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“Anything you post on the internet will be there forever” meme is becoming less true these days. Closed gardens that get shutdown without any notice, dead links

“Anything you post on the internet will be there forever” meme is becoming less true these days. Closed gardens that get shutdown without any notice, dead links run rampant, full reliance on cloud vendors for data storage.

CrankyBear 7y ago
It was never, ever true. Information on the web rots away at an amazing rate. For example, one of the first big tech stories covered on the web was the Microsoft-Netscape browser war and the resulting MSFT anti-trust trial. Have fun hunting down the original reporting. Well over 90% of it is gone.
- Macha 7y ago
  I found this when looking for information on the fact that there was apparently a lawsuit over gnu Emacs on the gosling thread.
- vntok 7y ago
  Try a Google search with date range, plenty of original results here: https://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+netscape+browser+war&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A2005&tbm= https://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+netscape+browser+w...
acollins1331 7y ago
Not necessarily a bad thing.
- segfaultbuserr 7y ago
  Not necessarily a bad thing for individuals, but definitely a bad thing for Internet users as a collective. Some Yahoo Groups are still active and has irreplaceable, valuable information that dates back to 2000.
  - tyfon 7y ago
    We should just have stayed with NNTP and usenet in general but it had a big flaw. It could not be controlled by corporations. It's a miracle that email has survived to this day using open protocols, but they're desperately trying to control that too using all kinds of blacklists and tricks to keep "regular" people out of setting up a private server.
mfer 7y ago
The meme is sorta true thanks to the Internet Archive. For me, it even has a snapshot of a personal site from 18 years ago in it.
- MrGilbert 7y ago
  Yep, same with me. I managed to get my old programs that I wrote 10+ years ago and feared to have lost along the way back thanks to the archive. Most of them even with the source code, as I released both the exe's and the source code back in the day.
taejo 7y ago
“Anything you post on the internet will be there as long as it's embarrassing and gone as soon as it would be useful”
thrownaway954 7y ago
This is a good thing. You shouldn't have to answer for every little thing about your past, especially if you have already owned it and moved on. the issue is that most people love drama and continue to bring things up and demand a response when it has already been responded to. Just go onto Youtube or Twitch and you'll see what I mean.
adrianmonk 7y ago
I don't think the meme was ever supposed to mean it's safe to rely on the internet to preserve your data. Instead, it means you should never assume you have the power to delete data once it's out there.
- lmkg 7y ago
  Funny how this is cutting both ways. If you want it gone, expect to be disappointed... and if you want it preserved, expect to be disappointed.
  - dangero 7y ago
    This is pretty true about reputation in general not just online
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    An alternative formulation is that if you want it gone, just wait, while if you want it preserved, save it yourself.
    - limomium 7y ago
      That's what I tell myself as I pirate everything online. Couldn't afford to preserve everything by buying it. The only way to guarantee preservation, personally, is to save it personally.
      - emiliobumachar 7y ago
        Even if you could afford to buy everything you care about, much of it is only legally available through DRM which limits or downright removes your capacity to ensure the availability of your copy to you.
      - vertis 7y ago
        Every so often you hear a story about a recording that was presumed lost but has been found on someones VHS collection[1]. Then there are examples like Marion Stokes[2] who recorded 71000 tapes over 30 years. Fast forward to today (ha ha), and I do think there is some justification for downloading 'pirate content' for archival purposes. In the same way that I think LibGen is a very important project even if it angers some. To be clear, I believe in buying the items I'm actually going to read or watch to support the creators. Not just pirating everything. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jun/28/apollo-11-tapes-moon-landing-sale-value-nearly-lost https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jun/28/apollo-11-ta... [2]: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/marion-stokes-television-news-archive https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/marion-stokes-televisi...
BuildTheRobots 7y ago
"Anything put on the internet can be used against you forever"
penagwin 7y ago
From a security perspective you must assume "Anything you post on the internet will be there forever". That's also why we tell kids that it'll be online forever - because there is no guarantee we remove all copies of it. However from a data integrity perspective you must hold the opposite perspective "Assume your copy is the only copy that exists", as you cannot guarantee other's have a copy of the data or will keep their copies. I'm personally very worried about what the internet will look like in 15 years. How many awesome communities, blogs, projects, etc. will disappear?
- segfaultbuserr 7y ago
  I'd just hope Hacker News never "upgrades" itself in the next 15 years so I can still find archives of previous discussions, including this thread. Hacker News is the center of technology, just like the Usenet Groups were the center from the late 70s to the mid-90s, that must be preserved as computer history. Our generation can see how the Internet started and how 4.3BSD worked by reading the Usenet archives, the future generations deserve to be able doing the same, learn how the Silicon Valley in the 2010s worked by reading Hacker News archives.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    > Hacker News is the center of technology Let's not pat ourselves on the back too hard.
    - segfaultbuserr 7y ago
      Okay, not the center, but possibly the largest general-interest forum near the center. Can you name another Internet forum where discussions are similar to general-interest Usenet tech groups, where even internal details or confidential information about tech companies such as Microsoft [0] or Oracle [1] leaks out from time to time? Mailing lists? Well, yes, but there are all single-topic forum. Twitter? Probably, but it's not a forum, and it's even responsible for killing the forums. Reddit? Those programming groups are large, but they are closer to newsfeed where you can submit links than a forum (Hacker News is also a newsfeed, but it's discussion-orientated, some people don't even read the news). Although some communities such as r/bitcoin has plenty of important history preserved here, but not a general-interest tech forum. 4chan? It has some historical significant for Internet subcultures, but probably not in general interest. Chatrooms? Yes. Freenode is still big, Discord has a lot of communities, but they are not forums. My conclusion about Hacker News being the center was after a long depression that the social media has killed large forums where long opinions are elaborated. But Hacker News is still kicking around, like it was 1995. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5689391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5689391 (original comment deleted, reposted here: http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-are-slower-than-other-oper/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-w...) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941
nothis 7y ago
I’m noticing this whenever browsing a website that has a curated list of links from 8+ years ago. Take Metacritic, for example. Try clicking any of the links for a game review on a system from 2 or 3 generations ago. I once tried this for a random, not-so-exotic game and like 80% of the links were dead.
brobdingnagians 7y ago
Good reason to have "Export Data" on every app you use (or create) and make it in a format which would be fairly easy to load somewhere else. Much better to make it easier on your users than to try to wall them into your product; your product will eventually disappear. Better to make quality products than dark patterns.
1024core 7y ago
> “Anything you post on the internet will be there forever” meme is becoming less true these days. That applies only to embarrassing stuff.

