20 ms·

Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

626 points by Fezzik 7y ago

benmarks 7y ago
Given that "[i]t will not be recognised as the official marathon world record because it was not in open competition and he used a team of rotating pacemakers," Mr. Kipchoge's attitude represents the best of sport: "Now I've done it, I am expecting more people to do it after me... This shows the positivity of sport. I want to make it a clean and interesting sport. Together when we run, we can make it a beautiful world." An amazing boundary to breach.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > he used a team of rotating pacemakers Many of whom might be considered his competitors, too
  - ABS 7y ago
    nit-picking but of all the pacers (40-ish) only 10 or so are (or were in their past) "marathoners" and none would be considered Kipchoge's competitors. If I remember correctly they all have PRs in the 02:05-02:10 range. Considering the required speed most pacers were 5000m and 1000m people
- Rapzid 7y ago
  I just formed my own officiating world record certification body called WASI; We All Saw It. WASI rejects who-evers claim to a monopoly on declaring who ran what, when, and where. WASI officially recognizes Elluid Kipchoge as the most badass marathon distance runner alive.
  - y4mi 7y ago
    he's also the 'normal' marathon world champion. He just didn't exceed his own previous record with this because it didn't qualify in this category. You wouldn't allow a rocket propelled and self driving formel1 car into the same bracket as the normal league either.... Though the difference is significantly less here His achievements are listed on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
    - wging 7y ago
      it's important to be precise: he is not the world champion. "world record holder" means something different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Athletics_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_marathon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Athletics_Champions...
    - Rapzid 7y ago
      WASI recognizes Eliud Kipchoge's 1 hour, 59 minutes, and 40 seconds time as the current world record marathon distance running time.
      - radeklew 7y ago
        It seems a shame that 99.99% of humans will never have the opportunity to break the record. If only there was a category for people who race unassisted by a large team of pacers, cyclists who feed them specially designed gel, and laser-equipped pacer cars.
        Rapzid 7y ago
        It's unfortunate that Eliud Kipchoge can afford to run first class while others can only run coach. However fueling is available at aid stations and along the route from a runners support crew in coach. Many people cannot even afford coach and will be lucky to run verified once or twice in their life. Pheidippides would likely be very jealous of coach, never mind first class. WASI does not hate the player. WASI hates the game. Also you are missing a bunch of nines because out of the 7.7bn people on earth there are probably only a a few capable of running that time; lasers or no lasers :) Seriously though, he ran the distance under his own power and nobody denies that. They are all just like *"Unfortunately it's not going to be official". Not official why?! Oh, because the IAAF doesn't recognize it; a little fact almost every news release leaves out. That sounds trivial and arbitrary. It should be called the "IAAF World Record".
  - eckza 7y ago
    I like this a LOT
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    WeWork will try to trademark this Monday morning
- philwelch 7y ago
  Besides, he already has the official world record anyway. This was an experiment to see if it was possible to shave a couple dozen seconds off the marathon time of the greatest marathon runner of all time. Doing it again in race conditions—whether it’s by Kipchoge or another runner—will be a historic milestone but there is greater confidence that it will happen now. Besides, I know you can’t control for adrenaline and elation, but the fact that he picked up 10 seconds of pace at the end—when he was running only 10 seconds shy of 2 hours for the whole marathon—and then spent a good half hour running around and celebrating after he crossed the finish line might be a hint that we haven’t even found the real limits yet.
  - Accacin 7y ago
    I'm not alone in thinking this, but it's not just his pace that makes him truly remarkable, it's his consistency. I can't remember accurate numbers, but I think it's like in ten consecutive marathons, he came first nine times. Runners are prone to injury, and if you're not feeling 100% on the race you're likely to not win or run at your best.
    - jdietrich 7y ago
      He has won all ten of his last ten marathons. He was beaten by Wilson Kipsang in the 2013 Berlin marathon, but Kipsang ran a world record time. Kipchoge is incredibly consistent in arguably the most competitive field in history. He is an extraordinary athlete in both performance and spirit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge#Competition_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge#Competition_rec...
      - rawland 7y ago
        If I remember correctly, he is unbeaten since that moment in 2013.
      - kungito 7y ago
        How is marathon running more competitive field than football or American football or basketball?
- antpls 7y ago
  For the non-initiated among us, what does it mean to "use a team of pacemakers"? Why are those pacemakers that important?
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - fdanconia21 7y ago
    It's a group of runners there to keep up the running pace, to block wind and generally add morale. Over the duration of the attempt, runners will hop in and hop out of the run to keep the running pace alongside Kipchoge as well as block wind (a non-trivial factor) over 26.2 miles. Also, it is mentally boosting to have teammates and even competitors of his run along side him as he pushes his body and mind farther than he has ever had before.
  - Someone 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Runnin...: ”Drafting behind another runner can conserve energy, although the effect is less than in cycling due to the fact that speeds are lower.” There also is a psychological effect. It is easier to keep a constant pace if there’s somebody in front of you that does it, too.
    - phkahler 7y ago
      So use an AR headset to put a virtual person in front of you keeping a constant pace?
      - tjr225 7y ago
        What possible benefit would AR provide in this situation?
        michaelt 7y ago
        phkahler thinks if the record attempt is invalid because of the team of pace runners, why not use a simulated pace runner to gain the benefit without breaking the rule? Of course, if the speed benefit of pacing is down to psychology and camaraderie rather than purely information, a simulated pacer might not offer the same benefit.
- m12k 7y ago
  Reminds me of that adage: "There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man. The true nobility is in being superior to your former self."
- PossiblyKyle 7y ago
  Back then people didn’t believe a four minute mile is possible, but after the barrier has been broken, dozens followed suit. In his eyes, his achievement is not the run, but breaking the barrier, and I appreciate him for that.
  - zimpenfish 7y ago
    > after the barrier has been broken, dozens followed suit. I read an interesting article about that explaining that this wasn't really down to any kind of barriers but more having pacers and a better track (which is coincidentally about the previous 2h marathon attempt.) https://sportsscientists.com/2014/12/2-hour-marathon-4-min-mile/ https://sportsscientists.com/2014/12/2-hour-marathon-4-min-m...
    - buzzdenver 7y ago
      That, plus having enough time for a generation of runners to blossom after WW2.
  - somberi 7y ago
    For an interesting read + obit of Roger Bannister, who first broke the 4-minute barrier: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/obituaries/roger-bannister-dead.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/obituaries/roger-banniste...
  - sopooneo 7y ago
    I often wonder in cases like that if those who followed suit were not so much emboldened as already nipping at the heels of the one who did it first. To mix metaphor with reality, there was perhaps a pack speeding toward the finish line, and one crossed it first.
    - laura2013 7y ago
      It's probably a mix of both. Surprisingly (to me), not many were able to break the sub 4min mile immediately after Bannister broke that record - Landy was the second to break the mark a month or so after but he was already working towards it. I read in the 20 year span after the record, only 300 runners were able to match the sub 4 feat.
dm3730 7y ago
Factor of 4 difference between Eliud and the average human male. Factor of 4!
- arh68 7y ago
  Citation needed ? > He ran behind a timing car driving 4:34 per mile I think most men could pull 12 minute miles (26 in a row, that is), so maybe a factor of 3?
  - yomly 7y ago
    Define "could", my intuition is that there is a vast population of men who couldn't complete a one mile run (right now with no training)
    - rimliu 7y ago
      Interesting. Your intution bascially says that vast population of man could not walk a single mile. Because factor of 3 means walking, not running.
      - comicjk 7y ago
        A 13-minute mile would be a very fast walk, or more likely a gentle jog.
      - Someone 7y ago
        Factor 3 (7 km/hour) is very fast walking for ‘normal’ people. Speed walkers can go over twice as fast, but they don’t really walk. https://www.iaaf.org/responsive/download/downloaddirect?filename=829b6e82-c23b-4072-96c2-705a3c7d2ccc.pdf&urlslug=Race%20Walking%202016%20(A%20guide%20to%20Judging%20and%20Organising https://www.iaaf.org/responsive/download/downloaddirect?file... defines it as ”Race Walking is a progression of steps so taken that the walker makes contact with the ground, so that no visible (to the human eye) loss of contact occurs. The advancing leg must be straightened (i.e. not bent at the knee) from the moment of first contact with the ground until the vertical upright position.” and also states: ”All the Judges shall act in an individual capacity and their judgements shall be based on observations made by the human eye.” Of note here is the “to the human eye” phrase. If one were to introduce electronic aids similar to those used in fencing to detect whether there always is a foot on the ground, speeds would decrease significantly.
