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This might be a personal impression, but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produ

This might be a personal impression, but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produces. I've been trying to wrap my head about whether that's different than the negative response about any regulation in general (including the US one), and I feel like it is more negative; as for why, I would only be speculating.

close04 7y ago
Recently there has been a backlash against "regulation" and I can only assume it's because people associate it with "over-regulation" or are simply not aware what its purpose is. It seems to be the kind of hot word that triggers mostly negative feelings so people don't care to hear the rest. But I have yet to see a person demanding less regulation for something who didn't change their mind when faced with a problem with that something which could have been solved by (some) regulation.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  There is regulation and there is regulation. I am full in for consumer protection type of regulation, especially the parts that helps the consumer against huge companies that one person cannot influence, but the government can. In the same time there are lots of weird regulations, for example in some US states you need to have a training and a professional license to be a florist. In my country I had to take a 1.5 year training for something that can be learned in 3 weeks; I also had to take 9 exams every 2 years just to extend my pilot license, something that does not happen in other EU countries. Or taking a training (classroom and flight time) to be allowed to fly with a passenger in a 2 seater plane, and only if you have at least 150 hours a Pilot In Command. There is nothing like this anywhere else, it's just typical stupid regulation. Another weird regulation is flying in Bulgarian airspace, where the class G (free airspace below flight level 105) is anything but free.
libertine 7y ago
I think it stems from the fear of this representing a missed opportunity for them to make it, closed by regulators. I believed that once, but companies show over and over again that the lack of regulation comes at a greater cost than their gains, and the gains for the society - and I, as a tax payer, am not willing to see the shit I help to pay for getting abused. For example, Peter Thiel idea for the monopoly argument makes sense, but he doesn't account for (or doesn't want to): government pressure and greed. The idea that the monopoly is the dream for tech development keeps showing it's no dream at all in the end, it's a nightmare with massive costs: mental health, international policy, environment, cultural, etc.
ar-jan 7y ago
It's because there is a strong tendency for EU overregulation. This one sounds good to me in principle (I don't know about the implementation). Recent examples: it will be illegal to have voluntary firefighters. In the Netherlands, 80% of firefighers are volunteers. The current system works very well, and this is new regulation is likely to cause massive problems. It will be impossible the maintain current quality, because it is impossible to maintain a huge paid workforce just for occasional large incidents. For example, in a recent large fire there were over a hundred firefighters active, most of them volunteers. Moreover many volunteers do it for fun, or to contribute something to society, and do not want to be a paid firefighter, or would not be able to because of their main job. Thanks, EU. Another one: EU wants to register every single chicken. Not just commercial chicken farms, every single chicken would have to be registered, even for hobbyists having a few chickens running around in their back yard.
- Retric 7y ago
  The chicken thing can be a large human health issue. It might not seem like they are a heath hazard, but many extremely deadly flu viruses make the chicken human jump.
  - ar-jan 7y ago
    But small numbers are judged to be low risk, the main health problems have to do with concentrated commercial chicken farming.
- looki 7y ago
  A quick Google search tells me that the "new regulation" re firefighters you're talking about is a recent court ruling about the working time directive from 2003. Volunteer firefighters are a huge part of the firefighter workforce in many EU countries including Germany (97%) and France (78%) so I highly doubt what you're insinuating will happen.
  - ar-jan 7y ago
    I read about it in Dutch news, which also mentioned that other countries also have volunteer firefighting forces, but I didn't look up their numbers. Various officials here said it would have big implications and keeping the system as it is would be impossible. So some law or regulation would have to change. Incidentally this is a good example of why EU regulations can be so problematic: if this example is fixed, it will be because many countries have large volunteer forces so the problem cannot be ignored. But if the regulation happens to affect just one or a few smaller countries you might be out of luck. Not everything can be regulated centrally without unintended consequences.
Latty 7y ago
Which is pretty crazy. My experience as someone from the UK is EU regulation has consistently made my life better. The big thing that sticks out for me is mobile phones: before EU regs, every manufacturer and phone variant had a different charging cable and roaming charges were insane. Likewise, for all the hate it got here, GDPR has been amazing from my perspective. It was rare before to have a website that actually let you delete anything, it was just "deactivate your account" where they kept all your data. Now most sites offer true deletion. Meanwhile, the public got sold on Brexit with a consistent diet of rubbish articles from the Mail and friends about bent bananas being banned.
- rezeroed 7y ago
  Trinkets.
- AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
  On the other hand, US does not regulate roaming costs, but Google Fi and TMobile offer dirt cheap roaming in many countries.
  - shawabawa3 7y ago
    US telecoms costs are insane though. Paying less than $50 is basically impossible for a decent amount of data (5+GB). Google Fi for example is $70 + tax In the UK, it's hard to spend more than £20/month (for sim only at least)
    - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
      Extra $40 per month is not insane. But indeed it's higher than in Europe. Partly that could be explained by lower population density. Also services like Visible started to appear. They offer unlimited talk and data for $40.
      - vzidex 7y ago
