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Intel slashes prices in face of AMD competition
- philliphaydon 7y agoHmm they definitely worried about threadripper 3. 2019 - year consumers win.
- llampx 7y agoThanks, but I'd still rather buy AMD since they actually offer competition. I fear that if I buy Intel now, I'm basically saying to them that they can pull whatever shenanigans they like and they're still untouchable.
- zecg 7y agoYou're missing out on a host of vulnerabilities.
- Grangar 7y agoAt risk of missing sarcasm, a large reason all these vulnerabilities in Intel are found is their market share. Same as when OSX was considered "unhackable" - it just wasn't worth the effort. AMD is likely just as bad, but it's not uncovered (yet). Supporting the underdog is a good idea nonetheless, but not for this reason per se.
- mpol 7y agoOr it is the other way around. Intel had cut corners to be able to make the fastest processors, and that is how they got their marketshare. They have been called out on it in the last two years and updates have made their processors slower. Also AMD improved massively with Zen.
- madrix999 7y agoMore like this, intel has cut a lot of corners for a long time in their x86 processors, mostly to have better performance, which ended up with all these vulnerabilites we keep hearing about every couple of months. They're just now suffering the consequences of all the shady things they've done to try and establish a monopoly in the CPU market
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y agoA more generous interpretation: Intel made decisions that favored actual measurable performance today at the expensive of theoretically known vulnerabilities that might be exploited in some hypothetical future. They gave the market what the market demanded at a cost they tolerated. And even now, after said theoretical vulnerabilities have been reified, there is very little cause to be concerned about the vulnerabilities under discussion unless you host code for other people as a business model (or use such a service). Otherwise your biggest concern is a web browser that already has a whole host of actual and theoretical vulnerabilities of its own.
- yardie 7y agoAny security researcher or engineer worth their salary is already planning for those theoretical vulnerabilities. Ideas like these are hashed out at the development meeting. Not fixed after the cart has left the barn.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y agoAnd yet people use Linux instead of OpenBSD, because it turns out security isn't always the most important consideration.
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- marcosdumay 7y agoIntel made decisions that favored the actual indicators people were looking at with a hidden cost on things people weren't aware of. They got the market exactly what the market demanded while deceiving that market by applying known bad practices. There is a huge difference in impact from saving money by using lead-based paint, but it's the same kind of decision. > unless you host code for other people as a business model Or is a victim of one of those javascript based exploits when visiting a random site.
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- alimbada 7y agoYou're comparing apples to oranges. Operating system architectures can vary a lot. CPU architecture between Intel and AMD can't vary much since they both target x86. Every vulnerability found with Intel CPUs can and has been tested for against AMD CPUs which is something you simply cannot do with operating systems, and AMD CPUs have been found not to have the same vulnerabilities.
- BoorishBears 7y ago> CPU architecture between Intel and AMD can't vary much since they both target x86. Completely and utterly false. The exploits being found exist at a point much lower than the x86 instruction set. ARM processors were also hit with speculative execution exploits.
- armitron 7y agoYou're focusing on something that doesn't really matter in the context of what he was saying, and ignoring the bigger truth which is that security researchers DID look at AMD processors and they DID find that they do not suffer from the vulnerabilities that plague Intel.
- cogman10 7y agoAll the vulnerabilities. Speculative execution vulnerabilities were found in AMD, just not the meltdown vulnerability. And, his point still stands. While intel has/had meltdown, which was pretty bad. That doesn't mean that a Meltdown like bug doesn't exist in AMD's hardware. It's like finding a bug in the OpenJDK that isn't in Zulu and then declaring that "Zulu is more secure than the OpenJDK!" Or an even closer example "Intel doesn't have the TLB bug[0]! Intel makes better CPUs!" AMD isn't guaranteed free of all exploits. It is only guaranteed to not suffer specifically from meltdown. [0] https://www.anandtech.com/show/2477/2 https://www.anandtech.com/show/2477/2
- msbarnett 7y ago> All the vulnerabilities. Speculative execution vulnerabilities were found in AMD, just not the meltdown vulnerability. Just Not Meltdown. Or SPOILER. Or Fallout. Or RIDL. Or ZombieLoad. You're really underselling the difference between the two. AMD's processors have only shown vulnerability to the issues that are inherent to the nature of speculative execution (Spectre). Intel, on the other hand, has suffered from no less than 5 or 6 separate disclosures of vulnerabilities from various places in their microarchitecture where they cut corners on process separation in order to gain speed. None of these exploits have been pulled off against AMD, despite many of the papers authors explicitly trying to,
- parsimo2010 7y agoMaybe, but maybe not. The fact that AMD has implemented a similar instruction set but is not vulnerable to many of the existing speculative attacks that plague Intel suggest that they could just have made more secure design decisions, whether it was intentional or not.
