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The trouble is that, humans being humans, drivers come to rely on these systems and decrease their own vigilance, ultimately resulting in greater danger to pede

by gshdg 7y ago

The trouble is that, humans being humans, drivers come to rely on these systems and decrease their own vigilance, ultimately resulting in greater danger to pedestrians.

zaroth 7y ago
There may be some evidence this is true for certain specific features, but I think particularly with AEB, the vast experience most drivers have with the feature are just the false positives. Most people just get annoyed by it and want it off. The very few times someone will have a positive experience with AEB it’s likely to be a huge adrenaline inducing panic response. As in, oh fuck fuck fuuu.. phew! It think would take quite a bit of psychosis to actually drive in a way that you were “relying” on AEB.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  I've had the collision alert give false alarms from approaching another car too quickly, but I have never had it alert or brake for a pedestrian ahead. I think if drivers are getting annoyed by false pedestrian collision detection alerts, they are approaching pedestrians far too closely/quickly. It think would take quite a bit of psychosis to actually drive in a way that you were “relying” on AEB. You mean like approaching an intersection with phone in hand, and eyes on the phone? I see it every day.
  - usrusr 7y ago
    > approaching an intersection with phone in hand, and eyes on the phone I think the point GP was making is that those people who are prone to do so will do that without AEB just as much as with. I'm a full driving automation sceptic who believes that even automatic transmission makes people more dangerous drivers, but even I can follow the argument. Unlike many other elements of car automation, AEB isn't meant to move a task from doing it yourself to supervising the computer, it's the reverse of that. And even if AEB worked 100% reliable every time, drivers would still try to keep AEB engagements at zero because the sudden maximum braking is so much less comfortable than regular braking.
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Re your first paragraph, I don't agree - people will consider it safe to drive and not pay attention 'because the car will stop me hitting anything'. During rush hour in my UK city I reckon on about 1-in-50 drivers I see using mobile devices in hand whilst driving. Most appear to be lone female car drivers, most dangerous are male lorry/van drivers (who presumably are using delivery/routing apps).
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      Yes, AEB is specifically designed to avoid the problems we saw with earlier interventions like ABS where users who don't understand the technology may mistake its safety interventions for their own skill and so trick themselves into driving worse than before. AEB deliberately chooses maximum braking to a full stop because that does NOT feel like skill, it correctly feels like you nearly died just there. The experience is intended to be "Oh shit" not "See, I was never going to hit that, it's fine".
  - jsight 7y ago
    > I think if drivers are getting annoyed by false pedestrian collision detection alerts, they are approaching pedestrians far too closely/quickly. What? No, it means they are approach bridges at perfectly normal speeds. Or glare in the Sunrise/sunset. Or random things blowing across the road that aren't actually pedestrians. False positives are a real problem.
- ehnto 7y ago
  If AEB is to be part of a holistic automated driving experience, then it's clear it's not good enough yet. I think that is worth knowing so we can make sure we don't have users accidentally rely on them.
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
I’ve never seen anyone “rely” on auto emergency breaking before to drive more recklessly. Such a concept reminds me of an old Aerosmith video where some kid runs a car into a wall Just because they know the airbags will save them.
- gshdg 7y ago
  It’s not about driving in ways that are visibly more reckless. It’s about thinking they don’t need to pay as close attention to the road.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    That really isn’t how emergency auto breaking works though, it’s a last minute thing that you are already screwed on if t activates. Seat belts, blind spot detectors, lane keep assist, and auto cruise (with back off) inspire much more false confidence than something many people are never going to be able to experience directly.
    - gshdg 7y ago
      It's not encountering it that inspires false confidence. It's knowing that the car has it inspires false confidence. People think that it keeps you from hitting things, so they worry less about hitting things, so they focus less on not hitting things.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        The feature isn’t tangible until it is used. Psychologically, people aren’t going to trust it very much because they have no idea about its capabilities. Automatic emergency breakdown my is very much like air bags in that way, which inspire a lot less confidence than seat belts because most people never experience how air bags actually work (whereas they can feel the tug of the seat belts constantly). The best safety features are intangible until needed for this reason.

