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Hong Kong protests: President Xi warns of 'bodies smashed'

247 points by headalgorithm 7y ago

tus88 7y ago
> This is widely seen as an unlikely scenario because of the serious consequences. Which are what exactly?
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  The token 12-18 month international boycott and sanctions that came after Tiananmen. America was most reluctant and one of the first to cave back to business as usual. Now that we're seeing some of the downsides of globalisation, perhaps the world community could hold its nerve longer. Or perhaps not as that's not a profit making stance.
  - cbames89 7y ago
    It could provide the motive to begin a(an even more?) massive automation push within the U.S. That could have long-term negative consequences for China.
    - vymague 7y ago
      I don’t know how it is in the US. But Kuka is at least owned by China, iirc.
      - QuitterStrip 7y ago
        Kuka is owned by the Chinese company Midea Group according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA
        paganel 7y ago
        A total trade war between the US/Europe and China could mean China being dropped out of the WTO and then some of its Western-owned entities to be nationalized by the countries involved. I know that pretty much nothing like this has happened on such a great scale, but there’s always a first.
      - flyinglizard 7y ago
        These robots are commodities. The value in automation is not in the robotic systems themselves but the tooling, processes and fixtures of the factory. These are usually locally (or nationally) sourced. With a bit of work you could pretty much take out any Kuka robot, install a comparable ABB robot or Fanuc and go on with production. (source - I designed a robotic manufacturing plant for consumer electronics and bought dozens of Kuka robots)
      - mpfundstein 7y ago
        I still hate the german government for allowing that to happen
        tekkk 7y ago
        It's no fun seeing your country's best companies being snatched up by Chinese companies, which your country's companies can't even consider buying. Same with Supercell although it went with Softbank as intermediary buyer. Oh well. At least they don't funnel their profits with tax schemes. But I guess it's hard to resist temptation of selling when they come with truckloads of money. We are all humans after all.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    > Now that we're seeing some of the downsides of globalisation, perhaps the world community could hold its nerve longer. The problem is that decades of globalization have all but wrecked domestic manufacture of many goods that China provides - not just cheap plastic toys but basically anything that requires lots of human assembly. A part of electronics manufacture could probably be picked up by Vietnam, Japan and South Korea but that's it, the world has shifted to China too much. In the long term it might be a sane option for the Western world to see Africa as more than just a dumping ground for excess food/clothing "donations" or a source for stealing fish, but that would require politicians with more long term vision than "how do I get reelected"...
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Even if limited to a 1 to 1.5 year(s) sanctions that would be far more damaging now than it was in 1989 due to fixed costs and dependencies. The most damaging aspect of the sanctions would be giving time for a competition to establish itself again while the outsourcing destination was unavailable - even if it takes the form of going to India instead of China.
lgvln 7y ago
I'm quite sure the phrase or idiom used by Xi is ”粉身碎骨“, which can be interpreted figuratively or literally. Funny how it reminds me exactly of the protesters crushed by the tanks at the Tiananmian Incident.
- lebenlechzer 7y ago
  Do you happen to have a source for what Xi said in Chinese?
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    “任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想” You can copy and paste in Google to find transcript from Chinese sources. 粉身碎骨 is an idiom used in a variety of contexts, largely not literally, some different usage: https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 It's generic language for saying "crushed", but western audiences with limited understanding of China will naturally think of tank treads.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      Are you saying it might only mean figuratively crushed? The quote from the article ("...perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder") has three separate allusions to death. Are all three of them being misinterpreted?
      - flag23147 7y ago
        Native Mandarin speaker here. All three separate allusions are a single attempt to translate the four-character Chinese idiom of 粉身碎骨, which is a figurative way of saying crushed to death. In this context, the meaning is the attempts to split China will be completely defeated and offenders subject to severe punishment.
        sgc 7y ago
chobeat 7y ago
> pro-democracy Lol, imagine thinking Tienanmen was about democracy (as in: liberal democracy). Westeners really cannot avoid making everything about themselves. Tienanmen was an attempt to revert the capitalistic, pro-market reforms that destroyed chinese society in the previous years and to protest the growing inequalities.
