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Microsoft announces new Surface Duo phone
- yRetsyM 7y ago"Partnering with Google" - Be very interesting to see what that partnership entails.
- aminecodes 7y agoIt seems it can run Android apps.
- styx31 7y agoIt seems it runs on android (with a windows theme).
- aminecodes 7y agoTrue, I wrote that comment as I was watching the announcement live stream. It's still pretty much a prototype at this point but I hope they don't mess up that windows theme a lot.
- DanCarvajal 7y agoThey're trying to head off another YouTube on WindowsPhone fight.
- Dirlewanger 7y agoI mean, Microsoft has always had a vested interest in Android's success, given that they are paid for every Android device sold because of software patents.
- imagetic 7y agoDOA
- MBCook 7y agoWhy? If it’s running Android how is it any worse than the other folding screen Android phones? It’s not like they’re trying their own OS again.
- WorldMaker 7y agoThe opposite question applies: With so many other manufacturers building folding screen or multi-screen Android phones between now and Holiday 2020, how is Microsoft's any better? It's not like there is a lack of competitors in the Android manufacturer game. Maybe its not necessarily "dead on arrival", but at least from what has been announced so far, it doesn't yet sound competitive in what is already a terribly (and ugly) competitive hardware market. At least if Microsoft were trying their own OS again, they'd have a better statement of why they were building the hardware. Meanwhile, doesn't the market already have enough Android phones?
- rbanffy 7y agoHow many years after Apple's Knowledge Navigator?
- recursive 7y ago32 years after Knowledge Navigator. 0 years after I first heard of it.
- whywhywhywhy 7y agoIdeas mean nothing if you don't make them real
- bhauer 7y agoI'm going to pick one up regardless, but if they can bring Windows 10 X to this device, and provide a docking experience that expands to approximate a full PC, the result would be fantastic.
- aminecodes 7y agoThey already said it runs on Android, whith what looks like a heavy Microsoft like skin on top.
- bhauer 7y agoIndeed they did, but this is a device still in development, to be released late 2020. I would not be surprised if the Windows 10 X team is working to make it at least possible to run 10 X on the smaller device. I'd much prefer 10 X with an Android subsystem. But like I said, I'll pick one up regardless.
- sequence7 7y agoI'm sure it could run 10 X easily enough, the problem is the same problem that killed the Windows Phone ecosystem. No one's developing mobile/touch apps for anything other than Android and iOS. Windows has been fully touch enabled for years now but still there are almost no apps that take advantage of that, there isn't even a decent kindle app in the microsoft store. I wish this wasn't true but the truth is mobile belongs to Apple and Google and tablets belong to Apple.
- bhauer 7y agoWhich is why I'd like an Android subsystem. I want the basic UI experience and default apps to be Windows 10 X. For 90% of my phone usage, I'm using the stock apps (launcher, email, browser, calendar, etc.), and I'd prefer that to be the 10 X experience rather than Android. I want Android to feel like an app safety net, not the primary experience. But like I said before, even without that, it's still the right device for me.
- screye 7y agoIf this releases now, I will buy it instantly. That thing is going in my pocket.
- knolan 7y agoRemember the Courier? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Courier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Courier
- mc32 7y agoI remember reading something like: Exec1: does it connect to Exchange? Exec2: no. Exec1: nixed! Exec2 should have said: it will in the future!
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoGiven how badly they flubbed their entries into smartphones, I'm kind of glad they are trying again in this new form-factor. Given that it's relying on Android, it should have more staying power than before (and an app store that isn't awful).
- WorldMaker 7y agoGiven it's relying on Android now and doesn't seem to have (based on this announcement) any compelling reason to exist long term in the ugly, over-crowded OEM market of Android marketing, it's a gimmick and shouldn't have any staying power at all.
- rvz 7y agoI'm not sure if everyone forgot a day ago, but if Microsoft had just removed the offline account setting on Windows 10, what could be the likelihood that they could just enforce it in the Surface Line up, even including the Android products? Nice looking Surface lineup and hardware nevertheless, but after Microsoft removing that offline setting, I think that was a big turn off and a no deal from me for now, unless they reverse that atrocious decision to using online accounts only.
- MikusR 7y agoThey did not remove it.
