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How Automattic develops software for over 75M websites
- nodesocket 7y ago> If that works out well, then, you are invited to do a trial, where you work alongside an Automatic team for a period of 1-3 months for ~10 hours per week. This trial is paid with 25 Dollars per hou How are you supposed to live/support a family on $1,100 a month for 1-3 months? Would be a hard pass for me if I was looking.
- skrebbel 7y agoI think the idea is that you can squeeze the 10h/week into your existing schedule.
- save_ferris 7y agoWhich is still a huge ask for most developers, especially if those 10 hours need to be within normal business hours. It's hard enough to apply, prep for coding challenges and interview whilst employed full-time. Why go through all of that for an extra $250/wk? That's like 2-3 hours of a senior bay area engineer's time. I have a hard time believing that they're getting the absolute best engineers using this strategy, but who knows.
- docdeek 7y agoMy wife works at Automattic and was hired in this way. You can fit the hours around your other job, on weekends, at night. Recall that Automattic has teams around the world so there'll always be someone working on something in a time zone when you're available to work.
- penagwin 7y agoThis sounds awesome to me actually! The biggest risk for me is lowering my full time hours, and that can limit my ability to try/find new opportunities. Being able to work on the weekends would be awesome - it wouldn't interfere with my normal work and if be making some extra money. For context - I'm a 20 year old programmer without a degree, I'm sure those with families would find it more challenging to fit the 10 hours in.
- rgoeritz 7y agoI think you actually don't do any coding challenges, you get to know your colleagues, find out how they collaborate on a daily basis, and experience the company's development process first-hand. Sounds pretty nice, I would say.
- basilgohar 7y agoThere is a coding challenge at the beginning. You're given a sample problem to solve and then your problem is analyzed. I know this because I've applied to Automattic before and got that far. :-D
- rgoeritz 7y agoGood to know. Thanks for sharing.
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- massel 7y agoThe 10 hours are not within "normal" business hours – it's a fully remote company. In fact, it's best if they're not – it's a good test of whether someone can communicate well asynchronously (critical for success working remotely). Source: I work at Automattic
- danpalmer 7y ago10 hours a week is very much a second job though. It doesn't really matter when they are, that's a very large commitment over the course of 1-3 months. I'm not sure I know anyone who would be keen to do this.
- massel 7y agoThat's fair – the process has since been revised, and on https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/ https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/ we now say "This work is paid, part-time, and designed to last between two and eight weeks, for a total of around 40 hours of work". It's still a commitment to be sure, but we try really hard to make it as accessible as we can.
- karmelapple 7y agoThanks for the link, saving that for later! One question: is the 40 hours of work something that your company would like to use, that may go into production at Automattic? Or is it just some toy project to work on over that time?
- tnieboer 7y agoFor most engineering roles it's non-production and entirely synthetic, though based on a real app we use internally. It's the same trial project for everyone who applies to the same position. source: I work on hiring at Automattic.
- danpalmer 7y agoFWIW, I'm about as privileged as you get in tech, I have a job that is very flexible, I have few responsibilities outside of work, I don't need the money, and I don't care that much about salary. I wouldn't work 40 hours spread over 2-8 weeks. It's just too much effort for too little reward. If it were paid at contractor rates then I might – I have done a small amount of contracting in my free time – but we're talking $100+ an hour (and I don't live in the bay area). I understand the value to the company of a trial, and if I were unemployed I think it would be a great way for me to trial a company, and I'd be totally up for it, but fitting this around an existing job, let alone a family, child, being a carer, or just having an active social life, seems so much more effort than any other tech interview process I've seen. If Automattic paid 2-3x more than others, then maybe it would be worth it for that chance, but that's not something I see advertised so I assume that's not the case. Seeing this as part of the process I would be seriously concerned about the sorts of people I would end up working with, as I imagine it selecting for a very non-diverse set of developers who struggle to find jobs elsewhere. That said, if this is not how things end up, I'd be keen to read a "deep dive" sort of thing on these topics, why the extensive trial works, etc. A full rebuttal to this would be a fascinating read.
- wolco 7y agoIt sounds like a great business model. Get developers for $25 per hour to prove themselves sell those services and those who produce at a greater rate keep on and pay them slightly more. Training and selecting is self serve. You wouldn't get the best or keep the best but the game is getting more people on the training track so you can call them when new work is available.
