6 ms·

Uber stopped its own investigators from reporting crimes to the police

261 points by CaptainZapp 7y ago

Nasrudith 7y ago
While uber is a shifty as hell company at best I am not sure if they are wrong here without any mandated reporter requirements. While it is a bad look one "oops" from something that looks bad could cause harm to an innocent party for what victimized parties usually report already. That could rightfully lead to them being at fault in a multimillion dollar lawsuit and even worse headlines like "Uber got kids taken away from Gold Star father". Seems shitty but the right thing to do at scale.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  I think the main issue here is the public face they try to maintain (we're a changed company, tech bro' dude culture is now erradicated, we take security very seriously, etc ad nauseum) with what they are really pulling off in the back end. Namely the exact same shit that they always did. Do they still charge $1 "security" surcharge, which Uber actually just pocketed?
  - sceptical 7y ago
    How can Uber pocket this surcharge? Clearly Uber pays for background checks, insurance as well as the investigators mentioned here.
    - CaptainZapp 7y ago
      How can Uber pocket this surcharge? Oh, they absolutely did[1] [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-449-million-safe-rides-fees-2016-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-449-million-safe-rides-...
stefan_ 7y ago
Of course not. The team exists specifically to avoid police (and then at one point, press) involvement. It's like sports teams that have their own anti-doping initiatives - not to catch cheaters, but to catch them before the authorities can and sink you.
dbuder 7y ago
Uber is rotten to the core, support their competitors and ostracize their employees.
duxup 7y ago
>The investigators are also allegedly instructed to “first to protect Uber” and make sure it is “not held liable” for any crimes that are committed by people using the company’s ride-hailing platform. This doesn't seem much different than say interacting with HR inside your own company or anything like that. Still a bad look and morally questionable, but at the same time I do agree that the victim can / should go to the police if they wish to. If Uber did go to the police I wonder what guidelines there would be. Only if there is a confession? "Enough" evidence? Or just any accusation? I can imagine a situation where a victim doesn't want to go to the police, and that is their call. I'm not sure it is Urber's job to do it for them.
- eli 7y ago
  This is a stereotype of HR that IMHO is not representative of the majority of people in the profession.
  - duxup 7y ago
    The majority of people in the profession don't change the incentives. They work for the company, push comes to shove that is their job. They might help me figure out some insurance thing here or there and really care, but when it comes to something important they are there for the company, not me.
    - eli 7y ago
      Doesn't everyone at the company... work for the company? An Engineering Manager has an incentive to overwork engineers to a hit a deadline -- and, yes, sometimes that happens! -- but in addition to just being a bad thing to do, that comes at a huge long term cost to the business. It's much better for the company and the employees to not overwork them. If HR is doing it right, supporting the company and supporting its employees are compatible goals.
      - falcolas 7y ago
        > supporting the company and supporting its employees are compatible goals. Until an employee does something that puts themselves at odds with the company. At which point HR is the tip of the spear when it comes to protecting the company from that employee. "Here's how to let them go legally." "Here's how we bribe them into not talking bad about us." "Here's our zero tolerance policy we can fit our employee firing into."
unpythonic 7y ago
Not sure why we don't refer to the original reporting from which this was based: "When rides go wrong: How Uber’s investigations unit works to limit the company’s liability" https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/25/ubers-investigations-unit-finds-what-went-wrong-rides-its-never-companys-fault/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/25/ubers-i...
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  Submitter here. Simple: WP is paywalled. Generally I agree that it's good practice to submit the original source. In this case and since the Verge article is pretty concise I thought it's the better choice. Mods: Feel free to change the link if you deem it appropriate.
  - RankingMember 7y ago
    Non-paywalled version: https://outline.com/wd6Y6k https://outline.com/wd6Y6k
pininja 7y ago
> the company has started giving people the “option to allow [Uber] to contact law enforcement on their behalf” if the customer is reporting an incident that may be a crime, according to the Post.
not_a_cop75 7y ago
Doesn't give me much hope for the future of Uber. Which crimes will not be reported by Uber? Where will they draw the line? Murder? Rape?
- journalctl 7y ago
  What about all of the crimes they commit? Or are skirting regulations and breaking laws not crimes anymore?
raslah 7y ago
