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What makes this even worse is that this is only a huge issue because Adobe moved to the whole 'Creative Cloud' thing rather than the old 'buy each product outri

• dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
  It also shows that Stallman was right from the beginning, it's just most people didn't believe such things could happen. The very basic right, the right to run the software, can be limited in an arbitrary way.
  • nixpulvis 7y ago
    Honestly, it's not enough to just be able to run it. You need to be able to see it's source, and make modifications to it. Not all software developers can handle all use cases that will be needed, and it's unrealistic to say, "if the use case is needed enough there would be market forces to implement it".
  • noobermin 7y ago
    This comment says "Stallman was right" regarding the cloud. Not "Stallman was right about Marvin Minsky." This is an argument people can't distinguish the man from the idea, or his software, or his organization, etc.
    • SkyBelow 7y ago
      I wonder how many people even know what Stallman said about Minsky. Most of the media I read reported incorrect summaries that leave out critical details.
    • droithomme 7y ago
      Well let's talk Minsky since you wanted to bring it up. Minsky and Stallman were long term friends. Minsky is dead and can't defend himself. Stallman, when directly asked about Minsky, said he didn't believe Minsky knew the girl was a sex slave, and Minsky believed the sex was consensual. It's a fair comment by Stallman. Legally it's also irrelevant since believing sex is consensual when it's not doesn't matter. Also there's the issue of it being statutory rape as well, age of consent in Virgin Islands is 18. But Minsky's dead so he can't be prosecuted for either charge anyway. Did Minsky know he was a rapist? Maybe not, Stallman points out. Fair enough. Was Minsky legally a rapist? Almost certainly so. Would have been a good follow up question to Stallman so he could clarify his thoughts. Are Stallman's opinions here objectionable? I don't find them so. Worth annihilating the reputation and life of someone who is possibly the most productive software developer in history? I think not.
      • etiam 7y ago
        I don't particularly want to engage further with what I consider a pure smear campaign, but it seems fair to at least take the time to share the information with you that the woman's deposition mentions she was 'directed to' have sex with Marvin Minsky, but not that she actually did, and there is an eyewitness testifying that Minsky turned her down. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20909030 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20909030 I don't find anything objectionable about Stallman's opinions here either. Quite the contrary in fact.
        • dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
          So all this sad show is based on false reporting about something that Stallman didn't say about something that Minsky didn't even do. I don't know how the people who caused this can look at their reflection in the mirror with a straight face.
    • SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
      Unless I'm missing something your comment (and the replies to it) are the only mentions of Minsky in this entire thread?
      • LocalH 7y ago
        I'm guessing the comment had initially started to fade, but people have voted it back up since then?
• fsloth 7y ago
  "It's a 'brilliant' example of how these 'cloud' based services are a bad deal for the user..." I've understood the whole point with SaaS software is that corporate buyers prefer operational expenditure to capital expenditure. It's not about an evil plot to screw consumers more. It's a strategy to charge corporate clients in a way that they like.
  • mehrdadn 7y ago
    I thought the point was that the software was already so good that people would want newer versions less and less, so they had to change the business model to get a steady revenue.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • abruzzi 7y ago
    You are correct, but they force the same purchase type on all consumer, rather than let people decide.
• mc32 7y ago
  This true. They have all discovered that the SaaS model is the best model for software sales —which is why the big players are all pushing everything into the SaaS model, which while convenient (financially and administratively), have drawback such as availability and of course the recurring nature of billing where you can’t choose to stay on an old version either because it’s good’nuff or because of compatibility reasons. Yet, when google mail for business came out everyone hailed the idea; sigh... no more CALs, etc. which is true but now you have to pay recurringly (and msy have to keep former accounts live for compliance reasons)
  • TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    > best model I wonder how much recurring revenue Adobe just had wiped off their books. What about when your government sanctions your biggest market?
    • mc32 7y ago
      I don’t see how shrinkwrapped SW would be a better revenue model. Whatever the sold already are in the books. At least with SaaS once sanctions are lifted they potentially have the market opened again. Also SW piracy isn’t unusual is places strapped for money. They surely wouldn’t get away with paying for Adobe SaaS with Petros (crypto currency).
• jwc1 7y ago
  I agree with your core point, but I think it would be unfair to avoid noting some of the clear ways that SaaS has benefited users. Accessibility: Individuals/businesses who couldn't afford a large, upfront expenditure for software but can afford the smaller, monthly expense now have access to the best tool for the job. Flexibility: for sporadic consumers ("I use Photoshop/Illustrator once a year to make my Groundhog Day card"), the ability to subscribe for the one month of the year they use the product and subsequently cancel is incredible.
