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It seems to me like China wants the electric car manufacturing revolution to mainly be under their control/borders. My guess is that the reason they allowed Tes

by gibolt 7y ago

It seems to me like China wants the electric car manufacturing revolution to mainly be under their control/borders. My guess is that the reason they allowed Tesla so willingly is that Nio and other local companies had already started crashing hard and BYD with their tiny battery packs were unlikely to drive sufficient adoption, especially for export. The only way to grab the market was to lure in the best and drive more internal competition.

natch 7y ago
Makes sense. I think there’s also a bit of the killer being killed by Tesla here, because people want Teslas more.
- d2161 7y ago
  Yeah maybe. Pretty sure Nio will tank though. Building car owner club houses despite their losses is weird. I don't understand why they don't spend money on improving their product.
toinetoine 7y ago
BYD with their tiny battery packs My friend bought a BYD sedan last year for 100k RMB ($15k) and it gets ~300km per charge.
- ivalm 7y ago
  186 miles is not a lot... model 3 is 220-325 depending on config.
  - josefresco 7y ago
    For $15K?!? Let's compare apples to apples.
  - radiorental 7y ago
    Apples to apples here. My '16 leaf was 15K after generous incentives and it only gets 120 miles on a very good day.
- rconti 7y ago
  61kWh, not bad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6
- baybal2 7y ago
  E6 is an interesting case It's freaking heavy at 2t. It's not that small or aerodynamic. It's battery pack is definitely behind leaders in net capacity. What makes it run that long is that they don't overprovision the battery that much, so much more of those 60kwh is available for driving. In addition to that, BYD uses PM BLDC motors that are better than induction motors at doing regen at low and very low speeds, which is much more important for city driving. Add to this that their battery and electronics can take more regen current, and do it more efficiently.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >What makes it run that long is that they don't overprovision the battery that much, so much more of those 60kwh is available for driving. there's a reason they overprovision. the battery is going to wear out way sooner than their competitors.
    - baybal2 7y ago
      They specifically use a battery chemistry with very high cycle life and high current tolerance just for that.
      - gruez 7y ago
        Interesting. Is there a reason this technology isn't used by competitors? What are the downsides? Is it their "secret sauce"?
        baybal2 7y ago
        BYD owns the biggest factory for LFP batteries around. That's point one The biggest downside is its lower specific energy, but it is compensated by all of things above, so the net capacity and energy density comes close to other chemistries. However, working around all of those "sharp corners" requires a very different engineering approach from mainstream EVs. So that's a second point. Competitors largely don't bother going deep with engineering. The engineering philosophy there is much closer to their electric busses. Much more manufacturing conscious, with a lot considerations for commercial use. They think of heavy users who will use the battery for 2k+ cycles with minimal service, and go through multiple battery packs through the life of a vehicle.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> The only way to grab the market was to lure in the best and drive more internal competition Post-Xi China isn't really about internal competition. More likely they're hoping to replicate Tesla's IP. (Tesla, in turn, bets it can gain more from selling in China than the IP it will lose in domestically-fabricated components.)
- scumbert 7y ago
  Thanks for being a realist. All the significant "competitors" domestically are arms of the Chinese state. Tesla's calculations have to be aware of that.
  - afterburner 7y ago
    > Tesla's calculations have to be aware of that. Ehn, everyone seems prone to short term thinking.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Most Android phones are made in China, many by Chinese companies. Yet iPhones are still popular there. I don’t see why Tesla can’t do the same as the more upmarket brand. Have any of the Chinese companies come close to designing something as nice as any of the Tesla cars?
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      This. Tesla Model S’s are going to those who would be driving black Audi A6s anyways. There isn’t Chinese brand loyalty in the high end car market, no one thinks any BYD can substitute for a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Note all these are already made in China anyways.
      - sjtindell 7y ago
        I would almost think that the higher end of Chinese consumers, educated in other countries and working for international firms, might even prefer non-Chinese brands.
d2161 7y ago
I got the impression you feel that's a bad thing, but I think it's just me. To me a rational governments would want its country to grow. And economic growth is accomplished by having new or growing businesses. I agree Tesla was allowed as part of their benefit. I don't think Tesla benefits any of those Chinese automakers. No one wants a competitor. Sure, Tesla would help the crap companies die faster and force the rest to adapt to higher standards. But I think the real intention is for Chinese consumers to benefit from a superior and less polluting product. They are aggressively environmental nowadays afterall.