- tvanantwerp 7y agoYou can still have offline accounts, but they do make it a real pain to figure out how to do it during Windows setup. I have to take PCs offline entirely to get the option now. While Microsoft is doing a lot of be more developer friendly (e.g., I love VS Code), Windows just gets more and more user hostile.
- atjamielittle 7y agoIt took almost 30 years since the kernel was released, but Microsoft is officially releasing something with a Linux based operating system. Pretty wild to think about.
- Barrin92 7y agoit's interesting how in the last few years the Microsoft and Linux/Android ecosystems seem to developer side-by-side. Personally I've replaced my last macbook with the surface and my iphone with an android phone, use mostly linux or windows with WSL these days and I see less and less apple products in particular among developers where the windows/linux combo seems to become more prevalent, at least anecdotally.
- snuxoll 7y agoThere’s the SONIC network stuff too. Though that’s not a consumer product.
- pjmlp 7y agoFrom their original stance against FOSS, yes pretty wild. From UNIX point of view, not so much, given that they were one of the first licensees for PC hardware with Xenix.
- com2kid 7y agoThey've had Linux Azure offerings for quite a few years, and famously contributed a fair bit of code to the Linux kernel to make some of that possible. They also released those Nokia branded Android devices. It is not like MS has been doing consumer hardware releases for that long or anything! It'll be interesting to see the support, IMHO one thing that keeps people (software devs and consumers) from buying into a new Android OEM that is selling an "Ecosystem" (e.g. Samsung Note) is the fear of a product line being dropped.
- WorldMaker 7y agoWSL2 is already shipping in Beta form in Windows Insider builds and includes a full Linux kernel.
- GordonS 7y ago
- EnderMB 7y agoI really hope that we see a single-screen Surface phone in the future. IMO, Microsoft have done a fantastic job with the Surface Book. If they could replicate that high-end build quality while providing a solid feature set and a clean Android build, I can't see it not selling well. Throw a headphone jack in, and I'd wait in line for it! The dual screen is interesting, but I don't see its use just yet.
- pdpi 7y agoSpeaking of the Surface Book, my aging MacBook needs replacing, and I was interested in seeing a Surface Book 3 release as an alternative. Sad it didn't materialise.
- bhauer 7y agoThe Surface Laptop 3 looks very compelling though, especially with the Ryzen option.
- pizza234 7y agoThe Surface Laptop unfortunately doesn't work as tablet. I'm very "disappointented" by the event, as it seems that the Surface Book series is dead. If this is the case, I guess that the reasoning has been that who want a powerful machine just buy a regular laptop. It's a shame for those who use the SB both as tablet and dev machine (which is the intended audience). At this point, it's not sure how the SPX will be usable as dev machine (e.g. I guess it will have relatively little memory). The vanilla SP is an alternative, but 12.3" is small for me (and can't imagine for those who own a 15" SB).
- EnderMB 7y agoI'm interested in how many people actually use their Surface Book as a tablet. I know a load of people with the standard Surface that use it like a tablet, but very few people that regularly use their Surface Book's detachable tablet functionality. I can probably count the number of times I've ever wanted to take the laptop apart on one hand.
- pdimitar 7y agoNot buying unless it runs [fixed and improved] Windows 10 mobile. I'm still dreaming of a Lumia 950 XL with a good app store...
- sequence7 7y agoIt runs Android looks like with the Microsoft Launcher https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.launcher&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft....
- VikingCoder 7y agoThen you're not buying. "It runs Android and will release holiday 2020" Literally the first line in the article.
- pdimitar 7y agoSure. Just expressing opinion. IMO it was a mistake to give up on the Windows 10 mobile OS but it's also true that MS has made too many mistakes for it to ever take off at the point where Android and iOS have been developed for at least 7 years already.
- ThrowawayR2 7y agoAmen to this; I want another Windows Phone. If I'd wanted an Android phone, there are plenty of options already. Microsoft would've done better by making a x86 Surface Go running full-sized Windows that happened to make phone calls. There were a few models of Android tablets that could make phone calls, so it's not as if it were a outrageous idea.
- fortran77 7y agoI'm so glad Microsoft is trying again in the Phone space. I wish Amazon would try again, too. It's nice to have choices.