- dforrestwilson 7y ago
  democracy noun a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives. "capitalism and democracy are ascendant in the third world" Similar: representative government elective government constitutional government popular government self-government government by the people autonomy republic commonwealth Opposite: tyranny dictatorship a state governed by a democracy. plural noun: democracies "a multiparty democracy" control of an organization or group by the majority of its members. "the intended extension of industrial democracy" Not opposed to the ideals expressed at Tiananmen if they were attempting to regain control from a narrowing elite. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/democracy https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/democracy
- INGELRII 7y ago
  1989 Tienanmen protests were ignited by the death of pro-reform general secretary Hu Yaobang and the perceived notion that the party had mistreated him. They were the end of the movement that started with 1986 Chinese student demonstrations demanding academic freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of the press that he associated with the West. General secretary Hu Yaobang was removed because he did not try to crush these demonstrations and demands. The 1989 demonstrations demanded continued economic reform and liberalization, but he demands escalated. Students wanted guaranteed constitutional freedoms, fight corruption, adopt a press law, and allow the establishment of privately run newspapers (as in liberal democracy)
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests Inspired by Fang and other 'people-power' movements around the world, in December 1986, student demonstrators staged protests against the slow pace of reform. The issues were wide-ranging, and included demands for economic liberalization, democracy, and rule of law. [..] As its size grew, the gathering gradually evolved into a protest, as students began to draft a list of pleas and suggestions (Seven Demands) for the government: 1. Affirm Hu Yaobang's views on democracy and freedom as correct. 2. Admit that the campaigns against spiritual pollution and bourgeois liberalization had been wrong. 3. Publish information on the income of state leaders and their family members. 4. Allow privately run newspapers and stop press censorship. 5. Increase funding for education and raise intellectuals' pay. 6. End restrictions on demonstrations in Beijing. 7. Provide objective coverage of students in official media. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy > At this grim moment, what we need most is to remain calm and united in a single purpose. We need a powerful cementing force to strengthen our resolve: That is the Goddess of Democracy. Democracy...You are the symbol of every student in the Square, of the hearts of millions of people. ...Today, here in the People’s Square, the people’s Goddess stands tall and announces to the whole world: A consciousness of democracy has awakened among the Chinese people! The new era has begun! ...The statue of the Goddess of Democracy is made of plaster, and of course cannot stand here forever. But as the symbol of the people’s hearts, she is divine and inviolate. Let those who would sully her beware: the people will not permit this! ...On the day when real democracy and freedom come to China, we must erect another Goddess of Democracy here in the Square, monumental, towering, and permanent. We have strong faith that that day will come at last. We have still another hope: Chinese people, arise! Erect the statue of the Goddess of Democracy in your millions of hearts! Long live the people! Long live freedom! Long live democracy!
beloch 7y ago
Here's a sobering fact: HK's GDP was about 14% of China's GDP in 2000. Now it's about 2.4%. This is mainly due to growth in mainland China. HK is no longer China's golden goose, which is probably why China started this mess to begin with. From their viewpoint, HK's British hybrid law system is no longer worth putting up with. There's a very realistic possibility that China is going to crush resistance in HK by any means necessary. Keeping HK's economy and productivity intact probably aren't viewed to be important, but avoiding sanctions that would impact the entire country likely is. This really is a conflict in which the threat of economic sanctions might actually save lives, provided they're believable.
- flyinglizard 7y ago
  It's probably worth more to Xi to bring HK in line with the mainland to serve as a sobering example for other areas under Chinese rule.
- throwaway1997 7y ago
  GDP != Value. HK continues to be the jurisdiction of choice for mainland companies wishing to do business with the west and vice versa because the rule of law increases people's confidence in the validity of any contracts signed. The HK property and stock market is also where a huge amount of of Chinese money is parked. Neither of these contribute to GDP but provide a lot of value to the mainland.
  - starfallg 7y ago
