15 ms·

I'm interested as to whether this has a quality impact, or if it is purely a marketing gimmick and tax thing. I closely with the fashion industry in the UK, an

I'm interested as to whether this has a quality impact, or if it is purely a marketing gimmick and tax thing. I closely with the fashion industry in the UK, and one of the things that surprised me a lot was finding out that "Made in the UK", at least for clothing, meant lower quality. While we used to have great manufacturing expertise, that has all been lost over the last 50+ years as manufacturing was shifted overseas. Now not only is getting clothing manufactured elsewhere cheaper, it's also better quality, going against what consumers typically expect, because we lost the skills that we had. I'd imagine that the US has similarly lost manufacturing skills as operations have been outsourced. Does US-based manufacturing (of computers in this case) actually result in higher quality products? Is there any evidence of this? Or is it all just PR and looking good for politicians?

jonknee 7y ago
I think snapping together a tower can be done equally well anywhere in the world.
derekp7 7y ago
How much of computer manufacturing happens by hand, vs. loading the component reels on the pick and place machine and hitting the run button?
- chrisan 7y ago
  Well the new lovingly crafted Apple Mac Artisan coming in 2020 will be completely hand made
- magduf 7y ago
  That depends on what part of the manufacturing stage you're talking about. Will the MBP in TX have its printed circuit boards made there? Or will this just be a final-assembly plant, where they ship in the completed components and have some laborers screw them together so that they can claim "assembled in USA!!!"? The final assembly is likely mostly by hand, maybe using some fixtures to speed things up. PC board assembly, however, is usually automated except perhaps for larger connectors which may be hand-placed before reflow soldering. Those machines, however, cost an absolute fortune (the ones capable of the very high volume needed for consumer electronics), and are usually made in Japan or Germany, and then shipped to China or Taiwan where they're used by contract manufacturers. I would honestly be surprised if Apple actually made the MBP PCBs themselves instead of just outsourcing it to a CM like FlexTronics.
- giarc 7y ago
  I was surprised to see how much of the iPhone assembly was done by hand. There are videos out there showing the assembly line and it's basically humans doing each step.
weberc2 7y ago
> I closely with the fashion industry in the UK, and one of the things that surprised me a lot was finding out that "Made in the UK", at least for clothing, meant lower quality. While we used to have great manufacturing expertise, that has all been lost over the last 50+ years as manufacturing was shifted overseas. Reminds me of the IT Crowd episode with the fire extinguisher made in Great Britain. As an American, I didn't realize "made in the UK" had that reputation before watching that episode.
- vinay427 7y ago
  The stereotypes about British engineered and/or assembled cars (and their... "quirks") are well-known in the US, in my experience. Perhaps you've heard of those in particular?
  - magduf 7y ago
    Yeah, I was about to respond with this too. British cars have been infamous for terrible reliability for a long time. It's frequently joked that Jaguars became more boring, but much more reliable, when Ford bought them.
    - user5994461 7y ago
      You mean British cars are considered bad in the US or the UK? Any imported car would be worse in the US, because additional import costs and harder to get service for compared to local ones. It doesn't necessarily mean that the car is bad as a car. For another example, French cars are among the best and most popular in France, cheaper and easier to get service for. If you asked a few people there to name some American cars, they probably wouldn't be able to.
      - cerberusss 7y ago
        European guy speaking here. I think he meant in the UK and more general, in Europe. Sometimes, it's a point of pride as well. I heard an investor guy on the radio years ago, saying he drives Ashton Martin because it looks fantastic and is unreliable -- it made driving an adventure.
magduf 7y ago
It's not just skills, it's the supply chain surrounding the manufacturing. There's several articles you can find with a quick Google search about how Apple had so much trouble finding a source for small screws for the Mac in the USA, whereas in China it was trivial to find a supplier that could provide the massive quantities needed. So building the thing in the USA will probably end up costing a lot more, not just because of US labor rates at the final assembly factory (which probably isn't that much of a factor really), but because all the logistics leading up to that point in the manufacture are now so much less efficient.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  And this is in Austin, which used to be the ideal place to make PCs only 15 years ago because of DELL and its famous “just in time” suppliers.
- linuxftw 7y ago
  Yeah, it's almost like trade deals completely decimated domestic manufacturing the last 3 decades and it's impossible to build things here because everything already moved overseas. All the 'little screw' suppliers went overseas or went out of business because their customers went overseas.
  - genericone 7y ago
