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What Happens to the Body on No Sleep

636 points by prostoalex 7y ago

wcr3 7y ago
inb4 russian sleep experiment
bennylope 7y ago
My first real experience with sleep deprivation was when I was 12 1/2. My friends and I stayed up all night and sometime the next afternoon decided to go for a short hike. I made it down the street and then realized I was tired and said I was going back to the house. Next I knew I was sitting at the kitchen table with a Dr. Pepper in front of me, surrounded by my friend's parents and the rest of my buddies. Apparently I had been walking around the house talking to myself, and I still have vague recollections of being pursued by my 7th grade journalism teacher demanding that I name the world's oceans. I try not to stay awake that long anymore.
cloverich 7y ago
Obligatory "Why We Sleep" link https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5. Writing is ok, but content is great. In short, sleep impacts many more aspects of your health than most realize and is well understood in many aspects. For instance, I was surprised to learn that poor sleep the week after learning something can significantly reduce your recall of it. When slowly learning something over a few months, it's the difference between retaining it well or not at all. Overall, it motivated me to finally start taking sleep seriously -- going to sleep earlier, at consistent times, swapping out my blue tinted led's, etc. Its made a very large impact on my day to day well being, and I wish I'd started much sooner.
- getpost 7y ago
  Here's the first part of Peter Attia's three part interview with Matthew Walker (6+ hrs total listening time!). Most of the content of the book is covered; it's very motivating insofar as prioritizing sleep quality. https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ Matthew Walker's main site: https://www.humansleepscience.com/ https://www.humansleepscience.com/
  - mvansch 7y ago
    Also interesting to see him on Joe Rogan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
MisterOctober 7y ago
A lot of the stuff mentioned in this article -- microsleeps, immune weakness, irrational thoughts and behavior -- sure rings a bell from my university days when I would, either for work or school "reasons," routinely pull all-nighters. Ended up with some very bad results. Also: Schools in general in my area, including elementary, are starting waaaay earlier than they used to, and the kids aren't getting enough sleep, which leads to lethargy and bad behavior, etc etc. I oppose starting kids on the habit of academically-induced sleep deprivation early in life, but every time I complain about it to school officials, they have some clever comeback centered either on "studies" or the convenience of the parents who pay the taxes Gets me furious
- devilmoon 7y ago
  Oh boy, the university I'm attending right now has lectures starting at 8am, which is earlier than usual for my country, and ca. 36 hours of lectures per week. This means that you usually go 8am/6pm in uni multiple days a week, then you obviously have your assignments and catching up on the lectures to do, and all the random stuff that comes with living alone (laundry, grocery, cooking, cleaning, etc.) - this means that you quite literally get to the point where you either study or start skipping sleep. I complained to my faculty and the administration because it is quite full of studies that show that sleep deprivation leads to depression, lower performance, etc. And got various responses out of them: - a couple of professors told me that they don't care and if you want to succeed in university you have to sleep less than normal - some admin staff told me that the university doesn't have enough space for everyone, hence they have to start earlier in the morning to gain an additional lecture slot during the day (nevermind the fact that this slot is from 12 to 2pm and is always used for lunch break). This shit really makes me furious, if not even universities which should be run by people that rely on hard data to make their decisions can come to the conclusion that starting the day early either means fucking up the long term health of their students or having people skip lectures altogether, I don't know if anyone ever will. Sorry for any mistakes in my post, for context it's 6:30am and I'm getting ready for a lecture (riding on 5 hours of sleep for a few days in a row now)
  - dajohnson89 7y ago
o10449366 7y ago
I was born with chronic insomnia and I'm now in my early 30s. I never feel sleepy and just this past Monday I went to work having not slept the night before. I'm healthy now and I guess my body is so used to the effects of sleep deprivation that I feel no side effects (such as headaches), but I wouldn't be surprised if I die very young. If you have any questions feel free to ask them, just please don't suggest I try melatonin or marijuana.
- karanbhangui 7y ago
  Curious if you've done in-lab sleep studies and if so, what the treatment has been like?
  - o10449366 7y ago
    I've done two, but I didn't find them very helpful. They take several months to schedule, which is quite inconvenient, and they require dedicating a lot of time staying overnight in clinics with wires strapped to you. The end result is the same, too. Current medical advice is a mix of sleep hygiene and meditation strategies (some insomniacs feel extremely anxious when they can't sleep, which makes things worse) and medication. I'm currently not taking medication, but for many years it was a pretty constant cycle 6-9 months on medication, and then a few months tapering off because my body would quickly build tolerance to them. Medication was pretty critical when I was in college, but in the decade since I've graduated I think I've just come to see the cycle as unsustainable and ultimately kind of pointless which is why I haven't taken them for about a year now.
    - watsocd 7y ago
      This was my exact experience as well with the studies. We are similar in our sleep patterns.
    - hiram112 7y ago
      Just curious if the medication was a benzo or z-drug (e.g. Ambien). If so, did you take it nightly during your 6-9 month cycles? Did the tolerance reset after a few months' break? I've tried pretty much everything. Of course Melatonin and Benadryl don't work much. Klonopin and Ambien both work well, but I try not to use it more than 1x a week to avoid a tolerance.
motivic 7y ago
In case you feel sleep is a waste of time, it could actually be surprisingly productive to sleep. Once thing I noticed in grad school is that your sub-conscious is passively working on the problems you encountered even if you are not actively thinking about them. And often I would "dream" up a clever solution to a homework problem during my sleep. J.P. Serre, one of the most brilliant mathematician still living today, purportedly "does all his best work in his sleep": https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut From what I learned in the wonderful Coursera course: "Learning How to Learn", these are manifestations of the unfocused or diffused mode of the mind, and play a critical role in learning and problem solving. https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-learning-how-to-learn-19d149920dc4 https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-learning-h...
- Jill_the_Pill 7y ago
  I used to be really good at this. I would wake up with answers, first thought in the morning! But as I have gotten older, the "working on it" dreams have become disruptive and my sleep less sound when processing some problem.
  - jeffshek 7y ago
    Joshua Waitzkin has an interesting perspective on this. He will take an idea, keep it in his hold, and then make sure he lets go of the focus a few hours before bedtime. IE. Do something with family instead. Subconscious brain still works on it, but still able to sleep well. Not sure if this would be applicable.
    - CamelCaseName 7y ago
      Very interesting! In high school, I would often "retell" the day in my mind, usually right before bed. More often than not, I would wake up with the solutions to problems I struggled with. I have been trying to recreate this as an adult, except now I'm retelling the story of my day to my wife and vice versa. Maybe the key is to do it earlier in the evening, and then disconnect for a few hours? I'll give it a shot. Between lucid dreaming and solving problems overnight, sleeping was never better than in my high school years. I really do wish I could go back to that.
davchana 7y ago
My experience with no sleep was about 10 years ago when I was working as a video editor for a photographer friend. In season, we used to pull 1 or 2 all nighters, n then sleep whole next day. Lots of coffee helped too.
theatraine 7y ago
There seems to be quite a lot of information about why <7 hours sleep is bad for you, but I'm more interested in why sleep >=8 hours is associated with increased mortality. See for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200 (an interesting study in itself). I read "Why We Sleep" but unfortunately it didn't answer this question. The association could be correlational but it's been replicated too many times for me to believe that there's not something more fundamental. Perhaps there's a hormetic effect that's blunted by too much sleep similar to how HGH is bad for longevity?
- artifaxx 7y ago
  Correlation vs causation leaves a lot open, chronically sick with a number of illnesses people may sleep more. Their mortality risk is also higher. I'd wish we could see controlled studies that randomly assign people to different sleep durations. You also have to control for gene mutations that affect sleep requirements https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-sleep-less/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-...
  - theatraine 7y ago
    It's certainly possible that the relationship is not causal and can be explained by correlations with depression, unemployment, sleep apnea, etc. However I'm not aware of any study that definitively proves this. It would be great to see a study similar to what you propose. In general I'm fascinated how too much of a good thing leads to increased mortality and small amounts of a bad thing leading to increased longevity via hormesis and would love to see if the same extends to sleep. Some examples of hormetic longevity influencers: caloric restriction, alcohol consumption, exercise. Even DNP a straight up poison has been shown to be increase lifespan in animals provided the dose is small.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  I read the original article and the abstract of your linked study. First, I'd like to see a breakdown of 8 hour vs 9+ hours instead of grouping them. Someone sleeping a healthy 8 hours and someone sleeping 12 hours are very different. There might be issues like, people who sleep 12 hours are sick, and that's WHY they sleep 12 hours and they die due to their illness. Overall I'm guessing people who sleep a lot per day aren't very active, both career wise and going out/excising (just my guess) - and people who don't have jobs and are poor, they live less than people who do have jobs and have money. Also people who are depressed sleep more. So not all sleep is equal. It's hard to approach health from a cybernetic point of view, but I think that's what's missing to make these studies less unidimensional. The key is how to make science more cybernetic. That I don't know.
Barrin92 7y ago
the article points to a lot of adverse health effects that undoubtedly exist but it also sounds a little dramatic. That sleep deprivation after 18 hours for example significantly degrades performance is something I have not experienced. The sluggishness after all-nighters I can attest to but not to the level that I'd compare it to alcohol intoxication. I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only 48 hours, which surprised me. In general, I've had to deal with lack of sleep a lot in my life, first in the military and later when co-founding a business, and while it definitely wasn't always pleasant, I'm not sure it's quite as bad as people nowadays make it out to be.
