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Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands
- mxschumacher 7y agoI don't think this should be on HN.
- thepangolino 7y agoI think there’s an interesting discussion to be made around this topic. The only reason it perhaps should be in here is the page keeps on reloading on mobile.
- mhandley 7y agoIf a topic is voted up, then pretty much by definition, people here find it interesting. I did. Anyone interesting in how our nascent efforts to combact climate change are progressing around the world should be interested in how quickly electric cars are being adopted.
- anonytrary 7y agoClearly, people here are interested in this information and want to discuss it (based on the votes/comments). Whether or not I think it "should" be here is irrelevant.
- ganomi 7y agoAt least give a reason for your opinion! Otherwise you are just a troll: On your website you preach long investments in oil and gas.
- mogadsheu 7y ago>The Dutch numbers are inflated by lavish incentives. In the next fiscal year, the incentives in the UK will be even more lavish. Norway was an early adopter of large subsidies/driving perks for EVs. It looks like other countries are following suit. This obviously bodes well for Tesla—-I wonder if anybody has insight about what this could mean for Chinese EVs if they make it to Europe.
- jorams 7y ago> It looks like other countries are following suit. Actually, a major reason for the spike is that the incentives are about to be dialed back in the new year.
- ZeroGravitas 7y agoWhich would be bad news if electric cars were fundamentally more expensive than the alternatives, but since they only started out more expensive due to low production numbers and now can compete on their own, it's a staggering success for short term government intervention in markets, similar to Germany and China's early support for PV, with a massive ROI for the specific countries and the world in general.
- tyfon 7y agoThere are basically no subsidies for EVs in Norway, only tax relief. The government is not paying anyone to use EVs. Some municipals have free public charging stations but that's up to the locals to decide.
- martinald 7y agoTax relief is pretty much exactly the same as subsidies though. If the Norwegian govt didn't bother doing EV tax relief, they would get another x billion NOK in taxes sitting in the treasury. It's no different to giving the billions of NOK as a discount on the purchase price like other countries.
- tyfon 7y agoThere is a huge difference. In one instance they government pays direct money to make something cheaper. In the other they do not collect tax on something. The argument that the "could have had" the money is moot because they never had it in the first place like with subsidies. It's like saying the US government is subsidising iphones since they could have had 100% sales tax on them but do not. And lastly, the tax they collect on the ICE cars is a pollution and/or CO2 tax so it is not applicable to EVs anyway as they do not have an indirect cost to society in form of pollution. I think they should tax ICE cars even more and same with petrol and CO2 release in general.
- jbverschoor 7y agoTaxes will increase x2 in 2020 when leasing an electric car.
- the-dude 7y agoMore accurate : the EV tax deduction will be dialed back. There has been some controversy about the deduction as it has totalled way more than projected. And it is interpreted by some ( me too ) as a tax relief for rich people.
- sdan 7y agoNot surprising given the heavy taxes on gas cars and the Model 3's accuracy on the luxury/price/features sweet spot.
- ZeroGravitas 7y agoNot surprising due to electric cars being fundamentally better, in several important ways, than the alternative and so beginning to climb the S curve to inevitable total domination of the market. That's the underlying reality that drives both the sales, the incentives and Tesla's pricing and product decisions.
- TicklishTiger 7y agoThe one thing I really can not get over with Tesla is the dashboard. That giant screen that looks so misplaced. Cars always used to be the pinnacle of thought out design. And Tesla is supposed to be catering the more stylish crowd I think. I wonder how they decided to place a standard screen to the right of the driver. It will be interesting to see if other car manufacturers will adopt this design decision. Then it would be a bit like in the smartphone world, where ugly camera bumps on the back are the norm now. There are almost no physical products that you can not get in a nice design these days. Everything seems to exist in perfectly designed versions. Headphones, tables, knifes, socks, glasses, lamps, bed sheets ... It's fascinating that phones are the one type of product that fell off a cliff. Will cars be next?
- Neil44 7y agoDidn’t someone call for the patent office to be closed in the 1800’s because everything had already been invented?
- ddebernardy 7y agoNo, the story is apocryphal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_Duell#Everything_that_can_be_invented_has_been_invented https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_Duell#Everythi...