by gibolt 7y ago

natch 7y ago

Makes sense. I think there’s also a bit of the killer being killed by Tesla here, because people want Teslas more.

d2161 7y ago
Yeah maybe. Pretty sure Nio will tank though. Building car owner club houses despite their losses is weird. I don't understand why they don't spend money on improving their product.

toinetoine 7y ago

BYD with their tiny battery packs My friend bought a BYD sedan last year for 100k RMB ($15k) and it gets ~300km per charge.

ivalm 7y ago
186 miles is not a lot... model 3 is 220-325 depending on config.
- josefresco 7y ago
  For $15K?!? Let's compare apples to apples.
- radiorental 7y ago
  Apples to apples here. My '16 leaf was 15K after generous incentives and it only gets 120 miles on a very good day.
rconti 7y ago
61kWh, not bad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6
baybal2 7y ago
E6 is an interesting case It's freaking heavy at 2t. It's not that small or aerodynamic. It's battery pack is definitely behind leaders in net capacity. What makes it run that long is that they don't overprovision the battery that much, so much more of those 60kwh is available for driving. In addition to that, BYD uses PM BLDC motors that are better than induction motors at doing regen at low and very low speeds, which is much more important for city driving. Add to this that their battery and electronics can take more regen current, and do it more efficiently.
- gruez 7y ago
  >What makes it run that long is that they don't overprovision the battery that much, so much more of those 60kwh is available for driving. there's a reason they overprovision. the battery is going to wear out way sooner than their competitors.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    They specifically use a battery chemistry with very high cycle life and high current tolerance just for that.
    - gruez 7y ago
      Interesting. Is there a reason this technology isn't used by competitors? What are the downsides? Is it their "secret sauce"?
      - baybal2 7y ago
        BYD owns the biggest factory for LFP batteries around. That's point one The biggest downside is its lower specific energy, but it is compensated by all of things above, so the net capacity and energy density comes close to other chemistries. However, working around all of those "sharp corners" requires a very different engineering approach from mainstream EVs. So that's a second point. Competitors largely don't bother going deep with engineering. The engineering philosophy there is much closer to their electric busses. Much more manufacturing conscious, with a lot considerations for commercial use. They think of heavy users who will use the battery for 2k+ cycles with minimal service, and go through multiple battery packs through the life of a vehicle.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> The only way to grab the market was to lure in the best and drive more internal competition Post-Xi China isn't really about internal competition. More likely they're hoping to replicate Tesla's IP. (Tesla, in turn, bets it can gain more from selling in China than the IP it will lose in domestically-fabricated components.)

scumbert 7y ago
Thanks for being a realist. All the significant "competitors" domestically are arms of the Chinese state. Tesla's calculations have to be aware of that.
- afterburner 7y ago
  > Tesla's calculations have to be aware of that. Ehn, everyone seems prone to short term thinking.
- dmix 7y ago
  Most Android phones are made in China, many by Chinese companies. Yet iPhones are still popular there. I don’t see why Tesla can’t do the same as the more upmarket brand. Have any of the Chinese companies come close to designing something as nice as any of the Tesla cars?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    This. Tesla Model S’s are going to those who would be driving black Audi A6s anyways. There isn’t Chinese brand loyalty in the high end car market, no one thinks any BYD can substitute for a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Note all these are already made in China anyways.
    - sjtindell 7y ago
      I would almost think that the higher end of Chinese consumers, educated in other countries and working for international firms, might even prefer non-Chinese brands.

d2161 7y ago

I got the impression you feel that's a bad thing, but I think it's just me. To me a rational governments would want its country to grow. And economic growth is accomplished by having new or growing businesses. I agree Tesla was allowed as part of their benefit. I don't think Tesla benefits any of those Chinese automakers. No one wants a competitor. Sure, Tesla would help the crap companies die faster and force the rest to adapt to higher standards. But I think the real intention is for Chinese consumers to benefit from a superior and less polluting product. They are aggressively environmental nowadays afterall.