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Can we please start a cultural movement that forces large corporations to choose between appeasing Chinese censors and looking like fools to the rest of the wes

Can we please start a cultural movement that forces large corporations to choose between appeasing Chinese censors and looking like fools to the rest of the west or getting banned in China. Really seems like a win win scenario.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> Can we please start a cultural movement that forces large corporations to choose between appeasing Chinese censors and looking like fools to the rest of the west or getting banned in China. But what about the share-holder value?
- diveanon 7y ago
  That's the best part, there is no correct choice. Corporations love sitting the moral grey area on issues like this, but putting them in a position of having to choose between looking like Chinese stooges or getting banned from China will break their minds.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I don't think it will, really, because as a Chinese stooge with access to Chinese market, you have ample money to spend on PR & marketing that makes you not look like a Chinese stooge.
    - HenryBemis 7y ago
      USA population is close to 330m. I was reading that NBA has 500m "followers" (I will translate it to consumers). Assuming that only half the US population follows (consumes, pays) for NBA related products, then Chinese market is every NBA official's wet dream. Unless this becomes a binary choice (dictatorship Vs freedom) all the money making sharks (FIFA, NBA, etc) will pretend that they "were not aware of such events taking place in China/do not comment on internal affairs of other sovereign nations" as long as the money rolls in. I was glad to see earlier on CNN a 'super' writing "NBA Commissioner: we are no apologizing..." But the first 24h the reactions went from not existing to laughable. Good to see that freedom is more important than revenue.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        >Assuming that only half the US population follows (consumes, pays) for NBA related products I would say at most, 10% of the US consumes/pays for NBA related products. NBA finals are estimated to have 15M viewers last year, so even doubling that you're only getting to 10%.
  - ianleeclark 7y ago
    > Corporations love sitting the moral grey area on issues like this It sure doesn't seem to me that bending to the will of an authoritarian state is "sitting in the moral grey area." They've made their decision.
    - esailija 7y ago
      authoritarian state is a tautology
      - shantly 7y ago
        It’s not. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian https://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian
        esailija 7y ago
        Yes, if laws were optional then they would cease to be laws. Laws subordinate individual freedom and every state has laws. Also the state itself determines what the constitution is and even how it's interpreted or overriden. So saying state is accountable to constitution (which is determined by state ) is circular reasoning.
        shantly 7y ago
        There's a distinction here, or we wouldn't bother to have the word. People find it useful. You're in the minority if you don't, which is fine, but you're wrong about common use of the word, as recorded in a typical dictionary. > Also the state itself determines what the constitution is and even how it's interpreted or overriden. So saying state is accountable to constitution (which is determined by state ) is circular reasoning. Well, sort of. Human systems are messy and insisting that any term applied to them be absolutely true or else invalid won't get you far. That some governments would have more success and ease modifying the terms of their own constitution wildly counter to the will or interests of those they rule than others can easily be seen as true, I think, and is related to the set of norms and ideals held by those who believe they ought justly and actually to have a say in how the government runs, and to who sees themselves as being legitimately entitled to same, for that matter (i.e. do most expect that, or only some minority), and furthermore both of those are influenced by the constitution, laws, and actual historical practices of the state they're operating under. Technically possible matters less than what is practical and likely when it comes to classifying human systems, as they're hard to pick apart and take one element at a time what with all the feedback and mutual influence involved.
nabla9 7y ago
How about Chinese owners? Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-invested-in/ https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-... AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese. Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese. Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.
- diveanon 7y ago
  Make them choose between the two markets. I'm tired of the idea that the Western and Chinese markets can both be appeased the middle of the road morality. What is happening in HK right now is wrong, and the west has fought wars over this very issue.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > and the west has fought wars over this very issue Which ones? Also, China has nukes, we probably don't want to see that war starting. I don't think there's a good military option available.
    - atroche 7y ago
      Do they have the capacity to hit targets in the continental US without winning naval supremacy?
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        I don't think the navy can do anything about ICBMs, but even if, they can start by nuking the US navy.
        arethuza 7y ago
        The US Navy does appear to have an ABM capability on some of its ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defens...
kbrackbill 7y ago
Isn't that already true now? The problem is that most corporations seem to be picking the first option.