- vinay427 7y agoIt may have fallen off of your cliff, but not mine and apparently not a lot of other people's. I will be the first (or I guess second) to admit that some controls should be hard buttons for ease of use while looking at the road. This is something that I hope they improve on, though the steering wheel scroll wheels are already often geared for the appropriate context-dependent function. However, Tesla manages to hide nearly all of the other car's functions behind fewer layers of menus than in modern BMWs or similar, in my experience, making it far easier to access the more arcane items. For example, adjusting the auto high-beam sensitivity or detailed HVAC preferences seem a lot easier on a touchscreen where buttons are laid out logically enough.
- 7y ago
- jpalomaki 7y agoNote that the chart is about the specific models. For example VW and Ford have two models on this list.
- Yuval_Halevi 7y agoAs someone who lived in Amsterdam for one year (I'm originally from Israel) I was extremely impressed by how the government create a solid infrastructure for electric car owners to charge their car batteries.
- vinay427 7y agoHmm, how does this work? I imagine the government isn't in the business of operating charging stations, so it is some combination of subsidies and regulatory easing, or something more? Do they benefit Tesla Superchargers or have other EV charging standards capitalized on it as well?
- Yuval_Halevi 7y agoYou can find every this everywhere https://imgur.com/a/yH2qnnR https://imgur.com/a/yH2qnnR It's not my car... I had humble bikes :)
- Iv 7y ago> I imagine the government isn't in the business of operating charging stations Why not? Governments take care of a lot of public infrastructure, either directly through public workers or by paying private companies to do the work for them
- vinay427 7y agoI understand that a government can do this. I'm saying that I assumed this isn't the case here based on what I know about the Netherlands, fossil fuel stations, etc. Do you have information claiming otherwise?
- craigsmansion 7y agoTesla also has a final assembly plant in the Netherlands[1], nominally making the brand "native" (like Volvo before them). That usually results in better brand recognition and higher sales as well. I recently saw a post on social media where someone couldn't go to the dentist because the car was updating software. From the discussion I understand there is a "grace period" of 2 weeks before automatic updates, and that the software is needed for advanced features. It was also mentioned that basic braking and steering functionality were also dependent on updatable software, making it unsafe to use it as a regular car when a software update is occurring. Does anyone have more information on this? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_facilities_in_Tilburg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_facilities_in_Tilburg
- mmsimanga 7y agoAs an African I really want an electric car that just has a speedometer, airbags, range meter and nothing else. I can do without air condition, outside temperature sensor ... We already struggling to fix the modern petrol and diesel cars full of electronics.
- markdown 7y agoEven the old 3rd world favourite, the Toyota Hilux, has gone over to the dark side and become much harder to repair with all the fancy shit they stick in them now.
- mmsimanga 7y agoI know exactly what you mean. Now we forced to go the dealers who charge exorbitant prices for simple things like replacing a light. Sigh I miss the old days when you just pulled out the globe and asked for a replacement.
- mcv 7y agoI thought it was the Toyota Land Cruiser that was the old favourite. When I was in Mali (in 2006), those things were everywhere. Waiting for the ferry across the Niger at Timbuctoo was a long line of Land Cruisers and a single Hilux. Along the way (not really a way, actually, but everybody was going roughly the same route) we encountered tons more Land Cruisers. Only a single Mitsubishi 4WD, which had broken down. Rumour had it that if your Land Cruiser broke down in the desert, you could probably buy parts from a guy on a camel. But that's not going to be much use if they're getting harder to repair.
- tcmb 7y agoI live in an apartment complex in Berlin. We have a parking garage that belongs to the complex. Unfortunately the housing company does not allow installation of a wallbox in the garage, even if I paid for it myself. The housing company is owned by the municipality. Large-scale adoption of electric cars is unrealistic when the majority of people have nowhere to charge it.