toppy 7y ago
Here's the fantastic documentary on his previous try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSRitGNAjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSRitGNAjY It shows how big this achievement is and how precisely it was organized.
- shmageggy 7y ago
  Really great watch, thanks for the link.
nradov 7y ago
With sports performance a lot of the barriers are psychological. Even though this wasn't a real sanctioned race, Mr. Kipchoge showed it's possible for the human body so now I expect he or someone else will do it in a race within a few years.
- paganel 7y ago
  The recent Salazar scandal proves otherwise, i.e. that a lot of today’s athletics-related performances are reached based on same old drug cheating. Too bad, athletics as a competitive sport used to be an event that genuinely filled up big stadiums (like in 1993 in Stuttgart or in 1999 in Sevilla), nowadays we’re left wondering which results will be wiped out in 5 years’ time, while the recent 100-meter World Champs final only attracted 8,000 people in Doha.
  - jon-v 7y ago
    The Salazar scandal involves a case in which doping of athletes was very specifically not proven.
    - paganel 7y ago
      Giving thyroid medication to otherwise healthy athletes for sporting reasons only is still morally doping, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. The Armstrong scandal dragged on for years until actual doping was legally “found”, so to speak. All this does is to scare away both the public and potential new and not-cheating athletes while endangering the health of the cheating athletes who actually go down this route.
  - nradov 7y ago
    While Kipchoge is sponsored by Nike, he was never part of Salazar's Nike Oregon Project and has never failed a doping test. Doha is a rather terrible site for an athletics meet. Plus Qatar is under a travel ban from Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries. So the low attendance attendence doesn't necessarily mean much.
mkl 7y ago
While an amazing achievement, this seems quite artificial. A team of human pacemakers and following a car going at just the right speed. Non paywalled link with photo of laser-guiding pace-car: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/12/sport/eliud-kipchoge-marathon-vienna-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/12/sport/eliud-kipchoge-mara... I can't find anything about anyone doing it on a treadmill before this, though. Maybe that's harder for some reason? Eliud Kipchoge's world record is 2:01:39, which was 1:18 better than the record before (just 4 years earlier), so it seems pretty likely that <2 hours will happen in competition too, soon.
- crispyporkbites 7y ago
  Would a treadmill be safe at that pace? 13mph is extremely fast especially over a sustained period of time.
  - mkl 7y ago
    I don't know how safe it is, but people have done times in that general speed range, e.g. Eric Blake's 2:21:40: https://www.recordholders.org/en/list/treadmill.html https://www.recordholders.org/en/list/treadmill.html
    - DrOctagon 7y ago
      2:21 is not even in the same ballpark as <2:00. 2:21 is a very respectable time, but not even international/national standard. It's a chasm.
      - mkl 7y ago
        When you're talking about treadmill speed and the mechanics of that (which we are), it's definitely in the same ballpark. In terms of running, no.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
bandrami 7y ago
I can't sprint that fast nowadays. When I was in the Marines 20 years ago, my 3-mile pace was slower than that, and I still had a class "A" run time. This is amazing.
- loeg 7y ago
  He's literally the fastest distance runner in the world. It's not surprising you were slower than him. (I am too!)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jazoom 7y ago
    Likely the fastest human distance runner that has ever lived on this earth.
  - JshWright 7y ago
    It's still amazing to point out that the pace he runs over 26 miles is a pace that most people wouldn't be able to maintain for one lap around the track at their local high school.
- Merrill 7y ago
  In the Marines you may not have been 5' 6" and 126 pounds with a BMI of 20.3. Kipchoge and his pacers have a similar physique. https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2019/10/12/09/2019-10-12T060016Z-1102317129-RC1CCDB87D90-RTRMADP-3-ATHLETICS-KIPCHOGE.JPG https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/imag...
- ralfd 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRYtn0j5ccA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRYtn0j5ccA
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  It’s a whole different thing to try and picture it than see it! I ran a 1/2 marathon where a highly ranked runner was competing in the full. He passed me at mile 11 of the 1/2, so about 23 of the full. His pace for 26 miles was absolutely faster than I can run for one, maybe two blocks. Just giant effortless strides, with a damn smile on his face. Iirc, his marathon time was 2:12.
hestefisk 7y ago
For the non-imperial unit folks amongst HN, he ran his last km in pace 2m40s. That’s very fast after 41km.
- surfsvammel 7y ago
  That’s basically the speed of the 10k WR.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  *metric
mcintyre1994 7y ago
His pace was an incredibly consistent 2:50/km which to someone who casually runs with a workout tracker and runs far less distance than a marathon is absurd. I know his official race time is barely slower and this was about shaving a few seconds per km off that, but that pace is just insane.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  Here is a short (45s) video showing side by side comparison of 4-hour, 3-hour and 2-hour pace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTlmxYwiqw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTlmxYwiqw4
  - todd8 7y ago
    Austin has a nice and popular trail where many runners train along town lake so back when I was jogging, I would occasionally gets passed by a really great runner (like our local Gilbert Tuhabonye[1]). It's really awe inspiring to be right there--like the difference between only watching Andy Roddick serve at 150+ mph and what I imagine its like trying to return it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tuhabonye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tuhabonye
surfsvammel 7y ago
What makes this even more perfect is that Kipchoge seems like such a great guy. Been waiting for this. Marathons have always been my favourite distance. This got me inspired. Will go out and test my old and broken knees tonight!
tonystubblebine 7y ago
The LetsRun thread on this is pretty great, starting with a heated debate about his shoes. Were they too springy? https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9640871 https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9640871
- segmondy 7y ago
  Wow, that was not heated but toxic. I had to nope out of that after reading the first 2 pages.
  - bagacrap 7y ago
    Not toxic, just informed. When people follow a sport closely ("passionately") they're more likely to be offended by and call out bullshit. The shoes provide a significant mechanical advantage that most consider unfair. Others claim they're just shoes, but then you might as well claim that rollerblades are shoes. This comes on the heels of US anti doping handing a 4 year ban to the coach of Nike's elite running team. People who follow that side of the sport have little faith that athletics (or cycling, or any other sport) is any cleaner now than in past decades, which is to say, every successful endurance athlete is on some kind of gear.
    - majani 7y ago
      All top level athletes are on gear. Modern sports live off of constant feats of wonder and congested schedules. Neither of which are sustainable without performance enhancement. However when all of them are on, you could still say that the winner/record breaker did it fair and square.
    - himaraya 7y ago
      I'm no fan of Nike, but if you call rollerblades shoes, you might as well call F1 cars airplanes.
    - Aperocky 7y ago
      Informed? Did you see the guy with a full on explanation on how basic physics work got shat on by people who claim the shoe 'rebound 2 or 3 times higher than other shoes'. You literally can't communicate with toxic people like that.
jobigoud 7y ago
Interesting image showing the reversed-V formation of the pace maker runners, tested in a wind tunnel. (inverse of what birds do). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGqIhcSXUAca387?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGqIhcSXUAca387?format=jpg&name=... From https://twitter.com/BertBlocken/status/1182907965306748929 https://twitter.com/BertBlocken/status/1182907965306748929
- JshWright 7y ago
  Birds are optimizing for max efficiency gains across the flock, as opposed to the pace runners, who are optimizing for a single member of the group
moonbug 7y ago
again, not a barrier.
DevX101 7y ago
At this pace he would beat lots of amateurs ON A BIKE!
- 333c 7y ago
  This is one of the points I think most about. I've run a marathon and I bike for fun, but even when I bike my pace is slower than the pace of this marathon.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  Maybe a tourist cruising down the beach path would go slower. But this guy went 13.1 mph which, on a bike, is actually a bit less cardiac output than a 3mph walk.
  - Noumenon72 7y ago
    I biked to work on a dirt bike for many years and never hit this speed. Later I learned you are supposed to use an easy gear and pedal at a cadence of 60-90 rpm, instead of a hard gear and pushing hard with each stroke, and hit it easily.
js2 7y ago
