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This is known. The number I have heard floated around is 45%. So, commercial fishing nets are a big problem when it comes to plastic in the oceans. And here we

• MichaelApproved 7y ago
  And here you are creating a straw man argument. Reducing straws won’t “save the planet” on its own. We will improve the planet by doing multiple things. Reducing plastic use (less packaging, fewer straws, reusable shopping bags) all play a role in a much bigger effort.
  • ibeckermayer 7y ago
    Except that’s not improving the planet even a bit — chances are, every one of those straws being used in an American city would end up in a well run landfill and have minimal impact on the environment. It’s yet another example of knuckle dragging elites using state force to virtue signal. Meanwhile the real sources of the problem get ignored.
    • athenot 7y ago
      > chances are, every one of those straws being used in an American city would end up in a well run landfill My front yard disagrees. It's adjacent to a somewhat busy road, and straws are part of the debris I have to routinely clean up (along with various wrappers and cigarette butts).
      • rantwasp 7y ago
        that's anecdotal evidence. how may of the straws used in your city end up in a front yard?
        • MiroF 7y ago
          The other poster provided no evidence at all, just stated things authoritatively.
        • benj111 7y ago
          On the other hand all the straws have to go somewhere. If you're picking up one straw a day from your garden, you'd expect each household in the city to generate at least one improperly disposed of straw per day. How do you think they generate statistics for this kind of thing? They don't count everything, they take samples and infer from that.
          • Cogito 7y ago
            If I'm picking up one straw a day from my garden, and assume everyone in my city has a straw in their garden every day, I would be making a Hasty Generalisation [0] It's far more likely that I live in a stray straw accumulation zone than straws are uniformly distributed over the entire city's gardens by some method. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_generalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_ge...
            • benj111 7y ago
              I think its only as hasty as assuming that it's a straw accumulation zone. Considering that a lot of land in a city isnt your garden/house (shops, offices, parks), I would suggest that that would tend to balance out the risk of this being a SAZ. I take your point that this is a data point of one. But if I found one straw in my garden, it is astoundingly unlikely that is the only wild straw in my city. I wouldn't start putting a figure on it from that, but it does suggest the lower bound is much higher than one.
    • MiroF 7y ago
      "every one of those straws being used in an American city would end up in a well run landfill" oh you sweet summer child
    • modernista 7y ago
      Except that’s not improving the planet even a bit. Arguably it raises awareness and the shard belief in at least the principle of individual responsibility. Against the overwhelming tide of the "Fuck it, I'll be dead before this shit starts to really come down on our heads anyway" which would otherwise be the reigning default.
      • rukittenme 7y ago
        Stop raising awareness and start triaging. At a certain point, everyone is aware of the top line issues and you just need to prioritize public attention. You (obviously) can't do this on your own and, at a certain level, the environmental movement's focus on bogus, small-time, feel-good issues reveals its cynicism. BUT PLEASE, stop defending it. You're just empowering those looking for a reason to resent the movement.
        • undersuit 7y ago
          >Stop raising awareness and start triaging. Like trying to start banning categories of plastic? Straws and shopping bags?
          • rukittenme 7y ago
            Banning categories of plastic is an action. Choosing to expend political capital on banning certain plastics is an act of triage.
            • undersuit 7y ago
              The political capital is being spent to stop the banning of plastics. Banning straws should really be a simple issue, but there are people opposed to the ban not for actual reasons, but because straws are first. They falsely argue that the ban will eliminate the straw, they use pleas of emotion feigning concern that the law won't have carve outs for legitimate use, they mock the minor efforts, snuggly knowing that all their distractions are making straws into a huge issue that now becomes almost poisonous to approach. Just Ctrl+F for straws in this thread. Two top comments are taking shots at straws and once I post this reply, those two comments will have pushed the word straw to 97 counts. Lastly just for fun, just a tally of the most common words on this page: 447 the 230 to 224 a 221 of 182 ago 174 and 172 hours 170 reply 170 in 158 is 150 that 103 i 98 plastic 91 it 81 you 79 on 78 for 76 are 67 not 67 be 62 we 60 this 57 but 55 they 55 straws 52 with 51 it's 51 if 51 have 50 all 49 or 43 use 39 was 39 more 39 as 38 so 38 at 37 about 36 don't 36 can 34 straw 34 people 34 from 32 them 32 fishing The article is about merchant and fishing ships.
    • ClumsyPilot 7y ago
      Most plastic ends up exported to recycling firms in china or Phillies, sometimes illegally, where its hand sorted, burned, or dumped. It is usually contaminated with food and several different types of plastic are mixed together, including unrecycleable ones. Sorting them for recycling is usually uneconomical.
  • marcosdumay 7y ago
    I don't see people talking about reducing packaging. It was all about prohibiting shopping bags, and after that failed they got that turtle video and changed into prohibiting straws. What is doomed to fail again. You won't save the planet by focusing at the least effective, most demanding action one can do.