- boomboomsubban 7y ago
  >I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only 48 hours, which surprised me. I think the usual hallucinations aren't as complex as the example. More simple shapes, colors, or sounds that aren't actually there. You may have experienced them and not been bothered enough to even remember it.
ngngngng 7y ago
Pretty neat to see these symptoms understood and researched. I experienced all of them during high school when I worked at a movie theater that kept me there past 2AM and got up each morning for Seminary at 6AM. No caffeine was allowed in my parents household either. The freeway microsleep is the scariest. You suddenly become very alert and realize you don't remember the last few minutes at all.
BooneJS 7y ago
You’re supposed to play trivia on no sleep! http://www.90fmtrivia.org/ http://www.90fmtrivia.org/ School was quite empty the Monday after.
laurex 7y ago
I've had sleep issues since I was a child and I have been interested in the area of sleep for a long time. One of the biggest challenges in this is that I know lack of sleep is very unhealthy in a number of dimensions AND the more I focus on trying to sleep and how bad it is to miss sleep WHEN I'm having sleep issues, the less likely it is I'll be able to sleep.
RachelF 7y ago
The breakdown of the body and will that sleep deprivation causes is well known to those who use "enhanced interrogation techniques". https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-torture/sleep-deprivation https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-torture/s...
sysbin 7y ago
I achieved what I can only describe as pure euphoria while going without sleep for extended months in my 20s. I've actually been thinking about doing it again recently. It really should only be done if you don't need to drive and have no worry about failing deadlines at work.
- johnday 7y ago
  That's interesting, I actually used to find something similar. I have chronic fatigue syndrome (chronic = persistent, fatigue = tired, syndrome = god knows why). The upshot of this is when I am under any amount of stress I become very prone to poor / low sleep. For example I have a deadline coming up and I am writing this at 3am. During particularly bad periods I did find that hours awake from midnight to ~5am were both very productive and very happy. No idea what that's about. Fortunately I don't drive so sleep deprivation is not such a dangerous issue.
- betterbeehome 7y ago
  Cocaine would be a better choice than chronic sleep deprivation to achieve that. Just saying.
  - thecopy 7y ago
    > pure euphoria Probably MDMA would be a better choice.
K0SM0S 7y ago
I've suffered from insomnia most of my teen and adult life (I am 37). I sometimes go up to 3 days without sleep (thus 2 nights, ~60 hours total; 'record' just shy of 80 hours), then sleep for ~12 hours. I usually work almost the entire time. My "default" day seems to last 25~30 hours, give or take, which means that naturally there are more like 6 'days' per week for me. ('days' roughly defined as periods of wake time >12h between sleep times >6 hours) Sometimes, a 'night' just skips, well beyond 30 hours into the 40's or more — a no show, literally — and I simply go on for that time... But knowing this, and being a workhorse in permanent training — I made a point in my early 20's to train myself to become able to work for 12~16 hours a day if I want to, because it seemed like a skill in demand — I've largely accustomed myself to my weird body rythms. It's OK. Not that I can do a marathon in the last 20 hours, but I can function intellectually, emotionally and socially normally 'enough' that people don't notice unless I tell them — goes like: “btw, sorry if I'm a little slow, I haven't slept in 40 hours...” “WHAAAT!?... couldn't tell, but please don't die right now!” The best judge is quality of work, right? Well, on the next day after a good night's sleep, when I look back at it, I'm often amazed actually at the level of detail and attention, the elegance sometimes (think code, writing, making stuff/systems). Productivity is admittedly not great due to numerous breaks (coffee, eating helps a lot, just strolling for 10-15 minutes too), but not bad at all. 'Good' or 'deep' is more important to me than 'fast' anyway, so I probably geared for that along the years. I know all the risks of acute and chronic sleep deprivation, biological, psychological, I know. It's just surprisingly easy for me, and my body / thought just won't shut down anyway. I know I may die young — actually at any time whenever I'm beyond 40 hours awake... which may happen 10-20 times per year easily. Sometimes twice in a row (2 nights / 7 days). Nonetheless... it's proved impossible for me, for now, to just shut down. I admire people who can just go to bed and fall asleep 'on demand'. What is this sorcery?! Why can't I? I feel like I have unlocked the 'intelligence switch' quite early in my life (not 100% but well enough), and recently around 34 I unlocked the 'happiness switch' (took two decades but I basically 'solved' mental states and happiness for myself, I hope others too when I write this blog/book). I just hope the 'sleep switch' actually exists, and isn't 20 more years down the road for me. I'll say this: this condition is much harder from a social / career standpoint than from a physical one. It's easy on my body, but it's been incredibly hard and frustrating for my mind and heart to be out of sync with civilization for as long as I can remember. I mostly live in sync with NA, from Europe... (would that help a remote position? haha) I really don't know what to think of it, I just cope basically, and make the best out of it.
kvark 7y ago
I often find myself mote productive after a mildly bad night. The brain stops anxiously looking for nuts to crack, and instead can easily focus on a single problem for a long time. Isn't best for all scenarios, but definitely superior in some, e.g. implementing a large chunk of logic that was designed earlier.
- minism 7y ago
  This has been my experience as well, but I'm starting to worry that its an unhealthy habit.
- kieckerjan 7y ago
  Haha, that I recognize. Especially if I am a bit hung-over because I could not resist taking an advance on the weekend by hitting the pub on a Thursday night. May today be a productive day!
wave100 7y ago
Reading this before having to pull an all-nighter for the two exams I have tomorrow may not have been the best idea.
eyegor 7y ago
I'm sure that it must be true based on how other people act on little sleep, but for me the effects this article claims are blown way out of proportion (or just seem wrong). > longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics psychosis—incoherent rambling, disconnection from reality, prone to outbursts Does anyone else here have experience staying awake this long? In college I frequently stayed awake for 48 hours without much effect besides my reaction times falling off a cliff and a mild high toward the end. Hallucinations never kicked in until 60+ (which is a more substantial increase than it seems). My main gripe is all the effects listed in the article seem to take it as fact that less sleep = more grumpy, while in my experience the complete opposite is true (less sleep = more goofy/euphoria).
- apfsx 7y ago
  All articles on topics like this blow way everything way out of proportion. I also used to do 48 and 72 hours regularly during my college days and it really wasn't too big of a deal for just getting through a lot of work but creativity/reaction times definitely suffer.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  I stayed awake two nights in a row during college and, while I felt miserable and perhaps somewhat dilirious, I don't believe I had such disassociative effects. I could believe incoherent rambling after maybe 4 or 5 days, but that seems extreme for 2.
  - eyegor 7y ago
    4 or 5 days? I'm not convinced a healthy person could make it that long. I've asked hundreds of classmates and grad students over the years for their records and have yet to meet anyone that claimed over 72 hours. Personally my body was almost completely non functional around 65 ish hours -- stumbling and slurring words, no concept of time, incapable of focusing. The only reason I was awake long enough to reach that point is because it took hours to finally fall asleep. Honestly I'd love to hear what happens if someone could get to 72+ hours.
canucker2016 7y ago
from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/ "...Relative risk of injury by Poisson regression showed that the strongest predictor of injury was <8 hours sleep per night. The results reported that 65% of athletes who reported sleeping <8 hours of sleep per night experienced an injury over the 21 months of monitoring. It was also reported that athletes who slept on average <8 hours per night had 1.7 times greater risk of being injured than the athletes who obtained ≥8 hours of sleep per night."
deleted 7y ago
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ggm 7y ago
Microsleeps are amazingly weird. you are there and then you are .. somewhere else, and what happened inbetween is unclear. (for some value of 'there' and 'somewhere else') Anasthaesia, you at least know you're going out to lunch. Microsleeps, its random. And very dangerous (driving) The hallucinations were quite a jolt too. I've had the drug induced ones, these were qualitatively different. I don't recommend it. Sleep is good. Stick to a good sleep regime, and if you have problems sleeping seek help (note: waking up in the night and getting back to sleep is fine. waking up and not being able to get back to sleep, or not being able to get to sleep in the first place, is not fine)
mr_tristan 7y ago
Given how hard it is to track accurate nutritional data, I wonder if sleep research just as evasive to study since it is very difficult/expensive to define a “control” group. I’d have to imagine you’d have to have subjects sleep alone in a controlled environment for a while before you could observe real patterns. This, we’re left with extreme cases to observe, not really normal ones.
puranjay 7y ago
I'm an amateur musician. Somehow all my best musical ideas pop into my brain right when I'm about to fall asleep. Lots of other musicians I've spoken to say the same thing. Why is that?
- colechristensen 7y ago
  it has been known and done by many people through time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
- verma7 7y ago
  You might find the last section "Sleep spindles and intelligence" in https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/ https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/ interesting.
franciscop 7y ago
This is an amazing gem: > on the Monday after spring daylight saving time, when we lose an hour of sleep, there’s a 25 percent increase in heart attacks > Conversely, in the fall, when we gain an extra hour, there is a 21 percent reduction in heart attacks. So daylight saving kills an extra 4% people by heart attacks. Light Yagami approves. I wonder whether it's because of the sleep itself, or because when people don't sleep enough they tend to take stimulants that increase heart attack risks.
- rcpt 7y ago
  It could also be the added stress of having to get going an hour earlier and likely being late.
- deleted 7y ago
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- maxerickson 7y ago
  The article linked there (https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-releases/2014/03/29/09/16/sandhu-daylight-saving%5C https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-releases/2014/03/29/09/1... ) is a bit more nuanced. The heart attacks are shifted from the rest of the week to Monday, looking at the week it is about the same as other weeks. (also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal)
  - jlokier 7y ago
