowly avoid them-- if they do at all.
- cryoshon 7y ago
  re: poisons, it isn't a bad analogy because you're referencing the dose-response curve. many of our medicines are "poisons" in the sense that if you take them in a large enough dose, they will kill you. but a small dose can be therapeutic, in the right context. likewise, a dose of reality-groundedness is a necessity to navigate life correctly. some people can tolerate the side effects of higher doses better than others, however.
- jrs235 7y ago
  I recommend the following book under a few caveats the first one being no one without their highschool diploma or G.E.D. (General Education Diploma) should read it. The Underachiever's Manifesto: The Guide to Accomplishing Little and Feeling Great (Funny Self-Help Book, Guide to Lowering Stress and Dealing with Perfectionism) https://amzn.to/2pvYI6b https://amzn.to/2pvYI6b It will surely pierce a lot of people's beliefs.

trts 7y ago

"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh. Otherwise, they will kill you." Not sure who this is attributed to but I remember it not infrequently.

x2f10 7y ago

>But sometimes I wonder why I can lose friends so fast by just saying things that are true or are very likely to be true. I am like you. However, I hold the old quote to be true: "People may not remember exactly what you did, or what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel." It doesn't matter if the things are true or not. You stating those things makes people feel scared, worried, and/or defeated. If you had those feelings when another person was around, how often would you want them around? This is not a criticism but simply another viewpoint.

rtkaratekid 7y ago
Definitely! Which is why I try to moderate myself. I don't want to bring people down by any means at all.

bena 7y ago

I had a small application that was going to debut for the higher ups. It pulled in data from multiple sources. Somebody asked me if I was nervous because the head of the organization was going to see it. I told him "We're all going to be dead in 50 or so years and none of this will have mattered. So, not really." The response was "Holy shit, that's dark". But I think I do use nihilism to cope with potentially anxious thoughts. I know that I can't make any meaningful contributions to the universe on any sort of scale that would be noticeable. So making a mistake isn't the worst thing in the world.

blotter_paper 7y ago

Oh man, I can totally relate to that. I was working as a line-cook, and my direct manager was talking to me in private about how proud he was of progressing to management in a short period of time. I said something like, "yeah, but at the end of the day you're a manager at a shitty taco place." I meant it in a dark, lighthearted, joking-not-joking sort of way. He brought that interaction up for months, saying that I gave him an existential crisis. He actually thanked me for the "wake up call" and started saving some money as a result of it, but I still felt bad.

patcon 7y ago
This made me smile. You sound like a really empathetic less-empathetic person..! And I mean that in a grateful way. (By "less-empathetic" I just mean it sounds like you don't spend a ton of energy constantly doing social navigation of the mental spaces of others, like an empath such as myself might.) I feel that not many people walk the line you're walking, and so I feel like you're prob bridging the "pessimistic realism" chasm for others, and helping them derive the value of seeing it (but you're recognizing that it can hurt others to be presented it too clearly).

ummwhat 7y ago

I personally end every meeting I can with "time is a construct and we're all going to die".

sharadov 7y ago

I would like to be your friend.

jacobolus 7y ago

I have had various friends over the years who were clever and funny but relentlessly cynical. I found spending time with them to be quite enjoyable and amusing, but only for limited amounts of time, occasionally. With too much exposure their cynicism just got tedious. The edgy jokes lost their edge. The worldview seemed more defeatist-for-its-own-sake than inherently more perceptive than alternatives. Making fun of all the clueless optimistic imbeciles out there started to seem pointlessly mean. The conversations started to get boring and repetitive. YMMV.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I'm actually not prone to depression, but I am prone to the kinds of observations you describe. It gets me a lot of hatred and I've worked at finding acceptable outlets. Not only am I not prone to depression, my mother called me Shirley Temple when I was little (in part because of my sunny disposition). I can kind of relate to Sara from Jake Long, American Dragon. She's a Seer or Oracle who only sees all the bad outcomes. Her twin sister, Kara, only sees good outcomes. Sara is always in a good mood because all of her surprises in life are pleasant surprises. Kara is always in a bad mood because life is a huge disappointment that never lives up to her rosy visions of the future. https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Sara_and_Kara https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Sara_and_Kara Conclusion: One's own attitude -- whether it is positive or negative -- is not the issue per se. Overly accurate observations about how life works socially are simply unwelcome by most people for reasons unrelated to that metric.

derangedHorse 7y ago

Nothing’s wrong with some dark humor but careful not to also deliver the joke wit too much conviction. If everyone is kind of in on it or the observation can be substantiated then go for it, but the article also shouldn’t underplay the “shit-colored” glasses that some people with depression have (that may or may not color the perspective of the depressed as much as the delusions of the optimistic). I say this because I have met people with depression who definitely do distort things constantly with no logical basis, and try and slip in their viewpoints as jokes. I’ve typically found these depressed individuals to be especially unpalatable when they stop making sense.