Link to full video in case you didn’t watch it live (in which case, what’s wrong with you?): https://youtu.be/k-XgKRJUEgQ https://youtu.be/k-XgKRJUEgQ This is an extraordinary achievement. It was just last September that Kipchoge set the W.R. time of 2:01:39[1]. It’s only a matter of time (no pun intended) till sub-2 is broken in competition. Probably at Berlin. Just knowing it’s possible is a huge barrier to break through. I’ve run over two dozen marathons and it took me more than a decade of running (I started running in my 30s) before I was able to qualify for Boston. But once I did so, I was able to easily do so many times thereafter. Much of that was finally getting into proper physical conditioning, but knowing something is possible cannot be discounted. (My next goal is sub-3.) Kipchoge’s next goal is surely a second Olympic marathon gold at Tokyo 2020. At that point he’ll be 35. He’ll have a few more years of prime marathon running after that at best, so I’m not sure he can run a sub-2 in competition but only he knows how much is in him. He’s the most accomplished marathoner of our time, but still, in 2013 the W.R. was lowered at Berlin by Kipsang. We’ll see. 1. https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a23279362/eliud-kipchoge-marathon-world-record/ https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a23279362/eliud-kipchoge-m...
- yodsanklai 7y ago
  > but knowing something is possible cannot be discounted This applies to other areas of life. On a few occasions, I didn't try things because I thought it was not possible based on my background/age (e.g. applying for some position, school, or switching careers), only to realize later that people with the exact same profile managed to do it....
- vibrolax 7y ago
  Congratulations on qualifying for Boston. I found "Jack Daniel's Running Formula" an invaluable resource in learning how to obtain the best performance from your body. His V-Dot fitness estimator can predict your marathon time (with optimal training) from your 5k race performance. I also had a goal to run a 3 hour marathon, but my 5k race time was just a few seconds too slow to extrapolate a 3 hour marathon. I did hit my predicted marathon performance (3:06), so I was able to give up the 3 hour goal with no regret. I recognized that it might not be realistic to improve my leg speed and 5k times at age 40, having over 6 years of good training, coaching, and racing experience under my belt.
yk 7y ago
That is, while impressive, pretty meaningless. The thing is, that sports are defined by their rules and to the best of my understanding the long distance running rules are written to prevent teamwork. (Unlike cycling, which is explicitly a team sport.) Basically, the two hour mark is important in the specific circumstances of Olympic marathon, and was broken in a different sport. To broaden the discussion a bit, it seems reasonable to argue that the true limits of human endurance are reached running barefoot. Then we have Olympic marathon, where modern high performance shoes are used. And on the other hand of this spectrum, we have bicycles, after all it is not entirely clear why the engineering hours poured into modern running shoes should be categorically different from the engineering hours spend to construct a bike. And somewhere on this spectrum falls following an car and pacemakers, and my point is, it is a different point than Olympic marathon. This is actually not an argument against bending the rules in general, but in this specific instance, it is bending the rules to archive something that is hard because of the rules. In particular, it is just a 2% improvement over the Olympic marathon world record. The longer I write, the harder it gets to avoid the categorization Bullshit, however I just realized that in this instance I could quite easily cite Harry Frankfurt [0] and use the term in a technical sense. So, the bullshitters do not care about truth or beauty, they just care to produce something that vaguely looks like marathon, to those distracted by their TV dinner, while also being sub 2h. They succeeded, but they only succeeded in a game of their own invention. [0] H. Frankfurt, On Bullshit, Princeton University Press. 2005.
- blensor 7y ago
  How are they bending the rules if they try to prove that a human can run a marathon distance in less than two hours? I am not arguing that he has run a marathon below 2:00, but he is the first recorded human that has achieved such a feat - which is kind of a barrier many people have tried to break or at least recognized to exist - even though it has required them to remove all possible outside factors like wind and they even re-paved parts of the route to make conditions optimal, and he got pretty lucky with the weather today.
  - yk 7y ago
    So, if they wanted to prove that a human can run a sub 2 h marathon distance, then why is not the entire doping arsenal in play? Similar, one could probably improve on the record by driving behind the runner with a car with an really big fan. Neither of that was done to prove that a human can run sub 2 h. My argument is now, that would shatter the spectacle. The NYT would not report on the first fan assisted sub-two hour marathon run, so they don't do it because their ultimate goal is the NYT headline "Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier." (Which by your admission is actually misleading.
ggregoire 7y ago
That's running 42km at 21km/h… Anybody who already tried to run a sub20 5km (5km at 15km/h) knows how crazy this is.
- IAmGraydon 7y ago
  Put another way, it’s an average 4:35 mile sustained for 26 miles. It’s hard to even get my head around how a human being could accomplish this.
- cehrlich 7y ago
  Exactly, I was a middle distance runner back in high school and nowadays focus on half and full marathons. I'm far from being an elite runner, but I do alright at local events. I can barely keep Kipchoge's pace for 1km.
  - usaphp 7y ago
    It’s crazy that he runs 1km under 2:50s, and he does it 42 times straight!
- cocoggu 7y ago
  Exactly, this is crazy. I can barely hold more than 3 minutes at 20km/h.
- _the_inflator 7y ago
  17.1 per 100m. 10*42 times...
- ErikAugust 7y ago
  It's a 14 minute 5K over and over for 42K.
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  a normal recreational runner could keep up for between 400 and 800 meters. not even one mile!
  - 7y ago
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
So Kipchoge had rotating teams of pacemakers running _before_ him, throughout the race. Each team was able to outrun Kipchoge for a short amount of time, but of course Kipchoge himself had to keep the same pace throughout the race. This reminded me of an episode from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods. This is mostly from memory, but he describes an invasion of the country Ephebe where the invasion force comes from the side of a desert considered impassable, because no expeditionary force could carry enough provisions to make it through the desert. The trick is that a number of expeditions have preceded the invasion whose function was to leave caches of provisions for the actual invasion force to use. Each expedition only has to carry enough provisions to make it to a cache location and back and of course multiple expeditions can deposit provisions to the same cache location, until it is sufficiently stocked for the invading force. It's a slow and costly process, but it gets the job done and it made me wonder if there are algorithms like that, that can compute results otherwise uncomputable. I'm pretty sure there are- in fact I'm pretty sure it's something blindingly obvious that I'm missing because I'm thinking of it in terms of runners and soldiers crossing deserts... Maybe divide and conquer strategies, or dynamic programming?
- moopling 7y ago
  Another example is rockets. Most fuel in rockets is used to propell the remaining fuel up the gravity well
- dabeeeenster 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck Great example
- DevX101 7y ago
  The benefit of the support runners wasn't just to help him keep pace (he could probably do this with music). They also provide a drafting help to limit any head-on air resistance.
  - skrebbel 7y ago
    Is that significant when running?
hop 7y ago
4.6 minute miles, dang that is cooking.
anonu 7y ago
Reminds me of this post on HN from 5 years ago: what will it take to run a 2 hour marathon? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8439408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8439408 Unfortunately the linked article seems to have disappeared. I wonder if today's record was run with those special Nike shoes with the blades inside... The ones that supposedly give you a 1 percent boost or something similar... If you have shoes that give you such a boost, is it doping? Edit: thank you web Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20141010142108/http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/ http://web.archive.org/web/20141010142108/http://rw.runnersw...
- francisofascii 7y ago
  Yes. I heard he ran with a Nike prototype called alphaFly, which is probably superior to the VaporFly.
  - mlamorte219 7y ago
    I mean rebound energy is great for a force to hit the ground with less Cush under foot. Newton’s law of physics bounce a ball off pavement and then on a pillow and see what has better rebound energy
- morelisp 7y ago
  I remembered this article also, thanks for digging it up again. Its predictions were pretty spot-on: - Predicted in November, actual mid-October - Predicted in Debno, actual in Vienna, but both are very flat courses (I can't find if Debno is flatter) - "The pacemakers will form a human wall" - yes, pacemaker strategy seemed critical here. - "Mindblowing pay-day" - No clue, no articles seem to mention it. - "Kenyans who dominate world marathon lists generally do little, if any, weight training, which may represent an untapped source of improvement." - "To his normal preparations he added workouts focused on core strength" (though unclear if weights were a focus). - "5' 6" and [120lb]" - Kipchoge is 5'5" and 125lb. - "access to [technology] we can't imagine" - the shoes I guess - I don't know how big an advance these are - compared to his last attempt the pacemakers and location seem more relevant. - "early 20s" - complete miss. - "I’m saying the year is...2075" and two generations late. Interestingly, it predicts very precisely the characteristics of the run and the runner, except for time - both the runner's age, and the time until it would happen.
deleted 7y ago
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Shivetya 7y ago
Anyone have estimated of how many calories he burned during this run? I wonder how much he ate before starting and when? Are they allowed calorie dense drinks during these runs? I do not do runs, walking sure, so I am just really curious how much it takes for the human body to do this type of run