    Can't stress this enough. The number one priority for the political and business classes is to tunnel their wealth overseas and the first port of call is usually Hong Kong. In the last decade, much of the HK stock market (and economy) is propped up by Chinese money and these outflows. Shell companies are sold in Hong Kong just because they are listed on the stock exchange - the underlying businesses are often spun-off as a part of the transaction and the resulting operation just a way to funnel money and business outside of Chinese capital controls. The property market is also full to the brim with money from the mainland. Hong Kong has a much stronger hand than most people realise, because of the fact that the Chinese elite themselves lack confidence in their own system on the mainland.
peter_retief 7y ago
The import of those words is horrific, for which there can be no excuse and no tolerance!
thiagoharry 7y ago
In Equador pacific protesters are being repressed by the government, protesters are being shoot by snipers and nobody cares. Geopolitical interests are a very crazy thing.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Almost like context matters. Because it's not just about Hong Kong protestors but about how China deals with thoughts and opinions that aren't of the ruling government.
- tekkk 7y ago
  I agree. Although this is indeed a sad state of affairs, there is a lot injustice going on the world right now that I feel are not getting the attention they deserve. I feel these news have been partly fueled by the Western propaganda machine, the counterpart of the troll factories employed by Russia etc. And I'm not the one who would often say that, it's just it seems a little bit out of proportion in the context of things. Like US is trying to pressure China for their own benefit. I don't know, I'm speculating of course but this is what it seems to me as a reasonably neutral observer. And although I'm pro-democracy and think the repression of HK citizens is wrong, I can understand the Chinese government's point of view and their cultural reasoning. I see China as the spiritual successor to Soviet Union which did the right choices for its continuation. And when Soviet Union fell apart it wasn't really a triumph of democracy that followed. Sure other Soviet Union states have been more successful but Russia itself seems to be chronically vulnerable to mafia-type people who will strong-arm themselves into power. Better than Soviet Union? I guess, but Chinese government doesn't seem interested in wanting to try out if democracy would work. I'm sure the government officials are also more concerned with their own selfish needs than just what would be the best for people. So far the only reason why I would see authoritarian government being good, is that it can act more powerfully than democratically elected government without having to fear their decisions weakening their re-election chances. Yet their privilege in being power only rests on their ability to force people to obey their orders - be it fear, bribery or mass-media brainwash. I don't think that kind of environment is sustainable and is definitely not an equilibrium state for humans to exist in. If something requires you to constantly keep distorting reality in order to keep it going, it can't be a long-term solution. And this is without taking in consideration the humanitarian problems, prevalence of corruption and the absence of critical thought.
egdod 7y ago
This is the regime that the NBA is bending over backwards (if not forwards) to satisfy.
- thatguyagain 7y ago
  Along with a bunch of other large american corporations.
Pigo 7y ago
What does the endgame look like here? Does anyone have a realistic prediction? I root for these people because I can just begin to imagine my city being taken over by a country that would just disappear me if I become inconvenient. But does it really have to come to a Braveheart style conclusion?
- save_ferris 7y ago
  Unlikely, as such an ending would probably have catastrophic consequences for Chinese trade and international relations. Tiananmen Square set Chinese diplomatic relations back well over a decade, and with their economy showing signs of a possible slowdown, they’re particularly conscious of the consequences that any militaristic response would have.
  - Pigo 7y ago
    So he's most likely talking tough with a statement like this? Just seems worrisome to hear him talking about grinding up bones.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    On the other side, while trying to force their way into the South China Sea, and still pretending that they own Taiwan, not being able to hold or control territory that everyone agrees is their's dramatically weakens their position on the global stage, and they can't really let the HKers win this one.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > for Chinese trade and international relations. It's a full blown military state guilty of several crimes against humanity, we have proof of muslim detention camps, sterilisation campaigns, destruction of churches, &c... doesn't look like anyone care as long as they build iphones and cpus. I doubt HK would be the last straw.
- flag23147 7y ago