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoIt's an Android, so no new choice here, sadly. Google may even be insisting on Google Search as default, given the search bar's prominent visibility in Microsoft's promo material with the Google Search logo.
- scarface74 7y agoAccording to a consent decree with the EU, they can’t insist on it there. They could in the US I guess.
- scarface74 7y agoNo. Microsoft is much better at handling an ecosystem than Amazon. As far as I can tell, MS is using standard Android with Google Play Services(?) Amazon was trying to create its own ecosystem.
- fortran77 7y agoAmazon has a nice suite of services. A phone that has Music, Books, Shopping, Cloud Storage for Photos, and a few key apps (Uber, Lyft, popular games) but somewhat constrained otherwise, would be great for Seniors or people who don't need a high-performance general-purpose computer in their pocket.
- scarface74 7y agoHow would that be any different than what they tried with the Fire Phone? You can already buy cheap Android phones that can do all of those things using either Google’s services or Amazon services
- sulkie 7y ago
- nemothekid 7y ago1. Is Windows Mobile Dead? 2. Does anyone remember the name of a similar Microsoft notebook that was teased 5-10 years ago? It was a foldable notebook and notetaking device kind of like Remarkable. I wonder if this is the spiritual child of that.
- bhauer 7y ago1. Yes. 2. You're probably thinking about the Courier. You'll see more about that in the thread about Surface Neo, which is the modern take on Courier.
- FreakyT 7y agoAs for 2, you're thinking of the Courier concept, which got killed in favor of Windows 8: https://www.cnet.com/news/the-inside-story-of-how-microsoft-killed-its-courier-tablet/ https://www.cnet.com/news/the-inside-story-of-how-microsoft-...
- WorldMaker 7y agoRe: 1: The last official OS builds for Windows Phone expire from security support next month (November 2019). Microsoft has been telling owners to move to iOS or (especially) Android for months now. (It's why I've got an iPhone again in my pocket now after years of Windows Phones. Sigh.)
- belltaco 7y agoVideo of announcement. https://youtu.be/dmaioTs0NH8?t=5111 https://youtu.be/dmaioTs0NH8?t=5111 The bigger dual screen device is the Surface Neo.
- joombaga 7y ago> The Surface Duo features two 5.6-inch displays that can rotate 360 degrees, allowing it to be fully unfolded as a miniature unfold to 8.3-inch tablet. Unless I'm misunderstanding, it seems like you wouldn't ever need more than 270 degrees.
- belltaco 7y agoNeeds 360 degrees to get to this. https://andro4all.com/files/2019/10/Microsoft-Surface-Duo.jpg https://andro4all.com/files/2019/10/Microsoft-Surface-Duo.jp... From this: https://livecenterimages.azureedge.net/livecenter-images/lcimg-0fac6fe3-95ec-4837-86ae-c3b0c35c5847.jpg https://livecenterimages.azureedge.net/livecenter-images/lci...
- mattferderer 7y agoSeems like a nice way to protect the screen. I wonder how hard it would be to place a small tiny notification screen on the 2nd image. I guess that would make 3 screens then. I recall some similar prototypes that used a small e-ink screen for notifications & a clock.
- joombaga 7y agoAh okay thanks. I didn't realize you could close it with the screen inside.
- marban 7y agoThis thing looks like a 1983 Multi Screen Game & Watch.
- whalesalad 7y agoAh, looks like Microsoft finally got around to producing some more gimmicks. The catastrophe that is the Samsung folding phone didn’t send a strong enough message to the industry I guess.
- dao- 7y agoThe MS device is a foldable phone with two screens, not a foldable screen. Samsung's (initial?) failure is irrelevant here.
- whalesalad 7y agoIt won't sell. It's a gimmick.
- dao- 7y agoHow is this a reply to what I wrote?
- sgc 7y agoRemember your comment 5 years from now. There is a reason that most manufacturers are working on dual/folding screens. It is natural to try to get the phone and tablet market at once. I think it's great and hope they have judged their technology correctly, because if done well it is the future.