- hnarn 7y agoAnecdotally, around 40% of the electricity in Germany was generated from coal in 2018, but in january 2019, a group of federal and state leaders as well as industry representatives, environmentalists, and scientists made an agreement to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038.[1] Just as in many other parts of the world, expanding electrical consumption through electric vehicles does not make sense if we also don't actively decrease our dependency on fossil fuel. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Coal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Coal_power
- _ph_ 7y agoAt 40% coal provided electricity, electric cars are already way less poluting than combustion engines. Actually even just being powered by an efficient diesel generator would put them on a roughly equal level. So only 40% coal is already a benefit. But of course, we should get rid of our coal plants as quickly as possible. That is the one rather low hanging fruit in reducing the carbon footprint. And I think the 2038 number won't stand, the ramp-down will be far quicker now that climate change has finally gotten more awareness. So, while not reaching the optimal numbers right now, any electric car bought today will still drive when the coal usage for the grid will be greatly reduced if not completely stopped. Any combustion engined car bought today isn't only worse in emissions already, it won't change, while the electric car gets "cleaner". Also, one should not underestimate the positive effect have on the rollout of reneweables as they can be charged at different times of the day, depending in the supply of reneweable energy.
- _ph_ 7y ago
- skrebbel 7y agoI suspect this is primarily because the tax for leasing an EV is going to double by January (from 4% to 8%, vs 22% for ICEs, but still, double). So people whose work perks includes a lease car and who have been considering electrical, are all getting one quickly now. And the Model 3 is one of the better EVs on the market, so there you go. Model 3 sales in NL will drop tremendously in 2020.
- henkslaaf 7y agoI am at this crossroards. Either I spend the money now, before December, and drive cheaply or I wait another five years.
- martijn9612 7y agoYou're probably too late, the ordering date to get a model 3 for this year has (almost) passed. They're saying that the order has to be confirmed before today 22:00 (oct 6), otherwise Tesla cannot guarantee the 2019 delivery date. https://www.mistergreen.nl/tesla-model-3-lease https://www.mistergreen.nl/tesla-model-3-lease
- goodcanadian 7y agoI'm ignorant of Dutch law, so I may be off base, but I find taxes usually apply as of the date of the contract, not the date of the delivery. So, if you have a firm order, you are probably fine.
- martijn9612 7y agoI'm pretty sure that here in The Netherlands it applies to the date the vehicle receives a license plate. The only think to remark is that ?two? years ago the same situation occurred with the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, thousands were ordered and the end of the year was approaching. A couple of people worked around the clock to register them all before the 1st of January to ensure the tax benefits (At least that is what I heard at that time).
- baxtr 7y agoI worked for a large telco ten years back. When they wanted to look into the future they always looked at the Netherlands, because they were usually 3-5 yrs ahead. Back then they realized that WhatsApp would kill all their SMS revenues. However, they never acted on this insight...
- timwaagh 7y agoat my (dutch) company, a relatively large number of employees is able to get this car under the company lease program. which means they don't cost a thing, except for the increase in income tax which is much lower for electric cars. even people who do not care about environmental things at all get it because it's fast, its sleek and its easy to operate.
- agumonkey 7y agotables are turning
- tyfon 7y ago> even people who do not care about environmental things at all get it because it's fast, its sleek and its easy to operate. This is the stated goal of Tesla. Make people buy electric cars because they're better, not because of the environment. Then the environmental stuff will follow but you can never convince the general population to give up comfort for the greater good.
- socialdemocrat 7y agoTesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leafs, BMW i3, e-Golf, Teslas, Ionic, you name it going around all the time. What is interesting to observe is how it just accelerates. The more normal it gets to drive electric the more people jump onboard. A lot of people are reluctant to try something entirely different. But then they drive in their friends electric car or sit in an electric cab etc and it all starts to look really normal.
- xyzzyz 7y agoThat’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping onboard tax incentives train.
- 4gotunameagain 7y agoIt's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.
- dogma1138 7y agoI don’t think you realize how much cars cost in Norway the country has an effective tax rate on cars that is over 100%. A new Ford Focus with all taxes and fees will cost you around $50,000, the base model without fees alone starts at around $35,000 (320,000 NOK). That’s a $12-13K car in the US, a Tesla on the otherhand might cost you even lower than the US sticker price under some circumstances, especially on the officially refurbished ones. Add other benefits on top of that and the fact that petrol in Norway costs $7 per gallon, money is the pretty much the only reason why people buy Tesla’s and other EVs at such high rates in Norway.