- lsinger 7y ago> Why go through all of that for an extra $250/wk? You wouldn’t. If you’re interested in the job and Automattic are interested in you, you can do a trial. Because it’s a non-trivial time investment, they offer a small compensation. If Google flies you in for a full day interview, do they pay you a full day’s salary? Or, any salary at all? They don’t.
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- datadem 7y ago> Why go through all of that for an extra $250/wk? People don't do these trials for the money. We do it because the payoff is getting a great job, and we want to know what the company is like to gauge if it would be a good fit for us and if it indeed is a great job. I work at Automattic and the hourly rate was not at all a consideration for me when I did my trial. I understand it may be different for others, though!
- mimiflynn 7y agoWhen I moonlight, I charge what would amount to overtime pay, because to me its overtime.
- wil421 7y agoAny company that asked me to do that would get a hard pass. I’d immediately send the “thank you for the consideration and time blah blah” email. I usually research companies and hiring processes before hand and wouldn’t even apply.
- basilgohar 7y agoThat's fine, but if you read about the experience which a lot of people share online, it's usually quite positive and not at all what you would expect from other, bigger and more established brick-and-mortar shops. I applied, went through part of the process, but eventually didn't get the job. However, I found every part of the process respectful and they explicitly invited me to apply again in the future, and I have every sense that it was sincere.
- hew 7y agoFWIW, we try to be open about those processes just for that reason: https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/ https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/
- walshemj 7y agoThat's generous, that sort of offer I must admit I would think about ghosting them and putting that company on my personal never call list.
- 1123581321 7y agoWhat would Automattic lose by not hiring you?
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- tweednose 7y agoWhat a joke. Work overtime on top of my job for $25/hr and no benefits? Fact is the companies that are the most open on HN about compensation pay the least (like Gitlab and Buffer). My theory is that instead of paying more they simply cast a wide net via hiring. If the net's large enough you'll find enough people willing to be paid low rates. You know who doesn't talk about salary? Companies that pay well and hire devs who know what they're worth.
- Kluny 7y agoWhen I applied to work there, I was making $21/hour, Canadian, for similar work. $25USD per hour works out to around $32CAD, so it was well worth it for me.
- basilgohar 7y agoSalary is not the end-all, be-all for everyone. Some people will gladly exchange a significant amount of salary to work somewhere that has a good and healthy culture, whose end-product aligns with their own moral, ethical, or other principles, and/or just provides them some other kind of intangible benefit. For the record, however, a lot of lousy paying companies also don't share their salaries here, so I don't quite know what actual point you're making because your conclusion does not follow from your assertion, which itself is also false.
- tweednose 7y agoThat's assuming Automatic really is a great place to work. Why would anyone believe that Automatic is such a great place to work if they value the time of their candidates so little? If they think it's fine to throw an extra 10 hours/week of work at candidates for little to no pay, how will they treat you once you're salaried? They may think that this is the one true hiring system, but it's seriously weird. Other companies have figured out how to hire people without this nonsense. Imagine if this was the standard in the industry. Some company would have the brilliant idea of hiring people without a 2 month trial period and write a breathless blog post about how they're so cool that they hire people based on interviews alone! HN would go nuts over this forward thinking company that treats its candidates so much better.
- basilgohar 7y agoDo you already live/support your family by only working ~10 hours per week? If so, please share your line of work and company...
- photomatt 7y agoHowdy, Automattic CEO here. The trial is meant to be mutual, so both sides get a realistic idea of what it’s like to work together. I would say that how we work now 1 month is on the outside of how long I want the entire process to take, from application to offer letter. So that means the trial project can be a lot shorter. People come in from all sorts of situations in terms of when and how they can participate, the key there is just communication. The team is very flexible in tailoring the process to be inclusive of different time restrictions people may have. Finally I’ll just say as someone who used to be deep in the code and systems myself as WordPress and Automattic started and scaled, one of my favorite things today is seeing the impact new engineers joining can have on products and teams that impact large swathes of the web. If you’re curious at all about working with a fully distributed company with open source deep in its ethos, please drop in an application and come meet our folks. I’m always happy as well to exchange DMs or hop on a quick call to talk about our opportunities.
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- a11cthrowaway 7y agoWhy do you force applicants applying to Automattic to do something that violates the company's own conflict-of-interest policy? Automattic's draconian conflict-of-interest policy is well known in and out of the organization: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20831965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20831965 We are not allowed to do outside work at any time during our employment without legal approval, including things as basic as part-time DOG WALKING (I won't ever forget that town hall debate). We have to shut down our money-making apps, are not allowed to do any type of consulting or freelance work, and are essentially barred from doing any kind of for-profit behavior without lawyers getting involved. And yet you require your applicants to do paid work in their off-hours to even be considered for the job? How is that OK?
