4 ms·

So why is average pay for women across all positions less than men? It's not like Salesforce employees are doing heavy manual labor that skews itself towards hi

by jadell 7y ago

So why is average pay for women across all positions less than men? It's not like Salesforce employees are doing heavy manual labor that skews itself towards hiring more men. Why aren't women being hired in positions at the same rates as men (at which point we can then address the issue of pay inequality for the same position?) If this is an issue of "we're not hiring women to the same higher paid positions as men", that is a problem separate from the problem of "we're not paying women equally to men in the same position."

oarabbus_ 7y ago
Higher-paying executive and engineering positions tend to skew more male, and lower-paying executive assistant/secretarial/administrative positions tend to skew more female. There is plenty of overlap but the distribution skew results in men, on the aggregate, being paid slightly more than women.
- jadell 7y ago
  Then the focus should be on why aren't more women being hired for executive and engineering positions? I'm not putting all this on the hiring company; it starts much further back in the pipeline than that. So what is the company doing to get more women onto the track towards higher-paying executive and engineering positions, and keeping them on that track?
  - daseiner1 7y ago
    why is that their responsibility at all? Women are electing not to enter that “track;” it’s companies’ jobs to convince them to?
    - jadell 7y ago
      Are they not electing to because it doesn't interest them, or are they opting out/washing out due to other factors? Have links to any studies that show one way or the other?
  - weberc2 7y ago
    It's all well and good to understand why this is, but if the answer is "because, on average, women prefer a different distribution of work", then we should let that be. There's this creepy urge to pressure women to share exactly the same preference distributions as men. This restriction of women's choice for the sake of some neat gender parity is antithetical to human rights and equal opportunity.
    - jadell 7y ago
      > It's all well and good to understand why this is, but if the answer is "because, on average, women prefer a different distribution of work", then we should let that be. I haven't seen any research showing one way or the other why this is. Have any links to share? Edit: As a side question, if they really prefer a different distribution of work, why do we as a society punish them for it by valuing that work less than we value work generally done by men?
      - weberc2 7y ago
        Another poster linked to this, which is the clearest explanation I've seen to date: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender... The most likely explanation is not that society values male work more than female work, but rather that men prioritize work that is socially valuable (i.e., prefer salary compensation) while women prefer to do work that affords them more flexibility. No one is punishing anyone or being punished by anyone; just different kinds of compensation.
      - oarabbus_ 7y ago
        > Edit: As a side question, if they really prefer a different distribution of work, why do we as a society punish them for it by valuing that work less than we value work generally done by men? I think you are 100% mixing up correlation and causation. "We" don't value anything. The market places a value on things based on what individuals are willing to pay, and has no knowledge or care about the gender of the person performing the task.
      - 7y ago
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    I think there are a significant number of initiatives, groups, scholarships, etc which provide girls and women beginning at a young age the resources and tools and encouragement into the engineering track.
remarkEon 7y ago
You're supposing that women all want or aspire to the same types of positions that men do, which isn't true.
- bschne 7y ago
  If that is the case, it might still be problematic to have a society that economically disadvantages ~50% of its members for what they naturally strive for. Of course this gets philosophical and idealistic fast, but I think it's still worth considering even though it's not a simple design/engineering problem with some obvious perfect solution.
  - iroo9fkn 7y ago
    That’s fine that it gets idealistic fast. It’s been shown again and again we buy products and services that we think help us be our ideal self. Improving ours situation is an innate motivator. It’s a fools errand to keep slicing this up into finer grained stats like we seem keen to do. A simple question: does my ideal self involve being a material consumer of disposable shit to prop up the gambling habits of others or is there another way for me? That’s about all it takes. Assuming we’re inventing long lasting discoveries for the future of humanity by iterating on smartphone design, and web apps is contemporary social vanity. Like the piousness wars of old, we’re battling each other for more attention of those higher up the ladder. Forgetting they’re only in charge because we allow it. If the environment is on the brink, and they continue to refuse to negotiate a better deal in good faith, it’ll be up to the public to take control of the political discourse via government again. I wonder if that’s why they spend so much time indoctrinating is against that.
  - remarkEon 7y ago
    Ehh I'm not exactly convinced of this. There's a lot more factors to consider than raw earning potential, and I'm a little more inclined to be suspicious of trying to redirect people away from what they actually like to do.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    How could it be otherwise? I naturally strive to stay in bed in the morning and do a lot of hobby projects. That's what I'd like to do, but I'd never argue that other people should be forced to pay me some sort of "bed bonus" to ensure that my natural strivings don't disadvantage me. At a company like SalesForce, most of the most skilled employees will be developers and most of them will be men, because women, by and large, do not find computers interesting. Anyone who's ever tried to engage women in an enthusiastic conversation about programming languages knows this is true. The resulting "pay gap" isn't a pay gap at all but an earnings gap: it's correct and as it should be.
jimbokun 7y ago
> If this is an issue of "we're not hiring women to the same higher paid positions as men", that is a problem separate from the problem of "we're not paying women equally to men in the same position." Which is exactly the point. The solution may be much farther back in the pipeline, when young people are making educational choices, and can't be solved at the point companies are looking to hire someone.
- jadell 7y ago
  But it can be driven by those companies. Companies in the US have a huge influence on the educational pipeline, and in turn, who gets encouraged in that pipeline.
  - nradov 7y ago
    I live in Silicon Valley, and I've yet to see any major tech company representatives show up at our local school board meetings. Occasionally they kick in a small grant for a specific program. But their influence on the really important stuff like budgets, curriculum, and hiring is nearly zero.
    - jadell 7y ago
      Their influence is more at the level of university and higher-education. My personal opinion is that they should be doing more for K-12, but I hesitate to let large corporations be involved in deciding what gets taught and who gets hired in public schools. I'm not sure what their role is at that level.
linuxftw 7y ago
> heavy manual labor that skews itself towards hiring more men That's perpetuating a gender stereo type. > "we're not hiring women to the same higher paid positions as men", that is a problem separate from the problem of "we're not paying women equally to men in the same position." The former is a way to cover the latter. A woman might be employed in a role similar to a man, but the actual title of the position might be different, and thus different pay, even though their job function might be completely identical. > Why aren't women being hired in positions at the same rates as men Women face exclusion early in their careers (according to many women), so it's hard for them to have any level of experience. Most good paying jobs are mid to senior level, and those jobs are being filled by the endless supply of people that hold "Masters Degrees" from overseas.

