4 ms·

I shuddered when I saw what a 4 letter word got mutilated into originally (russian) it was Борщ And coincidentally Borš in estonian. And in dutch it became b

by alecmg 7y ago

I shuddered when I saw what a 4 letter word got mutilated into originally (russian) it was Борщ And coincidentally Borš in estonian. And in dutch it became borsjtsjsch? How? Why? Why do you need 8 letters to transmit a single phonem? No wonder dutch can construct these weird word combos. Edit, nvm, apparently last sch belongs to next word. Still creepy

mcv 7y ago
Yeah, it's 'borsjtsj'. No idea why. Presumably it's the closest approximation of that phoneme in Dutch, but it seems unlikely that anyone trying to pronounce the Dutch transliteration would get anywhere close to the Russian original. Borsjt or possibly even borsj would probably be better.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  There is good reason for the Dutch transliteration. Compare English, where /ʃ/ is a very common phoneme, but due to deriving the alphabet from Latin (which had no /ʃ/), there is no letter for it. People are taught that the sound is spelled "sh", but that's not quite true: mission contrition sure And as all of those examples illustrate, in addition to being a phoneme in its own right, [ʃ] is also the English allophonic reduction of the sound sequence /sj/. It's not a coincidence that "sj" is the standard Dutch spelling of the same sound. The English standard orthographical equivalent, "borshch", is less accurate than the Dutch is. It's very interesting to compare people's view of /ʃ/ with /ʒ/, another perfectly normal native English phoneme, but one that most people insist is foreign and hard to pronounce. The only difference I see is that a standard American education covers the idea that /ʃ/ is a real sound and should be spelled "sh", while /ʒ/ is generally not mentioned. But of course the existence of the sound is not actually related to whether your teacher mentioned it in elementary school.
  - monknomo 7y ago
    I usually spell it borscht, do they do it differently in the UK?
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      Borscht is also the name that I know (though as an American, I can't speak to the UK). "Borshch" is the orthographical equivalent to Russian Борщ and Dutch borsjtsj.
      - icegore 7y ago
        Except the fact that borscht (борщ) is originally a Ukrainian word not Russian.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      I don't think so. I'm British and know it as "borscht"; I've never (consciously) seen "borshch" until now.
      - em-bee 7y ago
        the comment was explaining which spelling would most closely resemble the original russian pronunciation. as some of the sister comments explain, borscht is the yiddish pronunciation
    - Itaxpica 7y ago
      Borscht with a T is the Yiddish pronunciation, unlike Russian which drops the T. It's a more common spelling in areas that historically had a larger Eastern European Jewish population (like the US, where the "borscht" spelling extended out from New York).
    - Shorel 7y ago
      Borscht is the pronunciation in Bulgarian of Борщ.
  - xxpor 7y ago
    To add even more confusion, in my sort-of Philly accent, street is pronounced [ˈʃtɹit]. My uneducated guess on /ʒ/ is that /dʒ/ is the most common way of encountering it, so people aren't comfortable separating it out, even though it's still common. It probably doesn't help that the usual transcription is zh which basically doesn't exist in native English words.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > It probably doesn't help that the usual transcription is zh which basically doesn't exist in native English words. Depends what you mean by "the usual transcription". The usual spelling in English is "s" followed by i or u. (As in "usual" / "measure" / "vision" / etc. etc. etc. etc.) "Zh" is the standard transcription for Russian. The same sound in Chinese is today normally transcribed "r", because that is the letter assigned to it by China's official Romanized orthography, Hanyu pinyin[1]. In Wade-Giles, it was transcribed "j". [1] The pinyin "r" (and the Wade-Giles "j") can represent a sound anywhere along the continuum between what an English speaker would perceive as the two distinct sounds /ʒ/ and /ɹ/. (The "s" and the "r" in "measure".)
taejo 7y ago
"In English, Shcha [щ] is romanized as ⟨shch⟩ or ⟨šč⟩ (with hačeks) (occasionally ⟨sch⟩, all reflecting the historical Russian pronunciation of the letter (as a combined Ш and Ч)." The story in Dutch is similar, except "sh" and "ch" aren't phonemes in Dutch so they're approximated as "sj" and "tsj".
- gpvos 7y ago
  In German, sch and tsch are normal phonemes as far as I know, but they use even one more letter to spell them. I checked the origins of all Dutch words starting with sj- some time ago because some of them look and feel native (and because I'm a nerd), but it turned out that indeed all of them are loan words, even e.g. sjorren which comes from Frisian. It looks like all surrounding languages do have these as phonemes, but Dutch doesn't. (Not sure about Plattdeutsch.)
dmitriid 7y ago
Because there's no close sound to щ /ɕː/ in many European languages. Some languages approximate it with /ʂ/ (think "sh" in English). For example, Romanian: borş. Most languages approximate it with a combination of /ʃ/ ("sh"), /t/, and /tʃ/ ("ch"): - "sh" and "ch", - "sh" and "t", or - all three, "sh", "t" and "ch". Or an approximation thereof. In Swedish: Approximation for /ʃ/ is "sj" /ɧ/. Approximation for /tʃ/ is "tj" /ɕ/ which yields "borsjtj". Though they could've gone for just "bortj" :) Dutch is "Borsjtsj": Approximation for /ʃtʃ/ (sh t ch) with sj /ʃ/ and t German is "Borschtsch": Approximation for /ʃtʃ/ (sh t ch) with sch /ʃ/ and t etc. etc.
- taejo 7y ago
  > Most languages approximate it with a combination of /ʃ/ ("sh"), /t/, and /tʃ/ ("ch"): > - all three, "sh", "t" and "ch". This is not because we're confused! Just borrowing from the historical Russian pronunciation of Щ as ШЧ
- joshrotenberg 7y ago
  My Russian teachers always used the old "fre[sh ch]eese" example for us English speakers.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    To my ear "shit/sheet" are closer to щ :)
SamBam 7y ago
Is it really? Googling for "borsjtsjsch" gives me just this thread. You've created a combination of letters never seen before by Google! https://www.google.com/search?q=borsjtsjsch&nfpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=borsjtsjsch&nfpr=1
- ujjain 7y ago
  borsjtsjschrokkende - borsjtsj - schrokkende borsjtsjch does not exist, borsjtsj does.