        I don't think lower population density explains it fully, for example Australia has extremely reasonable phone plans - you can get 15GB data/unlimited talk/unlimited text for AUD$55/month (USD$37/month) [1], and it gets even cheaper if you get 12 months up front [2]. [1] https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/month-to-month/ https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/month-to-month/ [2] https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/12-month/ https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/12-month/
Barrin92 7y ago
>but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produces. it's the audience of the website. Even though most people here seem to fall into the American liberal camp due to the fact that it's a tech site there's a strong "regulation=bad" undercurrent in the posting that's also been prevalent in the industry, in particular in SV for the last few decades.
- laumars 7y ago
  I think that applies to American in a more general sense too. There's a real culture that regulation is bad for business and capitalism should trump all over priorities.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    The fact the US is a pretty dysfunctional state by first world standards is also a factor. But you shouldn't oppose EU regulations because you don't trust the US government, that's just silly.
    - laumars 7y ago
      > But you shouldn't oppose EU regulations because you don't trust the US government, that's just silly. Was anyone arguing that we oppose the EU because we don't trust the US? I don't understand how this statement ties into the comments that precede it.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        It's an explanation why > but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produces. There's no way someone's experience with states does not usually influence their opinions towards states, consciously or not.
        laumars 7y ago
Shivetya 7y ago
the only real negative is that it restricts who can perform the repair, namely "professionals". Will this lead to manufacturers using a certification system to limit who is a professional and who is not? Who determines who is a professional, how is that defined? Is there a limit on how much parts can cost? Won't do much good as in some appliances single assemblies can cost nearly as much as the new appliance
- Zenst 7y ago
  Excellent points and indeed, may open up an avenue that sure - you get the right to repair but the parts cost more than buying a new with the guarantee/warranty aspect etc etc. But let's see how it pans out. A good step in the right direction, not the goal everybody wants, but a good first step at least.
daleharvey 7y ago
I have noticed this as well. Hacker News generally considers itself liberal but actually holds very conservative views (see any thread on gender equality). The EU is being positioned as a liberal organisation (whether it truly is or not) so in every EU related thread the free speech / anti regulation commentators come out in force
- Iv 7y ago
  That's what I assume as well. But maybe that's also what it feels like to become as relevant int he tech world as the US. There is no shortage of US-bashing in international tech discussions. As long as it stays good spirited, I don't mind.
- noonespecial 7y ago
  >Hacker News generally considers itself liberal but actually holds very conservative views... I'm not sure that's entirely true. We're(1) a bunch of programmers. We are very sensitive to unintended consequences in complex systems. I think we just tend to be a little more careful with feel-good regulations that might produce these, along with being more evidence based in judging success. (1) With all of the usual caveats about the monolithic "us".
  - watwut 7y ago
    I don't think it is about being cautious of unintended consequences in general. It is about being cautious of some unintended consequences and not caring about other unintended consequences. The choice of which of these matters decides the politics.
    - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
      It's about known unintended consequences vs. unknown unintended consequences.
  - rs1234 7y ago
    True, but what about intended consequences my friend. Companies obviously have a vested interest in getting us to buy new products, rather than have us repair the older ones. So, I guess a little regulation will be ok.
duxup 7y ago
I'll toss out my opinion. I'm a big fan of regulation to maintain good markets / good practices. I'm very sympathetic to the spirit of a lot of EU policies, but the actual laws seem a lot like "old man who doesn't understand internet writes law" and at best whiff entirely at the point. Example, I think it is terribly misguided to think people care / read cookie banners and they're not helping / educating anyone. I don't doubt there are a lot of conservative POVs regarding regulation on HN, but I propose that just as often folks are running into a sort of "narcissism of small differences" where I share a lot of the values those laws have .... but man it irks me to see them swing and miss so badly.
- eitland 7y ago
  > Example, I think it is terribly misguided to think people care / read cookie banners and they're not helping / educating anyone. My understanding still is that cookie banners are a huge waste of time. The GDPR doesn't say: "If you post an obnoxious banner on your site you are allowed to continue as before". AFAIK, and no one here has proven me wrong so far it says something like: - there needs to be a clear reason for why the customers data should stay with you or your partners - except for health care, jail etc there needs to be clear voluntary opt in They are already fining companies and I guess the reason not everyone is feeling it yet is because the wheels of justice grinds slowly. Edit: that said, I see why it might look different as some companies are quite brazen in their noncompliance.
  - duxup 7y ago
    The opt in is the big ugly banner isn't it?
    - eitland 7y ago
      If it was voluntary opt in then then you'd just click away once and that would be the sign that you didn't voluntarily opt in. Voluntary opt in can work together with targeted ads: - the customer can opt in to receive more relevant ads (hopefully). A note on the page with an explanation and a way to actively choose targeted would probably be OK with me and I guess some people would choose it. - or the customer ignores the notice and get general or hopefully contextual ads The current in-your-face-and-defaults-to-track-if-you-follow -the-defaults system however is not voluntary and not opt in IMO.
acdha 7y ago
There’s a huge, well-funded industry pushing skepticism of regulation in most of the English-speaking world. In both the US and UK, those journalists and lobbyists use EU as their default example of excess with all sorts of exaggeration and misrepresentation[1]. We like to tell ourselves that we’re not so easily influenced but, as the comments here regularly demonstrate, those companies pay for these efforts because they are influential. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johns...

