5 ms·

Moles are not unique to China, it just happens that China currently happens to be the enemy. Most people whether immigrant or not just want to get the work done

Moles are not unique to China, it just happens that China currently happens to be the enemy. Most people whether immigrant or not just want to get the work done and go home.

president 7y ago
The situation is a bit more unique with Chinese working/studying abroad. Since most of their families, friends, and relatives are still in China, they can be coerced by the CCP to engage in espionage out of fear of hurting their families.
- z2 7y ago
  I'm confused by your main point. Do you mean, as opposed to other foreign workers and students on temporary work/student visas, who can somehow migrate their friends and family over and therefore be subject to less coercion?
  - president 7y ago
    No, I was pointing out that China is unique in that they would have no moral qualms in coercing their citizens abroad using violence. I'm sure my coworkers from the EU probably don't ever have to worry about being in a situation where they would have to choose between spying or hurting their family.
    - TkTech 7y ago
      I agree with you (Someone from France doesn't have to worry about the modern version of China's 9 generation purge[1]), but as a Canadian it's very common to see the Chinese students here wildly supportive of the CCP, including harassing and attacking Hong Kong protesters. I imagine the ones that are outspoken against the CCP have a much harder time going abroad in the first place. With a billion and a half citizens it's unlikely they lack for fanatics to exploit. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations
      - ekianjo 7y ago
        > I imagine the ones that are outspoken against the CCP have a much harder time going abroad in the first place. Resistance against the CCP is a very tiny minority since there is a heavy brainwashing about how great everything CCP does since kids go to school at a young age - and they never get any other version of reality.
        sangnoir 7y ago
        Do they also make 6 year-olds give a pledge of allegiance?
        aclsid 7y ago
        Kind of similar to North America in a way. And just like the Chinese, you guys don't realize it because as the saying goes, everybody thinks their crap doesn't stink. Sure in the case of China it is a more crude form of propaganda, but if you don't believe me, just try to find information about what happened in Ecuador just now in your newsmedia. That information was supressed by media conglomerates because of a pro-US president that ended up doing something wildly unpopular. Compare the same exact event happening in a country like Venezuela. You get the idea.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        Kind of similar to North America in a way. Not really the same. Americans are taught to love an abstract, idealised version of America, an eagle perched atop a flag, and it doesn’t really work, half of Americans hate even that, and that’s fine, no one really cares. Whereas the Chinese are taught to love a specific leader of a specific party operating a specific system, etc. And the consequences for not complying are harsh.
        swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
        As shitty as America is, we are allowed to criticize our government. And boy do we have a lot of harsh things to say about all of them.
    - yupolerist 7y ago
      Doesn’t Russia also threaten and coerce family members?
jkoberg 7y ago
Oh, awesome excuse. Carry on!
adventured 7y ago
> Moles are not unique to China, it just happens that China currently happens to be the enemy. The special position of China goes dramatically beyond that. I'm not sure you could downplay China's position more than what you just did. I'd almost confuse them for being Cuba by that description. For all but a few countries, stealing data on how to build the next great airplane, does not enable them to actually build it. The unique position of China is the combination of: vast resources and a very determined, centrally orchestrated, national will to pursue hegemony (now almost universally culturally regarded as their natural right). Pretending a mole from China is similar to a mole from most any other nation, is pretty absurd. No other nation other than the US has the capabilities that China now possesses. They have: extraordinary national wealth ($50x trillion in household wealth); extraordinary annual economic output; rather openly flaunted mercantilism; global leading manufacturing capabilities spanning nearly anything as needed and supply networks to match; a strong cohesive nationalism, supported by both the people (culture) and the leadership; very large, very potent tech capabilities, spanning everything from software to hardware, unrivaled by any nation other than the US; military spending that pretty well matches the US when you adjust for either PPP or just merely adjust for the difference in salaries; extremely large land & water territory, and all the benefits that go with it; nuclear weapons and military technology that by the day is getting close to parity with other elite militaries; an authoritarian system that is willing to entirely disregard human rights whenever it suits their national purpose at the time and a culture that heavily tolerates it; the ability to rapidly pursue epic scale, unmatched (eg Three Gorges) national construction and or engineering challenges at the snap of a CPC finger; and 18% of the world's population, for practical purposes an endless supply of relatively cheap labor of all types. Show me a bunch of other nations like that. In all of human history you can count on one hand the number of nations even remotely comparable to where China is now at, their general position and capability vs peers in the world order. And they're not quite done rising in power yet.
- alfromspace 7y ago
  Yeah...but do they have diversity? We win. /s
aclsid 7y ago
As a non-US nor Chinese national, I find it interesting how the US keeps creating these artificial enemies. Of course the Chinese are not pro-America but they are very much self-contained and just interested in making money. Aside from internal old and new revolutions, China have also had a long history of not invading other countries. I can understand that the US feels threatened by the massive competition created on the other side, but this is very rapidly leading to a similar situation like the anti-Japanese mentality that ended up stigmatizing a whole swath of people based on ethnicity alone.
- freyr 7y ago
  //
  - bcatanzaro 7y ago
    Yup. Lots of sleight-of-hand in this claim. China does have a long history of invading other countries, but they try to suppress knowledge of it. That’s why they’re so hypersensitive about the definition of China, because they’re hiding their present and former invasions. Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, all the islands inside the vague nine-dashed line... Even border disputes with India.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      > China does have a long history of invading other countries, but they try to suppress knowledge of it. China doesn't invade other countries, it just discovers inseparable parts of China.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    > Read up on what's happening today in Africa and Afghanistan. Or the many examples of state-sponsored corporate espionage and hacking. Are these not forms of invasion in 2019? I do recall a couple of countries invading Afghanistan, none of them named "China." If you're going to call building railroads, highways, power plants and other infrastructure in Africa an "invasion," that's just plain unreasonable. I get that you may find the amount of debt African nations are taking on troubling, but it's dangerous hyperbole to call this sort of thing an "invasion."