  I predict that more likely the protests will subside over time without military intervention from the mainland. In Macau, another Chinese city under One Country Two Systems, people are generally very happy with the present political arrangement. Macau has an advanced economy with one of the highest GDP per capita in the world today. It is also a free and democratic society. Both economically and politically, China prefers HK to be like Macau at a larger scale (HK has over 10x population). The current situation seems to be necessary pains of growing up.
Merrill 7y ago
Maybe Xi had Taiwan in mind, not Hong Kong. Taiwan is very important to China.
- dmm 7y ago
  Because TSMC Taiwan is very important to the whole world.
duaoebg 7y ago
I don't see how these protests will be successful. I expect they will eventually lose and either fall in line or be replaced. I can't help but wonder how things would be different if the Hong Kong population was armed like Americans.
- adrr 7y ago
  Light arms vs a modern arms(tanks,planes,helicopters) is just suicide.
  - duaoebg 7y ago
    It changes the equation enough to make it not worth attacking. Also allows you to hold out long enough to import more weaponry from sympathetic regimes. Plus drone based weapons are cheap and effective.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > Light arms vs a modern arms(tanks,planes,helicopters) is just suicide. No, that's wrong. Conflicts like the one in Afghanistan show they can be effective against a well-equipped modern army, you just need to deploy them with the right (asymmetric) tactics.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      Meh, it's like saying New York could fight off the entire US army by using asymmetrical tactics. US invading Vietnam or Afghanistan isn't exactly the same: China is literally surrounding HK and has one of strongest army in the world. They could obliterate HK in a few hours. The only way I see it ending well is if somehow the military/police side with HK and China decide that it isn't worth the trouble. Even if China goes full berserk on HK I don't see the EU or US doing more than economic sanctions, and we all know this is as bad for US as it is for them.
      - CharlesColeman 7y ago
        > They could obliterate HK in a few hours. If the population of HK was sufficiently armed and motivated, the only way the PLA could do that "in a few hours" is with nukes. But you make a good point: asymmetric tactics can be countered with indiscriminate extermination. However the diplomatic fallout of such tactics is likely unacceptable, even to the PRC.
tzm 7y ago
I recommend watching Arthur Kent's documentary (2019) of Tiananmen Square. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI
danielneri 7y ago
Can anybody recommend good reading to catch up on the protests or history of Hong Kong vs. the mainland?
- ohnidoertous 7y ago
  I find the SCMP to have the best coverage. https://www.scmp.com/topics/hong-kong-protests https://www.scmp.com/topics/hong-kong-protests
  - wbl 7y ago
    Dont read mainland propaganda.
- hkmaxpro 7y ago
  ABC News: Inside the city caught between a British past and a Chinese future (with pretty pictures, videos & maps) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-13/hong-kong-protests-british-history-chinese-future-interactive/11469290 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-13/hong-kong-protests-br... Vox: 9 questions about the Hong Kong protests you were too embarrassed to ask https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/22/20804294/hong-kong-protests-9-questions https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/22/20804294/hong-kong-prote... These two articles were written in late Aug/mid Sep and do not contain the most recent developments.
polotics 7y ago
Please correct title: "and bones ground to powder"
hacknat 7y ago
At the end of the day China “owns” HK according to the rest of the world, so I see little hope of anything positive happening, especially since Nationalism is on the rise in the West. People like Trump are all to happy to engage in meaningless trade wars, but have little political ideology to espouse. What serious ally does HK have?
dwohnitmok 7y ago
This feels like "we will bury you" (https://books.google.com/books?id=ETQpY-32DysC&pg=PA238&dq="we+shall+outlive+you"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rBmUU5mPIevJsQSz64LADg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q="we%20shall%20outlive%20you"&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ETQpY-32DysC&pg=PA238&dq="...) all over again. The original is, as pointed out elsewhere, 任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想. http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-10/13/c_1125099224.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-10/13/c_1125099224.ht... I offer an alternative translation below since I find the BBC's translation overly literal and cherry-picked for a punchy headline, although there are certainly overtones of violence in the original idiom chosen. I've used the wheel to emphasize that the idiom ultimately is a brutal one, but not necessarily a literal one. For anyone who tries to mess around with separatism in any part of China, the only possible outcome is that they are broken upon the wheel. Any external forces which support the fracturing of China can only be seen by the Chinese people as delusional.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

