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To understand this perspective better, step back and ask yourself how much do you trust the US healthcare system and pharmaceutical industry to have your best i

To understand this perspective better, step back and ask yourself how much do you trust the US healthcare system and pharmaceutical industry to have your best interests as it’s top priority? Given everyone’s various degrees of lack of trust in a highly corrupt and inefficient system, it’s perhaps easier to see how people “throw the baby out with the bathwater” when it comes to understanding science & medicine relative to the industries that profit from their corrupt establishment. If you don’t trust the messenger, how can you trust the message?

Dumblydorr 7y ago
Or is it more about being corrupted by false information on social media? I know some anti vaxxers and it feels charitable to them to say its because they analyzed and studied healthcare and therefore mistrust its vaccines. Rather, the occams razor is that they are just wrong and misled. They got into anti vax propaganda on FB or elsewhere, its straight misinformation, feeling of parental superiority, and conspiracy thinking. Given they hold numerous false views about vaccines like risks with autism and arsenic, its clearly bad information that is virally infecting people via social media. And downvoted for disagreeing civilly, have to love it, is this reddit?
- dmix 7y ago
  I find it weird how everyone wants to blame social media for all of our problems. Like there wasn't dumb pseudoscience and conspiracies being spread constantly and fringe political groups before Twitter. I have a feeling it's because it's an obvious change so everyone blames the surface level platforms (like they blamed TV and video games in the past). Which then offers them an easy "solution" to censor our way out of them as a panacea and then they can blame the tech companies and regulators and politicians for not “doing something” to make humans less dumb. Editorializing hundreds of millions of people’s daily thoughts and opinions on our way to utopia!
  - JeanMarcS 7y ago
    I think it’s more about speed. The speed of spreading information, true or false, in social medias. And sadly my own experience suggests that false informations spread way faster.
- wozniacki 7y ago
  How would you then explain well-to-do parents -- not to mention with reputations to protect -- coming out in opposition to the way vaccines are administered and the current vaccine regime in general? [1] [2] What do they possibly have to gain from taking these adversarial positions in such hotly contested issues? Is it really possible that they are grossly misinformed too? These people have the net worth to wholly forsake raising their kids here and picking some foreign domicile that offers them choice in these vaccination issues. [1] Robert De Niro and RFK Jr. have joined forces to push vaccine nonsense https://www.vox.com/2017/2/15/14622632/robert-de-niro-rfk-jr-vaccine-press-conference https://www.vox.com/2017/2/15/14622632/robert-de-niro-rfk-jr... [2] Jessica Biel Weighs In on Vaccine Fight, Drawing Fierce Pushback https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/us/jessica-biel-anti-vaxx-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/us/jessica-biel-anti-vaxx...
  - ianai 7y ago
    I was particularly annoyed when I found out vaccines sometimes use Aluminium to kick up the immune system. I don’t know how widespread the use was or is, but that certainly didn’t help. I don’t want a heavy metal added to my body...edit-see my comment below, this is false There’s a certain power and thus seduction to just claiming you know something other people don’t know. There will always be dissension for the sake of dissent.
    - hhas01 7y ago
      Aluminium is a “heavy metal”? Delete your account, you scientific illiterate.
    - ianai 7y ago
      Correction/TIL-per google, aluminum does eventually get removed from the body. Now I know.
      - arbitrary_name 7y ago
        Unfortunately, you didn’t check whether you opinion had any basis in fact prior to sharing it. That is part of the problem. At least you are willing to acknowledge it, but most aren’t. So here we are.
- spaginal 7y ago
  Did social media cause the distrust, or did the distrust already exist and social media simply validated those concerns when they saw many others shared the same concerns? It is easy to blame this on Facebook or Twitter, it feels neat and concise. The reality is the concerns already existed outside social media, and the medical community and companies were not addressing these concerns adequately. Hence, we are where we are at now.
  - base698 7y ago
    The medium is the message. TV news results in news becoming pageant hair, red dresses, and flag waving graphics. TV changed what it meant to be informed and the end state was what we have now. It's easy to see that the social medium will and did change the message. It also changes what it means to be informed, but in a different way than TV did. If we are the media does that mean it changes the form of what it means to be person and social life?
scottLobster 7y ago
This. Back when I was in middle school learning about what a reliable source was and wasn't, major newspapers were taught as citation-worthy. I wasn't allowed to cite my textbook, but I could cite the New York Times. I still respect the New York Times but even they've jumped the gun so many times recently it's hard not to question. If I was less educated and didn't understand the economic/social forces driving them and how to account for that I'd probably just write them off entirely as many have done. Same goes for government agencies and the medical establishment. People have literally been killed, sometimes slowly and painfully on account of their corrupt advice. Edit: Lot of down-votes all of a sudden. For the record I'm not endorsing anti-vaxxers. Just saying in a world where skepticism of institutions is rightly warranted many will take it too far.
dekhn 7y ago
as a person who has worked in pharma and knows many company-leaders in that space, I gotta say it's painful to read things like this. Many of us are in this business because we thought it would help people, and many of the reasons we can't get things done are due to systemic problems in human health care, not because the leadership is grubbing as much money as it can.
- wozniacki 7y ago
  Well its hard to buy that line of thought when you have widespread rule flouting to fix prices and worse.[1] [1] 60 minutes : Generic drug makers accused of price fixing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZAOvcHlsnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZAOvcHlsnY
  - dekhn 7y ago
    I don't consider interviews with prosecutors about allegations to be factual sources of criticism. Interestingly, nearly all drug companies have compassionate use programs that get high cost drugs to poor people. Funny how the articles rarely mention these programs! Note: there certainly are unethical players in this field, but it's still painful when you're an ethical player in this field, to hear people throw accusations that don't have all the internal context. Again, there are massive systemic barriers to making higher quality drugs that are effective- both against disease, and in terms of cost. The government could go a long way to changing laws to achieve this.
mft_ 7y ago
I think you’re giving them too much credit. I don’t think it’s based in science, or distrust of a “corrupt“ or untrustworthy system. It seems to be a combination of cult-like group-think, misplaced parental emotions, and social media-driven fear-mongering, all brought together by a determinedly anti-intellectual anti-science stance.
- ianai 7y ago
  The people in my life who are in this same category also clearly want to “know something no one else knows.” Saying no to something mainstream gives them the ability to “be above” the rest of us who follow the mainstream. It can be a kind of comfort in their circumstances.
- spaginal 7y ago
  You aren't giving them enough credit. If you want to solve a problem between two groups, understanding the underlying rational for their decisions is prudent and productive. Simply claiming they are idiots because you can't make the argument, doesn't solve the issue or push things any closer to a resolution. Think of it this way, there may be actual issues with vaccines that aren't being addressed because the current legal and political environment protects the vaccine companies from litigation and consequences. You also have a group think around vaccines that says they are all good, no matter what, take every shot on the schedule they tell you to take without question, they can't possibly be wrong or bad. This presents a problem in the debate also. What if the concerned parents only response to these issues is to stop taking the vaccines because concerns aren't being addressed? This would be a good time for everyone to step back and start having a discussion instead of shaming and flinging barbs.
- takcjsoan 7y ago
  Naw you’re wrong. I grew up unvaccinated, and for my parents it’s 100% a distrust of the pharma companies and modern medicine, and it’s really hard to blame them. The system is absolute shit, there are more bad actors than good actors -or the bad actors have overwhelmed the system in the US. I know they were wrong on the vaccine stance, but I do think their viewpoints are correct about most of modern medicine and I’m happy for the healthy criticism of it I have, in part due to them.
TYPE_FASTER 7y ago
>how much do you trust the US healthcare system and pharmaceutical industry More than I trust myself to diagnose and treat medical issues.