close04 7y ago

Recently there has been a backlash against "regulation" and I can only assume it's because people associate it with "over-regulation" or are simply not aware what its purpose is. It seems to be the kind of hot word that triggers mostly negative feelings so people don't care to hear the rest. But I have yet to see a person demanding less regulation for something who didn't change their mind when faced with a problem with that something which could have been solved by (some) regulation.

AdrianB1 7y ago
There is regulation and there is regulation. I am full in for consumer protection type of regulation, especially the parts that helps the consumer against huge companies that one person cannot influence, but the government can. In the same time there are lots of weird regulations, for example in some US states you need to have a training and a professional license to be a florist. In my country I had to take a 1.5 year training for something that can be learned in 3 weeks; I also had to take 9 exams every 2 years just to extend my pilot license, something that does not happen in other EU countries. Or taking a training (classroom and flight time) to be allowed to fly with a passenger in a 2 seater plane, and only if you have at least 150 hours a Pilot In Command. There is nothing like this anywhere else, it's just typical stupid regulation. Another weird regulation is flying in Bulgarian airspace, where the class G (free airspace below flight level 105) is anything but free.

libertine 7y ago

I think it stems from the fear of this representing a missed opportunity for them to make it, closed by regulators. I believed that once, but companies show over and over again that the lack of regulation comes at a greater cost than their gains, and the gains for the society - and I, as a tax payer, am not willing to see the shit I help to pay for getting abused. For example, Peter Thiel idea for the monopoly argument makes sense, but he doesn't account for (or doesn't want to): government pressure and greed. The idea that the monopoly is the dream for tech development keeps showing it's no dream at all in the end, it's a nightmare with massive costs: mental health, international policy, environment, cultural, etc.

ar-jan 7y ago

It's because there is a strong tendency for EU overregulation. This one sounds good to me in principle (I don't know about the implementation). Recent examples: it will be illegal to have voluntary firefighters. In the Netherlands, 80% of firefighers are volunteers. The current system works very well, and this is new regulation is likely to cause massive problems. It will be impossible the maintain current quality, because it is impossible to maintain a huge paid workforce just for occasional large incidents. For example, in a recent large fire there were over a hundred firefighters active, most of them volunteers. Moreover many volunteers do it for fun, or to contribute something to society, and do not want to be a paid firefighter, or would not be able to because of their main job. Thanks, EU. Another one: EU wants to register every single chicken. Not just commercial chicken farms, every single chicken would have to be registered, even for hobbyists having a few chickens running around in their back yard.