247 points by headalgorithm 7y ago

tus88 7y ago

> This is widely seen as an unlikely scenario because of the serious consequences. Which are what exactly?

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
The token 12-18 month international boycott and sanctions that came after Tiananmen. America was most reluctant and one of the first to cave back to business as usual. Now that we're seeing some of the downsides of globalisation, perhaps the world community could hold its nerve longer. Or perhaps not as that's not a profit making stance.
- cbames89 7y ago
  It could provide the motive to begin a(an even more?) massive automation push within the U.S. That could have long-term negative consequences for China.
  - vymague 7y ago
    I don’t know how it is in the US. But Kuka is at least owned by China, iirc.
    - QuitterStrip 7y ago
      Kuka is owned by the Chinese company Midea Group according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KUKA
      - paganel 7y ago
        A total trade war between the US/Europe and China could mean China being dropped out of the WTO and then some of its Western-owned entities to be nationalized by the countries involved. I know that pretty much nothing like this has happened on such a great scale, but there’s always a first.
    - flyinglizard 7y ago
      These robots are commodities. The value in automation is not in the robotic systems themselves but the tooling, processes and fixtures of the factory. These are usually locally (or nationally) sourced. With a bit of work you could pretty much take out any Kuka robot, install a comparable ABB robot or Fanuc and go on with production. (source - I designed a robotic manufacturing plant for consumer electronics and bought dozens of Kuka robots)
    - mpfundstein 7y ago
      I still hate the german government for allowing that to happen
      - tekkk 7y ago
        It's no fun seeing your country's best companies being snatched up by Chinese companies, which your country's companies can't even consider buying. Same with Supercell although it went with Softbank as intermediary buyer. Oh well. At least they don't funnel their profits with tax schemes. But I guess it's hard to resist temptation of selling when they come with truckloads of money. We are all humans after all.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  > Now that we're seeing some of the downsides of globalisation, perhaps the world community could hold its nerve longer. The problem is that decades of globalization have all but wrecked domestic manufacture of many goods that China provides - not just cheap plastic toys but basically anything that requires lots of human assembly. A part of electronics manufacture could probably be picked up by Vietnam, Japan and South Korea but that's it, the world has shifted to China too much. In the long term it might be a sane option for the Western world to see Africa as more than just a dumping ground for excess food/clothing "donations" or a source for stealing fish, but that would require politicians with more long term vision than "how do I get reelected"...
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Even if limited to a 1 to 1.5 year(s) sanctions that would be far more damaging now than it was in 1989 due to fixed costs and dependencies. The most damaging aspect of the sanctions would be giving time for a competition to establish itself again while the outsourcing destination was unavailable - even if it takes the form of going to India instead of China.

lgvln 7y ago

I'm quite sure the phrase or idiom used by Xi is ”粉身碎骨“, which can be interpreted figuratively or literally. Funny how it reminds me exactly of the protesters crushed by the tanks at the Tiananmian Incident.

lebenlechzer 7y ago
Do you happen to have a source for what Xi said in Chinese?
- dirtyid 7y ago
  “任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想” You can copy and paste in Google to find transcript from Chinese sources. 粉身碎骨 is an idiom used in a variety of contexts, largely not literally, some different usage: https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 It's generic language for saying "crushed", but western audiences with limited understanding of China will naturally think of tank treads.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Are you saying it might only mean figuratively crushed? The quote from the article ("...perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder") has three separate allusions to death. Are all three of them being misinterpreted?
    - flag23147 7y ago
      Native Mandarin speaker here. All three separate allusions are a single attempt to translate the four-character Chinese idiom of 粉身碎骨, which is a figurative way of saying crushed to death. In this context, the meaning is the attempts to split China will be completely defeated and offenders subject to severe punishment.
      - sgc 7y ago

chobeat 7y ago

> pro-democracy Lol, imagine thinking Tienanmen was about democracy (as in: liberal democracy). Westeners really cannot avoid making everything about themselves. Tienanmen was an attempt to revert the capitalistic, pro-market reforms that destroyed chinese society in the previous years and to protest the growing inequalities.