Dumblydorr 7y ago

Or is it more about being corrupted by false information on social media? I know some anti vaxxers and it feels charitable to them to say its because they analyzed and studied healthcare and therefore mistrust its vaccines. Rather, the occams razor is that they are just wrong and misled. They got into anti vax propaganda on FB or elsewhere, its straight misinformation, feeling of parental superiority, and conspiracy thinking. Given they hold numerous false views about vaccines like risks with autism and arsenic, its clearly bad information that is virally infecting people via social media. And downvoted for disagreeing civilly, have to love it, is this reddit?

dmix 7y ago
I find it weird how everyone wants to blame social media for all of our problems. Like there wasn't dumb pseudoscience and conspiracies being spread constantly and fringe political groups before Twitter. I have a feeling it's because it's an obvious change so everyone blames the surface level platforms (like they blamed TV and video games in the past). Which then offers them an easy "solution" to censor our way out of them as a panacea and then they can blame the tech companies and regulators and politicians for not “doing something” to make humans less dumb. Editorializing hundreds of millions of people’s daily thoughts and opinions on our way to utopia!
- JeanMarcS 7y ago
  I think it’s more about speed. The speed of spreading information, true or false, in social medias. And sadly my own experience suggests that false informations spread way faster.
wozniacki 7y ago
How would you then explain well-to-do parents -- not to mention with reputations to protect -- coming out in opposition to the way vaccines are administered and the current vaccine regime in general? [1] [2] What do they possibly have to gain from taking these adversarial positions in such hotly contested issues? Is it really possible that they are grossly misinformed too? These people have the net worth to wholly forsake raising their kids here and picking some foreign domicile that offers them choice in these vaccination issues. [1] Robert De Niro and RFK Jr. have joined forces to push vaccine nonsense https://www.vox.com/2017/2/15/14622632/robert-de-niro-rfk-jr-vaccine-press-conference https://www.vox.com/2017/2/15/14622632/robert-de-niro-rfk-jr... [2] Jessica Biel Weighs In on Vaccine Fight, Drawing Fierce Pushback https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/us/jessica-biel-anti-vaxx-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/us/jessica-biel-anti-vaxx...
- ianai 7y ago
  I was particularly annoyed when I found out vaccines sometimes use Aluminium to kick up the immune system. I don’t know how widespread the use was or is, but that certainly didn’t help. I don’t want a heavy metal added to my body...edit-see my comment below, this is false There’s a certain power and thus seduction to just claiming you know something other people don’t know. There will always be dissension for the sake of dissent.
  - hhas01 7y ago
    Aluminium is a “heavy metal”? Delete your account, you scientific illiterate.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Correction/TIL-per google, aluminum does eventually get removed from the body. Now I know.
    - arbitrary_name 7y ago
      Unfortunately, you didn’t check whether you opinion had any basis in fact prior to sharing it. That is part of the problem. At least you are willing to acknowledge it, but most aren’t. So here we are.
spaginal 7y ago
Did social media cause the distrust, or did the distrust already exist and social media simply validated those concerns when they saw many others shared the same concerns? It is easy to blame this on Facebook or Twitter, it feels neat and concise. The reality is the concerns already existed outside social media, and the medical community and companies were not addressing these concerns adequately. Hence, we are where we are at now.
- base698 7y ago
  The medium is the message. TV news results in news becoming pageant hair, red dresses, and flag waving graphics. TV changed what it meant to be informed and the end state was what we have now. It's easy to see that the social medium will and did change the message. It also changes what it means to be informed, but in a different way than TV did. If we are the media does that mean it changes the form of what it means to be person and social life?