My next web search will concern corporate psychology, and studies that explore the mindsets employees within an organization adopt resulting from the influence of leadership. These mindsets inevitably leak out into society, and are evident in the defenses offered to the indefensible behavior described in the article. Of course, there is nothing illegal here in that apparently customers are allowed the option of reporting the crimes themselves, however when you consider that perhaps there was not so subtle manipulation from investigators which may have discouraged such reports (the careful wording described, though following certain lines, indicates no boundary that can't be crossed to protect the organization), the situation clearly describes a bit of an ethical crisis. To attempt to paint it as commonplace in other organizations does an egregious disservice to the majority of companies that carry out business honorably everyday. This is only another example of tech organizations that sprung up without mature business people to run them and more budget than anything which grow much faster than is healthy and end up doing anything to survive. This trend will unfortunately continue as the concept of value and profitability continues to lose definition in our economy.
mabbo 7y ago
> “At the end of the day, we’re not the judge and jury to determine whether a crime has occurred,” Tracey Breeden, Uber’s global head of women’s safety, told the Post. “We’re here to gather information, make a business decision. We’re not law enforcement.” All the more reason to give what you have to the actual law enforcement and let them determine if a crime has occurred. They are literally choosing to make more money by allowing crimes to not be prosecuted. How can anyone who is part of this sleep at night?
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  Don't forget the corporate double-speak: >“We are very proud of this team’s work and know they approach their jobs with tremendous compassion and understanding,” the spokesperson said. “Characterizing this team as anything but providing support to people after a difficult experience is just wrong."
  - muro 7y ago
    A good example how to say nothing in many words.
- chooseaname 7y ago
  If they don't turn over what they find, when it would be appropriate for them to do so, then, yes, they are judge and jury. Good grief, this company.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TearsInTheRain 7y ago
> Uber told the Post that it’s “the victim’s choice to report an incident to police,” a position the company tells The Verge it arrived at after consulting experts. That said, the company has started giving people the “option to allow [Uber] to contact law enforcement on their behalf” This is a reasonable policy and this sentence completely desensationalizes the premise of the article
- bdcravens 7y ago
  It varies by location and severity, but in some instances this is breaking the law. https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/failure-to-report-a-crime.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/failure-to-rep... You can't just "company policy" away the law.
- asperous 7y ago
  Yeah I was just thinking of the opposite.. if Uber recorded all rides and screened them for felonies. Someone playfully hits someone in the backseat and Uber calls it in "just in case". Seems like it should be up to the victim if they want to press charges. That said I think Uber is trying to avoid the lawsuit regarding "you guys need to do more to screen your drivers!" Taking more responsibility about their drivers actions. The lawsuit is bound to happen eventually.
deogeo 7y ago
> The special investigations team inside Uber [..] is not allowed to [..] file official police reports “even when they get confessions of felonies,” One step above "snitches get stitches". Are such contracts/instructions even remotely legal? Edit: By legal, I don't mean enforceable. Rather, I mean isn't giving such an instruction itself a criminal act?
SilasX 7y ago
I feel a war of the hiveminds coming on. "Never ever ever ever talk to police, they're pure evil and there cannot ever be some conceivable benefit to doing so." 'Why, oh why, didn't Uber report everything to the police?' People who sympathize with both mentalities, what are your thoughts on distinguishing the cases here?
- cwkoss 7y ago
  I would imagine that Google/Apple/Facebook HR teams rarely refer reports of their employees illegal activity to the police as well. This probably a net good.
- davinic 7y ago
  My position is "never talk to police without an attorney" -(although this wouldn't apply if I were reporting a crime). Uber has plenty of attorneys either way. There is no conflict.
linuxftw 7y ago
Remember when Uber disabled the emergency braking system in an autonomous vehicle and killed a person? They're not an ethical company. They think it's acceptable to put dangerous, unproven technology in the hands of teenagers and subsequently killed a person that a normal human driver would not have hit.
trentnix 7y ago
The gall! Do they think they are a University Title IX Office or something?
beat 7y ago
I'm watching a case on a personal basis right now. A friend of mine was raped at gunpoint by an Uber driver, who was stalking her neighborhood looking for her the next day. And NOLA cops aren't exactly helpful to the poorer residents there... "911 Is a Joke" indeed. We'll see what Uber does. The thing is, they own a device that tracks the driver's movements. They know who he picked up, and where, and if the car stopped, and where. That's a lot of evidence to hand to police.