- anonu 7y ago
  Not sure about this specific situation, but the rule of thumb is you burn about 100 calories per mile... 2600 calories for a whole marathon. You'd imagine elite runners would have higher efficiency? So lower caloric consumption per mile?
- nradov 7y ago
  Kipchoge probably burned about 2500 kcal according to online calculators. Maybe slightly less in reality due to drafting off his pacers and having an exceptionally efficient running form. Runners can drink anything they want as long as it doesn't violate doping rules. The elites all have customized carbohydrate mixes.
  - tlringer 7y ago
    Probably much less. It is not just running form that makes elite runners efficient. Due to both genetics and training, their bodies use fuel more efficiently, too.
    - salty_biscuits 7y ago
      Probably not much less. Physics is physics. I'd be super sceptical of any claim about efficiency of something like running being much different from person to person (happy to see any quality research that proves my scepticism to be unfounded though). People like this are just monstrously fit compared to your average person, they still have the same thermodynamic considerations.
- js2 7y ago
  The issue isn't calories so much. Even a very lean runner like Kipchoge has sufficient fat stores to walk this distance in a fasted state. The issue is glycogen, which is necessary for maintaining aerobic performance. Glycogen is only stored in the muscles and liver and once you exhaust it, you switch to fat burning, which uses a different metabolic path and significantly slows you down. This is the infamous "hitting the wall." [4] In addition, you can only digest and metabolize a certain number of calories per time unit. This limits how many carbohydrates you can consume during the race. The idea behind carbo-loading [1] is to pack as much glycogen as possible into your muscles and liver before the race. You then top up those stores just before the race with more carbs, and then during the race you take on as many additional carbs as your body allows. The faster you run, the more quickly you use up glycogen, similar to driving a car more quickly. One thing that training does is to make you a more efficient/economic runner. [2] Your body can run faster using less fuel. I don't think we know exactly how all this works. Some of running economy comes from improved form, and indeed, Kipchoge has perfect running form. As well, your body's vascular system improves. You improve your mitochondrial volume. And so on and so forth. [3] But at the end of the day, you eventually run out of glycogen and slow down. You just hope you've picked a pace not too fast for your ability so that you cross the finish line before that happens. This is largely why ultra runners run at a significantly slower pace. Lastly, metabolic factors[5] are only one many things that ultimately limit marathon performance. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate_loading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate_loading 2. https://runscribe.com/improving-run-efficiency-what-research-tells-us/ https://runscribe.com/improving-run-efficiency-what-research... 3. https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2018/mitochondrial-adaptations-to-aerobic-training https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2018/mitochondrial... 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall 5. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/
0xFFFE 7y ago
In this documentary he had said "I think it is possible" after failing to break the 2 hours. Highly recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVPeK39lNp8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVPeK39lNp8
danschumann 7y ago
Count it! Cuz in everyone's mind, we do! We don't care about the technicalities, we care what a human was capable of doing. The crowd was a huge help in getting him there. Nike's course was sterile, this one specifically had crowds to help.
- pferde 7y ago
  Nobody denies that this is a tremendous achievement, but there are rules to world records which have to apply to everyone, if they apply at all. I'm sure even people at IAAF who decided not to accept this as an official record are happy for Eliud. But the rules are the rules. In my mind, it's not detracting from what Eliud has achieved in the slightest.
- proc0 7y ago
  He already holds the WR, that's why he set out to achieve it on any conditions.
gameswithgo 7y ago
It should be noted there are, at least 3 things here that make this quite a bit different than a normal marathon: * questionable shoes, but personally I'm fine with this, its just better shoes! * the pace car is too close providing large aerodynamic advantage * the pace makers aren't in the race from the start, might as well just let the car get even closer and dispense with the charade entirely The last two points make it kind of silly, like top speed bicycle records where you are behind a vehicle and go over 100mph. It is still fun, of course! But it isn't a story of physical achievement as much as basic engineering and clever showmanship. Other than, of course, you need a human who can run 2:03 without a car to draft to start with, which is insane.
- nradov 7y ago
  I watched the video. The pace car was too far in front to provide any real aerodynamic advantage at that speed.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  Do the pacemakers not provide an aerodynamic advantage, when they are running in a close group just before him?
- tlringer 7y ago
  The Nike shoes are legal, though controversial. Give it a few more years of further improvements to the shoe technology, and they will probably be banned and asterisks will be placed next to every record, like in swimming when technology got too good.
Moeg 7y ago
Can we please stop posting news from sites that you need an account for? I'm sure this article has been posted on several more user friendly websites.
usaphp 7y ago
Here is a list of all current best results in marathon for reference: http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mmaraok.htm http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mmaraok.htm
peter303 7y ago
I wonder how much of a factor the pace car drawing the optimal path on the street with a laser was. In races you might wobble a bit on the road and add extra steps to your run. In a pack side-pathing is inevitable. Not everyone can be the optimal path.
jacobevelyn 7y ago
For anyone curious about just how fast this pace would be for other distances: https://pace.ninja/marathon-in-1h59m40s https://pace.ninja/marathon-in-1h59m40s
u-dissolve 7y ago
What, specifically, made this attempt (and the Breaking2 attempt) not eligible for a world record? Pacemakers are allowed under IAAF criteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics#Criteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_world_record_progression#Criteria_for_record_eligibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_world_record_progress...
- adamisntdead 7y ago
  Because the pacemakers rotated, they weren't the same all of the way through.
- vmurthy 7y ago
  The article mentions “Not open conditions”. Other words, this course was chosen for the record. Also, per the linked Wiki reference “and meet other criteria that rule out artificially fast times produced on courses aided by downhill slope or tailwind.[8] The criteria include: "The start and finish points of a course, measured along a theoretical straight line between them, shall not be further apart than 50% of the race distance."[6] "The decrease in elevation between the start and finish shall not exceed an average of one in a thousand, i.e. 1m per km."[6]
  - u-dissolve 7y ago
    I don't think the course itself breaks any criteria. It was just a big loop, so any slopes or tailwind would not help the runner. "Each lap of the course featured two 4.3-kilometre (2.7-mile) out-and-back stretches... There is only 2.4 metres (7.9 feet) of incline over the entire route." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INEOS_1%3A59_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INEOS_1%3A59_Challenge
- drdrey 7y ago
  The fact that bottles were handed to him by a cyclist instead of picking them up himself is one of the issues
- tlringer 7y ago
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hyperion2010 7y ago
For those of us who have only ever run shorter distance, this is an average mile time over the whole course of about 4:33.84 minutes. The current world record for a single mile is 3:43.13, which would shave about 22 minutes off the two hours, for a hypothetical 1:38:00 minimum time if we assume perfectly linear extrapolation of human physiology given the proper training techniques (seems unlikely, given that you would need 26 pacers that could all run at world record pace or something like that). Said another way this would allow one to run about 6 additional miles in the same time if you could sustain the pace for the duration rather than the distance.
elijahparker 7y ago
This documentary of the first attempt a couple years ago gives some background: https://youtu.be/sVPeK39lNp8 https://youtu.be/sVPeK39lNp8
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
This was done with: - full on pack drafting (draft benefit of a pack is 70% in cycling, so probably at least in the 20% range at running speeds - laser-guided least distance path - all nutrition and liquids delivered by rotating cast of drafters I've also seen no details on the drug controls, which even with biological passport are weak. The liklihood this record didn't involve EPO microdosing at a minimum is very unlikely. Distance records took a massive hammering as EPO became prevalent (it could not be tested initially and still is very difficult to detect using microdosing), and the records are still falling. Such was the drop in times from EPO use that there is little chance a bunch of training techniques were invented to compensate for its effects. People are still on it using microdosing and other drugs. There was a british journalist that willingly went on EPO microdosing with biological passport to personally test if he would have been caught. Answer: nope. There has also been a cycling magazine writer that went on HGH, steroids, and EPO to test each of them out. EPO was a ludicrous advantage. But... news headline justifies everything.