CrankyBear 7y ago

It was never, ever true. Information on the web rots away at an amazing rate. For example, one of the first big tech stories covered on the web was the Microsoft-Netscape browser war and the resulting MSFT anti-trust trial. Have fun hunting down the original reporting. Well over 90% of it is gone.

Macha 7y ago
I found this when looking for information on the fact that there was apparently a lawsuit over gnu Emacs on the gosling thread.
vntok 7y ago
Try a Google search with date range, plenty of original results here: https://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+netscape+browser+war&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A2005&tbm= https://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+netscape+browser+w...

acollins1331 7y ago

Not necessarily a bad thing.

segfaultbuserr 7y ago
Not necessarily a bad thing for individuals, but definitely a bad thing for Internet users as a collective. Some Yahoo Groups are still active and has irreplaceable, valuable information that dates back to 2000.
- tyfon 7y ago
  We should just have stayed with NNTP and usenet in general but it had a big flaw. It could not be controlled by corporations. It's a miracle that email has survived to this day using open protocols, but they're desperately trying to control that too using all kinds of blacklists and tricks to keep "regular" people out of setting up a private server.

mfer 7y ago

The meme is sorta true thanks to the Internet Archive. For me, it even has a snapshot of a personal site from 18 years ago in it.

MrGilbert 7y ago
Yep, same with me. I managed to get my old programs that I wrote 10+ years ago and feared to have lost along the way back thanks to the archive. Most of them even with the source code, as I released both the exe's and the source code back in the day.

taejo 7y ago

“Anything you post on the internet will be there as long as it's embarrassing and gone as soon as it would be useful”

thrownaway954 7y ago

This is a good thing. You shouldn't have to answer for every little thing about your past, especially if you have already owned it and moved on. the issue is that most people love drama and continue to bring things up and demand a response when it has already been responded to. Just go onto Youtube or Twitch and you'll see what I mean.

adrianmonk 7y ago

I don't think the meme was ever supposed to mean it's safe to rely on the internet to preserve your data. Instead, it means you should never assume you have the power to delete data once it's out there.