    > (also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal) That sentence is not as comforting as I think you meant it to be.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      I didn't mean it to be comforting, the other poster talked about Daylight Saving Time killing people, which is not a great way to talk about what is going on, it creates moderate pressure for cardiac events to happen earlier in the week it occurs. I mean, I guess I do find it mildly reassuring, as I know a few people directly that have survived heart attacks, had cardiac bypass and then felt much better than they had for quite some time prior to the heart attack.
rl3 7y ago
Sleep is required for proper function of the glymphatic system.[0] Insufficient sleep results in inadequate clearance of metabolic waste products from your brain via this pathway. Accumulation of said byproducts results neurological damage. In other words, get good sleep or you're literally inflicting brain damage upon yourself. Impaired glymphatic function is linked to all manner of horrible neurodegenerative conditions.[1][2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_clearance_during_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_cleara... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/ [2] https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349 https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349
6nf 7y ago
Do we still allow medical staff and ER doctors to work 20 hour days?
- amitport 7y ago
  I live in Israel. Doctors work 26 hours shifts 6-8 times a month. In practice, in many departments it's worse. When needed it will be 28-30 but without pay for the extra hours because it's illegal (doctors are expected not to leave when it people are at risk...but it is illegal to stay so they just sign off and continue working) During recovery time after long shifts, doctors may be waken by phone call (when things are urgent, or when somebody in the department is just annoying) There is some variation, between hospitals and departments. Some departments will have quiet hours that allow sleep. Others, like Gynecology don't (births generally can't wait till morning)
  - thecopy 7y ago
    Why is the system knowingly risking human life?
    - amitport 7y ago
      The short answer would be money and politics. But to be fair keep in mind that compared to the US Israel's public healthcare is very subsidized and may be better for the average person. (Israel has less variance in the level of care, US may put people at risk by limiting access to hospitals)
jcoffland 7y ago
> Push yourself longer than a few days without sleep, and the effects can be lethal. The above statement in the article links to a story on Reuters about one case of an intern who stayed up for 72 hours and died for unknown reasons. Hardly proof. This is so overblow. Many people have stayed awake for more than 72 hours and not died. In fact, there is no evidence that sleep deprivation causes death in humans. If you don't agree with that statement please falsify it with proof. I recently stayed awake for 72 hours as an experiment. It was hard. I had all of the temporary effects described in the article except for hallucination but it was all temporary. After 14 hours of sleep I was perfectly fine. That's one data point. Don't drive, operate machinery or perform surgery when sleep deprived but it's not some terrifying dangerous thing to go with out sleep for a few days.
- distant_hat 7y ago
  Actually sleep deprivation results in death and is one of the reasons it is used as a torture method. Some neurological conditions which degrade sleep significantly result in death. Among the failures observed are things like loss of thermoregulation. Guinness book of records stopped recognizing sleep deprivation records because of the dangers of going too long without sleep. Sleep deprivation has been more extensively studied in animals like mice and rats etc and invariably results in death.
  - thecopy 7y ago
    What about stimulant abusers who stay awake for > 10 days?
  - jcoffland 7y ago
    Sure there's lots of fear around sleep deprivation but where's the evidence that it causes death? By evidence I mean studies that don't involve pumping mice full of stimulants for days.
mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
As a designer I often run into creative blocks. Sleeping on them usually brings clarity. I’ve made it a point to never hand over any project until I’ve slept on it and had a chance to look it over the next day. Almost always I’ll find something that needs fixing or that could be done better!
interfixus 7y ago
Yet another anecdotal data point: I pulled my first all-nighter at age nine. That was July 1969, Armstrong on the Moon, which in Europe was a nighttime event. Stayed up for the rerun next morning and day. Tired, of course, and everything slightly unreal, mostly from all the agitation and the ghostly tv images, I think. Since then, have not infrequently skipped nights - because of night shifts of physical labor, because of coding and inability to call it a day, because of travelling, because of childbirth, because of sudden insomnia, because of new, exciting girlfriend or - rarely - because of partying. Generally, once I get a normal night of sleep, I'm fine, no residual effects that I'm aware of. 'A normal night of sleep' means 7 - 8 hours in the dark part of the year, 5 - 6 during summer. Just entered my sixties, and healthwise doing just fine. Working in a job with a higly varying time schedule and actually enjoying it, whereas regular hours Monday through Friday eventually always push me into torpor and quasi-depression. I rarely take naps, but will go to bed and fall asleep no problem at five or six in the afternoon if that's what my schedule dictates.
vsyu 7y ago
I think we often emphasize the importance of exercise and diet for healthy living which are definitely essential, but sleep should also be added to that list.
chiaro 7y ago
Another thing not mentioned, which I'd noticed recently after a couple of very poor nights, was feeling very dehydrated. Drinking a lot of water didn't seem to help, and it all went straight through. Some surface level research indicated that it could be a lack of vasopressin, so it makes me wonder if taking a small amount of desmopressin (with sufficient hydration electrolytes) would help take the unpleasant edge off the next day.
bcrosby95 7y ago
I went a period of several weeks with little sleep (2-3 hours per day). At first I was really tired. Then that started to go away and my head was numb. After that the numbness went away and I had a persistent headache. The reason why I got so little sleep initially stopped after about 10 days (sleep regression in twin babies). The rest of the time was because it became very difficult to sleep. Any noise would wake me up - wide awake. It would take me hours to fall asleep. I continued to only be able to get 2-3 hours per day. Even with over the counter sleep aids. Eventually I got some Ambien, which let me actually fall asleep for more time. That helped me get to the point where I could actually feel tired again when I needed to sleep. It was an interesting experience.
- cgriswald 7y ago
  Zolpidem was a lifesaver for me. Although I always have really strange dreams and never feel like I get “real” sleep while taking it, it helped me get back on track when my sleeping schedule would go off the rails.
deleted 7y ago
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tilolebo 7y ago
So if your application has performance issues you don't understand, just add a sleep.
brainless 7y ago
There are some comments here pointing out that some effects in the article (post 30 hours of sleep deprivation for example) seem out of proportion. If you are comparing to times when you did not sleep and "felt" you performed well, please keep in mind that your "feelings" are also affected by the same lack of sleep. You might be thinking you are driving great, but compared to how your drive when fully rested, you are probably not. But you brain does not process or acknowledge this fully since it is deprived of sleep. Your mileage with lack of sleep will surely vary, but to think you are not affected (without formal tests) will be the exact result of lack or sleep - thinking/reasoning is impaired.
sumosudo 7y ago
It could get this bad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment
surfsvammel 7y ago
If sleep is so important. Why didn’t we evolve to have our newborns and toddlers not destroy our sleep? Are parents sacrificed for the well being of the kiddos? sleep deprived and frustrated father
- Pimpus 7y ago
  Our lives no longer resemble our natural state so the premise of this question is nonsensical.
- cesnja 7y ago
  From natural selection perspective, at that point you've already passed on your genes and now your most important mission is to ensure those genes get passed along. Your own wellbeing is not important.
  - emerongi 7y ago
    Of course it is important, a newborn is not able to survive for years to come without parental support. If terrible sleep reduces the parent's survival or its ability to protect the child by a big enough percentage, I'd imagine there would be an evolutional pressure there.
- Smaug123 7y ago
  Note that humans are helpless for an incredibly long period of time (compare with horses, who can run almost as soon as they hit the ground). It looks like nature has offloaded a lot of the normal work from the child to the parents, in the case of humans; we're very much an evolutionary oddity in this regard. Interesting factoid from the fascinating Legal Systems Very Different From Ours: the Kaale (a Gypsy tribe in Finland) don't recognise the parent-child relationship at all, because reproduction is ritually unclean; the facts of reproduction cannot be admitted. Instead, a mother leaves the tribe to bear her baby, and returns with it, whereupon the baby becomes the entire kin-group's responsibility. Sounds to me like a good way to let parents have some sleep, by batching up the group's children!
- koonsolo 7y ago
xuesj 7y ago
Lao zi said "the nature law told is not the really nature law" in the famous book of Daodejing. People know very litter about sleep which is so important in human life.
bunkydoo 7y ago
Tell this to elon musk and 2/3 of silicon valley... smh
robg 7y ago
I’m surprised that the work on the glymphatic system still isn’t widely known, but pretty clear it solves the why. We sleep because the glymphatic process cleans the brain of the damage caused by waking life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/ Seems likely the process is more efficient for some people versus others, just as it’s active during waking life but much less so. Less/more clearance/cleaning is mechanistically explained by the need for less/more sleep.
hahaa 7y ago
On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, in the end it was like I was drunk(like after a bottle of wine)
- Havoc 7y ago
  >On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. Who the hell came up with that plan? Like have they met an actual human before...ever?
hahaa 7y ago
On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, felt drunk (like after a bottle of wine)
deleted 7y ago
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chewz 7y ago
It is your duty as human being to get enough sleep because if you are well rested you treat yourself better, you treat people around you better and you generally spread positive energy around. - this is how my spiritual teacher explained why getting enough sleep is first step to growth.
xhruso00 7y ago
I have a feeling that we have been genetically created to sleep so Matrix can longer work ;)
yati 7y ago
