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As a long-time desktop Linux user, I don't quite agree with this. The default for me long before iOS existed was to install software from my distribution's repo

by Zak 7y ago

As a long-time desktop Linux user, I don't quite agree with this. The default for me long before iOS existed was to install software from my distribution's repository. Sideloading software not included in the repository was often a technically onerous process, to be repeated manually in case of updates. I had pity for users of Mac OS and Windows who had no access to such convenience. I don't think having a managed system for installing software is a bad thing at all, though I'm disappointed the big ones don't support third-party repositories. I do think there should always be an option to do it manually.

walrus01 7y ago
yes, but the difference is how high that wall is on the garden. Using an ubuntu/debian type apt based system as an example, it's quite easy and fast to 'trust' a GPG signing key for a new repository and add it if needed.
kop316 7y ago
However, the repository was for convenience. Nothing stops you from adding a new repository to install new apps. You simple have no choice with iOS on that front.
- Zak 7y ago
  You have some choice on Android though, through both sideloading and using third-party app stores like F-droid. I have a problem with iOS not allowing sideloading in a way that's viable for most applications, but I don't see having a default, managed system for installing software as a problem in itself.
  - kop316 7y ago
    Ohh I agree with Android. I just use AOSP and f-droid, and it works great
bradknowles 7y ago
There is another choice for iOS -- register as a developer, and build and install the software yourself. There's even a third party that is automating much of this process, because this is a hole that Apple will have a hard time closing. The AltStore does not require a jailbreak: https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios-app-store/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios...
- xmprt 7y ago
  That's against TOS and it's something that Apple is trying to fix. This is not a solution. It's a hack.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Doesn’t this require the person building the code to own a Mac, a potentially expensive computer? Also I recall that years ago there was a $100 fee to register as an iOS developer, though I’ve no idea if that continues to be the case.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Yes, it does require access to MacOS, and payment to Apple to register as a dev - even aside from having to build apps yourself, this is not a reasonable solution to escaping the walled garden
    - monocularvision 7y ago
      It doesn’t require a Mac or the $99 developer fee. You can use a free developer account and a non-Mac as the server.
      - GordonS 7y ago
        Maybe we're talking about 2 different things here; to build for iOS, you need Xcode, and for Xcode you need MacOS and a dev subscription.
  - 7y ago
driverdan 7y ago
You've always been able to add additional package manager repos in Linux with a few lines of config. Not true for iOS.
amelius 7y ago
You are confusing the availability of an automated software installation process with the possibility of installing software of choice.
superkuh 7y ago
I'm also a long-time desktop Linux user. Since 2003. I'd say that my average linux desktop computer has about half and half repo and non-repo software. I can't imagine limiting myself to just what was in the repos. There's only a tiny fraction of software in those even including personal repos like ubuntu's PPA system.
- bisby 7y ago
  With Arch / AUR even non-repo software feels like repo software. However, on my ubuntu installs lately, I've found myself having to go with non-repo software for things that are in the repos. Because the repo version is just so far out of date. Version freezes with only security updates means lots of old software. I was loading my Arch configs on ubuntu and things were breaking. Update to current stable version and suddenly things work again. If i was stuck with repos, I would have just not used ubuntu at all.
  - stevekemp2 7y ago
    I have a few applications which are installed from source, and as you say a couple of things installed beneath /opt. Currently that is: Firefox, golang, Arduino studio and Calibre.
kevincox 7y ago
I am mostly in agreement but I just want to highlight that having a curated store that is super easy isn't the problem. The problem is not allowing other software. Sure, on Linux installing third party software isn't as simple as your package manager but it is possible and not made more difficult than necessary.
koolba 7y ago
The huge difference is that you can update or add package repos to get the best of all worlds. Load whatever you want, from wherever you trust, whenever you want.
- jrockway 7y ago
  I might be scarred for life as a long time Debian Testing user, but I found that this worked approximately never. There was always some sort of dependency that was only in Unstable, and installing that would cause libc to need to be upgraded, and then your entire system broke. Even if it wasn't that severe, it probably didn't work. Windows, Mac, and iPhone users certainly don't have the problem where if they install FooUtility, it causes their computer to not boot anymore. (Unless FooUtility is malware, of course, which I didn't get a lot of installing out of Debian's repositories. Except of course that weak keygen bug... Hmm.) (Of course, the underlying problem is that shared libraries are actually a bad idea. They were a hack for days when storage and memory was very expensive. But for some reason, Linux still uses them. New languages just compile everything into a statically linked binary, which is wonderful. I can write a Go program on my Windows machine, and with one command, compile it for a Raspberry Pi. Copy it over and it just works. Snap is also a thing that appears to work well.)
  - nine_k 7y ago
    You can package software on Linux with specific libraries: see Flatpak and Snap. You can manage multiple versions of shard libraries as needed by different applications: see Nix.
    - noisem4ker 7y ago
      Nix's is such an obvious and elegant solution to me that I wonder how it hasn't got much more traction.
      - psanford 7y ago
        I suspect a big part of it is people don't want to learn a subset of haskell to in order to effectively use their package manager.
SN76477 7y ago
As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone. Sure there are other apps but it’s just too much variety. What is out there is good and works. Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it.
- userbinator 7y ago
  Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it. That applies to freedom too.
- mrep 7y ago
  Main use case I have is to side load a tethering app because the carriers have monopolized that functionality into one solution with a rediculous fee in the app stores. Cannot stop me from side loading though on Android.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone. No one wants to force you to use other stores.

by Zak 7y ago

walrus01 7y ago

yes, but the difference is how high that wall is on the garden. Using an ubuntu/debian type apt based system as an example, it's quite easy and fast to 'trust' a GPG signing key for a new repository and add it if needed.

kop316 7y ago

However, the repository was for convenience. Nothing stops you from adding a new repository to install new apps. You simple have no choice with iOS on that front.