- smacktoward 7y agoNo wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
- pier25 7y agoPersonally I don't see the attractive in dual screen devices unless we reach Westworld-like devices that are super thin and can go from phone to large tablet that can potentially replace a laptop. Otherwise it's just a thick phone that converts to 2 phones... In case anyone hasn't seen Westworld: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dD7jOLaes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dD7jOLaes
- eduren 7y agoAgree. I love the design behind the Westworld folding tablets. I don't see myself jumping aboard the train until we get at least a little bit closer to that form factor.
- subjectsigma 7y agoThere's an interesting subtlety in Westworld devices that I didn't notice until now, though - they're insanely durable. Dust, blood, hard impacts, slamming the device closed, etc don't seem to damage or impede them at all which simply wouldn't be true of real devices. I think foldable devices are inherently more fragile than smartphones which are already too fragile IMO and thus they'll never work, but few people seem to care about that right now.
- eduren 7y agoDefinitely. In order for WW style tablets, I think the biggest hurdles would be material science. It's also sci-fi and the rule of cool. If someone wanted to parody WW, then a fun scene would be the tech support at HQ. Imagine seeing main characters treating them as disposable and regularly having to pick up new ones.
- sterlind 7y agoThin-film electronics would probably be the starting point. As far as I can tell, that industry is very concentrated on display, solar and "gimmick" electronics (think electronic tamper seals or marketing strategies.) To make this device, you'd need: - A battery breakthrough (hard) - Flexible OLED and peripherals (easier) - Flexible chips (hard but optional) - High power efficiency or microfluidic cooling (hard depending on thickness.) Depending on where you let the device be folded, if you had a small enough SoC, you could protect it from bending and hide it in the panel sections that don't have a seam. The trickier bit is raw power and thermals, which will be the bottleneck for the next few years.
- canada_dry 7y agoIMHO, the hinged - but separate - displays are a much better idea than the Samsung foldable display. At least for now. I don't think the reliability of a truly foldable display (e.g. Samsung's Galaxy Fold) will be very good until another couple versions of generational improvements.
- jayd16 7y agoMaybe they should go with two glass panels and the foldable display over the hinge. If you have a setting to disable the delicate hinge display when it inevitably breaks it gracefully downgrades to this Duo experience.
- aylmao 7y ago+1. IMO the move is to focus on this type of devices and then move to foldable screens if/when both the technology matures, and there is solid demand for this form factor. The foldable display seems cool, but also seems to be, IMO, an expensive solution looking for something we don't know to be a problem yet. The problem is having no screen at the hinge. How big is this problem though? In theory it's nice but people don't even have foldable devices in these form factors yet. For all we know, most people might not mind the dual-screen approach, just like a lot of people have not minded the notch or other shortcomings of previous and current devices.
- danielovichdk 7y agoI miss Windows Phone everyday. The best designed UI imo, and a great alternative to Ios and android.
- chooseaname 7y agoI wasn't a fan of the UI, but I can still appreciate the speed and fluidity of the phones I saw my friends using. We certainly need more than just iOS and Android in the market. But, I guess I'm wrong as the market spoke...
- WorldMaker 7y agoIt wasn't even "the market" that spoke so much as US telecom companies. ("Vote with your wallet just means the rich and the mega-corporations have more votes.") Windows Phone had a good enough market share in Europe and Asia to remain a viable and competitive third place contender for a long time. It was the US where Windows Phone got locked out of the market duopoly by bad deals with AT&T and Verizon, and indications existed that all of the US telecoms were much happier with a duopoly than training/sales/marketing anything beyond that (whether or not that was an anti-competitive trust is left for your own imagination, it's not like the US has strong anti-trust teeth right now).
- Faark 7y agoWhat you are describing is the usual problem of establishing a two sided market. You need users to make app developers care. You need apps to get users in the first place. From what I remember, MS already had to build some apps themselves / offer significant financial incentives [0]. This seemed hardly sustainable and thus the death of the product was, while disappointing, not a surprise. So yeah, you don't need a conspiracy to explain this failure. [0] https://www.pcworld.com/article/2031384/microsoft-stokes-windows-app-development-with-cash.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2031384/microsoft-stokes-win...