626 points by Fezzik 7y ago

Given that "[i]t will not be recognised as the official marathon world record because it was not in open competition and he used a team of rotating pacemakers," Mr. Kipchoge's attitude represents the best of sport: "Now I've done it, I am expecting more people to do it after me... This shows the positivity of sport. I want to make it a clean and interesting sport. Together when we run, we can make it a beautiful world." An amazing boundary to breach.

peteretep 7y ago
> he used a team of rotating pacemakers Many of whom might be considered his competitors, too
- ABS 7y ago
  nit-picking but of all the pacers (40-ish) only 10 or so are (or were in their past) "marathoners" and none would be considered Kipchoge's competitors. If I remember correctly they all have PRs in the 02:05-02:10 range. Considering the required speed most pacers were 5000m and 1000m people
Rapzid 7y ago
I just formed my own officiating world record certification body called WASI; We All Saw It. WASI rejects who-evers claim to a monopoly on declaring who ran what, when, and where. WASI officially recognizes Elluid Kipchoge as the most badass marathon distance runner alive.
- y4mi 7y ago
  he's also the 'normal' marathon world champion. He just didn't exceed his own previous record with this because it didn't qualify in this category. You wouldn't allow a rocket propelled and self driving formel1 car into the same bracket as the normal league either.... Though the difference is significantly less here His achievements are listed on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
  - wging 7y ago
    it's important to be precise: he is not the world champion. "world record holder" means something different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Athletics_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_marathon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Athletics_Champions...
  - Rapzid 7y ago
    WASI recognizes Eliud Kipchoge's 1 hour, 59 minutes, and 40 seconds time as the current world record marathon distance running time.
    - radeklew 7y ago
      It seems a shame that 99.99% of humans will never have the opportunity to break the record. If only there was a category for people who race unassisted by a large team of pacers, cyclists who feed them specially designed gel, and laser-equipped pacer cars.
      - Rapzid 7y ago
        It's unfortunate that Eliud Kipchoge can afford to run first class while others can only run coach. However fueling is available at aid stations and along the route from a runners support crew in coach. Many people cannot even afford coach and will be lucky to run verified once or twice in their life. Pheidippides would likely be very jealous of coach, never mind first class. WASI does not hate the player. WASI hates the game. Also you are missing a bunch of nines because out of the 7.7bn people on earth there are probably only a a few capable of running that time; lasers or no lasers :) Seriously though, he ran the distance under his own power and nobody denies that. They are all just like *"Unfortunately it's not going to be official". Not official why?! Oh, because the IAAF doesn't recognize it; a little fact almost every news release leaves out. That sounds trivial and arbitrary. It should be called the "IAAF World Record".
- eckza 7y ago
  I like this a LOT
- elliekelly 7y ago
  WeWork will try to trademark this Monday morning
philwelch 7y ago
Besides, he already has the official world record anyway. This was an experiment to see if it was possible to shave a couple dozen seconds off the marathon time of the greatest marathon runner of all time. Doing it again in race conditions—whether it’s by Kipchoge or another runner—will be a historic milestone but there is greater confidence that it will happen now. Besides, I know you can’t control for adrenaline and elation, but the fact that he picked up 10 seconds of pace at the end—when he was running only 10 seconds shy of 2 hours for the whole marathon—and then spent a good half hour running around and celebrating after he crossed the finish line might be a hint that we haven’t even found the real limits yet.
- Accacin 7y ago
  I'm not alone in thinking this, but it's not just his pace that makes him truly remarkable, it's his consistency. I can't remember accurate numbers, but I think it's like in ten consecutive marathons, he came first nine times. Runners are prone to injury, and if you're not feeling 100% on the race you're likely to not win or run at your best.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    He has won all ten of his last ten marathons. He was beaten by Wilson Kipsang in the 2013 Berlin marathon, but Kipsang ran a world record time. Kipchoge is incredibly consistent in arguably the most competitive field in history. He is an extraordinary athlete in both performance and spirit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge#Competition_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge#Competition_rec...
    - rawland 7y ago
      If I remember correctly, he is unbeaten since that moment in 2013.
    - kungito 7y ago
      How is marathon running more competitive field than football or American football or basketball?
antpls 7y ago
For the non-initiated among us, what does it mean to "use a team of pacemakers"? Why are those pacemakers that important?
- deleted 7y ago
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- fdanconia21 7y ago
  It's a group of runners there to keep up the running pace, to block wind and generally add morale. Over the duration of the attempt, runners will hop in and hop out of the run to keep the running pace alongside Kipchoge as well as block wind (a non-trivial factor) over 26.2 miles. Also, it is mentally boosting to have teammates and even competitors of his run along side him as he pushes his body and mind farther than he has ever had before.
- Someone 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Running https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Runnin...: ”Drafting behind another runner can conserve energy, although the effect is less than in cycling due to the fact that speeds are lower.” There also is a psychological effect. It is easier to keep a constant pace if there’s somebody in front of you that does it, too.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    So use an AR headset to put a virtual person in front of you keeping a constant pace?
    - tjr225 7y ago
      What possible benefit would AR provide in this situation?
      - michaelt 7y ago
        phkahler thinks if the record attempt is invalid because of the team of pace runners, why not use a simulated pace runner to gain the benefit without breaking the rule? Of course, if the speed benefit of pacing is down to psychology and camaraderie rather than purely information, a simulated pacer might not offer the same benefit.
m12k 7y ago
Reminds me of that adage: "There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man. The true nobility is in being superior to your former self."
PossiblyKyle 7y ago
Back then people didn’t believe a four minute mile is possible, but after the barrier has been broken, dozens followed suit. In his eyes, his achievement is not the run, but breaking the barrier, and I appreciate him for that.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  > after the barrier has been broken, dozens followed suit. I read an interesting article about that explaining that this wasn't really down to any kind of barriers but more having pacers and a better track (which is coincidentally about the previous 2h marathon attempt.) https://sportsscientists.com/2014/12/2-hour-marathon-4-min-mile/ https://sportsscientists.com/2014/12/2-hour-marathon-4-min-m...
  - buzzdenver 7y ago
    That, plus having enough time for a generation of runners to blossom after WW2.
- somberi 7y ago
  For an interesting read + obit of Roger Bannister, who first broke the 4-minute barrier: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/obituaries/roger-bannister-dead.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/obituaries/roger-banniste...
- sopooneo 7y ago
  I often wonder in cases like that if those who followed suit were not so much emboldened as already nipping at the heels of the one who did it first. To mix metaphor with reality, there was perhaps a pack speeding toward the finish line, and one crossed it first.
  - laura2013 7y ago
    It's probably a mix of both. Surprisingly (to me), not many were able to break the sub 4min mile immediately after Bannister broke that record - Landy was the second to break the mark a month or so after but he was already working towards it. I read in the 20 year span after the record, only 300 runners were able to match the sub 4 feat.

dm3730 7y ago

Factor of 4 difference between Eliud and the average human male. Factor of 4!

arh68 7y ago
Citation needed ? > He ran behind a timing car driving 4:34 per mile I think most men could pull 12 minute miles (26 in a row, that is), so maybe a factor of 3?
- yomly 7y ago
  Define "could", my intuition is that there is a vast population of men who couldn't complete a one mile run (right now with no training)
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Interesting. Your intution bascially says that vast population of man could not walk a single mile. Because factor of 3 means walking, not running.
    - comicjk 7y ago
      A 13-minute mile would be a very fast walk, or more likely a gentle jog.
    - Someone 7y ago
      Factor 3 (7 km/hour) is very fast walking for ‘normal’ people. Speed walkers can go over twice as fast, but they don’t really walk. https://www.iaaf.org/responsive/download/downloaddirect?filename=829b6e82-c23b-4072-96c2-705a3c7d2ccc.pdf&urlslug=Race%20Walking%202016%20(A%20guide%20to%20Judging%20and%20Organising https://www.iaaf.org/responsive/download/downloaddirect?file... defines it as ”Race Walking is a progression of steps so taken that the walker makes contact with the ground, so that no visible (to the human eye) loss of contact occurs. The advancing leg must be straightened (i.e. not bent at the knee) from the moment of first contact with the ground until the vertical upright position.” and also states: ”All the Judges shall act in an individual capacity and their judgements shall be based on observations made by the human eye.” Of note here is the “to the human eye” phrase. If one were to introduce electronic aids similar to those used in fencing to detect whether there always is a foot on the ground, speeds would decrease significantly.