by jadell 7y ago

oarabbus_ 7y ago

Higher-paying executive and engineering positions tend to skew more male, and lower-paying executive assistant/secretarial/administrative positions tend to skew more female. There is plenty of overlap but the distribution skew results in men, on the aggregate, being paid slightly more than women.

jadell 7y ago
Then the focus should be on why aren't more women being hired for executive and engineering positions? I'm not putting all this on the hiring company; it starts much further back in the pipeline than that. So what is the company doing to get more women onto the track towards higher-paying executive and engineering positions, and keeping them on that track?
- daseiner1 7y ago
  why is that their responsibility at all? Women are electing not to enter that “track;” it’s companies’ jobs to convince them to?
  - jadell 7y ago
    Are they not electing to because it doesn't interest them, or are they opting out/washing out due to other factors? Have links to any studies that show one way or the other?
- weberc2 7y ago
  It's all well and good to understand why this is, but if the answer is "because, on average, women prefer a different distribution of work", then we should let that be. There's this creepy urge to pressure women to share exactly the same preference distributions as men. This restriction of women's choice for the sake of some neat gender parity is antithetical to human rights and equal opportunity.
  - jadell 7y ago
    > It's all well and good to understand why this is, but if the answer is "because, on average, women prefer a different distribution of work", then we should let that be. I haven't seen any research showing one way or the other why this is. Have any links to share? Edit: As a side question, if they really prefer a different distribution of work, why do we as a society punish them for it by valuing that work less than we value work generally done by men?
    - weberc2 7y ago
      Another poster linked to this, which is the clearest explanation I've seen to date: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender... The most likely explanation is not that society values male work more than female work, but rather that men prioritize work that is socially valuable (i.e., prefer salary compensation) while women prefer to do work that affords them more flexibility. No one is punishing anyone or being punished by anyone; just different kinds of compensation.
    - oarabbus_ 7y ago
      > Edit: As a side question, if they really prefer a different distribution of work, why do we as a society punish them for it by valuing that work less than we value work generally done by men? I think you are 100% mixing up correlation and causation. "We" don't value anything. The market places a value on things based on what individuals are willing to pay, and has no knowledge or care about the gender of the person performing the task.
    - 7y ago
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  I think there are a significant number of initiatives, groups, scholarships, etc which provide girls and women beginning at a young age the resources and tools and encouragement into the engineering track.