- WorldMaker 7y ago
- saulrh 7y agoI've been missing my Nexus 7 since it finished dying and have been wishing for a device with this form factor for years... but with a heavily-skinned custom android distro I'm not touching it with a ten-foot pole. MS isn't awful about release cadence and bugfix latency, certainly not as bad as cell network providers or traditional phone OEMs, but there's a reason I run stock android on Droid/Nexus/Pixel devices. Maybe if I can install a stock android ROM on the thing. (Disclaimer: work at Google, totally unrelated product, not the opinion of my employer, etc.)
- AdmiralAsshat 7y agoAll this time my old Nintendo DS Lite had been gathering dust in the drawer because I thought it was strictly for games; now I realize its true calling is to be a phone!
- seshagiric 7y agoOk this may be first time when Microsoft phone announcements generate more hype than iPhone
- swiley 7y agoAnother android phone. These are all just wrappers around the latest qualcomm snapdragon with whatever twist the hardware manufacture wants to add. Basic functionality in all of them will be badly broken and there's more or less nothing you can do to fix it. At least the iphone ships with an ssh client and scripting environment now. (not that I'm an iphone fan, it has it's own problems.)
- com2kid 7y ago> Basic functionality in all of them will be badly broken and there's more or less nothing you can do to fix it. I disagree. The performance and battery life differences between different phones running the same chipset is insane. Read through https://www.anandtech.com/show/14716/the-black-shark-2-review/2 https://www.anandtech.com/show/14716/the-black-shark-2-revie... For some benchmarks, the top phones are 50% faster! Storage benchmarks (not shown in that particular review) can be even more dramatic. Battery life differences can be huge (multiple hours) at the same capacity. Each manufacturer customizes the heck out of the kernel, and also attached firmware. LTE speeds can vary dramatically with "the same antennas". Same for WiFi speeds. The current Android phone I am using works great. It is surprisingly fluid and rather nice to use, though I'd argue Windows Phone 7 was still nicer (or at least more fun) to use, that ship has long since sailed.
- H1Supreme 7y ago> At least the iphone ships with an ssh client I use the Termux app to SSH on my Android phone all the time.
- mrpippy 7y agoIt's odd that they would announce it's powered by a Snapdragon 855--a chip which is already a year old, and will be two years old by the time this device actually launches. Hopefully they'll upgrade that before launch.
- h4waii 7y agoA high-end SoC from 1 year or 2 years ago is hardly the constraint on modern devices. I doubt the average person can even tell the difference from a 660, to a 835, or an 855, given all the rest of the components (mainly storage) are the same.
- mwsfc 7y agoBetween this and the Samsung Fold it feels like we have entered into the netbook (form factor) era* void. We're past peak smartphone development and are in this space where manufacturers are stumbling around for the next "it" device but creating nothing that is truly revolutionary. Yes, there are "some" use cases where a larger screen on my mobile device would be useful…. But by-and-large I still want it to fit in my pocket and be comfortable navigating single handedly . Adding dual screen & doubling the device thickness is not the solution I am looking for. *Netbooks were low-powered mobile devices (basically mini laptops) that launched in 2007 and basically disappeared (as a viable market category) after the iPad and its kind were launched in 2010. EDIT added "form factor" for clarification
- awill 7y ago>Between this and the Samsung Fold it feels like we have entered into the netbook era Except these will be >$1000 netbooks.....
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago> Netbooks were low-powered mobile devices (basically mini laptops) that launched in 2007 and basically disappeared (as a viable market category) after the iPad and its kind were launched in 2010. Chromebooks are very much alive and well.
- jetrink 7y agoYou're not wrong, by most definitions of netbook, but I think the parent commenter makes a very good point if you look at them in terms of their form factor. Netbooks of that era were these weird little machines with 8.9" screens and 70% scale keyboards. I remember carrying mine in a coat pocket. It was really exciting at the time to see Windows XP running on something like that. In the end, it was a bad compromise and those have disappeared. The netbooks of today are, for the most part, full size laptops.
- GordonS 7y agoIMO, the biggest issue with netbooks of that time is that they were so tragically underpowered! I wanted the form factor - but with enough CPU and RAM to actually use, well, anything, and a screen with a high enough resolution that I couldn't see the pixels! Back then, all netbooks seemed focused on price alone - almost like they knew it was a fad, so made them cheap enough for an impulse buy. The tech of the day just didn't stack up - but it does now. I wonder if we might see a netbook revival - small, cheap machines that are actually of doing things?