by alecmg 7y ago

mcv 7y ago

Yeah, it's 'borsjtsj'. No idea why. Presumably it's the closest approximation of that phoneme in Dutch, but it seems unlikely that anyone trying to pronounce the Dutch transliteration would get anywhere close to the Russian original. Borsjt or possibly even borsj would probably be better.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
There is good reason for the Dutch transliteration. Compare English, where /ʃ/ is a very common phoneme, but due to deriving the alphabet from Latin (which had no /ʃ/), there is no letter for it. People are taught that the sound is spelled "sh", but that's not quite true: mission contrition sure And as all of those examples illustrate, in addition to being a phoneme in its own right, [ʃ] is also the English allophonic reduction of the sound sequence /sj/. It's not a coincidence that "sj" is the standard Dutch spelling of the same sound. The English standard orthographical equivalent, "borshch", is less accurate than the Dutch is. It's very interesting to compare people's view of /ʃ/ with /ʒ/, another perfectly normal native English phoneme, but one that most people insist is foreign and hard to pronounce. The only difference I see is that a standard American education covers the idea that /ʃ/ is a real sound and should be spelled "sh", while /ʒ/ is generally not mentioned. But of course the existence of the sound is not actually related to whether your teacher mentioned it in elementary school.
- monknomo 7y ago
  I usually spell it borscht, do they do it differently in the UK?
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Borscht is also the name that I know (though as an American, I can't speak to the UK). "Borshch" is the orthographical equivalent to Russian Борщ and Dutch borsjtsj.
    - icegore 7y ago
      Except the fact that borscht (борщ) is originally a Ukrainian word not Russian.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    I don't think so. I'm British and know it as "borscht"; I've never (consciously) seen "borshch" until now.
    - em-bee 7y ago
      the comment was explaining which spelling would most closely resemble the original russian pronunciation. as some of the sister comments explain, borscht is the yiddish pronunciation
  - Itaxpica 7y ago
    Borscht with a T is the Yiddish pronunciation, unlike Russian which drops the T. It's a more common spelling in areas that historically had a larger Eastern European Jewish population (like the US, where the "borscht" spelling extended out from New York).
  - Shorel 7y ago
    Borscht is the pronunciation in Bulgarian of Борщ.
- xxpor 7y ago
  To add even more confusion, in my sort-of Philly accent, street is pronounced [ˈʃtɹit]. My uneducated guess on /ʒ/ is that /dʒ/ is the most common way of encountering it, so people aren't comfortable separating it out, even though it's still common. It probably doesn't help that the usual transcription is zh which basically doesn't exist in native English words.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > It probably doesn't help that the usual transcription is zh which basically doesn't exist in native English words. Depends what you mean by "the usual transcription". The usual spelling in English is "s" followed by i or u. (As in "usual" / "measure" / "vision" / etc. etc. etc. etc.) "Zh" is the standard transcription for Russian. The same sound in Chinese is today normally transcribed "r", because that is the letter assigned to it by China's official Romanized orthography, Hanyu pinyin[1]. In Wade-Giles, it was transcribed "j". [1] The pinyin "r" (and the Wade-Giles "j") can represent a sound anywhere along the continuum between what an English speaker would perceive as the two distinct sounds /ʒ/ and /ɹ/. (The "s" and the "r" in "measure".)