Moles are not unique to China, it just happens that China currently happens to be the enemy. Most people whether immigrant or not just want to get the work done and go home.

president 7y ago

The situation is a bit more unique with Chinese working/studying abroad. Since most of their families, friends, and relatives are still in China, they can be coerced by the CCP to engage in espionage out of fear of hurting their families.

z2 7y ago
I'm confused by your main point. Do you mean, as opposed to other foreign workers and students on temporary work/student visas, who can somehow migrate their friends and family over and therefore be subject to less coercion?
- president 7y ago
  No, I was pointing out that China is unique in that they would have no moral qualms in coercing their citizens abroad using violence. I'm sure my coworkers from the EU probably don't ever have to worry about being in a situation where they would have to choose between spying or hurting their family.
  - TkTech 7y ago
    I agree with you (Someone from France doesn't have to worry about the modern version of China's 9 generation purge[1]), but as a Canadian it's very common to see the Chinese students here wildly supportive of the CCP, including harassing and attacking Hong Kong protesters. I imagine the ones that are outspoken against the CCP have a much harder time going abroad in the first place. With a billion and a half citizens it's unlikely they lack for fanatics to exploit. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      > I imagine the ones that are outspoken against the CCP have a much harder time going abroad in the first place. Resistance against the CCP is a very tiny minority since there is a heavy brainwashing about how great everything CCP does since kids go to school at a young age - and they never get any other version of reality.
      - sangnoir 7y ago
        Do they also make 6 year-olds give a pledge of allegiance?
      - aclsid 7y ago
        Kind of similar to North America in a way. And just like the Chinese, you guys don't realize it because as the saying goes, everybody thinks their crap doesn't stink. Sure in the case of China it is a more crude form of propaganda, but if you don't believe me, just try to find information about what happened in Ecuador just now in your newsmedia. That information was supressed by media conglomerates because of a pro-US president that ended up doing something wildly unpopular. Compare the same exact event happening in a country like Venezuela. You get the idea.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        Kind of similar to North America in a way. Not really the same. Americans are taught to love an abstract, idealised version of America, an eagle perched atop a flag, and it doesn’t really work, half of Americans hate even that, and that’s fine, no one really cares. Whereas the Chinese are taught to love a specific leader of a specific party operating a specific system, etc. And the consequences for not complying are harsh.
        swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
        As shitty as America is, we are allowed to criticize our government. And boy do we have a lot of harsh things to say about all of them.
  - yupolerist 7y ago
    Doesn’t Russia also threaten and coerce family members?