Sleep is very very important, and I've learned this the hard way. Sleeping well has been a challenge, and I am glad I'm not alone. Articles like this one and books like Why We Sleep however make me very anxious, since all they seem to do is point out how bad it is if one doesn't get enough sleep. I know that. How can I fix it? I had CBT based sleep therapy last year, and things have since improved, but not much. Then I have the occasional random doctors who tell me how sleep is actually not that important and how they used to sleep only 3h/day when they were my age. Even the cult book Why We Sleep has chapter after chapter of telling me how screwed I am because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day, with little actionable items that can help me. I get that it is super important to raise awareness about sleep, but every time I open such articles, I am invariably made anxious about my sleep, and people who know what I'm talking about know how hard it is to sleep with anxiety about your sleep. Sorry for my rant :(
- brador 7y ago
  Truth is the solution to your problems is a 2 page bullet pointed list of actionable items that work. For which you wouldn’t even pay $1 because there’s no way to verify the information before buying and once it’s out it’s out so there’s no profit in creating it. Solve it yourself or throw real money at the problem if you actually care.
  - LeonB 7y ago
    I have just such a 2 page bullet point list here: https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_staying_asleep.html https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_stayin... Also recommend Meditation, PMR (progressive muscle relaxation) and listening to binaural beats (via Spotify). And wish you well :)
    - brador 7y ago
      5 and 6 clash. 10 is wrong. Binaurals foster dependency, do not use. Add focused breathing.
      - 7y ago
bbot23 7y ago
This might be a longshot given the age of the post, but does anyone have anything to say about OVERsleeping? This is anecdodal but over the years I've internalized how important sleep is and have been able to regularly get 8+ hours of sleep. What I've noticed is that I get more "emotionally" lethargic - level-headed when something should be stressful, which is a good thing, but also very calm and collected when something should produce euphoria. If anyone has any relatable experiences or links to articles about oversleeping I'd love to read them.
- antocv 7y ago
  Oversleep leads to lazyness and sadness, or introversion and contemplatency. Or, it was just those teenage years, but when I was 16 and 18, I used to sleep 14h per day. This contemplating mood lasted throughout the day, only to disappear and be replaced by ambition and will, many creative ideas late in the evening, just before it was time to sleep again. 8-10 hours is perfect, just enough to retain the creativity and motivation for the next morning which was gathered during the evening. Sleep longer than 12h, and feel so comfortable to just contemplate things without willing to do anything else but think and feel. When I sleep less than 8h, all effects as described in article happen.
setnone 7y ago
My experience with no sleep happened as a part of 21 day Vipasana meditation retreat. So on the 15th day after constant practice we had to face what they called Determination — 3 days with no sleep, not leaving the room, doing 1hr walking meditation / 1 hr sitting meditation / 1 hr rest, all over again. As far as i remember the point was to keep all the gained mindfulness and awareness in the counciouness and do not let subcounciouness which acitivates as we fall asleep to kind of ruin the whole practice. It was an intense process guided by the teacher, with new exercises each day, basically some variations of breath counting. It was difficult mentally but not so much phisically and after just a night of sleep i felt amazingly fresh. I like to think that those 3 days of a guided practice with no sleep was the key ingridient to let the meditation become the part of my existense.
- jason_slack 7y ago
  I love Vipassana retreats. I've done a few long ones too.
jason_slack 7y ago
I don't sleep, I guess this is called "short sleeping". I have been this way my entire life. Frustrated my family growing up and still today, age 42, is hard for my family sometimes. I sleep 3-4 hours most days, but lately just 2 hours each day. It's like clockwork. I've actually been up for 30 hours already. What makes me different? Anyone have research or thoughts on this?
- kzzzznot 7y ago
  How are your general energy levels, memory, mood? I can’t provide any research or thoughts on your case I’m afraid but I expect others who may be able to would need this information.
  - jason_slack 7y ago
    My sleep has been reducing, strangely. I used to get 4.5 hours or so, then 4, then 3.5, etc. Recently I'm on 2. I feel fantastic every day. I get up without an alarm. I don't need caffeine, I work hard, I take care of the kids, cook, etc. Should mention that I eat a lot of blueberries, avocados, fish, tea, turmeric, etc. Memory is fine, I don't forget or have trouble recalling details. Usually. Sometimes I forget an API call, but don't we all? My mood is always positive/euphoric. Some days I'm a bit grumpy but its usually because I'm bogged down in tasks and trying to do a lot at one time and I really just want to put these chores aside and do something more enjoyable.
dagaci 7y ago
There is a period during sleep where the body engages in rapidly flushing the brain of cerebrospinal fluids. This action is intensely physical and disturbing, however with the exception of the most serene true-insomniacs only a tiny fraction of people will directly experience it. They say this prevents the build up of harmful toxins in the brain, and that the failure to do this over time can be a contributor to the onset of conditions like Alzheimers. While many may claim to have overcome the need for sleep, and some actually feel productive. And claim to be just as effective. No one should be in doubt that long term effects of sleep deprivation is devastating. Not only to the Brain, and the body as many studies have shown.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  Would love further reading about the brain flushing being physically felt if you were awake.
- e40 7y ago
  This action is intensely physical and disturbing Can you expand on that?
  - dagaci 7y ago
    If you are very relaxed, but persistently unable sleep. But are not alarmed about not being able to sleep anymore, and in a state of almost like not thinking. You may suddenly experience a throbbing sensation in the head/neck, a pulsing in this state. Normally this enough to trigger alarm in the conscious and fully wake you up. But after this happens many times you can become expectant of it and just let it happen a little longer because you are not immediately alarmed.
    - michannne 7y ago
      Is this the sinking, tremor feeling you get after your awake state, but before the sleep state? That weird limbo where, if your brain jolts back on from this state, it's as if you awoke from a dream - even though you only dozed off for a couple of seconds?
deleted 7y ago
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Razengan 7y ago
Idea for a startup: Sleep pods (or, perhaps more marketable, smart beds.) Create the perfect comfortable environment in an enclosure, constantly maintaining the temperature/oxygen/etc. that's optimized for the individual. Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their preferred duration. Monitor their vitals throughout sleep. Perhaps inject nutrients. Fluff: Massage, choice of music/sound effects for falling asleep and on waking up, scents/aromas, an overhead screen to show pleasing scenes, maybe to create the illusion of sleeping under the stars etc. Make it so effective that eventually the user only need to sleep once or twice every week (but of course they can always choose to sleep more often.)
- driverdan 7y ago
  > Make it so effective that eventually the user only need to sleep once or twice every week That's not how humans work.
- MichaelApproved 7y ago
  > Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their preferred duration. That alone would be a billion dollar achievement.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Liquix 7y ago
    Yeah! I've often dreamed about a pill with a tiny adjustable wheel or button that you can set to knock you out for X hours and Y minutes. The problem would be finding a non-narcotic method (modified hypnogogic headset? Slightly raise CO2/CO levels?) that works reliably. Things like doxylamine succinate, melatonin, valerian affect everyone differently, and you're opening a whole nother can of worms with the allergies/dosage/legal angle. Cool idea OP
OJFord 7y ago
> Your reaction time will begin lagging around hour 18; after a full night without sleep, it will nearly triple—which, for context, is about the same as being legally drunk. Wouldn't a reaction test be much better than breathalysing? 1. it would catch reasons (such as this) for being unfit to drive besides drunkenness 2. it would work whatever your weight / propensity for absorbing alcohol 3. it tests the actual thing we care about - reading this made me think that 'breathalyser' is an answer to an 'XY question'
- nomy99 7y ago
  Alcohol has other derogatory side effects affecting driving than just reaction time. Emotional impediment, drowsiness, propensity to recklessness, just to name a few..
- rwmj 7y ago
  Is "legally drunk" (also used in the article) some American term? What does it mean and how is it different from "illegally drunk"?
  - cgriswald 7y ago
    It means meeting the legal definition of being drunk based on blood alcohol concentration.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    I also thought that was odd, it appears in my comment due to quoting the article, not me using it.
blackflame 7y ago
Ive been up 72 hours straight before and I gotta say, no talking pumpkins. Sure cognitive ability is impaired but this article is extremely dramatic.
leroy_masochist 7y ago
> Studies have shown that just one week of sleep deprivation—less than five hours per night—dropped young male’s testosterone levels by a whopping 10 to 15 percent. For comparison, a healthy individual’s testosterone will naturally decline by 1 to 2 percent per year. In other words, as far as your hormonal system is concerned, a week of bad sleep will age you a decade. But isn't this temporary, not permanent? I was repeatedly sleep-deprived as a military officer in my 20's -- both chronically and acutely, and often beyond the parameters described in the article -- and my T levels are normal now that I'm in my late 30s.
Taylor_OD 7y ago
Does anyone else find it difficult to get consistent sleep regardless of their efforts? Since starting a more stressful job most weeks I have at least one night a week where my sleep is disturbed at some point and I find it difficult to get back to sleep.
rootusrootus 7y ago
Every time I travel 30 hours to India (three flights from where I live, with layovers) I get reminded in a big way that sleep is important. I can't sleep on planes, for whatever reason, and man does it ever screw with my body. Part of that is simple jet lag, but for a few days after traveling things are clearly malfunctioning, hormones out of whack, body temperature regulation bass-ackwards, brain fog, memory loss, etc.
andrelgomes 7y ago
Just started reading "Man and His Symbols" by Carl Jung (would recommend), and as other people posted, Jungarian beleive that dreams are more active than random passive thoughts. New ideas can come through the sub-conscious.
dubliner2077 7y ago
>Stay up for longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics psychosis—incoherent rambling, That's me if I am hungry or tired in general. So, 5 minuts enough.
gulls 7y ago
Sleep is indispensable and one should not compromise otherwise it will compromise with your body. Ontogeny and phylogeny reveal that you can't separate sleep from body developmentally. It will affect your body from single molecule to whole body well-being. In case you still want to wake up for work. I would suggest go for coffee and caffeine inside it will block the functioning of molecules like adenosine which are actually inducing sleep.
robkon1 7y ago
so body die