  • buboard 7y ago
    The only benefit is in their marketing department and Adobe's bottom line. If you wanted to use photoshop once a year, you could download the trial version. (Let alone that adobe's apps are no easy to learn toys - you can't just use them once a year). I 'll give it 1 year before we start looking back at SaaS as the abomination that it is.
  • wolco 7y ago
    The I use this software once a year use-case was handled with free trials. For the limited number of companies who need to spread out a 1000 dollars or less over a year putting it on a credit card would be the cheaper option over the year. The only groups that benefits is those who want to access the product from many locations/computers or the one who doesn't want to install anything. Those are two big groups.
• bcheung 7y ago
  Yeah, I got sick of Adobe's subscription model. Every release it seems like PS gets slower and slower without adding any features of value to me. I hate that if I want to have a certain combination of 2 or 3 apps I have to pay for basically everything which includes 80% of stuff I don't need. Paying $600/yr for something I only occasionally use a few times a month is a joke. I've since switched to Affinity.
  • arthurcolle 7y ago
    How do you like the competitor offering so far?
    • bcheung 7y ago
      It's pretty impressive. I wish there was scripting support though.
    • potta_coffee 7y ago
      Not PS, but I use Affinity Designer now rather than Illustrator, and it is awesome. I love it.
      • acqq 7y ago
        But how to open old projects once one switches to non-Adobe applications?
        • indymike 7y ago
          Affinity does a pretty good job with .ai .ps and other Adobe formats.
        • open-source-ux 7y ago
          Designer will import Illustrator files (.ai) and PDF files. It can also export to PSD and PDF (but not to .ai). Photo imports (and exports) to PSD file format. Some Photoshop features that aren't available in Photo (e.g. smart objects) won't be editable in the same way when opening a PSD in Photo, but you'll still be able to open the PSD file. If you have a lot of Illustrator and Photoshop files, best to try them out in the Affinity apps to see if you're happy with the import feature.
• rolleiflex 7y ago
  Funny enough, there is another issue with exactly this on another thread on the front page right now — Mac OS Catalina, which got released today, is killing the last remaining perpetual Adobe CS6 licenses available. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21184387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21184387 Bad day for Adobe. Or a good one? I'm not sure, but definitely an interesting one.
  • cableshaft 7y ago
    Good thing Microsoft is big on backwards compatibility. Hopefully CS6 will keep working on PCs for awhile longer. Sucks about Mac, though.
    • taneq 7y ago
      > Good thing Microsoft is big on backwards compatibility. Well, was. They're pushing pretty hard on this evergreen "windows-as-a-service" thing.
      • Crinus 7y ago
        This is just a different deployment and pricing scheme, you still get the same OS with same backwards compatibility. Besides i do not see how they could do a "windows-as-a-service" offer without an OS, unless they convince every computer manufacturer to make their PC BIOSes a thin client for Microsoft's servers and you rent computing time/power from their datacenters running Windows (though even then, it'd still be Windows with the same backwards compatibility). (of course all that sucks for us who want to buy a thing and keep it forever - or at least as "forever" as activation servers will allow you to - but i'm trying to ignore that aspect in this comment here)
    • rasz 7y ago
      Microsoft is so big on backwards compatibility they keep trying releasing new products locked to Store UWP software.
• the8472 7y ago
  > Now on the other hand... they're screwed. No, it just means adobe created a whole new fleet of pirates.
• rkagerer 7y ago
  Yep, it's the flip side of the cloud coin: you're no longer in control [of the thing you just bought]. Average users don't fully appreciate the distinction, until events like this underscore it.
• newguy1234 7y ago
  Cloud software has mostly been for the benefit of the company compared to the end-user.
  • lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Cloud software (especially iOS apps) has resulted in a huge decline in time I spend doing tech support for family/friends. It’s nice when stuff just works. Although, I agree, the subject of this thread is a huge drawback.
    • Crinus 7y ago
      There are always benefits to sweeten the pill :-P
• umvi 7y ago
  Yeah, like how Microsoft's HUP program used to let me buy full offline office through work for $15. Awesome deal. A few months ago they discontinued that model and now I can get Office 365 at a discounted annual price. The enraging part was the email where they spun it like this change was great for me and that HUP is way better than it was before. What a crock, SaaS for consumers is cancer.
  • Angostura 7y ago
    Other little things too. A long standing bug/limitation of PowerPoint Mac is that you can't embed fonts in a presentation. So you literally can't create a presentation on a Mac and know that it will display correctly on another machine. The ticket was closed as 'fixed/implemented' with the launch of the most recent version of Office - but you can only embed fonts if you have an Office 365 account. Its becoming 'subscribe to unlock basic features'.