lmkg 7y ago
Funny how this is cutting both ways. If you want it gone, expect to be disappointed... and if you want it preserved, expect to be disappointed.
- dangero 7y ago
  This is pretty true about reputation in general not just online
- nostrademons 7y ago
  An alternative formulation is that if you want it gone, just wait, while if you want it preserved, save it yourself.
  - limomium 7y ago
    That's what I tell myself as I pirate everything online. Couldn't afford to preserve everything by buying it. The only way to guarantee preservation, personally, is to save it personally.
    - emiliobumachar 7y ago
      Even if you could afford to buy everything you care about, much of it is only legally available through DRM which limits or downright removes your capacity to ensure the availability of your copy to you.
    - vertis 7y ago
      Every so often you hear a story about a recording that was presumed lost but has been found on someones VHS collection[1]. Then there are examples like Marion Stokes[2] who recorded 71000 tapes over 30 years. Fast forward to today (ha ha), and I do think there is some justification for downloading 'pirate content' for archival purposes. In the same way that I think LibGen is a very important project even if it angers some. To be clear, I believe in buying the items I'm actually going to read or watch to support the creators. Not just pirating everything. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jun/28/apollo-11-tapes-moon-landing-sale-value-nearly-lost https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jun/28/apollo-11-ta... [2]: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/marion-stokes-television-news-archive https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/marion-stokes-televisi...

BuildTheRobots 7y ago

"Anything put on the internet can be used against you forever"

penagwin 7y ago

From a security perspective you must assume "Anything you post on the internet will be there forever". That's also why we tell kids that it'll be online forever - because there is no guarantee we remove all copies of it. However from a data integrity perspective you must hold the opposite perspective "Assume your copy is the only copy that exists", as you cannot guarantee other's have a copy of the data or will keep their copies. I'm personally very worried about what the internet will look like in 15 years. How many awesome communities, blogs, projects, etc. will disappear?

segfaultbuserr 7y ago
I'd just hope Hacker News never "upgrades" itself in the next 15 years so I can still find archives of previous discussions, including this thread. Hacker News is the center of technology, just like the Usenet Groups were the center from the late 70s to the mid-90s, that must be preserved as computer history. Our generation can see how the Internet started and how 4.3BSD worked by reading the Usenet archives, the future generations deserve to be able doing the same, learn how the Silicon Valley in the 2010s worked by reading Hacker News archives.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  > Hacker News is the center of technology Let's not pat ourselves on the back too hard.
  - segfaultbuserr 7y ago
    Okay, not the center, but possibly the largest general-interest forum near the center. Can you name another Internet forum where discussions are similar to general-interest Usenet tech groups, where even internal details or confidential information about tech companies such as Microsoft [0] or Oracle [1] leaks out from time to time? Mailing lists? Well, yes, but there are all single-topic forum. Twitter? Probably, but it's not a forum, and it's even responsible for killing the forums. Reddit? Those programming groups are large, but they are closer to newsfeed where you can submit links than a forum (Hacker News is also a newsfeed, but it's discussion-orientated, some people don't even read the news). Although some communities such as r/bitcoin has plenty of important history preserved here, but not a general-interest tech forum. 4chan? It has some historical significant for Internet subcultures, but probably not in general interest. Chatrooms? Yes. Freenode is still big, Discord has a lot of communities, but they are not forums. My conclusion about Hacker News being the center was after a long depression that the social media has killed large forums where long opinions are elaborated. But Hacker News is still kicking around, like it was 1995. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5689391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5689391 (original comment deleted, reposted here: http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-are-slower-than-other-oper/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-w...) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941

nothis 7y ago

I’m noticing this whenever browsing a website that has a curated list of links from 8+ years ago. Take Metacritic, for example. Try clicking any of the links for a game review on a system from 2 or 3 generations ago. I once tried this for a random, not-so-exotic game and like 80% of the links were dead.

brobdingnagians 7y ago

Good reason to have "Export Data" on every app you use (or create) and make it in a format which would be fairly easy to load somewhere else. Much better to make it easier on your users than to try to wall them into your product; your product will eventually disappear. Better to make quality products than dark patterns.

1024core 7y ago

> “Anything you post on the internet will be there forever” meme is becoming less true these days. That applies only to embarrassing stuff.