636 points by prostoalex 7y ago

wcr3 7y ago

inb4 russian sleep experiment

My first real experience with sleep deprivation was when I was 12 1/2. My friends and I stayed up all night and sometime the next afternoon decided to go for a short hike. I made it down the street and then realized I was tired and said I was going back to the house. Next I knew I was sitting at the kitchen table with a Dr. Pepper in front of me, surrounded by my friend's parents and the rest of my buddies. Apparently I had been walking around the house talking to myself, and I still have vague recollections of being pursued by my 7th grade journalism teacher demanding that I name the world's oceans. I try not to stay awake that long anymore.

cloverich 7y ago

Obligatory "Why We Sleep" link https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5. Writing is ok, but content is great. In short, sleep impacts many more aspects of your health than most realize and is well understood in many aspects. For instance, I was surprised to learn that poor sleep the week after learning something can significantly reduce your recall of it. When slowly learning something over a few months, it's the difference between retaining it well or not at all. Overall, it motivated me to finally start taking sleep seriously -- going to sleep earlier, at consistent times, swapping out my blue tinted led's, etc. Its made a very large impact on my day to day well being, and I wish I'd started much sooner.

getpost 7y ago
Here's the first part of Peter Attia's three part interview with Matthew Walker (6+ hrs total listening time!). Most of the content of the book is covered; it's very motivating insofar as prioritizing sleep quality. https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ Matthew Walker's main site: https://www.humansleepscience.com/ https://www.humansleepscience.com/
- mvansch 7y ago
  Also interesting to see him on Joe Rogan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig

MisterOctober 7y ago

A lot of the stuff mentioned in this article -- microsleeps, immune weakness, irrational thoughts and behavior -- sure rings a bell from my university days when I would, either for work or school "reasons," routinely pull all-nighters. Ended up with some very bad results. Also: Schools in general in my area, including elementary, are starting waaaay earlier than they used to, and the kids aren't getting enough sleep, which leads to lethargy and bad behavior, etc etc. I oppose starting kids on the habit of academically-induced sleep deprivation early in life, but every time I complain about it to school officials, they have some clever comeback centered either on "studies" or the convenience of the parents who pay the taxes Gets me furious

devilmoon 7y ago
Oh boy, the university I'm attending right now has lectures starting at 8am, which is earlier than usual for my country, and ca. 36 hours of lectures per week. This means that you usually go 8am/6pm in uni multiple days a week, then you obviously have your assignments and catching up on the lectures to do, and all the random stuff that comes with living alone (laundry, grocery, cooking, cleaning, etc.) - this means that you quite literally get to the point where you either study or start skipping sleep. I complained to my faculty and the administration because it is quite full of studies that show that sleep deprivation leads to depression, lower performance, etc. And got various responses out of them: - a couple of professors told me that they don't care and if you want to succeed in university you have to sleep less than normal - some admin staff told me that the university doesn't have enough space for everyone, hence they have to start earlier in the morning to gain an additional lecture slot during the day (nevermind the fact that this slot is from 12 to 2pm and is always used for lunch break). This shit really makes me furious, if not even universities which should be run by people that rely on hard data to make their decisions can come to the conclusion that starting the day early either means fucking up the long term health of their students or having people skip lectures altogether, I don't know if anyone ever will. Sorry for any mistakes in my post, for context it's 6:30am and I'm getting ready for a lecture (riding on 5 hours of sleep for a few days in a row now)
- dajohnson89 7y ago

o10449366 7y ago

I was born with chronic insomnia and I'm now in my early 30s. I never feel sleepy and just this past Monday I went to work having not slept the night before. I'm healthy now and I guess my body is so used to the effects of sleep deprivation that I feel no side effects (such as headaches), but I wouldn't be surprised if I die very young. If you have any questions feel free to ask them, just please don't suggest I try melatonin or marijuana.

karanbhangui 7y ago
Curious if you've done in-lab sleep studies and if so, what the treatment has been like?
- o10449366 7y ago
  I've done two, but I didn't find them very helpful. They take several months to schedule, which is quite inconvenient, and they require dedicating a lot of time staying overnight in clinics with wires strapped to you. The end result is the same, too. Current medical advice is a mix of sleep hygiene and meditation strategies (some insomniacs feel extremely anxious when they can't sleep, which makes things worse) and medication. I'm currently not taking medication, but for many years it was a pretty constant cycle 6-9 months on medication, and then a few months tapering off because my body would quickly build tolerance to them. Medication was pretty critical when I was in college, but in the decade since I've graduated I think I've just come to see the cycle as unsustainable and ultimately kind of pointless which is why I haven't taken them for about a year now.
  - watsocd 7y ago
    This was my exact experience as well with the studies. We are similar in our sleep patterns.
  - hiram112 7y ago
    Just curious if the medication was a benzo or z-drug (e.g. Ambien). If so, did you take it nightly during your 6-9 month cycles? Did the tolerance reset after a few months' break? I've tried pretty much everything. Of course Melatonin and Benadryl don't work much. Klonopin and Ambien both work well, but I try not to use it more than 1x a week to avoid a tolerance.

motivic 7y ago

In case you feel sleep is a waste of time, it could actually be surprisingly productive to sleep. Once thing I noticed in grad school is that your sub-conscious is passively working on the problems you encountered even if you are not actively thinking about them. And often I would "dream" up a clever solution to a homework problem during my sleep. J.P. Serre, one of the most brilliant mathematician still living today, purportedly "does all his best work in his sleep": https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut From what I learned in the wonderful Coursera course: "Learning How to Learn", these are manifestations of the unfocused or diffused mode of the mind, and play a critical role in learning and problem solving. https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-learning-how-to-learn-19d149920dc4 https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-learning-h...

Jill_the_Pill 7y ago
I used to be really good at this. I would wake up with answers, first thought in the morning! But as I have gotten older, the "working on it" dreams have become disruptive and my sleep less sound when processing some problem.
- jeffshek 7y ago
  Joshua Waitzkin has an interesting perspective on this. He will take an idea, keep it in his hold, and then make sure he lets go of the focus a few hours before bedtime. IE. Do something with family instead. Subconscious brain still works on it, but still able to sleep well. Not sure if this would be applicable.
  - CamelCaseName 7y ago
    Very interesting! In high school, I would often "retell" the day in my mind, usually right before bed. More often than not, I would wake up with the solutions to problems I struggled with. I have been trying to recreate this as an adult, except now I'm retelling the story of my day to my wife and vice versa. Maybe the key is to do it earlier in the evening, and then disconnect for a few hours? I'll give it a shot. Between lucid dreaming and solving problems overnight, sleeping was never better than in my high school years. I really do wish I could go back to that.

davchana 7y ago

My experience with no sleep was about 10 years ago when I was working as a video editor for a photographer friend. In season, we used to pull 1 or 2 all nighters, n then sleep whole next day. Lots of coffee helped too.

theatraine 7y ago

There seems to be quite a lot of information about why <7 hours sleep is bad for you, but I'm more interested in why sleep >=8 hours is associated with increased mortality. See for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200 (an interesting study in itself). I read "Why We Sleep" but unfortunately it didn't answer this question. The association could be correlational but it's been replicated too many times for me to believe that there's not something more fundamental. Perhaps there's a hormetic effect that's blunted by too much sleep similar to how HGH is bad for longevity?

artifaxx 7y ago
Correlation vs causation leaves a lot open, chronically sick with a number of illnesses people may sleep more. Their mortality risk is also higher. I'd wish we could see controlled studies that randomly assign people to different sleep durations. You also have to control for gene mutations that affect sleep requirements https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-sleep-less/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-...
- theatraine 7y ago
  It's certainly possible that the relationship is not causal and can be explained by correlations with depression, unemployment, sleep apnea, etc. However I'm not aware of any study that definitively proves this. It would be great to see a study similar to what you propose. In general I'm fascinated how too much of a good thing leads to increased mortality and small amounts of a bad thing leading to increased longevity via hormesis and would love to see if the same extends to sleep. Some examples of hormetic longevity influencers: caloric restriction, alcohol consumption, exercise. Even DNP a straight up poison has been shown to be increase lifespan in animals provided the dose is small.
4ntonius8lock 7y ago
I read the original article and the abstract of your linked study. First, I'd like to see a breakdown of 8 hour vs 9+ hours instead of grouping them. Someone sleeping a healthy 8 hours and someone sleeping 12 hours are very different. There might be issues like, people who sleep 12 hours are sick, and that's WHY they sleep 12 hours and they die due to their illness. Overall I'm guessing people who sleep a lot per day aren't very active, both career wise and going out/excising (just my guess) - and people who don't have jobs and are poor, they live less than people who do have jobs and have money. Also people who are depressed sleep more. So not all sleep is equal. It's hard to approach health from a cybernetic point of view, but I think that's what's missing to make these studies less unidimensional. The key is how to make science more cybernetic. That I don't know.

Barrin92 7y ago

the article points to a lot of adverse health effects that undoubtedly exist but it also sounds a little dramatic. That sleep deprivation after 18 hours for example significantly degrades performance is something I have not experienced. The sluggishness after all-nighters I can attest to but not to the level that I'd compare it to alcohol intoxication. I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only 48 hours, which surprised me. In general, I've had to deal with lack of sleep a lot in my life, first in the military and later when co-founding a business, and while it definitely wasn't always pleasant, I'm not sure it's quite as bad as people nowadays make it out to be.

boomboomsubban 7y ago
>I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only 48 hours, which surprised me. I think the usual hallucinations aren't as complex as the example. More simple shapes, colors, or sounds that aren't actually there. You may have experienced them and not been bothered enough to even remember it.

ngngngng 7y ago

Pretty neat to see these symptoms understood and researched. I experienced all of them during high school when I worked at a movie theater that kept me there past 2AM and got up each morning for Seminary at 6AM. No caffeine was allowed in my parents household either. The freeway microsleep is the scariest. You suddenly become very alert and realize you don't remember the last few minutes at all.