toppy 7y ago

Here's the fantastic documentary on his previous try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSRitGNAjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSRitGNAjY It shows how big this achievement is and how precisely it was organized.

shmageggy 7y ago
Really great watch, thanks for the link.

nradov 7y ago

With sports performance a lot of the barriers are psychological. Even though this wasn't a real sanctioned race, Mr. Kipchoge showed it's possible for the human body so now I expect he or someone else will do it in a race within a few years.

paganel 7y ago
The recent Salazar scandal proves otherwise, i.e. that a lot of today’s athletics-related performances are reached based on same old drug cheating. Too bad, athletics as a competitive sport used to be an event that genuinely filled up big stadiums (like in 1993 in Stuttgart or in 1999 in Sevilla), nowadays we’re left wondering which results will be wiped out in 5 years’ time, while the recent 100-meter World Champs final only attracted 8,000 people in Doha.
- jon-v 7y ago
  The Salazar scandal involves a case in which doping of athletes was very specifically not proven.
  - paganel 7y ago
    Giving thyroid medication to otherwise healthy athletes for sporting reasons only is still morally doping, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. The Armstrong scandal dragged on for years until actual doping was legally “found”, so to speak. All this does is to scare away both the public and potential new and not-cheating athletes while endangering the health of the cheating athletes who actually go down this route.
- nradov 7y ago
  While Kipchoge is sponsored by Nike, he was never part of Salazar's Nike Oregon Project and has never failed a doping test. Doha is a rather terrible site for an athletics meet. Plus Qatar is under a travel ban from Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries. So the low attendance attendence doesn't necessarily mean much.

mkl 7y ago

While an amazing achievement, this seems quite artificial. A team of human pacemakers and following a car going at just the right speed. Non paywalled link with photo of laser-guiding pace-car: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/12/sport/eliud-kipchoge-marathon-vienna-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/12/sport/eliud-kipchoge-mara... I can't find anything about anyone doing it on a treadmill before this, though. Maybe that's harder for some reason? Eliud Kipchoge's world record is 2:01:39, which was 1:18 better than the record before (just 4 years earlier), so it seems pretty likely that <2 hours will happen in competition too, soon.

crispyporkbites 7y ago
Would a treadmill be safe at that pace? 13mph is extremely fast especially over a sustained period of time.
- mkl 7y ago
  I don't know how safe it is, but people have done times in that general speed range, e.g. Eric Blake's 2:21:40: https://www.recordholders.org/en/list/treadmill.html https://www.recordholders.org/en/list/treadmill.html
  - DrOctagon 7y ago
    2:21 is not even in the same ballpark as <2:00. 2:21 is a very respectable time, but not even international/national standard. It's a chasm.
    - mkl 7y ago
      When you're talking about treadmill speed and the mechanics of that (which we are), it's definitely in the same ballpark. In terms of running, no.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]

bandrami 7y ago

I can't sprint that fast nowadays. When I was in the Marines 20 years ago, my 3-mile pace was slower than that, and I still had a class "A" run time. This is amazing.

loeg 7y ago
He's literally the fastest distance runner in the world. It's not surprising you were slower than him. (I am too!)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jazoom 7y ago
  Likely the fastest human distance runner that has ever lived on this earth.
- JshWright 7y ago
  It's still amazing to point out that the pace he runs over 26 miles is a pace that most people wouldn't be able to maintain for one lap around the track at their local high school.
Merrill 7y ago
In the Marines you may not have been 5' 6" and 126 pounds with a BMI of 20.3. Kipchoge and his pacers have a similar physique. https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2019/10/12/09/2019-10-12T060016Z-1102317129-RC1CCDB87D90-RTRMADP-3-ATHLETICS-KIPCHOGE.JPG https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/imag...
ralfd 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRYtn0j5ccA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRYtn0j5ccA
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
It’s a whole different thing to try and picture it than see it! I ran a 1/2 marathon where a highly ranked runner was competing in the full. He passed me at mile 11 of the 1/2, so about 23 of the full. His pace for 26 miles was absolutely faster than I can run for one, maybe two blocks. Just giant effortless strides, with a damn smile on his face. Iirc, his marathon time was 2:12.

hestefisk 7y ago

For the non-imperial unit folks amongst HN, he ran his last km in pace 2m40s. That’s very fast after 41km.

surfsvammel 7y ago
That’s basically the speed of the 10k WR.
james_s_tayler 7y ago
*metric

mcintyre1994 7y ago

His pace was an incredibly consistent 2:50/km which to someone who casually runs with a workout tracker and runs far less distance than a marathon is absurd. I know his official race time is barely slower and this was about shaving a few seconds per km off that, but that pace is just insane.

jobigoud 7y ago
Here is a short (45s) video showing side by side comparison of 4-hour, 3-hour and 2-hour pace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTlmxYwiqw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTlmxYwiqw4
- todd8 7y ago
  Austin has a nice and popular trail where many runners train along town lake so back when I was jogging, I would occasionally gets passed by a really great runner (like our local Gilbert Tuhabonye[1]). It's really awe inspiring to be right there--like the difference between only watching Andy Roddick serve at 150+ mph and what I imagine its like trying to return it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tuhabonye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tuhabonye

surfsvammel 7y ago

What makes this even more perfect is that Kipchoge seems like such a great guy. Been waiting for this. Marathons have always been my favourite distance. This got me inspired. Will go out and test my old and broken knees tonight!

tonystubblebine 7y ago

The LetsRun thread on this is pretty great, starting with a heated debate about his shoes. Were they too springy? https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9640871 https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9640871

segmondy 7y ago
Wow, that was not heated but toxic. I had to nope out of that after reading the first 2 pages.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  Not toxic, just informed. When people follow a sport closely ("passionately") they're more likely to be offended by and call out bullshit. The shoes provide a significant mechanical advantage that most consider unfair. Others claim they're just shoes, but then you might as well claim that rollerblades are shoes. This comes on the heels of US anti doping handing a 4 year ban to the coach of Nike's elite running team. People who follow that side of the sport have little faith that athletics (or cycling, or any other sport) is any cleaner now than in past decades, which is to say, every successful endurance athlete is on some kind of gear.
  - majani 7y ago
    All top level athletes are on gear. Modern sports live off of constant feats of wonder and congested schedules. Neither of which are sustainable without performance enhancement. However when all of them are on, you could still say that the winner/record breaker did it fair and square.
  - himaraya 7y ago
    I'm no fan of Nike, but if you call rollerblades shoes, you might as well call F1 cars airplanes.
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    Informed? Did you see the guy with a full on explanation on how basic physics work got shat on by people who claim the shoe 'rebound 2 or 3 times higher than other shoes'. You literally can't communicate with toxic people like that.

jobigoud 7y ago

Interesting image showing the reversed-V formation of the pace maker runners, tested in a wind tunnel. (inverse of what birds do). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGqIhcSXUAca387?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGqIhcSXUAca387?format=jpg&name=... From https://twitter.com/BertBlocken/status/1182907965306748929 https://twitter.com/BertBlocken/status/1182907965306748929

JshWright 7y ago
Birds are optimizing for max efficiency gains across the flock, as opposed to the pace runners, who are optimizing for a single member of the group

moonbug 7y ago

again, not a barrier.

DevX101 7y ago

At this pace he would beat lots of amateurs ON A BIKE!