261 points by CaptainZapp 7y ago

While uber is a shifty as hell company at best I am not sure if they are wrong here without any mandated reporter requirements. While it is a bad look one "oops" from something that looks bad could cause harm to an innocent party for what victimized parties usually report already. That could rightfully lead to them being at fault in a multimillion dollar lawsuit and even worse headlines like "Uber got kids taken away from Gold Star father". Seems shitty but the right thing to do at scale.

CaptainZapp 7y ago
I think the main issue here is the public face they try to maintain (we're a changed company, tech bro' dude culture is now erradicated, we take security very seriously, etc ad nauseum) with what they are really pulling off in the back end. Namely the exact same shit that they always did. Do they still charge $1 "security" surcharge, which Uber actually just pocketed?
- sceptical 7y ago
  How can Uber pocket this surcharge? Clearly Uber pays for background checks, insurance as well as the investigators mentioned here.
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    How can Uber pocket this surcharge? Oh, they absolutely did[1] [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-449-million-safe-rides-fees-2016-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-449-million-safe-rides-...

stefan_ 7y ago

Of course not. The team exists specifically to avoid police (and then at one point, press) involvement. It's like sports teams that have their own anti-doping initiatives - not to catch cheaters, but to catch them before the authorities can and sink you.

dbuder 7y ago

Uber is rotten to the core, support their competitors and ostracize their employees.

duxup 7y ago

>The investigators are also allegedly instructed to “first to protect Uber” and make sure it is “not held liable” for any crimes that are committed by people using the company’s ride-hailing platform. This doesn't seem much different than say interacting with HR inside your own company or anything like that. Still a bad look and morally questionable, but at the same time I do agree that the victim can / should go to the police if they wish to. If Uber did go to the police I wonder what guidelines there would be. Only if there is a confession? "Enough" evidence? Or just any accusation? I can imagine a situation where a victim doesn't want to go to the police, and that is their call. I'm not sure it is Urber's job to do it for them.

eli 7y ago
This is a stereotype of HR that IMHO is not representative of the majority of people in the profession.
- duxup 7y ago
  The majority of people in the profession don't change the incentives. They work for the company, push comes to shove that is their job. They might help me figure out some insurance thing here or there and really care, but when it comes to something important they are there for the company, not me.
  - eli 7y ago
    Doesn't everyone at the company... work for the company? An Engineering Manager has an incentive to overwork engineers to a hit a deadline -- and, yes, sometimes that happens! -- but in addition to just being a bad thing to do, that comes at a huge long term cost to the business. It's much better for the company and the employees to not overwork them. If HR is doing it right, supporting the company and supporting its employees are compatible goals.
    - falcolas 7y ago
      > supporting the company and supporting its employees are compatible goals. Until an employee does something that puts themselves at odds with the company. At which point HR is the tip of the spear when it comes to protecting the company from that employee. "Here's how to let them go legally." "Here's how we bribe them into not talking bad about us." "Here's our zero tolerance policy we can fit our employee firing into."

unpythonic 7y ago

Not sure why we don't refer to the original reporting from which this was based: "When rides go wrong: How Uber’s investigations unit works to limit the company’s liability" https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/25/ubers-investigations-unit-finds-what-went-wrong-rides-its-never-companys-fault/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/25/ubers-i...

CaptainZapp 7y ago
Submitter here. Simple: WP is paywalled. Generally I agree that it's good practice to submit the original source. In this case and since the Verge article is pretty concise I thought it's the better choice. Mods: Feel free to change the link if you deem it appropriate.
- RankingMember 7y ago
  Non-paywalled version: https://outline.com/wd6Y6k https://outline.com/wd6Y6k

pininja 7y ago

> the company has started giving people the “option to allow [Uber] to contact law enforcement on their behalf” if the customer is reporting an incident that may be a crime, according to the Post.

not_a_cop75 7y ago

Doesn't give me much hope for the future of Uber. Which crimes will not be reported by Uber? Where will they draw the line? Murder? Rape?

journalctl 7y ago
What about all of the crimes they commit? Or are skirting regulations and breaking laws not crimes anymore?