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- sixothree 7y agoThis incompatible socket thing is driving me crazy. I "just" bought a new motherboard and now I can't use any current products.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoI've never even considered that a problem - my time between upgrades is so long that the last motherboard had DDR3, and the one before that DDR2. If you're a once a year upgrader I could see it, but given the slow progression of CPU performance as of the last half decade (AMD's rapid jump to parity not withstanding), I can't see a real reason why to upgrade that often.
- sixothree 7y agoIt feels arbitrary.
- llampx 7y agoWith a motherboard bought with a Ryzen 1200 quad-core you could upgrade to a Ryzen 3900 12-core. In the same time frame you would have had two or three Intel sockets and chipsets.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoAnd that's why I described my use case - as each chipset pretty much maps to an Intel generation, two or three different Intel generations doesn't provide a compelling reason to upgrade. Again, Ryzen is different, but that's largely because they've been fighting to gain parity with Intel.
- jmpman 7y agoHow much of Intel’s demise is due to their layoffs from 4 years ago? Did they cut too deep and mess up the secret sauce?
- wbhart 7y agoI'm no Intel fanboy, but I think it is too early to speak of Intel's demise. They are still making a lot of money. I mean, AMD only has single digit penetration into the datacentre market, for example, and Intel is still compelling on mobile. And I suspect the real answer is they set their targets too ambitiously with their new node. Their 10nm was simply too big a jump with too many unproven technologies, with too many unexpected obstacles. But I wouldn't count them out of the game just yet. They are an aggressively competitive company. They'll be back.
- chapium 7y agoJust look at what happened to amd around 2010. Intel can punch back. Hard.
- HelloNurse 7y agoIntel could punch hard around 2010. We'll see what they'll be able to do now. Improving the price (not the quality) of their high-end product range from vastly inferior to slightly inferior is, at best, an attempt to remain relevant; new and better products are needed to recover actual market share, and their timeline remains doubtful.
- llampx 7y agoThey weren't bleeding on the portable side of things in 2010. Apple, Microsoft and Google (TPU) all have some sort of custom chips now which aren't x86
- tracker1 7y agoConsidering purchasing cycles are over the course of years that's not surprising. My work issued laptop is just over a year old, and I wouldn't expect a new one for another 3-4 years. Not to mention purchasing contracts that are negotiated once or twice a decade that may specify Intel. AMD is expected to double their penetration by the end of the coming year in the server space, which is huge. I think they'll also make inroads into the laptop space as well. Given that they're the preferred APU for next gen consoles won't hurt their sales to developer channels either. I would be surprised if they haven't captured about 1/3 of the overall x86 market by the end of 2021, which is where Intel will probably be where they want to be technology wise, until then it's AMDs game.
- self_awareness 7y agoYay, competition. Gotta love it.
- zantana 7y agoYes it in the midst of all the complexities of the various monopolies, oligopolies and inefficiencies in the modern marketplace, its refreshing to see the system work as promised. Just like in the Athlon days, even people who would never in a million years use AMD's product, or even know of its existence benefit from its products.
- vbezhenar 7y agoNow it's an interesting battle. I want to build new workstation, probably in 2020. I was going to go to Threadripper route, but now I have a choice and that's awesome.