333c 7y ago
This is one of the points I think most about. I've run a marathon and I bike for fun, but even when I bike my pace is slower than the pace of this marathon.
bagacrap 7y ago
Maybe a tourist cruising down the beach path would go slower. But this guy went 13.1 mph which, on a bike, is actually a bit less cardiac output than a 3mph walk.
- Noumenon72 7y ago
  I biked to work on a dirt bike for many years and never hit this speed. Later I learned you are supposed to use an easy gear and pedal at a cadence of 60-90 rpm, instead of a hard gear and pushing hard with each stroke, and hit it easily.

js2 7y ago

Link to full video in case you didn’t watch it live (in which case, what’s wrong with you?): https://youtu.be/k-XgKRJUEgQ https://youtu.be/k-XgKRJUEgQ This is an extraordinary achievement. It was just last September that Kipchoge set the W.R. time of 2:01:39[1]. It’s only a matter of time (no pun intended) till sub-2 is broken in competition. Probably at Berlin. Just knowing it’s possible is a huge barrier to break through. I’ve run over two dozen marathons and it took me more than a decade of running (I started running in my 30s) before I was able to qualify for Boston. But once I did so, I was able to easily do so many times thereafter. Much of that was finally getting into proper physical conditioning, but knowing something is possible cannot be discounted. (My next goal is sub-3.) Kipchoge’s next goal is surely a second Olympic marathon gold at Tokyo 2020. At that point he’ll be 35. He’ll have a few more years of prime marathon running after that at best, so I’m not sure he can run a sub-2 in competition but only he knows how much is in him. He’s the most accomplished marathoner of our time, but still, in 2013 the W.R. was lowered at Berlin by Kipsang. We’ll see. 1. https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a23279362/eliud-kipchoge-marathon-world-record/ https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a23279362/eliud-kipchoge-m...

yodsanklai 7y ago
> but knowing something is possible cannot be discounted This applies to other areas of life. On a few occasions, I didn't try things because I thought it was not possible based on my background/age (e.g. applying for some position, school, or switching careers), only to realize later that people with the exact same profile managed to do it....
vibrolax 7y ago
Congratulations on qualifying for Boston. I found "Jack Daniel's Running Formula" an invaluable resource in learning how to obtain the best performance from your body. His V-Dot fitness estimator can predict your marathon time (with optimal training) from your 5k race performance. I also had a goal to run a 3 hour marathon, but my 5k race time was just a few seconds too slow to extrapolate a 3 hour marathon. I did hit my predicted marathon performance (3:06), so I was able to give up the 3 hour goal with no regret. I recognized that it might not be realistic to improve my leg speed and 5k times at age 40, having over 6 years of good training, coaching, and racing experience under my belt.

yk 7y ago

That is, while impressive, pretty meaningless. The thing is, that sports are defined by their rules and to the best of my understanding the long distance running rules are written to prevent teamwork. (Unlike cycling, which is explicitly a team sport.) Basically, the two hour mark is important in the specific circumstances of Olympic marathon, and was broken in a different sport. To broaden the discussion a bit, it seems reasonable to argue that the true limits of human endurance are reached running barefoot. Then we have Olympic marathon, where modern high performance shoes are used. And on the other hand of this spectrum, we have bicycles, after all it is not entirely clear why the engineering hours poured into modern running shoes should be categorically different from the engineering hours spend to construct a bike. And somewhere on this spectrum falls following an car and pacemakers, and my point is, it is a different point than Olympic marathon. This is actually not an argument against bending the rules in general, but in this specific instance, it is bending the rules to archive something that is hard because of the rules. In particular, it is just a 2% improvement over the Olympic marathon world record. The longer I write, the harder it gets to avoid the categorization Bullshit, however I just realized that in this instance I could quite easily cite Harry Frankfurt [0] and use the term in a technical sense. So, the bullshitters do not care about truth or beauty, they just care to produce something that vaguely looks like marathon, to those distracted by their TV dinner, while also being sub 2h. They succeeded, but they only succeeded in a game of their own invention. [0] H. Frankfurt, On Bullshit, Princeton University Press. 2005.

blensor 7y ago
How are they bending the rules if they try to prove that a human can run a marathon distance in less than two hours? I am not arguing that he has run a marathon below 2:00, but he is the first recorded human that has achieved such a feat - which is kind of a barrier many people have tried to break or at least recognized to exist - even though it has required them to remove all possible outside factors like wind and they even re-paved parts of the route to make conditions optimal, and he got pretty lucky with the weather today.
- yk 7y ago
  So, if they wanted to prove that a human can run a sub 2 h marathon distance, then why is not the entire doping arsenal in play? Similar, one could probably improve on the record by driving behind the runner with a car with an really big fan. Neither of that was done to prove that a human can run sub 2 h. My argument is now, that would shatter the spectacle. The NYT would not report on the first fan assisted sub-two hour marathon run, so they don't do it because their ultimate goal is the NYT headline "Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier." (Which by your admission is actually misleading.

ggregoire 7y ago

That's running 42km at 21km/h… Anybody who already tried to run a sub20 5km (5km at 15km/h) knows how crazy this is.

IAmGraydon 7y ago
Put another way, it’s an average 4:35 mile sustained for 26 miles. It’s hard to even get my head around how a human being could accomplish this.
cehrlich 7y ago
Exactly, I was a middle distance runner back in high school and nowadays focus on half and full marathons. I'm far from being an elite runner, but I do alright at local events. I can barely keep Kipchoge's pace for 1km.
- usaphp 7y ago
  It’s crazy that he runs 1km under 2:50s, and he does it 42 times straight!
cocoggu 7y ago
Exactly, this is crazy. I can barely hold more than 3 minutes at 20km/h.
_the_inflator 7y ago
17.1 per 100m. 10*42 times...
ErikAugust 7y ago
It's a 14 minute 5K over and over for 42K.
gameswithgo 7y ago
a normal recreational runner could keep up for between 400 and 800 meters. not even one mile!
- 7y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

So Kipchoge had rotating teams of pacemakers running _before_ him, throughout the race. Each team was able to outrun Kipchoge for a short amount of time, but of course Kipchoge himself had to keep the same pace throughout the race. This reminded me of an episode from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods. This is mostly from memory, but he describes an invasion of the country Ephebe where the invasion force comes from the side of a desert considered impassable, because no expeditionary force could carry enough provisions to make it through the desert. The trick is that a number of expeditions have preceded the invasion whose function was to leave caches of provisions for the actual invasion force to use. Each expedition only has to carry enough provisions to make it to a cache location and back and of course multiple expeditions can deposit provisions to the same cache location, until it is sufficiently stocked for the invading force. It's a slow and costly process, but it gets the job done and it made me wonder if there are algorithms like that, that can compute results otherwise uncomputable. I'm pretty sure there are- in fact I'm pretty sure it's something blindingly obvious that I'm missing because I'm thinking of it in terms of runners and soldiers crossing deserts... Maybe divide and conquer strategies, or dynamic programming?

moopling 7y ago
Another example is rockets. Most fuel in rockets is used to propell the remaining fuel up the gravity well
dabeeeenster 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck Great example
DevX101 7y ago
The benefit of the support runners wasn't just to help him keep pace (he could probably do this with music). They also provide a drafting help to limit any head-on air resistance.
- skrebbel 7y ago
  Is that significant when running?

hop 7y ago

4.6 minute miles, dang that is cooking.

anonu 7y ago

Reminds me of this post on HN from 5 years ago: what will it take to run a 2 hour marathon? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8439408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8439408 Unfortunately the linked article seems to have disappeared. I wonder if today's record was run with those special Nike shoes with the blades inside... The ones that supposedly give you a 1 percent boost or something similar... If you have shoes that give you such a boost, is it doping? Edit: thank you web Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20141010142108/http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/ http://web.archive.org/web/20141010142108/http://rw.runnersw...

francisofascii 7y ago
Yes. I heard he ran with a Nike prototype called alphaFly, which is probably superior to the VaporFly.
- mlamorte219 7y ago
  I mean rebound energy is great for a force to hit the ground with less Cush under foot. Newton’s law of physics bounce a ball off pavement and then on a pillow and see what has better rebound energy
morelisp 7y ago
I remembered this article also, thanks for digging it up again. Its predictions were pretty spot-on: - Predicted in November, actual mid-October - Predicted in Debno, actual in Vienna, but both are very flat courses (I can't find if Debno is flatter) - "The pacemakers will form a human wall" - yes, pacemaker strategy seemed critical here. - "Mindblowing pay-day" - No clue, no articles seem to mention it. - "Kenyans who dominate world marathon lists generally do little, if any, weight training, which may represent an untapped source of improvement." - "To his normal preparations he added workouts focused on core strength" (though unclear if weights were a focus). - "5' 6" and [120lb]" - Kipchoge is 5'5" and 125lb. - "access to [technology] we can't imagine" - the shoes I guess - I don't know how big an advance these are - compared to his last attempt the pacemakers and location seem more relevant. - "early 20s" - complete miss. - "I’m saying the year is...2075" and two generations late. Interestingly, it predicts very precisely the characteristics of the run and the runner, except for time - both the runner's age, and the time until it would happen.