Retric 7y ago
The chicken thing can be a large human health issue. It might not seem like they are a heath hazard, but many extremely deadly flu viruses make the chicken human jump.
- ar-jan 7y ago
  But small numbers are judged to be low risk, the main health problems have to do with concentrated commercial chicken farming.
looki 7y ago
A quick Google search tells me that the "new regulation" re firefighters you're talking about is a recent court ruling about the working time directive from 2003. Volunteer firefighters are a huge part of the firefighter workforce in many EU countries including Germany (97%) and France (78%) so I highly doubt what you're insinuating will happen.
- ar-jan 7y ago
  I read about it in Dutch news, which also mentioned that other countries also have volunteer firefighting forces, but I didn't look up their numbers. Various officials here said it would have big implications and keeping the system as it is would be impossible. So some law or regulation would have to change. Incidentally this is a good example of why EU regulations can be so problematic: if this example is fixed, it will be because many countries have large volunteer forces so the problem cannot be ignored. But if the regulation happens to affect just one or a few smaller countries you might be out of luck. Not everything can be regulated centrally without unintended consequences.

Latty 7y ago

Which is pretty crazy. My experience as someone from the UK is EU regulation has consistently made my life better. The big thing that sticks out for me is mobile phones: before EU regs, every manufacturer and phone variant had a different charging cable and roaming charges were insane. Likewise, for all the hate it got here, GDPR has been amazing from my perspective. It was rare before to have a website that actually let you delete anything, it was just "deactivate your account" where they kept all your data. Now most sites offer true deletion. Meanwhile, the public got sold on Brexit with a consistent diet of rubbish articles from the Mail and friends about bent bananas being banned.

rezeroed 7y ago
Trinkets.
AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
On the other hand, US does not regulate roaming costs, but Google Fi and TMobile offer dirt cheap roaming in many countries.
- shawabawa3 7y ago
  US telecoms costs are insane though. Paying less than $50 is basically impossible for a decent amount of data (5+GB). Google Fi for example is $70 + tax In the UK, it's hard to spend more than £20/month (for sim only at least)
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    Extra $40 per month is not insane. But indeed it's higher than in Europe. Partly that could be explained by lower population density. Also services like Visible started to appear. They offer unlimited talk and data for $40.
    - vzidex 7y ago
      I don't think lower population density explains it fully, for example Australia has extremely reasonable phone plans - you can get 15GB data/unlimited talk/unlimited text for AUD$55/month (USD$37/month) [1], and it gets even cheaper if you get 12 months up front [2]. [1] https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/month-to-month/ https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/month-to-month/ [2] https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/12-month/ https://www.vodafone.com.au/plans/state/sim/12-month/

Barrin92 7y ago

>but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produces. it's the audience of the website. Even though most people here seem to fall into the American liberal camp due to the fact that it's a tech site there's a strong "regulation=bad" undercurrent in the posting that's also been prevalent in the industry, in particular in SV for the last few decades.

laumars 7y ago
I think that applies to American in a more general sense too. There's a real culture that regulation is bad for business and capitalism should trump all over priorities.
- anoncake 7y ago
  The fact the US is a pretty dysfunctional state by first world standards is also a factor. But you shouldn't oppose EU regulations because you don't trust the US government, that's just silly.
  - laumars 7y ago
    > But you shouldn't oppose EU regulations because you don't trust the US government, that's just silly. Was anyone arguing that we oppose the EU because we don't trust the US? I don't understand how this statement ties into the comments that precede it.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      It's an explanation why > but there seems to be a reflexive (negative) response from many posters here regarding any new regulation that the EU produces. There's no way someone's experience with states does not usually influence their opinions towards states, consciously or not.
      - laumars 7y ago