    • viraptor 7y ago
      When I google "plastic packaging" there's a single link on the first two pages which doesn't talk about reducing packaging, sustainable alternatives, impact of packaging, or petitions to change something. If that doesn't count as people talking about it, I'm not sure what does.
    • varjag 7y ago
      There's definitely a huge shift to reducing plastic packaging. Even large TVs now come packaged without polystyrene padding.
      • maccard 7y ago
        > There's definitely a huge shift to reducing plastic packaging. On the consumer side. You now no longer see the packaging as it arrives to your house. Do an image search for Pallet Deliveries (I don't want to point fingers) and look at just how much plastic wrap comes on the "reduced waste" packaging, when it's delivered to your supermarket/department store. It's utterly astonishing.
        • brianwawok 7y ago
          Do you know how many pallets you can wrap with one roll of stretch wrap? I bet there is a teaspoon of oil in the stretch wrap for an entire pallet of goods. It’s like 6 miles down the plastic use chart.
          • varjag 7y ago
            Where I live the enterprises recycle their packaging, something a lot easier to achieve than with individuals, so can't see it becoming a huge deal yeah.
  • rantwasp 7y ago
    is it a straw man though? i'm not proposing anything, I was just providing some links and maybe hinting at the fact that if we want to reduce plastic in the oceans we should focus on the biggest sources of plastics. if everyone stops using plastic straws tomorrow it will not matter and will not make an impact on how much plastic keeps accumulating. here are a few more ideas for helping the planet: have fewer kids - this weird trick works, learn to love GMOs - this is the future, there is no way we can sustain the population growth we are experience with everyone eating organic, drive your car into the ground or until it's too expensive to repair it.
    • wbl 7y ago
      The population is already stabilizing at 11 billion. Paul Ehrlich was wrong: richer countries undergo a demographic transition.
  • kaibee 7y ago
    The uncomfortable truth is that action costs political capital. Something highly public, like plastic straws, by its nature is far more expensive than the actual environmental benefit that is accrued.
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  • viscanti 7y ago
    > We will improve the planet by doing multiple things. The problem is that people don't have infinite time or attention. So if you raise awareness and guy buy-in for something like straws, you took away time and awareness from things that could have actually made a difference. To make things worse, people will eventually realize that getting rid of straws didn't have much impact and would be less likely to participate in future causes.
    • hombre_fatal 7y ago
      People supported the anti-straw movement because it has zero impact on their life. The only people who even ask for straws are some women wearing lipstick. It's an easy issue to support. Now consider your ideas that would actually make a difference. I bet they actually change people's lifestyles which means those proposals are going to be political suicide unlike plastic straws/bags. For example, look how angry and defensive people get when it comes to their meat consumption. People will openly brag about how little they care about the slaughter of factory-farmed animals because it tastes good, just in response to someone bringing up ethical concerns. Though I do think plastic straw/bag movements are a gateway to larger ecological movements. You can't jump straight into massive changes unless society is advanced enough to not throw a shitfit if their drink doesn't come with a straw, something that we're still working on. So, maybe it's plastic straws today, but tomorrow a politician will have a real shot with a platform against waste wrt TFA.
      • slavik81 7y ago
        > People supported the anti-straw movement because it has zero impact on their life. My impression was the exact opposite. A plastic straw ban is invasive and annoying, which makes it a good way to prove commitment to the environmental movement. I just want to enjoy an occasional unplanned fountain drink without having to use a straw that dissolves in my mouth. I never litter, and would happily cut out some other use of plastic from my life to compensate. > So, maybe it's plastic straws today, but tomorrow a politician will have a real shot with a platform against waste wrt TFA. Plastic straw bans are not a prerequisite for fishing reforms. Regulating the commercial fishing industry to fix this problem will be difficult to coordinate internationally, but the end result is not going to have a noticeable effect on most people's lives. Those sort of reforms are the easiest policy wins and the most impactful, so the focus should be on campaigning for them directly.
  • EGreg 7y ago
    In general we should stop focusing on 1% solutions — that even if somehow 100% successful will only solve 1% of the problem . Like focusing on mass murders or killing by cop only, in the USA, when talking about gun violence. I get that it’s the most visible thing but it sucks all the political capital out of the discussion to do something major.
  • DonHopkins 7y ago
    If not a straw man argument, then at least the final straw that broke the camel's back.
  • CodeWriter23 7y ago
    > reusable shopping bags So now, when I don’t have a shopping bag in the car (something I’ve done since back when it was specifically “uncool” to do so), and need a bag, I pay a dime for a plastic bag that has at least 5 times as much plastic in it, and it doesn’t photo-degrade in the sunlight like the filthy evil old T-shirt bags (which I also reused) of yesteryear.