taejo 7y ago

"In English, Shcha [щ] is romanized as ⟨shch⟩ or ⟨šč⟩ (with hačeks) (occasionally ⟨sch⟩, all reflecting the historical Russian pronunciation of the letter (as a combined Ш and Ч)." The story in Dutch is similar, except "sh" and "ch" aren't phonemes in Dutch so they're approximated as "sj" and "tsj".

gpvos 7y ago
In German, sch and tsch are normal phonemes as far as I know, but they use even one more letter to spell them. I checked the origins of all Dutch words starting with sj- some time ago because some of them look and feel native (and because I'm a nerd), but it turned out that indeed all of them are loan words, even e.g. sjorren which comes from Frisian. It looks like all surrounding languages do have these as phonemes, but Dutch doesn't. (Not sure about Plattdeutsch.)

dmitriid 7y ago

Because there's no close sound to щ /ɕː/ in many European languages. Some languages approximate it with /ʂ/ (think "sh" in English). For example, Romanian: borş. Most languages approximate it with a combination of /ʃ/ ("sh"), /t/, and /tʃ/ ("ch"): - "sh" and "ch", - "sh" and "t", or - all three, "sh", "t" and "ch". Or an approximation thereof. In Swedish: Approximation for /ʃ/ is "sj" /ɧ/. Approximation for /tʃ/ is "tj" /ɕ/ which yields "borsjtj". Though they could've gone for just "bortj" :) Dutch is "Borsjtsj": Approximation for /ʃtʃ/ (sh t ch) with sj /ʃ/ and t German is "Borschtsch": Approximation for /ʃtʃ/ (sh t ch) with sch /ʃ/ and t etc. etc.

taejo 7y ago
> Most languages approximate it with a combination of /ʃ/ ("sh"), /t/, and /tʃ/ ("ch"): > - all three, "sh", "t" and "ch". This is not because we're confused! Just borrowing from the historical Russian pronunciation of Щ as ШЧ
joshrotenberg 7y ago
My Russian teachers always used the old "fre[sh ch]eese" example for us English speakers.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  To my ear "shit/sheet" are closer to щ :)

SamBam 7y ago

Is it really? Googling for "borsjtsjsch" gives me just this thread. You've created a combination of letters never seen before by Google! https://www.google.com/search?q=borsjtsjsch&nfpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=borsjtsjsch&nfpr=1

ujjain 7y ago
borsjtsjschrokkende - borsjtsj - schrokkende borsjtsjch does not exist, borsjtsj does.