dforrestwilson 7y ago
democracy noun a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives. "capitalism and democracy are ascendant in the third world" Similar: representative government elective government constitutional government popular government self-government government by the people autonomy republic commonwealth Opposite: tyranny dictatorship a state governed by a democracy. plural noun: democracies "a multiparty democracy" control of an organization or group by the majority of its members. "the intended extension of industrial democracy" Not opposed to the ideals expressed at Tiananmen if they were attempting to regain control from a narrowing elite. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/democracy https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/democracy
INGELRII 7y ago
1989 Tienanmen protests were ignited by the death of pro-reform general secretary Hu Yaobang and the perceived notion that the party had mistreated him. They were the end of the movement that started with 1986 Chinese student demonstrations demanding academic freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of the press that he associated with the West. General secretary Hu Yaobang was removed because he did not try to crush these demonstrations and demands. The 1989 demonstrations demanded continued economic reform and liberalization, but he demands escalated. Students wanted guaranteed constitutional freedoms, fight corruption, adopt a press law, and allow the establishment of privately run newspapers (as in liberal democracy)
PavlovsCat 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests Inspired by Fang and other 'people-power' movements around the world, in December 1986, student demonstrators staged protests against the slow pace of reform. The issues were wide-ranging, and included demands for economic liberalization, democracy, and rule of law. [..] As its size grew, the gathering gradually evolved into a protest, as students began to draft a list of pleas and suggestions (Seven Demands) for the government: 1. Affirm Hu Yaobang's views on democracy and freedom as correct. 2. Admit that the campaigns against spiritual pollution and bourgeois liberalization had been wrong. 3. Publish information on the income of state leaders and their family members. 4. Allow privately run newspapers and stop press censorship. 5. Increase funding for education and raise intellectuals' pay. 6. End restrictions on demonstrations in Beijing. 7. Provide objective coverage of students in official media. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy > At this grim moment, what we need most is to remain calm and united in a single purpose. We need a powerful cementing force to strengthen our resolve: That is the Goddess of Democracy. Democracy...You are the symbol of every student in the Square, of the hearts of millions of people. ...Today, here in the People’s Square, the people’s Goddess stands tall and announces to the whole world: A consciousness of democracy has awakened among the Chinese people! The new era has begun! ...The statue of the Goddess of Democracy is made of plaster, and of course cannot stand here forever. But as the symbol of the people’s hearts, she is divine and inviolate. Let those who would sully her beware: the people will not permit this! ...On the day when real democracy and freedom come to China, we must erect another Goddess of Democracy here in the Square, monumental, towering, and permanent. We have strong faith that that day will come at last. We have still another hope: Chinese people, arise! Erect the statue of the Goddess of Democracy in your millions of hearts! Long live the people! Long live freedom! Long live democracy!

beloch 7y ago

Here's a sobering fact: HK's GDP was about 14% of China's GDP in 2000. Now it's about 2.4%. This is mainly due to growth in mainland China. HK is no longer China's golden goose, which is probably why China started this mess to begin with. From their viewpoint, HK's British hybrid law system is no longer worth putting up with. There's a very realistic possibility that China is going to crush resistance in HK by any means necessary. Keeping HK's economy and productivity intact probably aren't viewed to be important, but avoiding sanctions that would impact the entire country likely is. This really is a conflict in which the threat of economic sanctions might actually save lives, provided they're believable.

flyinglizard 7y ago
It's probably worth more to Xi to bring HK in line with the mainland to serve as a sobering example for other areas under Chinese rule.
throwaway1997 7y ago
GDP != Value. HK continues to be the jurisdiction of choice for mainland companies wishing to do business with the west and vice versa because the rule of law increases people's confidence in the validity of any contracts signed. The HK property and stock market is also where a huge amount of of Chinese money is parked. Neither of these contribute to GDP but provide a lot of value to the mainland.
- starfallg 7y ago
  Can't stress this enough. The number one priority for the political and business classes is to tunnel their wealth overseas and the first port of call is usually Hong Kong. In the last decade, much of the HK stock market (and economy) is propped up by Chinese money and these outflows. Shell companies are sold in Hong Kong just because they are listed on the stock exchange - the underlying businesses are often spun-off as a part of the transaction and the resulting operation just a way to funnel money and business outside of Chinese capital controls. The property market is also full to the brim with money from the mainland. Hong Kong has a much stronger hand than most people realise, because of the fact that the Chinese elite themselves lack confidence in their own system on the mainland.