- diveanon 7y ago
  Only because they are not facing any consequences back home. It needs to be clear to them that this is a binary choice, you either support totalitarianism or you are against it.
nextlevelwizard 7y ago
How do you suppose this would be implemented? These things only affect a very small niche audience. Most people don't care what is going on in HK and even less people will care about this incident.
- diveanon 7y ago
  I feel like social media is the best legal venue for it. Start sending messages to every game dev, project manager, and director at these companies asking them why they support the totalitarian oppression of HK. Ask them what they are currently doing to limit the influence of totalitarian regimes on their corporate policy. Make the issue personal for the companies by fomenting discontent from within.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    "Make the issue personal for the companies by fomenting discontent from within." But the only options available to the employees from that point onwards is group organization (eg. unionization) which is itself politically controversial and prone to ruining their careers (see: google employees' organizing efforts resulting in the majority of the original organizers being foistered out of google) or leaving which puts their livelihoods in jeopardy as they abandon one of the biggest employers of their industry..
    - diveanon 7y ago
      Change requires sacrifice. If people aren't willing to stand behind their beliefs at the risk of temporary financial hardship to support people putting their lives at risk to stand against a lifetime under tyrannical rule then they do not deserve the freedoms their country affords them.
      - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        What happens if I have dependents? Should I sacrifice the wellbeing of my child with a medical condition? My spouse with their medical condition? Should I sacrifice my parents who need me to help paying for their care? What if I come from an impoverished neighbourhood and I'm putting my nephews and neices through college- should they also be sacrificed? What happens if it's not temporary? What happens if I'm blackballed for my whole career? Asking for sacrifice from the people who have the least amount of power as individuals, and the most to lose, when there is another option-- demand the sacrifice on the part of an unfeeling instution with no family just a C-suite and a board-- is borderline inhumane.
narrator 7y ago
Six Corporations control 90% of the media in America. They can make business decisions to censor whomever they want and they are global corporations doing lots of business in China.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Six Corporations control 90% of the media in America Totally incomparable. America has the First Amendment. Its government and corporations can be held accountable in courts. Any rando has the capacity to pine off about anything on Twitter. Meanwhile China boasts a centralised bureaucracy literally censoring Winnie the Pooh images because its dictator doesn’t like his resemblance. Yes, America has a media ownership concentration problem. No, it’s not remotely comparable to Xi’s Beijing.
  - tomatotomato37 7y ago
    As has been spammed in many threads about hate speech type censorship before, only the government is legally accountable to the First Amendment, private businesses and that corporate personhood BS can use their own freedom of speech to censor whoever they want on their platforms.
    - cycloptic 7y ago
      Yes because there is only one government for any given piece of land. Fortunately for you, there are many private businesses to choose from. You can even start your own if you like.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      Exactly. By surrendering more and more of our society to the private sector, we're surrendering more and more to organizations in which we don't get a vote.
      - jrbuhl 7y ago
        We vote with our dollars.
bwang008 7y ago
The main focus of a business is to turn in a profit and making decisions that doesn't align in some way with that key objective is not something they will likely engage with. The situation in HK is bad, but at the end of the day people still want to keep their jobs, and company leaders need to try to do what is in the best interests for the company and the employees. It wouldn't happen, but assuming if it did and you made companies pick between demonstrating integrity or looking the other way to do business with China and be publicly denounced, any half decent leader would bite the bullet and do the former, essentially every large US company. Also keep in mind how much money from Chinese companies is integrated into the US. Things are much more complicated than you make out, I don't think it is right to draw a line in the sand and push this 'you're either with us or against us' narrative. Things can't stay like this in China for long, the change will happen from within the country, all we can do as business partners is try to not get involved in the ensuing chaos and protect our own well being and loved ones.
- ivankolev 7y ago
  It is rather optimistic to think a change would be possible to emerge on its own, given the active and increasing, almost total surveilance going on. Technology is a game changer here, freedom movements are getting harder and have to perhaps evolve their own tech...
marcosdumay 7y ago
Isn't this what we are doing here?
- diveanon 7y ago
  It needs to be organized, focused, and have real consequence for the companies that choose to stay in the middle. A couple of snarky tweets isn't going to save hong kong, and taiwan after that. The writing is on the wall, if we don't stand against China now the rest of the world will stand idly by as they erase 200+ years of liberalism and the greatest improvement in human rights in our species history.
99_00 7y ago
Gradual decoupling from China is the only idea that I have heard that will work. Open to other ideas though.