remarkEon 7y ago

You're supposing that women all want or aspire to the same types of positions that men do, which isn't true.

bschne 7y ago
If that is the case, it might still be problematic to have a society that economically disadvantages ~50% of its members for what they naturally strive for. Of course this gets philosophical and idealistic fast, but I think it's still worth considering even though it's not a simple design/engineering problem with some obvious perfect solution.
- iroo9fkn 7y ago
  That’s fine that it gets idealistic fast. It’s been shown again and again we buy products and services that we think help us be our ideal self. Improving ours situation is an innate motivator. It’s a fools errand to keep slicing this up into finer grained stats like we seem keen to do. A simple question: does my ideal self involve being a material consumer of disposable shit to prop up the gambling habits of others or is there another way for me? That’s about all it takes. Assuming we’re inventing long lasting discoveries for the future of humanity by iterating on smartphone design, and web apps is contemporary social vanity. Like the piousness wars of old, we’re battling each other for more attention of those higher up the ladder. Forgetting they’re only in charge because we allow it. If the environment is on the brink, and they continue to refuse to negotiate a better deal in good faith, it’ll be up to the public to take control of the political discourse via government again. I wonder if that’s why they spend so much time indoctrinating is against that.
- remarkEon 7y ago
  Ehh I'm not exactly convinced of this. There's a lot more factors to consider than raw earning potential, and I'm a little more inclined to be suspicious of trying to redirect people away from what they actually like to do.
- repolfx 7y ago
  How could it be otherwise? I naturally strive to stay in bed in the morning and do a lot of hobby projects. That's what I'd like to do, but I'd never argue that other people should be forced to pay me some sort of "bed bonus" to ensure that my natural strivings don't disadvantage me. At a company like SalesForce, most of the most skilled employees will be developers and most of them will be men, because women, by and large, do not find computers interesting. Anyone who's ever tried to engage women in an enthusiastic conversation about programming languages knows this is true. The resulting "pay gap" isn't a pay gap at all but an earnings gap: it's correct and as it should be.

jimbokun 7y ago

> If this is an issue of "we're not hiring women to the same higher paid positions as men", that is a problem separate from the problem of "we're not paying women equally to men in the same position." Which is exactly the point. The solution may be much farther back in the pipeline, when young people are making educational choices, and can't be solved at the point companies are looking to hire someone.

jadell 7y ago
But it can be driven by those companies. Companies in the US have a huge influence on the educational pipeline, and in turn, who gets encouraged in that pipeline.
- nradov 7y ago
  I live in Silicon Valley, and I've yet to see any major tech company representatives show up at our local school board meetings. Occasionally they kick in a small grant for a specific program. But their influence on the really important stuff like budgets, curriculum, and hiring is nearly zero.
  - jadell 7y ago
    Their influence is more at the level of university and higher-education. My personal opinion is that they should be doing more for K-12, but I hesitate to let large corporations be involved in deciding what gets taught and who gets hired in public schools. I'm not sure what their role is at that level.

linuxftw 7y ago

> heavy manual labor that skews itself towards hiring more men That's perpetuating a gender stereo type. > "we're not hiring women to the same higher paid positions as men", that is a problem separate from the problem of "we're not paying women equally to men in the same position." The former is a way to cover the latter. A woman might be employed in a role similar to a man, but the actual title of the position might be different, and thus different pay, even though their job function might be completely identical. > Why aren't women being hired in positions at the same rates as men Women face exclusion early in their careers (according to many women), so it's hard for them to have any level of experience. Most good paying jobs are mid to senior level, and those jobs are being filled by the endless supply of people that hold "Masters Degrees" from overseas.