- alimbada 7y agoIt's only a choice if you're willing to settle for: - a long list of security vulnerabilities which, when fully patched and recommended features (including HyperThreading) are disabled, results in a huge loss in performance(~25% in some reports) - lower power efficiency due to still using 14nm process - platform uncertainty, i.e. will upgrading mean buying a new motherboard?
- vbezhenar 7y agoAFAIK Intel patches many of those security issues in new CPUs, so performance loss won't be as severe. I don't care about power efficiency, as electricity is cheap enough for me and I'm buying computer for many years, so I'm unlikely to benefit from CPU upgrading in 7 years anyway. Basically for me it's about: * Security issues. They are real for Intel and performance loss is real. * Inter-core communication latency. I don't particularly like this chiplet design for AMD, when some cores have a long time to talk to other cores. Intel seems like a safer play here. But I did not research about their HEDT CPUs, may be it's the same for Intel. * Balance of frequency/cores. While more cores is better, I think that after 12 cores I don't really need more. And single-thread performance is always important. * Other issues. I don't like that AMD had multiple issues with its Zen CPUs, especially with Linux. Crashes, RNG bug, overall Linux compatibility. I'm feeling like Intel takes Linux compatibility much more seriously and Intel overall seems like a safer bet for stable system.
- hajile 7y agoAMD's entire chiplet architecture is aimed squarely at cheaper server chips. All of their biggest wins have been with cloud providers like Google and Amazon. If their target was the consumer market, they would have launched 7nm mobile chips first. Given that the overwhelming majority of servers run Linux, I doubt they neglected to focus on that OS. Zen 1 didn't have an especially large list of issues for being a ground-up new architecture. Launching to enthusiast desktops so you can revise things for the server market seems like a great strategy for them overall.
- noipv4 7y agoRyzen9 [3900X 12C/24T and 3950X 16C/32T] both @ 105W will be Intel HEDT's coffins
- tracker1 7y agoI think the next ThreadRipper release will be what really kicks Intel HEDT line. The new pricing structure seems competitive against the R9 series. I've already bought AMD and don't plan on switching for 4-5 years though (3600 waiting for 3950x to drop).
- s5ma6n 7y agoFinally, they were basically asking double price for some CPUs until there is a strong competition. This is a really good example why competition matters for the consumers. I hope similar situation happens for GPUs too. Right now NVIDIA asks for way more than the cards' worth.
- seamyb88 7y ago>This is a really good example why competition matters for the consumers. Imagine how much quicker the fair pricing would be if there were standards and regulations, like what goes into every other aspect of its design.
- pjc50 7y agoI think this is a poor example for the pro-regulation argument; it's a more or less classical market where competition drives innovation, but the cost of entry is very high. The only applicable regulation I can think of might be "dual sourcing".
- another-one-off 7y agoI can't quite interpret what you are saying; so I'll say what I hope you are saying: If the x86 and x86_64 instruction sets became an open standard so that anyone could implement them; that would be great for consumers. If Intel is in a position to halve prices in the face of competition there are obviously not enough players in the market.
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- PixelOfDeath 7y agoEven if it may still take some years, I have really high hopes for chiplet GPUs.
- stochastic_monk 7y agoWould the GPU have its own RAM or simply share address space with a CPU?
- MisterTea 7y agoAt that price point I'd rather spend a little more on AMD and get 24 cores. Because let's be honest, if you got the money to build a REALLY high end PC why are you penny pinching on the CPU? 200-300 isn't a big leap when the motherboard costs more than that difference.
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y agoGotta hand it to this place, it's one of the few places I visit where 200-300 dollars is considered penny pinching. The other is the country club.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoComputers at this level are durable goods and ostensibly help you take an income, so it's not too strange.
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y agoMass market computers and components being described as a durable good...HN surprises again!
- zozbot234 7y agoComputers are quite durable these days. You can easily run a useful, general-purpose OS on a computer from 10 years ago and perhaps more, even one with baseline specs. If that's not enough to be considered a 'durable good', I don't know what is.
- creaturemachine 7y agoTell that to my 9 year old iMac with the dead GPU that I can't replace, won't start up, and is going straight into the trash. Never again, Apple.