peter_retief 7y ago

The import of those words is horrific, for which there can be no excuse and no tolerance!

thiagoharry 7y ago

In Equador pacific protesters are being repressed by the government, protesters are being shoot by snipers and nobody cares. Geopolitical interests are a very crazy thing.

threeseed 7y ago
Almost like context matters. Because it's not just about Hong Kong protestors but about how China deals with thoughts and opinions that aren't of the ruling government.
tekkk 7y ago
I agree. Although this is indeed a sad state of affairs, there is a lot injustice going on the world right now that I feel are not getting the attention they deserve. I feel these news have been partly fueled by the Western propaganda machine, the counterpart of the troll factories employed by Russia etc. And I'm not the one who would often say that, it's just it seems a little bit out of proportion in the context of things. Like US is trying to pressure China for their own benefit. I don't know, I'm speculating of course but this is what it seems to me as a reasonably neutral observer. And although I'm pro-democracy and think the repression of HK citizens is wrong, I can understand the Chinese government's point of view and their cultural reasoning. I see China as the spiritual successor to Soviet Union which did the right choices for its continuation. And when Soviet Union fell apart it wasn't really a triumph of democracy that followed. Sure other Soviet Union states have been more successful but Russia itself seems to be chronically vulnerable to mafia-type people who will strong-arm themselves into power. Better than Soviet Union? I guess, but Chinese government doesn't seem interested in wanting to try out if democracy would work. I'm sure the government officials are also more concerned with their own selfish needs than just what would be the best for people. So far the only reason why I would see authoritarian government being good, is that it can act more powerfully than democratically elected government without having to fear their decisions weakening their re-election chances. Yet their privilege in being power only rests on their ability to force people to obey their orders - be it fear, bribery or mass-media brainwash. I don't think that kind of environment is sustainable and is definitely not an equilibrium state for humans to exist in. If something requires you to constantly keep distorting reality in order to keep it going, it can't be a long-term solution. And this is without taking in consideration the humanitarian problems, prevalence of corruption and the absence of critical thought.

egdod 7y ago

This is the regime that the NBA is bending over backwards (if not forwards) to satisfy.

thatguyagain 7y ago
Along with a bunch of other large american corporations.

Pigo 7y ago

What does the endgame look like here? Does anyone have a realistic prediction? I root for these people because I can just begin to imagine my city being taken over by a country that would just disappear me if I become inconvenient. But does it really have to come to a Braveheart style conclusion?

save_ferris 7y ago
Unlikely, as such an ending would probably have catastrophic consequences for Chinese trade and international relations. Tiananmen Square set Chinese diplomatic relations back well over a decade, and with their economy showing signs of a possible slowdown, they’re particularly conscious of the consequences that any militaristic response would have.
- Pigo 7y ago
  So he's most likely talking tough with a statement like this? Just seems worrisome to hear him talking about grinding up bones.
- monocasa 7y ago
  On the other side, while trying to force their way into the South China Sea, and still pretending that they own Taiwan, not being able to hold or control territory that everyone agrees is their's dramatically weakens their position on the global stage, and they can't really let the HKers win this one.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > for Chinese trade and international relations. It's a full blown military state guilty of several crimes against humanity, we have proof of muslim detention camps, sterilisation campaigns, destruction of churches, &c... doesn't look like anyone care as long as they build iphones and cpus. I doubt HK would be the last straw.
flag23147 7y ago
I predict that more likely the protests will subside over time without military intervention from the mainland. In Macau, another Chinese city under One Country Two Systems, people are generally very happy with the present political arrangement. Macau has an advanced economy with one of the highest GDP per capita in the world today. It is also a free and democratic society. Both economically and politically, China prefers HK to be like Macau at a larger scale (HK has over 10x population). The current situation seems to be necessary pains of growing up.