ianleeclark 7y ago

> Can we please start a cultural movement that forces large corporations to choose between appeasing Chinese censors and looking like fools to the rest of the west or getting banned in China. But what about the share-holder value?

diveanon 7y ago
That's the best part, there is no correct choice. Corporations love sitting the moral grey area on issues like this, but putting them in a position of having to choose between looking like Chinese stooges or getting banned from China will break their minds.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I don't think it will, really, because as a Chinese stooge with access to Chinese market, you have ample money to spend on PR & marketing that makes you not look like a Chinese stooge.
  - HenryBemis 7y ago
    USA population is close to 330m. I was reading that NBA has 500m "followers" (I will translate it to consumers). Assuming that only half the US population follows (consumes, pays) for NBA related products, then Chinese market is every NBA official's wet dream. Unless this becomes a binary choice (dictatorship Vs freedom) all the money making sharks (FIFA, NBA, etc) will pretend that they "were not aware of such events taking place in China/do not comment on internal affairs of other sovereign nations" as long as the money rolls in. I was glad to see earlier on CNN a 'super' writing "NBA Commissioner: we are no apologizing..." But the first 24h the reactions went from not existing to laughable. Good to see that freedom is more important than revenue.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      >Assuming that only half the US population follows (consumes, pays) for NBA related products I would say at most, 10% of the US consumes/pays for NBA related products. NBA finals are estimated to have 15M viewers last year, so even doubling that you're only getting to 10%.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > Corporations love sitting the moral grey area on issues like this It sure doesn't seem to me that bending to the will of an authoritarian state is "sitting in the moral grey area." They've made their decision.
  - esailija 7y ago
    authoritarian state is a tautology
    - shantly 7y ago
      It’s not. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian https://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian
      - esailija 7y ago
        Yes, if laws were optional then they would cease to be laws. Laws subordinate individual freedom and every state has laws. Also the state itself determines what the constitution is and even how it's interpreted or overriden. So saying state is accountable to constitution (which is determined by state ) is circular reasoning.
        shantly 7y ago
        There's a distinction here, or we wouldn't bother to have the word. People find it useful. You're in the minority if you don't, which is fine, but you're wrong about common use of the word, as recorded in a typical dictionary. > Also the state itself determines what the constitution is and even how it's interpreted or overriden. So saying state is accountable to constitution (which is determined by state ) is circular reasoning. Well, sort of. Human systems are messy and insisting that any term applied to them be absolutely true or else invalid won't get you far. That some governments would have more success and ease modifying the terms of their own constitution wildly counter to the will or interests of those they rule than others can easily be seen as true, I think, and is related to the set of norms and ideals held by those who believe they ought justly and actually to have a say in how the government runs, and to who sees themselves as being legitimately entitled to same, for that matter (i.e. do most expect that, or only some minority), and furthermore both of those are influenced by the constitution, laws, and actual historical practices of the state they're operating under. Technically possible matters less than what is practical and likely when it comes to classifying human systems, as they're hard to pick apart and take one element at a time what with all the feedback and mutual influence involved.

nabla9 7y ago

How about Chinese owners? Chinese Tencent owns 5 percent of Blizzard, if full owner of Riot Games, 48% of Epic Games, 11.5% of Bluehole (Fortnite and PUBG), 5% of Ubisoft. They are also investor in Discord. https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-invested-in/ https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-... AMC is fully owned by Chinese. The largest movie theater chain in the United States is fully owned by Chinese. Legendary Entertainment Group is owned by Chinese. Forbes Media sold majority stake to Chinese company.

diveanon 7y ago
Make them choose between the two markets. I'm tired of the idea that the Western and Chinese markets can both be appeased the middle of the road morality. What is happening in HK right now is wrong, and the west has fought wars over this very issue.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > and the west has fought wars over this very issue Which ones? Also, China has nukes, we probably don't want to see that war starting. I don't think there's a good military option available.
  - atroche 7y ago
    Do they have the capacity to hit targets in the continental US without winning naval supremacy?
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      I don't think the navy can do anything about ICBMs, but even if, they can start by nuking the US navy.
      - arethuza 7y ago
        The US Navy does appear to have an ABM capability on some of its ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defens...

kbrackbill 7y ago

Isn't that already true now? The problem is that most corporations seem to be picking the first option.

diveanon 7y ago
Only because they are not facing any consequences back home. It needs to be clear to them that this is a binary choice, you either support totalitarianism or you are against it.