• lonelappde 7y ago
  So your proposal is what, New York City should somehow ban ocean fishing, instead of controlling plastic waste in it's jurisdiction?
  • rantwasp 7y ago
    i think banning ocean fishing would be a disaster actually. what we need is responsible fishing with proper management of the fishing nets (i.e. huge penalties for mismanaging/dumping/abandoning the fishing nets) also the elephant in the room is that an individual in the US has little to no control over huge sources of pollution apart from feel good activism (look at this! i'm using a paper straw! I saved 2 turtles this morning y'all! what? can i drink though the paper straw? naaaw dog - it's mushy after 5 seconds but the turtles)
    • i_am_proteus 7y ago
      The individual in the US could choose to not purchase tuna.
    • MiroF 7y ago
      "US has little to no control over huge sources of pollution" Not trying to suggest you can create structural change here, but just as a product of being an American consumer you have a larger power to reduce GHG emissions than most of the other 6.6 billion people on the planet.
      • elif 7y ago
        I don't disagree, but as an individual taking action, it sure feels futile. On plastic waste specifically, I think there is far more consumer awareness and consciousness than where I am now, Japan. Everything is in bags in bags in bags.
    • Robotbeat 7y ago
      Plastic straws are such a red herring for climate change. If you want to make an impact on your individual contribution, then you can get an EV (at very least a plug-in hybrid) and (if you own a home) get a solar roof or a heat pump instead of gas (everyone has pretty much replaced their incandescents, which is the cheapest thing to do). The marginal costs of these things are relatively low to neutral (and sometimes can save you money), and all of them have several orders of magnitude bigger impact on climate change than straws. And it's contagious. Several of my peers (who aren't ultra-green types) bought electric cars or installed solar roofs after I talked about my EVs, and even some of their peers bought electric cars after talking to them. Individual action builds consensus on the importance of political action, too, as it is tangible proof that a transition to a low-carbon economy isn't just possible but attractive. As far as plastic waste: We can just replace drink straws with biodegradable plastic of the same performance. Techno solutions work. It's how we fixed ozone depletion.
• tomp 7y ago
  I sometimes wonder if this "plastic straw" wasn't another of 4Chan's trolling attempts... Like, sure, reduce plastic straw usage, but most bars just replaced them with paper straws. That is obviously a stupidly wrong solution, the vast majority of the population can easily manage without straws entirely, so really it just shows that people don't actually care about the environment, it's all just virtue signalling...
  • proaralyst 7y ago
    Why are paper straws the wrong solution? Even if they take a little more energy to produce they at least don't leave long-term waste behind.
    • acdanger 7y ago
      There was a video on YouTube of a sea turtle with a straw lodged in its nose. I believe that was the spark the set off the straw-less movement.
      • allannienhuis 7y ago
        What does that have to do with the question? Using paper straws would address the type of problem you mentioned, as they're (too) quickly bio-degradable. They may not be the right direction to go in (why do we use so many straws in the first place?), but they do solve that type of impact to marine animals.
    • black6 7y ago
      At least plastic straws are multi-use. It's rare that a paper straw makes it through a single drink.
      • omnimus 7y ago
        Same goes for plastic straw. Except maybe home use which is not very common.
      • fredophile 7y ago
• spodek 7y ago
  Looking at elements loses sight of the system. The boats are there as part of a system driven by growth in GDP and population, externalizing costs, and related goals. We can say it's not us tossing the bottle overboard, but buying things the boats transport supports the system. Among the most important leverage points for changing a system are its goals and values. Changing from growth to enjoying what we have and from externalizing costs to taking responsibility and stewarding takes time and is not the only course of action, but are necessary. If we avoid straws and stop there, the action doesn't add up. If we use avoiding straws as practice then to avoid bigger things, then yet bigger things, I see avoiding straws like playing scales to learn piano. Scales alone seem like nothing, but they're how you get to Carnegie Hall. In my case, starting avoiding packaged food led to no flying which led to leadership roles with my podcast, my second TEDx talk on environmental leadership this weekend (my first: http://joshuaspodek.com/my-tedx-talk-is-online-find-your-delicious http://joshuaspodek.com/my-tedx-talk-is-online-find-your-del...), and many people now contacting me that they're changing and enjoying the process and results. Because jettisoning junk improves our lives, we expect to continue. Only action -- not talking, not reading, not writing, not debating, not analyzing -- only action on one's values brings that joy. If straws are someone's starting point, I support them. Then I support them to continue. I believe everyone should start and accelerate as much as possible in changing their behavior and values.