- 7y ago
- PedroBatista 7y agoIntel's offering still looks bad compared to AMD. Before the price cuts it looked pathetic, so I guess it's an improvement.
- BoorishBears 7y agoWhy is it with every AMD sales-related submission I see, the level of discourse in the comments is barely one step above name calling? My pet theory is that there's just a ton of casual investors who have also become emotionally invested in AMD...
- jdjdjjsjs 7y agoOr it could be, as people have said many times before and the actual subject of this article confirms, that people were sick of Intel using its near Monopoly in the past to price gouge its customers and slow walk tech improvements.
- Someone1234 7y agoThey called Intel's old price "pathetic." That's hardly a low level of discourse, and not really tantamount to name calling. It isn't a particularly insightful comment, I'll acknowledge that, but this response seems like it lowers the quality of the thread more than the comment it is replying to (and arguably breaks the sites rules by suggesting the other poster have ulterior motives for posting what they posted). > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. And: > Please don't make insinuations about astroturfing. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried, email us and we'll look at the data.
- BoorishBears 7y ago> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Yet you assume my comment is referring to one comment and unfairly attacking it? This entire page is uncharacteristically rife with misinformed comments and people oddly invested in shutting down anyone with anything positive to say about Intel And: Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse AMD of astroturfing. If anything I literally implied the opposite, an organic reason why there's a movement to emphasize "AMD bad Intel Good". My point is it's to the detriment of having real discussions about either when they come up on HN.
- Beltiras 7y agoStill bleeding profusely on the server side of things. AMD still has a 4X on performance and a considerable energy savings to boot.
- bryanlarsen 7y agoMuch more significant IMO is the rumours of heavy discounting for Intel server chips and the wide variety of laptops of AMD laptops exhibited at Computex 2019. AMD doesn't have significant market share in servers or laptops yet, but those are signs that it may be coming...
- mbfg 7y agoThe question is how much of this is pure marketing, given Intel's supply problems, and how much is this a real product. Will Intel actually be able to match demand for these products in the short term? It's an easy marketing win if you promise half price parts but customers enmasse can't actually buy them.
- tracker1 7y agoGiven the ability to actually buy an r9-3900x anywhere close to list price, I'm not sure it really matters either way at the moment.
- wil421 7y agoI am getting served ads that are redirecting my browser 10 times and showing something like those scammy Amazon gift card ads. On mobile safari.
- Synaesthesia 7y agoYeah it has gotten worse. You should run an adblocker on your iOS device.
- nvrspyx 7y agoTo add, I recommend Adguard, 1Blocker X, Wipr, or Firefox Focus. Out of those, I believe only 1Blocker X has a cost, although AdGuard has a subscription for DNS privacy and security/custom filters. I personally use 1Blocker X.
- wil421 7y agoThanks. Looks like I lost my ad blocker when I got a new phone. Ad Block Plus was what I used.
- tracker1 7y agoIs there a Brave release for iOS, been pretty happy with it for Android.
- nvrspyx 7y agoBrave browser is on iOS, but I don’t believe its adblocker extends to Safari. Not being able to set a default browser on iOS tends to make you use Safari more than another browser you have installed since tapping a URL in another app will open Safari, unless that app supports setting a default browser, which not many do and even fewer support opening Brave. It has to be implemented on a per app basis since they’re really just using the x-callback-url scheme. Most tend to only support setting Safari, Chrome, or Firefox.
- 7y ago
- sukilot 7y agoIs there a website that maps popular intel chips / chipsets / builds to AMD competitors? Also, what's the deal with sockets? What sets of intel chips are mutually compatible and incompatible with others, and how does AMD compare?
- marcosdumay 7y agoThe deal with the sockets is that the best CPUs stop being compatible with your motherboard only once every 4 or 5 years, and you'll only be denied an upgrade in a decade. In a quick search I got a compatibility enumeration: http://www.buildcomputers.net/amd-cpu-socket.html http://www.buildcomputers.net/amd-cpu-socket.html
- acd 7y agoIntel CPU TDP is 165W we have global warming. AMD has a TDP of 65W and 105W We have gone from 200W power supplies to 1kW power supplies in PCs.