BooneJS 7y ago

You’re supposed to play trivia on no sleep! http://www.90fmtrivia.org/ http://www.90fmtrivia.org/ School was quite empty the Monday after.

laurex 7y ago

I've had sleep issues since I was a child and I have been interested in the area of sleep for a long time. One of the biggest challenges in this is that I know lack of sleep is very unhealthy in a number of dimensions AND the more I focus on trying to sleep and how bad it is to miss sleep WHEN I'm having sleep issues, the less likely it is I'll be able to sleep.

RachelF 7y ago

The breakdown of the body and will that sleep deprivation causes is well known to those who use "enhanced interrogation techniques". https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-torture/sleep-deprivation https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-torture/s...

sysbin 7y ago

I achieved what I can only describe as pure euphoria while going without sleep for extended months in my 20s. I've actually been thinking about doing it again recently. It really should only be done if you don't need to drive and have no worry about failing deadlines at work.

johnday 7y ago
That's interesting, I actually used to find something similar. I have chronic fatigue syndrome (chronic = persistent, fatigue = tired, syndrome = god knows why). The upshot of this is when I am under any amount of stress I become very prone to poor / low sleep. For example I have a deadline coming up and I am writing this at 3am. During particularly bad periods I did find that hours awake from midnight to ~5am were both very productive and very happy. No idea what that's about. Fortunately I don't drive so sleep deprivation is not such a dangerous issue.
betterbeehome 7y ago
Cocaine would be a better choice than chronic sleep deprivation to achieve that. Just saying.
- thecopy 7y ago
  > pure euphoria Probably MDMA would be a better choice.

K0SM0S 7y ago

I've suffered from insomnia most of my teen and adult life (I am 37). I sometimes go up to 3 days without sleep (thus 2 nights, ~60 hours total; 'record' just shy of 80 hours), then sleep for ~12 hours. I usually work almost the entire time. My "default" day seems to last 25~30 hours, give or take, which means that naturally there are more like 6 'days' per week for me. ('days' roughly defined as periods of wake time >12h between sleep times >6 hours) Sometimes, a 'night' just skips, well beyond 30 hours into the 40's or more — a no show, literally — and I simply go on for that time... But knowing this, and being a workhorse in permanent training — I made a point in my early 20's to train myself to become able to work for 12~16 hours a day if I want to, because it seemed like a skill in demand — I've largely accustomed myself to my weird body rythms. It's OK. Not that I can do a marathon in the last 20 hours, but I can function intellectually, emotionally and socially normally 'enough' that people don't notice unless I tell them — goes like: “btw, sorry if I'm a little slow, I haven't slept in 40 hours...” “WHAAAT!?... couldn't tell, but please don't die right now!” The best judge is quality of work, right? Well, on the next day after a good night's sleep, when I look back at it, I'm often amazed actually at the level of detail and attention, the elegance sometimes (think code, writing, making stuff/systems). Productivity is admittedly not great due to numerous breaks (coffee, eating helps a lot, just strolling for 10-15 minutes too), but not bad at all. 'Good' or 'deep' is more important to me than 'fast' anyway, so I probably geared for that along the years. I know all the risks of acute and chronic sleep deprivation, biological, psychological, I know. It's just surprisingly easy for me, and my body / thought just won't shut down anyway. I know I may die young — actually at any time whenever I'm beyond 40 hours awake... which may happen 10-20 times per year easily. Sometimes twice in a row (2 nights / 7 days). Nonetheless... it's proved impossible for me, for now, to just shut down. I admire people who can just go to bed and fall asleep 'on demand'. What is this sorcery?! Why can't I? I feel like I have unlocked the 'intelligence switch' quite early in my life (not 100% but well enough), and recently around 34 I unlocked the 'happiness switch' (took two decades but I basically 'solved' mental states and happiness for myself, I hope others too when I write this blog/book). I just hope the 'sleep switch' actually exists, and isn't 20 more years down the road for me. I'll say this: this condition is much harder from a social / career standpoint than from a physical one. It's easy on my body, but it's been incredibly hard and frustrating for my mind and heart to be out of sync with civilization for as long as I can remember. I mostly live in sync with NA, from Europe... (would that help a remote position? haha) I really don't know what to think of it, I just cope basically, and make the best out of it.

kvark 7y ago

I often find myself mote productive after a mildly bad night. The brain stops anxiously looking for nuts to crack, and instead can easily focus on a single problem for a long time. Isn't best for all scenarios, but definitely superior in some, e.g. implementing a large chunk of logic that was designed earlier.

minism 7y ago
This has been my experience as well, but I'm starting to worry that its an unhealthy habit.
kieckerjan 7y ago
Haha, that I recognize. Especially if I am a bit hung-over because I could not resist taking an advance on the weekend by hitting the pub on a Thursday night. May today be a productive day!

wave100 7y ago

Reading this before having to pull an all-nighter for the two exams I have tomorrow may not have been the best idea.

eyegor 7y ago

I'm sure that it must be true based on how other people act on little sleep, but for me the effects this article claims are blown way out of proportion (or just seem wrong). > longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics psychosis—incoherent rambling, disconnection from reality, prone to outbursts Does anyone else here have experience staying awake this long? In college I frequently stayed awake for 48 hours without much effect besides my reaction times falling off a cliff and a mild high toward the end. Hallucinations never kicked in until 60+ (which is a more substantial increase than it seems). My main gripe is all the effects listed in the article seem to take it as fact that less sleep = more grumpy, while in my experience the complete opposite is true (less sleep = more goofy/euphoria).

apfsx 7y ago
All articles on topics like this blow way everything way out of proportion. I also used to do 48 and 72 hours regularly during my college days and it really wasn't too big of a deal for just getting through a lot of work but creativity/reaction times definitely suffer.
ravenstine 7y ago
I stayed awake two nights in a row during college and, while I felt miserable and perhaps somewhat dilirious, I don't believe I had such disassociative effects. I could believe incoherent rambling after maybe 4 or 5 days, but that seems extreme for 2.
- eyegor 7y ago
  4 or 5 days? I'm not convinced a healthy person could make it that long. I've asked hundreds of classmates and grad students over the years for their records and have yet to meet anyone that claimed over 72 hours. Personally my body was almost completely non functional around 65 ish hours -- stumbling and slurring words, no concept of time, incapable of focusing. The only reason I was awake long enough to reach that point is because it took hours to finally fall asleep. Honestly I'd love to hear what happens if someone could get to 72+ hours.

canucker2016 7y ago

from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/ "...Relative risk of injury by Poisson regression showed that the strongest predictor of injury was <8 hours sleep per night. The results reported that 65% of athletes who reported sleeping <8 hours of sleep per night experienced an injury over the 21 months of monitoring. It was also reported that athletes who slept on average <8 hours per night had 1.7 times greater risk of being injured than the athletes who obtained ≥8 hours of sleep per night."

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ggm 7y ago

Microsleeps are amazingly weird. you are there and then you are .. somewhere else, and what happened inbetween is unclear. (for some value of 'there' and 'somewhere else') Anasthaesia, you at least know you're going out to lunch. Microsleeps, its random. And very dangerous (driving) The hallucinations were quite a jolt too. I've had the drug induced ones, these were qualitatively different. I don't recommend it. Sleep is good. Stick to a good sleep regime, and if you have problems sleeping seek help (note: waking up in the night and getting back to sleep is fine. waking up and not being able to get back to sleep, or not being able to get to sleep in the first place, is not fine)

mr_tristan 7y ago

Given how hard it is to track accurate nutritional data, I wonder if sleep research just as evasive to study since it is very difficult/expensive to define a “control” group. I’d have to imagine you’d have to have subjects sleep alone in a controlled environment for a while before you could observe real patterns. This, we’re left with extreme cases to observe, not really normal ones.

puranjay 7y ago

I'm an amateur musician. Somehow all my best musical ideas pop into my brain right when I'm about to fall asleep. Lots of other musicians I've spoken to say the same thing. Why is that?

colechristensen 7y ago
it has been known and done by many people through time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
verma7 7y ago
You might find the last section "Sleep spindles and intelligence" in https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/ https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/ interesting.

franciscop 7y ago

This is an amazing gem: > on the Monday after spring daylight saving time, when we lose an hour of sleep, there’s a 25 percent increase in heart attacks > Conversely, in the fall, when we gain an extra hour, there is a 21 percent reduction in heart attacks. So daylight saving kills an extra 4% people by heart attacks. Light Yagami approves. I wonder whether it's because of the sleep itself, or because when people don't sleep enough they tend to take stimulants that increase heart attack risks.

rcpt 7y ago
It could also be the added stress of having to get going an hour earlier and likely being late.
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maxerickson 7y ago
The article linked there (https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-releases/2014/03/29/09/16/sandhu-daylight-saving%5C https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-releases/2014/03/29/09/1... ) is a bit more nuanced. The heart attacks are shifted from the rest of the week to Monday, looking at the week it is about the same as other weeks. (also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal)
- jlokier 7y ago
  > (also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal) That sentence is not as comforting as I think you meant it to be.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    I didn't mean it to be comforting, the other poster talked about Daylight Saving Time killing people, which is not a great way to talk about what is going on, it creates moderate pressure for cardiac events to happen earlier in the week it occurs. I mean, I guess I do find it mildly reassuring, as I know a few people directly that have survived heart attacks, had cardiac bypass and then felt much better than they had for quite some time prior to the heart attack.