by gshdg 7y ago

The trouble is that, humans being humans, drivers come to rely on these systems and decrease their own vigilance, ultimately resulting in greater danger to pedestrians.

zaroth 7y ago

There may be some evidence this is true for certain specific features, but I think particularly with AEB, the vast experience most drivers have with the feature are just the false positives. Most people just get annoyed by it and want it off. The very few times someone will have a positive experience with AEB it’s likely to be a huge adrenaline inducing panic response. As in, oh fuck fuck fuuu.. phew! It think would take quite a bit of psychosis to actually drive in a way that you were “relying” on AEB.

Johnny555 7y ago
I've had the collision alert give false alarms from approaching another car too quickly, but I have never had it alert or brake for a pedestrian ahead. I think if drivers are getting annoyed by false pedestrian collision detection alerts, they are approaching pedestrians far too closely/quickly. It think would take quite a bit of psychosis to actually drive in a way that you were “relying” on AEB. You mean like approaching an intersection with phone in hand, and eyes on the phone? I see it every day.
- usrusr 7y ago
  > approaching an intersection with phone in hand, and eyes on the phone I think the point GP was making is that those people who are prone to do so will do that without AEB just as much as with. I'm a full driving automation sceptic who believes that even automatic transmission makes people more dangerous drivers, but even I can follow the argument. Unlike many other elements of car automation, AEB isn't meant to move a task from doing it yourself to supervising the computer, it's the reverse of that. And even if AEB worked 100% reliable every time, drivers would still try to keep AEB engagements at zero because the sudden maximum braking is so much less comfortable than regular braking.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Re your first paragraph, I don't agree - people will consider it safe to drive and not pay attention 'because the car will stop me hitting anything'. During rush hour in my UK city I reckon on about 1-in-50 drivers I see using mobile devices in hand whilst driving. Most appear to be lone female car drivers, most dangerous are male lorry/van drivers (who presumably are using delivery/routing apps).
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    Yes, AEB is specifically designed to avoid the problems we saw with earlier interventions like ABS where users who don't understand the technology may mistake its safety interventions for their own skill and so trick themselves into driving worse than before. AEB deliberately chooses maximum braking to a full stop because that does NOT feel like skill, it correctly feels like you nearly died just there. The experience is intended to be "Oh shit" not "See, I was never going to hit that, it's fine".
- jsight 7y ago
  > I think if drivers are getting annoyed by false pedestrian collision detection alerts, they are approaching pedestrians far too closely/quickly. What? No, it means they are approach bridges at perfectly normal speeds. Or glare in the Sunrise/sunset. Or random things blowing across the road that aren't actually pedestrians. False positives are a real problem.
ehnto 7y ago
If AEB is to be part of a holistic automated driving experience, then it's clear it's not good enough yet. I think that is worth knowing so we can make sure we don't have users accidentally rely on them.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

I’ve never seen anyone “rely” on auto emergency breaking before to drive more recklessly. Such a concept reminds me of an old Aerosmith video where some kid runs a car into a wall Just because they know the airbags will save them.

gshdg 7y ago
It’s not about driving in ways that are visibly more reckless. It’s about thinking they don’t need to pay as close attention to the road.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  That really isn’t how emergency auto breaking works though, it’s a last minute thing that you are already screwed on if t activates. Seat belts, blind spot detectors, lane keep assist, and auto cruise (with back off) inspire much more false confidence than something many people are never going to be able to experience directly.
  - gshdg 7y ago
    It's not encountering it that inspires false confidence. It's knowing that the car has it inspires false confidence. People think that it keeps you from hitting things, so they worry less about hitting things, so they focus less on not hitting things.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      The feature isn’t tangible until it is used. Psychologically, people aren’t going to trust it very much because they have no idea about its capabilities. Automatic emergency breakdown my is very much like air bags in that way, which inspire a lot less confidence than seat belts because most people never experience how air bags actually work (whereas they can feel the tug of the seat belts constantly). The best safety features are intangible until needed for this reason.