nextlevelwizard 7y ago

How do you suppose this would be implemented? These things only affect a very small niche audience. Most people don't care what is going on in HK and even less people will care about this incident.

diveanon 7y ago
I feel like social media is the best legal venue for it. Start sending messages to every game dev, project manager, and director at these companies asking them why they support the totalitarian oppression of HK. Ask them what they are currently doing to limit the influence of totalitarian regimes on their corporate policy. Make the issue personal for the companies by fomenting discontent from within.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "Make the issue personal for the companies by fomenting discontent from within." But the only options available to the employees from that point onwards is group organization (eg. unionization) which is itself politically controversial and prone to ruining their careers (see: google employees' organizing efforts resulting in the majority of the original organizers being foistered out of google) or leaving which puts their livelihoods in jeopardy as they abandon one of the biggest employers of their industry..
  - diveanon 7y ago
    Change requires sacrifice. If people aren't willing to stand behind their beliefs at the risk of temporary financial hardship to support people putting their lives at risk to stand against a lifetime under tyrannical rule then they do not deserve the freedoms their country affords them.
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      What happens if I have dependents? Should I sacrifice the wellbeing of my child with a medical condition? My spouse with their medical condition? Should I sacrifice my parents who need me to help paying for their care? What if I come from an impoverished neighbourhood and I'm putting my nephews and neices through college- should they also be sacrificed? What happens if it's not temporary? What happens if I'm blackballed for my whole career? Asking for sacrifice from the people who have the least amount of power as individuals, and the most to lose, when there is another option-- demand the sacrifice on the part of an unfeeling instution with no family just a C-suite and a board-- is borderline inhumane.

narrator 7y ago

Six Corporations control 90% of the media in America. They can make business decisions to censor whomever they want and they are global corporations doing lots of business in China.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Six Corporations control 90% of the media in America Totally incomparable. America has the First Amendment. Its government and corporations can be held accountable in courts. Any rando has the capacity to pine off about anything on Twitter. Meanwhile China boasts a centralised bureaucracy literally censoring Winnie the Pooh images because its dictator doesn’t like his resemblance. Yes, America has a media ownership concentration problem. No, it’s not remotely comparable to Xi’s Beijing.
- tomatotomato37 7y ago
  As has been spammed in many threads about hate speech type censorship before, only the government is legally accountable to the First Amendment, private businesses and that corporate personhood BS can use their own freedom of speech to censor whoever they want on their platforms.
  - cycloptic 7y ago
    Yes because there is only one government for any given piece of land. Fortunately for you, there are many private businesses to choose from. You can even start your own if you like.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    Exactly. By surrendering more and more of our society to the private sector, we're surrendering more and more to organizations in which we don't get a vote.
    - jrbuhl 7y ago
      We vote with our dollars.

bwang008 7y ago

The main focus of a business is to turn in a profit and making decisions that doesn't align in some way with that key objective is not something they will likely engage with. The situation in HK is bad, but at the end of the day people still want to keep their jobs, and company leaders need to try to do what is in the best interests for the company and the employees. It wouldn't happen, but assuming if it did and you made companies pick between demonstrating integrity or looking the other way to do business with China and be publicly denounced, any half decent leader would bite the bullet and do the former, essentially every large US company. Also keep in mind how much money from Chinese companies is integrated into the US. Things are much more complicated than you make out, I don't think it is right to draw a line in the sand and push this 'you're either with us or against us' narrative. Things can't stay like this in China for long, the change will happen from within the country, all we can do as business partners is try to not get involved in the ensuing chaos and protect our own well being and loved ones.

ivankolev 7y ago
It is rather optimistic to think a change would be possible to emerge on its own, given the active and increasing, almost total surveilance going on. Technology is a game changer here, freedom movements are getting harder and have to perhaps evolve their own tech...

marcosdumay 7y ago

Isn't this what we are doing here?

diveanon 7y ago
It needs to be organized, focused, and have real consequence for the companies that choose to stay in the middle. A couple of snarky tweets isn't going to save hong kong, and taiwan after that. The writing is on the wall, if we don't stand against China now the rest of the world will stand idly by as they erase 200+ years of liberalism and the greatest improvement in human rights in our species history.

99_00 7y ago

Gradual decoupling from China is the only idea that I have heard that will work. Open to other ideas though.