rl3 7y ago

Sleep is required for proper function of the glymphatic system.[0] Insufficient sleep results in inadequate clearance of metabolic waste products from your brain via this pathway. Accumulation of said byproducts results neurological damage. In other words, get good sleep or you're literally inflicting brain damage upon yourself. Impaired glymphatic function is linked to all manner of horrible neurodegenerative conditions.[1][2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_clearance_during_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_cleara... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/ [2] https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349 https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349

6nf 7y ago

Do we still allow medical staff and ER doctors to work 20 hour days?

amitport 7y ago
I live in Israel. Doctors work 26 hours shifts 6-8 times a month. In practice, in many departments it's worse. When needed it will be 28-30 but without pay for the extra hours because it's illegal (doctors are expected not to leave when it people are at risk...but it is illegal to stay so they just sign off and continue working) During recovery time after long shifts, doctors may be waken by phone call (when things are urgent, or when somebody in the department is just annoying) There is some variation, between hospitals and departments. Some departments will have quiet hours that allow sleep. Others, like Gynecology don't (births generally can't wait till morning)
- thecopy 7y ago
  Why is the system knowingly risking human life?
  - amitport 7y ago
    The short answer would be money and politics. But to be fair keep in mind that compared to the US Israel's public healthcare is very subsidized and may be better for the average person. (Israel has less variance in the level of care, US may put people at risk by limiting access to hospitals)

jcoffland 7y ago

> Push yourself longer than a few days without sleep, and the effects can be lethal. The above statement in the article links to a story on Reuters about one case of an intern who stayed up for 72 hours and died for unknown reasons. Hardly proof. This is so overblow. Many people have stayed awake for more than 72 hours and not died. In fact, there is no evidence that sleep deprivation causes death in humans. If you don't agree with that statement please falsify it with proof. I recently stayed awake for 72 hours as an experiment. It was hard. I had all of the temporary effects described in the article except for hallucination but it was all temporary. After 14 hours of sleep I was perfectly fine. That's one data point. Don't drive, operate machinery or perform surgery when sleep deprived but it's not some terrifying dangerous thing to go with out sleep for a few days.

distant_hat 7y ago
Actually sleep deprivation results in death and is one of the reasons it is used as a torture method. Some neurological conditions which degrade sleep significantly result in death. Among the failures observed are things like loss of thermoregulation. Guinness book of records stopped recognizing sleep deprivation records because of the dangers of going too long without sleep. Sleep deprivation has been more extensively studied in animals like mice and rats etc and invariably results in death.
- thecopy 7y ago
  What about stimulant abusers who stay awake for > 10 days?
- jcoffland 7y ago
  Sure there's lots of fear around sleep deprivation but where's the evidence that it causes death? By evidence I mean studies that don't involve pumping mice full of stimulants for days.

mrhappyunhappy 7y ago

As a designer I often run into creative blocks. Sleeping on them usually brings clarity. I’ve made it a point to never hand over any project until I’ve slept on it and had a chance to look it over the next day. Almost always I’ll find something that needs fixing or that could be done better!

interfixus 7y ago

Yet another anecdotal data point: I pulled my first all-nighter at age nine. That was July 1969, Armstrong on the Moon, which in Europe was a nighttime event. Stayed up for the rerun next morning and day. Tired, of course, and everything slightly unreal, mostly from all the agitation and the ghostly tv images, I think. Since then, have not infrequently skipped nights - because of night shifts of physical labor, because of coding and inability to call it a day, because of travelling, because of childbirth, because of sudden insomnia, because of new, exciting girlfriend or - rarely - because of partying. Generally, once I get a normal night of sleep, I'm fine, no residual effects that I'm aware of. 'A normal night of sleep' means 7 - 8 hours in the dark part of the year, 5 - 6 during summer. Just entered my sixties, and healthwise doing just fine. Working in a job with a higly varying time schedule and actually enjoying it, whereas regular hours Monday through Friday eventually always push me into torpor and quasi-depression. I rarely take naps, but will go to bed and fall asleep no problem at five or six in the afternoon if that's what my schedule dictates.

vsyu 7y ago

I think we often emphasize the importance of exercise and diet for healthy living which are definitely essential, but sleep should also be added to that list.

chiaro 7y ago

Another thing not mentioned, which I'd noticed recently after a couple of very poor nights, was feeling very dehydrated. Drinking a lot of water didn't seem to help, and it all went straight through. Some surface level research indicated that it could be a lack of vasopressin, so it makes me wonder if taking a small amount of desmopressin (with sufficient hydration electrolytes) would help take the unpleasant edge off the next day.

bcrosby95 7y ago

I went a period of several weeks with little sleep (2-3 hours per day). At first I was really tired. Then that started to go away and my head was numb. After that the numbness went away and I had a persistent headache. The reason why I got so little sleep initially stopped after about 10 days (sleep regression in twin babies). The rest of the time was because it became very difficult to sleep. Any noise would wake me up - wide awake. It would take me hours to fall asleep. I continued to only be able to get 2-3 hours per day. Even with over the counter sleep aids. Eventually I got some Ambien, which let me actually fall asleep for more time. That helped me get to the point where I could actually feel tired again when I needed to sleep. It was an interesting experience.

cgriswald 7y ago
Zolpidem was a lifesaver for me. Although I always have really strange dreams and never feel like I get “real” sleep while taking it, it helped me get back on track when my sleeping schedule would go off the rails.

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tilolebo 7y ago

So if your application has performance issues you don't understand, just add a sleep.

brainless 7y ago

There are some comments here pointing out that some effects in the article (post 30 hours of sleep deprivation for example) seem out of proportion. If you are comparing to times when you did not sleep and "felt" you performed well, please keep in mind that your "feelings" are also affected by the same lack of sleep. You might be thinking you are driving great, but compared to how your drive when fully rested, you are probably not. But you brain does not process or acknowledge this fully since it is deprived of sleep. Your mileage with lack of sleep will surely vary, but to think you are not affected (without formal tests) will be the exact result of lack or sleep - thinking/reasoning is impaired.

sumosudo 7y ago

It could get this bad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment

surfsvammel 7y ago

If sleep is so important. Why didn’t we evolve to have our newborns and toddlers not destroy our sleep? Are parents sacrificed for the well being of the kiddos? sleep deprived and frustrated father

Pimpus 7y ago
Our lives no longer resemble our natural state so the premise of this question is nonsensical.
cesnja 7y ago
From natural selection perspective, at that point you've already passed on your genes and now your most important mission is to ensure those genes get passed along. Your own wellbeing is not important.
- emerongi 7y ago
  Of course it is important, a newborn is not able to survive for years to come without parental support. If terrible sleep reduces the parent's survival or its ability to protect the child by a big enough percentage, I'd imagine there would be an evolutional pressure there.
Smaug123 7y ago
Note that humans are helpless for an incredibly long period of time (compare with horses, who can run almost as soon as they hit the ground). It looks like nature has offloaded a lot of the normal work from the child to the parents, in the case of humans; we're very much an evolutionary oddity in this regard. Interesting factoid from the fascinating Legal Systems Very Different From Ours: the Kaale (a Gypsy tribe in Finland) don't recognise the parent-child relationship at all, because reproduction is ritually unclean; the facts of reproduction cannot be admitted. Instead, a mother leaves the tribe to bear her baby, and returns with it, whereupon the baby becomes the entire kin-group's responsibility. Sounds to me like a good way to let parents have some sleep, by batching up the group's children!
koonsolo 7y ago

xuesj 7y ago

Lao zi said "the nature law told is not the really nature law" in the famous book of Daodejing. People know very litter about sleep which is so important in human life.

bunkydoo 7y ago

Tell this to elon musk and 2/3 of silicon valley... smh

robg 7y ago

I’m surprised that the work on the glymphatic system still isn’t widely known, but pretty clear it solves the why. We sleep because the glymphatic process cleans the brain of the damage caused by waking life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/ Seems likely the process is more efficient for some people versus others, just as it’s active during waking life but much less so. Less/more clearance/cleaning is mechanistically explained by the need for less/more sleep.

hahaa 7y ago

On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, in the end it was like I was drunk(like after a bottle of wine)

Havoc 7y ago
>On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. Who the hell came up with that plan? Like have they met an actual human before...ever?

hahaa 7y ago

On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, felt drunk (like after a bottle of wine)

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chewz 7y ago

It is your duty as human being to get enough sleep because if you are well rested you treat yourself better, you treat people around you better and you generally spread positive energy around. - this is how my spiritual teacher explained why getting enough sleep is first step to growth.