- withinboredom 7y ago> Why do you force applicants applying to Automattic to do something that violates the company's own conflict-of-interest policy? There's no forcing there. Most other companies allow you to work outside of the company, or know that it's unenforcable to tell you not to, so you do the trial. Otherwise, you do the trial at your own peril or quit.
- 40acres 7y agoMet with an Automatic recruiter last month and had the same reaction. I just didn't have the time to dedicate so much of my focus to this opportunity while having a full time job. Perhaps if I take a sabbatical I will consider Automatic but I'd rather spend and hour leetcoding every day for a few weeks than go through their process.
- ivanhoe 7y agoWell, you could be living somewhere outside of US for instance?
- chrisweekly 7y agoI agree the rate is silly, but it's worth noting the "10 hours per week" part.
- not_a_cop75 7y agoWhy do I feel like this is the most extreme form of clickbait? Imagine vi or vim was marketed by how many workstations used it for modifications.
- shujito 7y agois it beacause of the company name? I thought it said "automatic development" or something of the sort...
- CharlesW 7y agoIsn't "clickbait" sensationalistic? In this case, the title and content strike me as boringly factual.
- bluedino 7y agoThis podcast is very hard to listen to. The way that both people talk, the naiveness of the host....it sounds like Im listening to an infomercial for tech jobs. I realize that English isn't the native language of either speaker.
- lsinger 7y agoSome more information on how Automattic hires: - https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/ https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/ - https://www.andyserong.com/2019/07/25/switching-jobs-and-applying-for-automattic/ https://www.andyserong.com/2019/07/25/switching-jobs-and-app... - https://danq.me/2019/08/30/automattic-00/ https://danq.me/2019/08/30/automattic-00/
- K0SM0S 7y agoThat was extremely interesting, thanks for the pointers. There are really so many ways to conduct "hiring", the process of onboarding someone new into a group; and this serves as impeccable illustration that if you are willing to innovate in that regard, we can do so much more and so much better today than just 10-20 years ago (and ever before). The process of Automattic makes you want to work with them if only because they seem to have a fantastic culture, really play the game at a higher level on the 'human' part.
- kevindong 7y ago> If that works out well, then, you are invited to do a trial, where you work alongside an Automatic team for a period of 1-3 months for ~10 hours per week. This trial is paid with 25 Dollars per hour. $25/hour for a professional software developer is kind of insulting. Particularly so if Automattic is looking the same tier of talent as the top tech companies.
- hayksaakian 7y agoKeep in mind that Automattic is a remote company. Maybe $25 per hour won't attract local talent from silicon valley, but there's a huge global market of talented engineers that would happily apply to work remote at a company like Automattic.
- impatientduck 7y agoI guess, but then how are developers in first world countries supposed to pay the rent? If a company wants to source all their developers from third world countries maybe they shouldn't be allowed to list their stock in first world exchanges. Seems fair, no?
- xyzzyz 7y agoThey can take some other job which will presumably pay more? Nobody's forcing them to work for $25/hour.
- impatientduck 7y agoExcept if we outsource all the jobs...Likewise, no one would be forcing Automattic to list on a first world exchange - there are many other ones where they could be free to float their stock. How come all's fair for labor, but not for capital?
- cutler 7y agoExactly. In the long game remote = outsourcing = race to the bottom. Marx saw it coming a long time ago.
- cryptozeus 7y agoSide point but... “In this episode, I talk to Leif Singer, an engineer at the fully remote company Why some of the big tech is still not very remote friendly like FB, Google, Apple etc.
- ykevinator 7y agoIt's php right?
- basilgohar 7y agoWordPress is written in PHP, but Automattic (the company that develops WordPress) has other products that are written in other languages.
- galenko 7y agoThe new editing interface (Gutenberg) has been written in react and there are rumours about more of the backend being rewritten in it too. edit: I meant more of the admin area, sorry.
- marcolussetti 7y agoThe backend being rewritten in React? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think that's at all correct...
- goatlover 7y agoThe backend being rewritten in anything but PHP would have implications for hosting, so I highly doubt that given you're talking about a significant fraction of the web. It would also be a backwards incompatible upgrade.
- withinboredom 7y agoIn our data division, we stick to Python and Scala, with a little bit of PHP and Javascript for integrations.