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  • WhompingWindows 7y ago
    > I see avoiding straws like playing scales to learn piano. Scales alone seem like nothing, but they're how you get to Carnegie Hall. That isn't remotely true. The best pianists in the world who play at Carnegie Hall, true virtuosi, are far beyond attributing their skill to scales. Scales are mainly used by great pianists within the context of your work on specific pieces, as that is where pianists will be judged. Why waste time on all 24 scales for an hour? That's terribly inefficient practice. For instance, Ballade No 1 by Chopin: you need to practice scales for the coda only, but there are 30-40 other passages that are just as important. You'd be wasting your time to practice scales in other keys and not practicing those challenge moments, as no one cares if you can do scales in E major when those scales are adjacent to the G minor tonality. When I learned that piece, I practiced the two scalar passages maybe 1% of my work on the whole piece. A more apt analogy would be: if we wean ourselves off of single-use straws, beginning piano students can wean themselves off of pneumonic devices for remembering note names. It's just the very basics of decarbonization/piano playing, and so so much more has to be done in both cases. So, no, getting to the tip-top level of decarbonization doesn't rely on not using straws, just like Carnegie Hall doesn't rely on scales. This is a classic example of focusing on very miniscule lifestyle changes, when climate change/environmentalism is about huge, broad stroke issues first and foremost.
• MrGLaDOS 7y ago
  I don't know about the US situation, but the recent EU proposal is often ridiculed for being just a "plastic straw ban". Actually the "single-use plastics directive proposal [1]", part of a greater plastic strategy [2], is not only about plastic straws: a) The ban will apply to plastic cotton buds, cutlery, plates, straws, drink stirrers and balloon sticks. These items represent 86% of all single-use plastic items on European beaches, and about half of all plastic marine litter washed up on European beaches. b) Member States will have to reduce the use of plastic food containers and drinks cups. c) Producers will help cover the costs of waste management and clean-up. The industry will also be given incentives to develop less polluting alternatives for these products. d) Member States will be obliged to collect 90% of single-use plastic drinks bottles by 2025. e) Member States will be obliged to raise consumers' awareness about the negative impact of littering of single-use plastics and fishing gear as well as about the available re-use systems and waste management options for all these products. f) Fishing gear is also addressed: "up to now, ports have been able to charge fishermen for bringing retrieved abandoned, lost or disposed of fishing gear ashore over and above their normal fee. The Commission’s proposal to revise the Port Reception Facilities Directive (COM(2018)33 final) removes this disincentive. However, ports' costs for expanding facilities and running them could find their way back into the port fee; thus increasing the overall cost for fishers. This is where the Extended Producer Responsibility comes in. Under this scheme, fishing net producers take on the responsibility (and the cost) for managing fishing gear plastic once it is landed. So, this will reduce port costs for fishers, particularly in small fishing ports, and it will accelerate the development of a dedicated waste stream for fishing gear waste. [3]" You could argue that this regulation is not enough. You could argue that the ban should not focus on the most occuring single-use plastics that wash up on European beaches but should focus on the most occurring (micro)plastic-types in the oceans. I would say this is a perfectly fine complementory step in the right direction. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/single-use_plastics_impact_assessment_summary.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/single... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/plastic_waste.htm https://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/plastic_waste.htm [3] https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/new-proposal-will-tackle-marine-litter-and-%E2%80%9Cghost-fishing%E2%80%9D_en https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/new-proposal-will-tackle-mari...
• walshemj 7y ago
  The cynic in me might think that corporates getting behind "pious" things like banning plastic drink straws allows them to avoid other more costly changes they should make. Also banning straws does impact disabled people who as usual are often ignored.
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• snarf21 7y ago
  I think this is human psychology. Most people don't really care about straws so it is easy to get riled up about it and ban it. If you asked those same people about banning bottled water or taxing it heavily, they would be against it. The more difficult the behavior change, the less likely people will stick with it. This is true for consumption reduction, weight loss, exercise and more.
• TrackerFF 7y ago
  Anyone who has ever worked in industrial jobs, know how much more plastic is being used / discarded there. Sad to say, it's only been in the past few years that many companies have really started focusing on sorting / good handling of garbage. One of my first part-time jobs were on construction sites, where I'd spend my day unloading materials which was packed in plastic - which was then just thrown in containers, which in turn were dumped in land-fills. But with that said, I think it's good that people are aware, and spread awareness.
• cwkoss 7y ago
  Metal straws look cool and seem like a good step, but are actually quite dangerous and have caused death https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/world/europe/metal-straws-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/world/europe/metal-straws...
• codesushi42 7y ago
  Why should we be using plastic straws at all?
• logfromblammo 7y ago
  This is the end result of all the Earth Day style propaganda. Regular people have made their lifestyles greener. And the impact it has made is not very significant, because the top polluters just kept on going. Instead of tackling the economic fundamentals that allow that to continue, the thought-leaders are just asking more and more ridiculous sacrifices to be made by consumers. All the straws and all the 6-pack cartilages that make it into the ocean are nothing compared with lost fishing net detritus--the things that are designed to kill and capture marine life.