raslah 7y ago

My next web search will concern corporate psychology, and studies that explore the mindsets employees within an organization adopt resulting from the influence of leadership. These mindsets inevitably leak out into society, and are evident in the defenses offered to the indefensible behavior described in the article. Of course, there is nothing illegal here in that apparently customers are allowed the option of reporting the crimes themselves, however when you consider that perhaps there was not so subtle manipulation from investigators which may have discouraged such reports (the careful wording described, though following certain lines, indicates no boundary that can't be crossed to protect the organization), the situation clearly describes a bit of an ethical crisis. To attempt to paint it as commonplace in other organizations does an egregious disservice to the majority of companies that carry out business honorably everyday. This is only another example of tech organizations that sprung up without mature business people to run them and more budget than anything which grow much faster than is healthy and end up doing anything to survive. This trend will unfortunately continue as the concept of value and profitability continues to lose definition in our economy.

mabbo 7y ago

> “At the end of the day, we’re not the judge and jury to determine whether a crime has occurred,” Tracey Breeden, Uber’s global head of women’s safety, told the Post. “We’re here to gather information, make a business decision. We’re not law enforcement.” All the more reason to give what you have to the actual law enforcement and let them determine if a crime has occurred. They are literally choosing to make more money by allowing crimes to not be prosecuted. How can anyone who is part of this sleep at night?

throwaway_law 7y ago
Don't forget the corporate double-speak: >“We are very proud of this team’s work and know they approach their jobs with tremendous compassion and understanding,” the spokesperson said. “Characterizing this team as anything but providing support to people after a difficult experience is just wrong."
- muro 7y ago
  A good example how to say nothing in many words.
chooseaname 7y ago
If they don't turn over what they find, when it would be appropriate for them to do so, then, yes, they are judge and jury. Good grief, this company.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TearsInTheRain 7y ago

> Uber told the Post that it’s “the victim’s choice to report an incident to police,” a position the company tells The Verge it arrived at after consulting experts. That said, the company has started giving people the “option to allow [Uber] to contact law enforcement on their behalf” This is a reasonable policy and this sentence completely desensationalizes the premise of the article

bdcravens 7y ago
It varies by location and severity, but in some instances this is breaking the law. https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/failure-to-report-a-crime.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/failure-to-rep... You can't just "company policy" away the law.
asperous 7y ago
Yeah I was just thinking of the opposite.. if Uber recorded all rides and screened them for felonies. Someone playfully hits someone in the backseat and Uber calls it in "just in case". Seems like it should be up to the victim if they want to press charges. That said I think Uber is trying to avoid the lawsuit regarding "you guys need to do more to screen your drivers!" Taking more responsibility about their drivers actions. The lawsuit is bound to happen eventually.

deogeo 7y ago

> The special investigations team inside Uber [..] is not allowed to [..] file official police reports “even when they get confessions of felonies,” One step above "snitches get stitches". Are such contracts/instructions even remotely legal? Edit: By legal, I don't mean enforceable. Rather, I mean isn't giving such an instruction itself a criminal act?

SilasX 7y ago

I feel a war of the hiveminds coming on. "Never ever ever ever talk to police, they're pure evil and there cannot ever be some conceivable benefit to doing so." 'Why, oh why, didn't Uber report everything to the police?' People who sympathize with both mentalities, what are your thoughts on distinguishing the cases here?

cwkoss 7y ago
I would imagine that Google/Apple/Facebook HR teams rarely refer reports of their employees illegal activity to the police as well. This probably a net good.
davinic 7y ago
My position is "never talk to police without an attorney" -(although this wouldn't apply if I were reporting a crime). Uber has plenty of attorneys either way. There is no conflict.

linuxftw 7y ago

Remember when Uber disabled the emergency braking system in an autonomous vehicle and killed a person? They're not an ethical company. They think it's acceptable to put dangerous, unproven technology in the hands of teenagers and subsequently killed a person that a normal human driver would not have hit.

trentnix 7y ago

The gall! Do they think they are a University Title IX Office or something?

beat 7y ago

I'm watching a case on a personal basis right now. A friend of mine was raped at gunpoint by an Uber driver, who was stalking her neighborhood looking for her the next day. And NOLA cops aren't exactly helpful to the poorer residents there... "911 Is a Joke" indeed. We'll see what Uber does. The thing is, they own a device that tracks the driver's movements. They know who he picked up, and where, and if the car stopped, and where. That's a lot of evidence to hand to police.