- novok 7y agoWhat I don't understand is why the devices have huge screen bezels?
- legohead 7y agothis looks way better than the Samsung Fold. if you haven't yet, watch a durability video on the Fold. the display is plastic and will get scratched from basically anything (even your fingernail). Microsoft's version has glass. also nice that it's using Android. but...how will I mount it in the car for GPS?
- belltaco 7y ago>but...how will I mount it in the car for GPS? Just fold it? https://andro4all.com/files/2019/10/Microsoft-Surface-Duo.jpg https://andro4all.com/files/2019/10/Microsoft-Surface-Duo.jp... I would get a bigger mount for the opened device though, maps are always nicer on bigger screens since you can see more.
- dagaci 7y agoI like the idea of dual screen on the phone, its quite natural to browse two related pages at the same time and will improve that kind of experience. Will it have pen support? However i'm very dubious of what the dual screen experience will be like bolted on top of Windows (NEO) and Android (DUO). Somehow in my humble opinion Apple have been able to run rings around Google and Microsoft when it come's to pure UX in mobile tech and given the past history i fully expect that true in the future. This is where i expect DUO will stumble, in the same way that Samsung fails with its extensions and bolt on's.
- jbigelow76 7y agoI like how on the Duo and larger Neo Microsoft just embraced the fact that foldable OLED isn't ready for prime time yet and instead tried to engineer the seam with as much aesthetic and engineering quality possible.
- r00fus 7y agoIt is definitely the right approach to the question "how do you engineer a folding display?". The bigger question is "what do you need a folding display for?"...
- baby 7y agoI think this is the wrong approach to think about. Nobody needs a folding display. What people need are actually two contradictory (until now) goals: compactness and large screen size. Folding is one solution to solve this contradiction.
- r00fus 7y agoAgreed. Which is why most people thought phones would have projection displays and/or keyboards a decade ago... I wonder where that all went?
- Causality1 7y agoIt's ridiculous that there's a market for that monstrosity but I can't get a normal phone with a flagship SoC and a 16:10 display.
- ropiwqefjnpoa 7y agoI was excited for moment thinking they were bringing back the Windows Phone OS as well, bummer...
- cryptozeus 7y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmaioTs0NH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmaioTs0NH8 @ mark 1:26:00
- acd 7y agoMicrosoft has always been very good at making hardware! It would be interesting with oled/lcd on one side and eink on the other side.
- m0zg 7y agoThis is often said by people who have never owned their hardware. I bought a Surface Book when it first came out. I disagree. It looks good on the photos if you've never used it, but it was kind of flimsy and buggy AF. I took it back for a refund 3 days after purchasing it. And it's a flagship device. I can only imagine what happens at the lower end of the product range.
- xhubin 7y agoI have used the first Surface Laptop since the release of it and I can say I have been very happy with it and never had any problem whatsoever.
- Marsymars 7y ago> And it's a flagship device. I can only imagine what happens at the lower end of the product range. I wouldn't really expect any difference. It's not like Apple's lower end products are buggier than their higher end ones.
- nesky 7y agoIs the split screen device market a new upcoming segment or is it supposed to be replacing an existing one? I've never thought that I need two iPhones or two iPads connected to one another in a book like fashion like this. Who's the market demographic for this type of product?
- erikpukinskis 7y agoThe only way it makes sense to me is this: Apple designed the iPhone to be a pocketable one-handed companion device to a real computer. People started using them as their only computer. The changed the design parameters enough that it made sense to offer a less pocketable device with a much larger screen. The thesis is: maybe that market can be segmented even further, by adding an even less pocketable segment with even more screen space.
- bcheung 7y agoI understand why they went with Android but I'm disappointed they didn't go with .NET. I've avoided iOS and Android development because I'm not a fan of those development environments. I would actually develop mobile apps if it was .NET.
- vatashian 7y agoGive Xamarin a go then. All the benefits of .NET on Mobile especially now that Forms is mature and .NET standard is more prevalent.
- joewee 7y agoI wonder if they will stop security patches after three years ?
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