xhruso00 7y ago

I have a feeling that we have been genetically created to sleep so Matrix can longer work ;)

yati 7y ago

Sleep is very very important, and I've learned this the hard way. Sleeping well has been a challenge, and I am glad I'm not alone. Articles like this one and books like Why We Sleep however make me very anxious, since all they seem to do is point out how bad it is if one doesn't get enough sleep. I know that. How can I fix it? I had CBT based sleep therapy last year, and things have since improved, but not much. Then I have the occasional random doctors who tell me how sleep is actually not that important and how they used to sleep only 3h/day when they were my age. Even the cult book Why We Sleep has chapter after chapter of telling me how screwed I am because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day, with little actionable items that can help me. I get that it is super important to raise awareness about sleep, but every time I open such articles, I am invariably made anxious about my sleep, and people who know what I'm talking about know how hard it is to sleep with anxiety about your sleep. Sorry for my rant :(

brador 7y ago
Truth is the solution to your problems is a 2 page bullet pointed list of actionable items that work. For which you wouldn’t even pay $1 because there’s no way to verify the information before buying and once it’s out it’s out so there’s no profit in creating it. Solve it yourself or throw real money at the problem if you actually care.
- LeonB 7y ago
  I have just such a 2 page bullet point list here: https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_staying_asleep.html https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_stayin... Also recommend Meditation, PMR (progressive muscle relaxation) and listening to binaural beats (via Spotify). And wish you well :)
  - brador 7y ago
    5 and 6 clash. 10 is wrong. Binaurals foster dependency, do not use. Add focused breathing.
    - 7y ago

bbot23 7y ago

This might be a longshot given the age of the post, but does anyone have anything to say about OVERsleeping? This is anecdodal but over the years I've internalized how important sleep is and have been able to regularly get 8+ hours of sleep. What I've noticed is that I get more "emotionally" lethargic - level-headed when something should be stressful, which is a good thing, but also very calm and collected when something should produce euphoria. If anyone has any relatable experiences or links to articles about oversleeping I'd love to read them.

antocv 7y ago
Oversleep leads to lazyness and sadness, or introversion and contemplatency. Or, it was just those teenage years, but when I was 16 and 18, I used to sleep 14h per day. This contemplating mood lasted throughout the day, only to disappear and be replaced by ambition and will, many creative ideas late in the evening, just before it was time to sleep again. 8-10 hours is perfect, just enough to retain the creativity and motivation for the next morning which was gathered during the evening. Sleep longer than 12h, and feel so comfortable to just contemplate things without willing to do anything else but think and feel. When I sleep less than 8h, all effects as described in article happen.

setnone 7y ago

My experience with no sleep happened as a part of 21 day Vipasana meditation retreat. So on the 15th day after constant practice we had to face what they called Determination — 3 days with no sleep, not leaving the room, doing 1hr walking meditation / 1 hr sitting meditation / 1 hr rest, all over again. As far as i remember the point was to keep all the gained mindfulness and awareness in the counciouness and do not let subcounciouness which acitivates as we fall asleep to kind of ruin the whole practice. It was an intense process guided by the teacher, with new exercises each day, basically some variations of breath counting. It was difficult mentally but not so much phisically and after just a night of sleep i felt amazingly fresh. I like to think that those 3 days of a guided practice with no sleep was the key ingridient to let the meditation become the part of my existense.

jason_slack 7y ago
I love Vipassana retreats. I've done a few long ones too.

jason_slack 7y ago

I don't sleep, I guess this is called "short sleeping". I have been this way my entire life. Frustrated my family growing up and still today, age 42, is hard for my family sometimes. I sleep 3-4 hours most days, but lately just 2 hours each day. It's like clockwork. I've actually been up for 30 hours already. What makes me different? Anyone have research or thoughts on this?

kzzzznot 7y ago
How are your general energy levels, memory, mood? I can’t provide any research or thoughts on your case I’m afraid but I expect others who may be able to would need this information.
- jason_slack 7y ago
  My sleep has been reducing, strangely. I used to get 4.5 hours or so, then 4, then 3.5, etc. Recently I'm on 2. I feel fantastic every day. I get up without an alarm. I don't need caffeine, I work hard, I take care of the kids, cook, etc. Should mention that I eat a lot of blueberries, avocados, fish, tea, turmeric, etc. Memory is fine, I don't forget or have trouble recalling details. Usually. Sometimes I forget an API call, but don't we all? My mood is always positive/euphoric. Some days I'm a bit grumpy but its usually because I'm bogged down in tasks and trying to do a lot at one time and I really just want to put these chores aside and do something more enjoyable.

dagaci 7y ago

There is a period during sleep where the body engages in rapidly flushing the brain of cerebrospinal fluids. This action is intensely physical and disturbing, however with the exception of the most serene true-insomniacs only a tiny fraction of people will directly experience it. They say this prevents the build up of harmful toxins in the brain, and that the failure to do this over time can be a contributor to the onset of conditions like Alzheimers. While many may claim to have overcome the need for sleep, and some actually feel productive. And claim to be just as effective. No one should be in doubt that long term effects of sleep deprivation is devastating. Not only to the Brain, and the body as many studies have shown.

stallmanite 7y ago
Would love further reading about the brain flushing being physically felt if you were awake.
e40 7y ago
This action is intensely physical and disturbing Can you expand on that?
- dagaci 7y ago
  If you are very relaxed, but persistently unable sleep. But are not alarmed about not being able to sleep anymore, and in a state of almost like not thinking. You may suddenly experience a throbbing sensation in the head/neck, a pulsing in this state. Normally this enough to trigger alarm in the conscious and fully wake you up. But after this happens many times you can become expectant of it and just let it happen a little longer because you are not immediately alarmed.
  - michannne 7y ago
    Is this the sinking, tremor feeling you get after your awake state, but before the sleep state? That weird limbo where, if your brain jolts back on from this state, it's as if you awoke from a dream - even though you only dozed off for a couple of seconds?

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Razengan 7y ago

Idea for a startup: Sleep pods (or, perhaps more marketable, smart beds.) Create the perfect comfortable environment in an enclosure, constantly maintaining the temperature/oxygen/etc. that's optimized for the individual. Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their preferred duration. Monitor their vitals throughout sleep. Perhaps inject nutrients. Fluff: Massage, choice of music/sound effects for falling asleep and on waking up, scents/aromas, an overhead screen to show pleasing scenes, maybe to create the illusion of sleeping under the stars etc. Make it so effective that eventually the user only need to sleep once or twice every week (but of course they can always choose to sleep more often.)

driverdan 7y ago
> Make it so effective that eventually the user only need to sleep once or twice every week That's not how humans work.
MichaelApproved 7y ago
> Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their preferred duration. That alone would be a billion dollar achievement.
- deleted 7y ago
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- Liquix 7y ago
  Yeah! I've often dreamed about a pill with a tiny adjustable wheel or button that you can set to knock you out for X hours and Y minutes. The problem would be finding a non-narcotic method (modified hypnogogic headset? Slightly raise CO2/CO levels?) that works reliably. Things like doxylamine succinate, melatonin, valerian affect everyone differently, and you're opening a whole nother can of worms with the allergies/dosage/legal angle. Cool idea OP

OJFord 7y ago

> Your reaction time will begin lagging around hour 18; after a full night without sleep, it will nearly triple—which, for context, is about the same as being legally drunk. Wouldn't a reaction test be much better than breathalysing? 1. it would catch reasons (such as this) for being unfit to drive besides drunkenness 2. it would work whatever your weight / propensity for absorbing alcohol 3. it tests the actual thing we care about - reading this made me think that 'breathalyser' is an answer to an 'XY question'

nomy99 7y ago
Alcohol has other derogatory side effects affecting driving than just reaction time. Emotional impediment, drowsiness, propensity to recklessness, just to name a few..
rwmj 7y ago
Is "legally drunk" (also used in the article) some American term? What does it mean and how is it different from "illegally drunk"?
- cgriswald 7y ago
  It means meeting the legal definition of being drunk based on blood alcohol concentration.
- OJFord 7y ago
  I also thought that was odd, it appears in my comment due to quoting the article, not me using it.

blackflame 7y ago

Ive been up 72 hours straight before and I gotta say, no talking pumpkins. Sure cognitive ability is impaired but this article is extremely dramatic.

leroy_masochist 7y ago

> Studies have shown that just one week of sleep deprivation—less than five hours per night—dropped young male’s testosterone levels by a whopping 10 to 15 percent. For comparison, a healthy individual’s testosterone will naturally decline by 1 to 2 percent per year. In other words, as far as your hormonal system is concerned, a week of bad sleep will age you a decade. But isn't this temporary, not permanent? I was repeatedly sleep-deprived as a military officer in my 20's -- both chronically and acutely, and often beyond the parameters described in the article -- and my T levels are normal now that I'm in my late 30s.

Taylor_OD 7y ago

Does anyone else find it difficult to get consistent sleep regardless of their efforts? Since starting a more stressful job most weeks I have at least one night a week where my sleep is disturbed at some point and I find it difficult to get back to sleep.

rootusrootus 7y ago

Every time I travel 30 hours to India (three flights from where I live, with layovers) I get reminded in a big way that sleep is important. I can't sleep on planes, for whatever reason, and man does it ever screw with my body. Part of that is simple jet lag, but for a few days after traveling things are clearly malfunctioning, hormones out of whack, body temperature regulation bass-ackwards, brain fog, memory loss, etc.

andrelgomes 7y ago

Just started reading "Man and His Symbols" by Carl Jung (would recommend), and as other people posted, Jungarian beleive that dreams are more active than random passive thoughts. New ideas can come through the sub-conscious.

dubliner2077 7y ago

>Stay up for longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics psychosis—incoherent rambling, That's me if I am hungry or tired in general. So, 5 minuts enough.

gulls 7y ago

Sleep is indispensable and one should not compromise otherwise it will compromise with your body. Ontogeny and phylogeny reveal that you can't separate sleep from body developmentally. It will affect your body from single molecule to whole body well-being. In case you still want to wake up for work. I would suggest go for coffee and caffeine inside it will block the functioning of molecules like adenosine which are actually inducing sleep.

robkon1 7y ago

so body die