Zak 7y ago
You have some choice on Android though, through both sideloading and using third-party app stores like F-droid. I have a problem with iOS not allowing sideloading in a way that's viable for most applications, but I don't see having a default, managed system for installing software as a problem in itself.
- kop316 7y ago
  Ohh I agree with Android. I just use AOSP and f-droid, and it works great

bradknowles 7y ago

There is another choice for iOS -- register as a developer, and build and install the software yourself. There's even a third party that is automating much of this process, because this is a hole that Apple will have a hard time closing. The AltStore does not require a jailbreak: https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios-app-store/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios...

xmprt 7y ago
That's against TOS and it's something that Apple is trying to fix. This is not a solution. It's a hack.
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
Doesn’t this require the person building the code to own a Mac, a potentially expensive computer? Also I recall that years ago there was a $100 fee to register as an iOS developer, though I’ve no idea if that continues to be the case.
- GordonS 7y ago
  Yes, it does require access to MacOS, and payment to Apple to register as a dev - even aside from having to build apps yourself, this is not a reasonable solution to escaping the walled garden
  - monocularvision 7y ago
    It doesn’t require a Mac or the $99 developer fee. You can use a free developer account and a non-Mac as the server.
    - GordonS 7y ago
      Maybe we're talking about 2 different things here; to build for iOS, you need Xcode, and for Xcode you need MacOS and a dev subscription.
- 7y ago

driverdan 7y ago

You've always been able to add additional package manager repos in Linux with a few lines of config. Not true for iOS.

amelius 7y ago

You are confusing the availability of an automated software installation process with the possibility of installing software of choice.

superkuh 7y ago

I'm also a long-time desktop Linux user. Since 2003. I'd say that my average linux desktop computer has about half and half repo and non-repo software. I can't imagine limiting myself to just what was in the repos. There's only a tiny fraction of software in those even including personal repos like ubuntu's PPA system.

bisby 7y ago
With Arch / AUR even non-repo software feels like repo software. However, on my ubuntu installs lately, I've found myself having to go with non-repo software for things that are in the repos. Because the repo version is just so far out of date. Version freezes with only security updates means lots of old software. I was loading my Arch configs on ubuntu and things were breaking. Update to current stable version and suddenly things work again. If i was stuck with repos, I would have just not used ubuntu at all.
- stevekemp2 7y ago
  I have a few applications which are installed from source, and as you say a couple of things installed beneath /opt. Currently that is: Firefox, golang, Arduino studio and Calibre.

kevincox 7y ago

I am mostly in agreement but I just want to highlight that having a curated store that is super easy isn't the problem. The problem is not allowing other software. Sure, on Linux installing third party software isn't as simple as your package manager but it is possible and not made more difficult than necessary.

koolba 7y ago

The huge difference is that you can update or add package repos to get the best of all worlds. Load whatever you want, from wherever you trust, whenever you want.

jrockway 7y ago
I might be scarred for life as a long time Debian Testing user, but I found that this worked approximately never. There was always some sort of dependency that was only in Unstable, and installing that would cause libc to need to be upgraded, and then your entire system broke. Even if it wasn't that severe, it probably didn't work. Windows, Mac, and iPhone users certainly don't have the problem where if they install FooUtility, it causes their computer to not boot anymore. (Unless FooUtility is malware, of course, which I didn't get a lot of installing out of Debian's repositories. Except of course that weak keygen bug... Hmm.) (Of course, the underlying problem is that shared libraries are actually a bad idea. They were a hack for days when storage and memory was very expensive. But for some reason, Linux still uses them. New languages just compile everything into a statically linked binary, which is wonderful. I can write a Go program on my Windows machine, and with one command, compile it for a Raspberry Pi. Copy it over and it just works. Snap is also a thing that appears to work well.)
- nine_k 7y ago
  You can package software on Linux with specific libraries: see Flatpak and Snap. You can manage multiple versions of shard libraries as needed by different applications: see Nix.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
    Nix's is such an obvious and elegant solution to me that I wonder how it hasn't got much more traction.
    - psanford 7y ago
      I suspect a big part of it is people don't want to learn a subset of haskell to in order to effectively use their package manager.

SN76477 7y ago

As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone. Sure there are other apps but it’s just too much variety. What is out there is good and works. Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it.

userbinator 7y ago
Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it. That applies to freedom too.
mrep 7y ago
Main use case I have is to side load a tethering app because the carriers have monopolized that functionality into one solution with a rediculous fee in the app stores. Cannot stop me from side loading though on Android.
anoncake 7y ago
> As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone. No one wants to force you to use other stores.