jkoberg 7y ago

Oh, awesome excuse. Carry on!

adventured 7y ago

> Moles are not unique to China, it just happens that China currently happens to be the enemy. The special position of China goes dramatically beyond that. I'm not sure you could downplay China's position more than what you just did. I'd almost confuse them for being Cuba by that description. For all but a few countries, stealing data on how to build the next great airplane, does not enable them to actually build it. The unique position of China is the combination of: vast resources and a very determined, centrally orchestrated, national will to pursue hegemony (now almost universally culturally regarded as their natural right). Pretending a mole from China is similar to a mole from most any other nation, is pretty absurd. No other nation other than the US has the capabilities that China now possesses. They have: extraordinary national wealth ($50x trillion in household wealth); extraordinary annual economic output; rather openly flaunted mercantilism; global leading manufacturing capabilities spanning nearly anything as needed and supply networks to match; a strong cohesive nationalism, supported by both the people (culture) and the leadership; very large, very potent tech capabilities, spanning everything from software to hardware, unrivaled by any nation other than the US; military spending that pretty well matches the US when you adjust for either PPP or just merely adjust for the difference in salaries; extremely large land & water territory, and all the benefits that go with it; nuclear weapons and military technology that by the day is getting close to parity with other elite militaries; an authoritarian system that is willing to entirely disregard human rights whenever it suits their national purpose at the time and a culture that heavily tolerates it; the ability to rapidly pursue epic scale, unmatched (eg Three Gorges) national construction and or engineering challenges at the snap of a CPC finger; and 18% of the world's population, for practical purposes an endless supply of relatively cheap labor of all types. Show me a bunch of other nations like that. In all of human history you can count on one hand the number of nations even remotely comparable to where China is now at, their general position and capability vs peers in the world order. And they're not quite done rising in power yet.

alfromspace 7y ago
Yeah...but do they have diversity? We win. /s

aclsid 7y ago

As a non-US nor Chinese national, I find it interesting how the US keeps creating these artificial enemies. Of course the Chinese are not pro-America but they are very much self-contained and just interested in making money. Aside from internal old and new revolutions, China have also had a long history of not invading other countries. I can understand that the US feels threatened by the massive competition created on the other side, but this is very rapidly leading to a similar situation like the anti-Japanese mentality that ended up stigmatizing a whole swath of people based on ethnicity alone.

freyr 7y ago
//
- bcatanzaro 7y ago
  Yup. Lots of sleight-of-hand in this claim. China does have a long history of invading other countries, but they try to suppress knowledge of it. That’s why they’re so hypersensitive about the definition of China, because they’re hiding their present and former invasions. Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, all the islands inside the vague nine-dashed line... Even border disputes with India.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > China does have a long history of invading other countries, but they try to suppress knowledge of it. China doesn't invade other countries, it just discovers inseparable parts of China.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  > Read up on what's happening today in Africa and Afghanistan. Or the many examples of state-sponsored corporate espionage and hacking. Are these not forms of invasion in 2019? I do recall a couple of countries invading Afghanistan, none of them named "China." If you're going to call building railroads, highways, power plants and other infrastructure in Africa an "invasion," that's just plain unreasonable. I get that you may find the amount of debt African nations are taking on troubling, but it's dangerous hyperbole to call this sort of thing an "invasion."