Merrill 7y ago

Maybe Xi had Taiwan in mind, not Hong Kong. Taiwan is very important to China.

dmm 7y ago
Because TSMC Taiwan is very important to the whole world.

duaoebg 7y ago

I don't see how these protests will be successful. I expect they will eventually lose and either fall in line or be replaced. I can't help but wonder how things would be different if the Hong Kong population was armed like Americans.

adrr 7y ago
Light arms vs a modern arms(tanks,planes,helicopters) is just suicide.
- duaoebg 7y ago
  It changes the equation enough to make it not worth attacking. Also allows you to hold out long enough to import more weaponry from sympathetic regimes. Plus drone based weapons are cheap and effective.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > Light arms vs a modern arms(tanks,planes,helicopters) is just suicide. No, that's wrong. Conflicts like the one in Afghanistan show they can be effective against a well-equipped modern army, you just need to deploy them with the right (asymmetric) tactics.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Meh, it's like saying New York could fight off the entire US army by using asymmetrical tactics. US invading Vietnam or Afghanistan isn't exactly the same: China is literally surrounding HK and has one of strongest army in the world. They could obliterate HK in a few hours. The only way I see it ending well is if somehow the military/police side with HK and China decide that it isn't worth the trouble. Even if China goes full berserk on HK I don't see the EU or US doing more than economic sanctions, and we all know this is as bad for US as it is for them.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      > They could obliterate HK in a few hours. If the population of HK was sufficiently armed and motivated, the only way the PLA could do that "in a few hours" is with nukes. But you make a good point: asymmetric tactics can be countered with indiscriminate extermination. However the diplomatic fallout of such tactics is likely unacceptable, even to the PRC.

tzm 7y ago

I recommend watching Arthur Kent's documentary (2019) of Tiananmen Square. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4iKSeijZI

danielneri 7y ago

Can anybody recommend good reading to catch up on the protests or history of Hong Kong vs. the mainland?

ohnidoertous 7y ago
I find the SCMP to have the best coverage. https://www.scmp.com/topics/hong-kong-protests https://www.scmp.com/topics/hong-kong-protests
- wbl 7y ago
  Dont read mainland propaganda.
hkmaxpro 7y ago
ABC News: Inside the city caught between a British past and a Chinese future (with pretty pictures, videos & maps) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-13/hong-kong-protests-british-history-chinese-future-interactive/11469290 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-13/hong-kong-protests-br... Vox: 9 questions about the Hong Kong protests you were too embarrassed to ask https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/22/20804294/hong-kong-protests-9-questions https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/22/20804294/hong-kong-prote... These two articles were written in late Aug/mid Sep and do not contain the most recent developments.

polotics 7y ago

Please correct title: "and bones ground to powder"

hacknat 7y ago

At the end of the day China “owns” HK according to the rest of the world, so I see little hope of anything positive happening, especially since Nationalism is on the rise in the West. People like Trump are all to happy to engage in meaningless trade wars, but have little political ideology to espouse. What serious ally does HK have?

dwohnitmok 7y ago

This feels like "we will bury you" (https://books.google.com/books?id=ETQpY-32DysC&pg=PA238&dq="we+shall+outlive+you"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rBmUU5mPIevJsQSz64LADg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q="we%20shall%20outlive%20you"&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ETQpY-32DysC&pg=PA238&dq="...) all over again. The original is, as pointed out elsewhere, 任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想. http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-10/13/c_1125099224.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-10/13/c_1125099224.ht... I offer an alternative translation below since I find the BBC's translation overly literal and cherry-picked for a punchy headline, although there are certainly overtones of violence in the original idiom chosen. I've used the wheel to emphasize that the idiom ultimately is a brutal one, but not necessarily a literal one. For anyone who tries to mess around with separatism in any part of China, the only possible outcome is that they are broken upon the wheel. Any external forces which support the fracturing of China can only be seen by the Chinese people as delusional.

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