Shivetya 7y ago

the only real negative is that it restricts who can perform the repair, namely "professionals". Will this lead to manufacturers using a certification system to limit who is a professional and who is not? Who determines who is a professional, how is that defined? Is there a limit on how much parts can cost? Won't do much good as in some appliances single assemblies can cost nearly as much as the new appliance

Zenst 7y ago
Excellent points and indeed, may open up an avenue that sure - you get the right to repair but the parts cost more than buying a new with the guarantee/warranty aspect etc etc. But let's see how it pans out. A good step in the right direction, not the goal everybody wants, but a good first step at least.

daleharvey 7y ago

I have noticed this as well. Hacker News generally considers itself liberal but actually holds very conservative views (see any thread on gender equality). The EU is being positioned as a liberal organisation (whether it truly is or not) so in every EU related thread the free speech / anti regulation commentators come out in force

Iv 7y ago
That's what I assume as well. But maybe that's also what it feels like to become as relevant int he tech world as the US. There is no shortage of US-bashing in international tech discussions. As long as it stays good spirited, I don't mind.
noonespecial 7y ago
>Hacker News generally considers itself liberal but actually holds very conservative views... I'm not sure that's entirely true. We're(1) a bunch of programmers. We are very sensitive to unintended consequences in complex systems. I think we just tend to be a little more careful with feel-good regulations that might produce these, along with being more evidence based in judging success. (1) With all of the usual caveats about the monolithic "us".
- watwut 7y ago
  I don't think it is about being cautious of unintended consequences in general. It is about being cautious of some unintended consequences and not caring about other unintended consequences. The choice of which of these matters decides the politics.
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    It's about known unintended consequences vs. unknown unintended consequences.
- rs1234 7y ago
  True, but what about intended consequences my friend. Companies obviously have a vested interest in getting us to buy new products, rather than have us repair the older ones. So, I guess a little regulation will be ok.

duxup 7y ago

I'll toss out my opinion. I'm a big fan of regulation to maintain good markets / good practices. I'm very sympathetic to the spirit of a lot of EU policies, but the actual laws seem a lot like "old man who doesn't understand internet writes law" and at best whiff entirely at the point. Example, I think it is terribly misguided to think people care / read cookie banners and they're not helping / educating anyone. I don't doubt there are a lot of conservative POVs regarding regulation on HN, but I propose that just as often folks are running into a sort of "narcissism of small differences" where I share a lot of the values those laws have .... but man it irks me to see them swing and miss so badly.

eitland 7y ago
> Example, I think it is terribly misguided to think people care / read cookie banners and they're not helping / educating anyone. My understanding still is that cookie banners are a huge waste of time. The GDPR doesn't say: "If you post an obnoxious banner on your site you are allowed to continue as before". AFAIK, and no one here has proven me wrong so far it says something like: - there needs to be a clear reason for why the customers data should stay with you or your partners - except for health care, jail etc there needs to be clear voluntary opt in They are already fining companies and I guess the reason not everyone is feeling it yet is because the wheels of justice grinds slowly. Edit: that said, I see why it might look different as some companies are quite brazen in their noncompliance.
- duxup 7y ago
  The opt in is the big ugly banner isn't it?
  - eitland 7y ago
    If it was voluntary opt in then then you'd just click away once and that would be the sign that you didn't voluntarily opt in. Voluntary opt in can work together with targeted ads: - the customer can opt in to receive more relevant ads (hopefully). A note on the page with an explanation and a way to actively choose targeted would probably be OK with me and I guess some people would choose it. - or the customer ignores the notice and get general or hopefully contextual ads The current in-your-face-and-defaults-to-track-if-you-follow -the-defaults system however is not voluntary and not opt in IMO.

acdha 7y ago

There’s a huge, well-funded industry pushing skepticism of regulation in most of the English-speaking world. In both the US and UK, those journalists and lobbyists use EU as their default example of excess with all sorts of exaggeration and misrepresentation[1]. We like to tell ourselves that we’re not so easily influenced but, as the comments here regularly demonstrate, those companies pay for these efforts because they are influential. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johns...