scottLobster 7y ago

This. Back when I was in middle school learning about what a reliable source was and wasn't, major newspapers were taught as citation-worthy. I wasn't allowed to cite my textbook, but I could cite the New York Times. I still respect the New York Times but even they've jumped the gun so many times recently it's hard not to question. If I was less educated and didn't understand the economic/social forces driving them and how to account for that I'd probably just write them off entirely as many have done. Same goes for government agencies and the medical establishment. People have literally been killed, sometimes slowly and painfully on account of their corrupt advice. Edit: Lot of down-votes all of a sudden. For the record I'm not endorsing anti-vaxxers. Just saying in a world where skepticism of institutions is rightly warranted many will take it too far.

dekhn 7y ago

as a person who has worked in pharma and knows many company-leaders in that space, I gotta say it's painful to read things like this. Many of us are in this business because we thought it would help people, and many of the reasons we can't get things done are due to systemic problems in human health care, not because the leadership is grubbing as much money as it can.

wozniacki 7y ago
Well its hard to buy that line of thought when you have widespread rule flouting to fix prices and worse.[1] [1] 60 minutes : Generic drug makers accused of price fixing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZAOvcHlsnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZAOvcHlsnY
- dekhn 7y ago
  I don't consider interviews with prosecutors about allegations to be factual sources of criticism. Interestingly, nearly all drug companies have compassionate use programs that get high cost drugs to poor people. Funny how the articles rarely mention these programs! Note: there certainly are unethical players in this field, but it's still painful when you're an ethical player in this field, to hear people throw accusations that don't have all the internal context. Again, there are massive systemic barriers to making higher quality drugs that are effective- both against disease, and in terms of cost. The government could go a long way to changing laws to achieve this.

mft_ 7y ago

I think you’re giving them too much credit. I don’t think it’s based in science, or distrust of a “corrupt“ or untrustworthy system. It seems to be a combination of cult-like group-think, misplaced parental emotions, and social media-driven fear-mongering, all brought together by a determinedly anti-intellectual anti-science stance.

ianai 7y ago
The people in my life who are in this same category also clearly want to “know something no one else knows.” Saying no to something mainstream gives them the ability to “be above” the rest of us who follow the mainstream. It can be a kind of comfort in their circumstances.
spaginal 7y ago
You aren't giving them enough credit. If you want to solve a problem between two groups, understanding the underlying rational for their decisions is prudent and productive. Simply claiming they are idiots because you can't make the argument, doesn't solve the issue or push things any closer to a resolution. Think of it this way, there may be actual issues with vaccines that aren't being addressed because the current legal and political environment protects the vaccine companies from litigation and consequences. You also have a group think around vaccines that says they are all good, no matter what, take every shot on the schedule they tell you to take without question, they can't possibly be wrong or bad. This presents a problem in the debate also. What if the concerned parents only response to these issues is to stop taking the vaccines because concerns aren't being addressed? This would be a good time for everyone to step back and start having a discussion instead of shaming and flinging barbs.
takcjsoan 7y ago
Naw you’re wrong. I grew up unvaccinated, and for my parents it’s 100% a distrust of the pharma companies and modern medicine, and it’s really hard to blame them. The system is absolute shit, there are more bad actors than good actors -or the bad actors have overwhelmed the system in the US. I know they were wrong on the vaccine stance, but I do think their viewpoints are correct about most of modern medicine and I’m happy for the healthy criticism of it I have, in part due to them.

TYPE_FASTER 7y ago

>how much do you trust the US healthcare system and pharmaceutical industry More than I trust myself to diagnose and treat medical issues.