- spodek 7y agoGiven Holland and that the site is for clean technology, I'm curious its fraction of total vehicle sales, including bicycles.
- amelius 7y agoAt what point will it become a safety issue if X% of cars in a multi-story garage are electric, considering both the fire-safety of batteries and their weight?
- lazyjones 7y agoNever, because ICE cars are also fire hazards and all garages must be designed to accommodate that.
- echohack5 7y agoAt what point will it become a safety issue if X% of cars in a multi-story garage contain explosive liquids, considering the fire-safety of gasoline and oil, and it's likelihood to leak?
- steelframe 7y ago> considering both the fire-safety Some people may jump on you about the fire-safety of Tesla cars (or BEVs in general), but I want to get ahead of that with a link to the Highway Loss Data Institute's December 2018 report for 2016-2018 motor vehicles, where the Tesla Model X had a RCF (Relative Claim Frequency) of 192, the second-worse score for vehicles in its class, and the Tesla Model S had a RCF of 140, the worst in its class. Because the report covers model years 2016-2018, the Model 3 wasn't included in the analysis. Regardless, the point about the relative aptitude of Tesla-manufactured BEVs to catch fire in non-crash scenarios is well made by that report. https://www.iihs.org/media/c93b98d8-6a7d-44a1-810e-4468ec539e05/uIu4tg/HLDI%20Research/Fire%20losses/HLDI_FireLosses_1218.pdf https://www.iihs.org/media/c93b98d8-6a7d-44a1-810e-4468ec539...
- kjksf 7y agoThere's lies, damn lies and statistics. Yes, Model X (at 192) is second highest in its class. It's also better than any passenger car in top 10 (lowest at 204) and better than any pickup truck in top 10 (lowest at 205). So if we care about fire safety, we should replace every passenger car and pick up with the "terrible" Model X. Also worth noting that, to my knowledge, there wasn't a single non-crash fire in Model 3, which points to a dramatic improvement in battery safety from Model S/X to Model 3, even from the baseline of "much better than most passenger cars and pick up trucks".
- mindcrash 7y agoSomeone who lives in the Netlerhands here: This probably has something to do with the fact the discounted additional tax liability for leased Teslas will go away soon and everybody planning to lease a Tesla from that moment will need to pay more taxes. So everybody who wants a Tesla is signing leasing contracts for them like crazy right now.
- patfla 7y agoTesla can now, more or less, build cars in volume and that's great. The problem is profitability and, at present levels of profitability, the current stock price is not at all justified.
- rainyMammoth 7y agoThe elephant in the room is that most of those sales would never happen without the tax incentives. A model 3 without incentives doesn't make any sense for 95% of buyers. Those tax incentives are yet another way for middle//upper rich families to have the government (and taxpayer money) pay for their toys through loopholes. I really don't see why their should be a special tax incentive on green vehicle. Tax gas more if you want to work on global warming
- muzika 7y agoIn US most nodel 3 buyers don’t get any significant insentives, and for many it’s the first new car they ever bought. Average Tesla buyer is far from being rich.
- et2o 7y agoEven with the tax incentive the Model 3 doesn't make perfect economic sense. Then again, neither does any new car over a used Honda Civic. There are very legitimate reasons for the government to incentivize EVs, even if only middle or upper class people buy them.
- jacquesm 7y agoAs soon as the tax situation normalizes this will drop back down again. There is simply a limited time for people to act and get the full benefit of buying an electric vehicle. This situation happens over and over again in different places in the world whenever a particular tax advantage is about to end.
- gok 7y agoThat was also expected in the US but sales are up as the incentives have phased out. (BEVs in general, not just Tesla)
- rootusrootus 7y agoWell, the price has been dropping as well. I just bought a Tesla for about 55k that was 72k a couple years ago. Even with less of a tax break it's still a much better value.
- 99chrisbard 7y agoEveryone should be driving electric-bicycles. Cars only for special occasions.
- Jsharm 7y agoWhats the UK incentive coming next year they are referring to?