    • coffeeling 7y ago
      You can also wait for three years for Office 2021 ;)
• aerovistae 7y ago
  they're not screwed if they know how to use thepiratebay. this isn't a hard problem to solve for the technically competent. am I being blithe about this? I don't think I am, but feel free to inform me if I'm missing something.
  • TaylorGood 7y ago
    The issue now is everything associated with their "Creative Cloud" account; artwork layers saved to use throughout the programs, etc. – not as catastrophic as the update itself, but redundant for sure. Publicly, their Behance profile going down is probably where it hurts most.
• tjpaudio 7y ago
  To be fair, and whether you agree with it or not, the point of the executive order was to screw them in this manner. So, it's a feature not a bug as far as the government is concerned.
  • gowld 7y ago
    That's parent's point. Cloud software puts you at the mercy of the vendor's government on an ongoing basis.
• ssss11 7y ago
  It’s own vs rent and the internet has enabled tech firms to operate as rent seekers. I personally think owning is the way to go for important things, but many people don’t see the distinction any more.
• noninoy 7y ago
  not true, every adobe aplication have "portable" version and is installed on the host machine not cloud, they will loose cloud assets but apps will be fine
• StreamBright 7y ago
  Exactly. People don't understand why I want to buy boxed software and deadwood books and have all my music downloaded (after legal purchase) only.
  • Crinus 7y ago
    Well you can still buy downloadable DRM-free software and DRM-free (or DRM-freed :-P) ebooks just like your music (which i thin it is much easier and space effective). That is what i do myself - i avoid anything with DRM (exceptions are some games that i wait for price drops to around the price of a coffee) and store everything on my external HDD.
• paggle 7y ago
  This is particularly brutal because for many Venezuelans, online freelancing work is their only way of accessing US dollars, which is their only way of accessing basic necessities. The quantities of dollars here are so low they would make your head hurt -- so places like Fiverr, while seeming like a place to do garbage work to someone in San Francisco, can be a near-literal lifeline to people with no access to other means of income. Fuck you Adobe
• cableshaft 7y ago
  Yep. I haven't upgraded since CS6. It still does everything I need it to do. I probably would have upgraded by now though if it was even possible to just buy a newer version, as there are some nice-to-have features the newer versions have. But at least I don't have to worry about dumb crap like this.
• cm2187 7y ago
  Or if the company goes bust or discontinues the product.
• bjornjaja 7y ago
  Hence the benefit of open source products. Imagine if everyone who bought a photoshop subscription supported some great open source software. They’d get dividends on their investment as equal owners of the software!
• paulcole 7y ago
  I mean these ‘cloud’ based services are also a good deal for users, too. Don’t overlook that. Everything’s a trade off.
• pentae 7y ago
  And this is why I stopped using Adobe. Unfortunately, they've made so much more money milking their users than the customers they've lost so cloud stays.
• jpalomaki 7y ago
  On the other hand if you wanted to get in the business as a freelancer you had to put all the money in upfront. Being able to pay as you go with no long term commitments can be liberating as well.
  • pfortuny 7y ago
    So you might have both options... But companies do not seem to realise this.
• BurnGpuBurn 7y ago
  And if you've just paid your yearly prescription last week, you aren't even getting what you paid for: > You’ve charged me, when will I get my refund? >We are unable to issue refunds. Executive order 13884, orders the cessation of all activity with the entities including no sales, service, support, refunds, credits, etc. So no refunds either. Renting stuff in the cloud is just waiting to be screwed if the country you're in is on the hit list of the US government. And that's not a short list either, btw.
  • tornato7 7y ago
    That's something credit card chargebacks can be used for, at least in the US.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • diffeomorphism 7y ago
      Aren't both Visa and Mastercard US-based and thus subject to the same executive order? So chargebacks are probably also at the whim of the US.
      • AnnoyingSwede 7y ago
        That's kind of a two-way wammy.. If anyone owned money to VISA or Mastercard in Venezuela, the creditcard companies would not be able to collect those debts either?
        • chii 7y ago
          I bet your bottom dollar they will be allowed to collect.
        • beojan 7y ago
          VISA and Mastercard don't (AFAIK) lend money themselves, unlike Amex for instance.
• profalseidol 7y ago
  We should've listen to RMS about Free Software huh?
• rbanffy 7y ago
  > It's a 'brilliant' example of how these 'cloud' based services are a bad deal for the user It's a brilliant example of why proprietary software is bad for the user - how do users make sure their software doesn't have a kill switch? How do they ensure it doesn't phone home to validate their license?
• johnisgood 7y ago
  Yes, we buy access only in many cases, not the actual product that can be used offline. You rent e-books, games, movies, songs, and even photos. In many cases if your account gets deactivated (please, do not assume that it will not, it can for arbitrary reasons, be it political or anything else), you will not be able to use the product. You cannot even play single player games without running Steam. Jeez.