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Shivetya 7y ago

Anyone have estimated of how many calories he burned during this run? I wonder how much he ate before starting and when? Are they allowed calorie dense drinks during these runs? I do not do runs, walking sure, so I am just really curious how much it takes for the human body to do this type of run

anonu 7y ago
Not sure about this specific situation, but the rule of thumb is you burn about 100 calories per mile... 2600 calories for a whole marathon. You'd imagine elite runners would have higher efficiency? So lower caloric consumption per mile?
nradov 7y ago
Kipchoge probably burned about 2500 kcal according to online calculators. Maybe slightly less in reality due to drafting off his pacers and having an exceptionally efficient running form. Runners can drink anything they want as long as it doesn't violate doping rules. The elites all have customized carbohydrate mixes.
- tlringer 7y ago
  Probably much less. It is not just running form that makes elite runners efficient. Due to both genetics and training, their bodies use fuel more efficiently, too.
  - salty_biscuits 7y ago
    Probably not much less. Physics is physics. I'd be super sceptical of any claim about efficiency of something like running being much different from person to person (happy to see any quality research that proves my scepticism to be unfounded though). People like this are just monstrously fit compared to your average person, they still have the same thermodynamic considerations.
js2 7y ago
The issue isn't calories so much. Even a very lean runner like Kipchoge has sufficient fat stores to walk this distance in a fasted state. The issue is glycogen, which is necessary for maintaining aerobic performance. Glycogen is only stored in the muscles and liver and once you exhaust it, you switch to fat burning, which uses a different metabolic path and significantly slows you down. This is the infamous "hitting the wall." [4] In addition, you can only digest and metabolize a certain number of calories per time unit. This limits how many carbohydrates you can consume during the race. The idea behind carbo-loading [1] is to pack as much glycogen as possible into your muscles and liver before the race. You then top up those stores just before the race with more carbs, and then during the race you take on as many additional carbs as your body allows. The faster you run, the more quickly you use up glycogen, similar to driving a car more quickly. One thing that training does is to make you a more efficient/economic runner. [2] Your body can run faster using less fuel. I don't think we know exactly how all this works. Some of running economy comes from improved form, and indeed, Kipchoge has perfect running form. As well, your body's vascular system improves. You improve your mitochondrial volume. And so on and so forth. [3] But at the end of the day, you eventually run out of glycogen and slow down. You just hope you've picked a pace not too fast for your ability so that you cross the finish line before that happens. This is largely why ultra runners run at a significantly slower pace. Lastly, metabolic factors[5] are only one many things that ultimately limit marathon performance. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate_loading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate_loading 2. https://runscribe.com/improving-run-efficiency-what-research-tells-us/ https://runscribe.com/improving-run-efficiency-what-research... 3. https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2018/mitochondrial-adaptations-to-aerobic-training https://www.issaonline.com/blog/index.cfm/2018/mitochondrial... 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall 5. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/

0xFFFE 7y ago

In this documentary he had said "I think it is possible" after failing to break the 2 hours. Highly recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVPeK39lNp8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVPeK39lNp8

danschumann 7y ago

Count it! Cuz in everyone's mind, we do! We don't care about the technicalities, we care what a human was capable of doing. The crowd was a huge help in getting him there. Nike's course was sterile, this one specifically had crowds to help.

pferde 7y ago
Nobody denies that this is a tremendous achievement, but there are rules to world records which have to apply to everyone, if they apply at all. I'm sure even people at IAAF who decided not to accept this as an official record are happy for Eliud. But the rules are the rules. In my mind, it's not detracting from what Eliud has achieved in the slightest.
proc0 7y ago
He already holds the WR, that's why he set out to achieve it on any conditions.

gameswithgo 7y ago

It should be noted there are, at least 3 things here that make this quite a bit different than a normal marathon: * questionable shoes, but personally I'm fine with this, its just better shoes! * the pace car is too close providing large aerodynamic advantage * the pace makers aren't in the race from the start, might as well just let the car get even closer and dispense with the charade entirely The last two points make it kind of silly, like top speed bicycle records where you are behind a vehicle and go over 100mph. It is still fun, of course! But it isn't a story of physical achievement as much as basic engineering and clever showmanship. Other than, of course, you need a human who can run 2:03 without a car to draft to start with, which is insane.

nradov 7y ago
I watched the video. The pace car was too far in front to provide any real aerodynamic advantage at that speed.
lazyjones 7y ago
Do the pacemakers not provide an aerodynamic advantage, when they are running in a close group just before him?
tlringer 7y ago
The Nike shoes are legal, though controversial. Give it a few more years of further improvements to the shoe technology, and they will probably be banned and asterisks will be placed next to every record, like in swimming when technology got too good.

Moeg 7y ago

Can we please stop posting news from sites that you need an account for? I'm sure this article has been posted on several more user friendly websites.

usaphp 7y ago

Here is a list of all current best results in marathon for reference: http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mmaraok.htm http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mmaraok.htm

peter303 7y ago

I wonder how much of a factor the pace car drawing the optimal path on the street with a laser was. In races you might wobble a bit on the road and add extra steps to your run. In a pack side-pathing is inevitable. Not everyone can be the optimal path.

jacobevelyn 7y ago

For anyone curious about just how fast this pace would be for other distances: https://pace.ninja/marathon-in-1h59m40s https://pace.ninja/marathon-in-1h59m40s

u-dissolve 7y ago

What, specifically, made this attempt (and the Breaking2 attempt) not eligible for a world record? Pacemakers are allowed under IAAF criteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics#Criteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_world_record_progression#Criteria_for_record_eligibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_world_record_progress...

adamisntdead 7y ago
Because the pacemakers rotated, they weren't the same all of the way through.
vmurthy 7y ago
The article mentions “Not open conditions”. Other words, this course was chosen for the record. Also, per the linked Wiki reference “and meet other criteria that rule out artificially fast times produced on courses aided by downhill slope or tailwind.[8] The criteria include: "The start and finish points of a course, measured along a theoretical straight line between them, shall not be further apart than 50% of the race distance."[6] "The decrease in elevation between the start and finish shall not exceed an average of one in a thousand, i.e. 1m per km."[6]
- u-dissolve 7y ago
  I don't think the course itself breaks any criteria. It was just a big loop, so any slopes or tailwind would not help the runner. "Each lap of the course featured two 4.3-kilometre (2.7-mile) out-and-back stretches... There is only 2.4 metres (7.9 feet) of incline over the entire route." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INEOS_1%3A59_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INEOS_1%3A59_Challenge
drdrey 7y ago
The fact that bottles were handed to him by a cyclist instead of picking them up himself is one of the issues
tlringer 7y ago

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hyperion2010 7y ago

For those of us who have only ever run shorter distance, this is an average mile time over the whole course of about 4:33.84 minutes. The current world record for a single mile is 3:43.13, which would shave about 22 minutes off the two hours, for a hypothetical 1:38:00 minimum time if we assume perfectly linear extrapolation of human physiology given the proper training techniques (seems unlikely, given that you would need 26 pacers that could all run at world record pace or something like that). Said another way this would allow one to run about 6 additional miles in the same time if you could sustain the pace for the duration rather than the distance.

elijahparker 7y ago

This documentary of the first attempt a couple years ago gives some background: https://youtu.be/sVPeK39lNp8 https://youtu.be/sVPeK39lNp8

AtlasBarfed 7y ago

This was done with: - full on pack drafting (draft benefit of a pack is 70% in cycling, so probably at least in the 20% range at running speeds - laser-guided least distance path - all nutrition and liquids delivered by rotating cast of drafters I've also seen no details on the drug controls, which even with biological passport are weak. The liklihood this record didn't involve EPO microdosing at a minimum is very unlikely. Distance records took a massive hammering as EPO became prevalent (it could not be tested initially and still is very difficult to detect using microdosing), and the records are still falling. Such was the drop in times from EPO use that there is little chance a bunch of training techniques were invented to compensate for its effects. People are still on it using microdosing and other drugs. There was a british journalist that willingly went on EPO microdosing with biological passport to personally test if he would have been caught. Answer: nope. There has also been a cycling magazine writer that went on HGH, steroids, and EPO to test each of them out. EPO was a ludicrous advantage. But... news headline justifies everything.