    Apple announcing they will continue to build mac pros in the USA is their signal to suppliers that they should follow them back to the USA. If the incentive to small-parts suppliers is good and the reverberating feedback are strong enough (small-suppliers bringing large suppliers, large suppliers bringing more small suppliers, rinse repeat), it'll lead other manufacturers to come back. If automation is going to take over labor, then location and labor-wages will matter less than supply-chain and the regulatory environment. If USA can get back the supply-chain, the USA rule-of-law environment, is probably preferable to China's rule-by-law environment.
    - linuxftw 7y ago
themagician 7y ago
Where something is made has almost no bearing on quality. There may be some loose correlations, but you will find both high quality and low quality manufacturing in the US, UK, France, China, Vietnam, Turkey, etc.. Some countries, like Japan and Germany, manufacture certain items for which the “quality” is synonymous with the item or brand itself (Leica, Japanese knives, etc.), but that’s about it. What’s more is that “Made in USA” doesn’t even really tell you much about where something is actually made. It’s more an indicator of where something is assembled. So many things that say “Made in USA” are made from 100% Chinese components and just assembled or “finished” in the US. The standard is so loosely enforced by the FTC that it’s almost meaningless. And while the language of the law about country of origin seems explicit (“all or virtually all”), it’s anything but. Even flagrant violations can often act with impunity for decades, only to be tied up in court for years more if the FTC takes action. Most companies don’t even exist long enough to get caught when they are outright lying. Globalism happened and there is no going back. Country of origin is pretty meaningless.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Cars have a section in their invoice that breaks down the value of the car’s make on a percentage basis. My Acura is around 70% by supplier/assembly standards. Perhaps the same could be done for electronics, though I wonder if anyone would really care.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
hogFeast 7y ago
It depends. If you are buying high priced stuff (i.e. Borders wool) then it is going to be high quality. What people don't realise is that in the North there are people working for 50p/£1 an hour making clothes for Primark et al (some of this isn't even branded as "Made in the UK"). So the reason quality is lower is because no-one will pay for quality anymore. These jobs go overseas or they done here under illegal/slave labour conditions (the UK is a bit like the U.S. in that there is basically no oversight of these breaches). Also the "skills" required aren't that high. That is why the jobs went to China.
- switch007 7y ago
  > So the reason quality is lower is because no-one will pay for quality anymore That's seems overly simplistic. Many people in the UK /can't/ pay for quality. I've tried to seek out quality and many times I've been bitterly disappointed. Paying for quality can be waaay above what even an above-average earner would want to pay, and with little guarantee about the quality. Is something 2-10x more expensive going to last 2-10x longer? Take carpet for example. £50-100m2 vs £15-30m2. The latter looks nice (can even get a wool mix in that price bracket) and if kept clean might last 10 years. With the former, which will probably outlast even you, you might lose money if you move, damage it or fancy a new design. It can also be just as liable to a manufacturing defect, with no promise of better customer service.
  - hogFeast 7y ago
    > Paying for quality can be waaay above what even an above-average earner would want to pay, and with little guarantee about the quality. There is your problem buddy. There are still masses of companies making high-quality products in the UK but the issue is that most Brits expect to pay the same price as Primark. It is totally illogical: why would you expect an adult in the UK to make clothes for the same wage (i.e. produce a product that costs the same) as a 9-year old in a Vietnamese sweatshop? Whether it is worth it is really up to you but I have not come across a British company making products where the extra price isn't worth it (ignoring the ethics of having small children make your clothes)...and that is why they exist. Yes, most Brits don't pay for this stuff anyway but the companies that focus on quality generally operate in areas where that premium pays (your assumption is presumably that high prices are just about corporate greed...this isn't the case). You can buy a pair of a suit shoes made by a child and they won't last very long. You can buy Church's and they will last until you die. I also don't really think most people in the UK being poor. Relative to what most UK workers produce, they are paid a fucking bomb and are able to consume (and do) almost all of their income. The issue is that they spend their money on cheap tat (this is something in the national psyche, Brits love the idea of getting something for nothing...from what I have seen, other countries will pay for high quality products).
ksec 7y ago
>and one of the things that surprised me a lot was finding out that "Made in the UK", at least for clothing, meant lower quality. Again it depends. There are lots of thing Made in UK that are extremely good but just not very well known. The Brits, may be due to their tradition and culture are just not very good at marketing. Sunpel [1] 99% made in UK and still one of the best quality clothing I have ever had. ( I think their had their first product using Spanish Cotton only in the past few years, and their explanation was it had nothing to do with Cost, it was Simply the best they could find. ) And of coz there are lots of Suit and High End Bespoke items in London, that aren't really known in general public. [1] https://www.sunspel.com/row/ https://www.sunspel.com/row/
- switch007 7y ago
  Yup, seeking quality can be a very frustrating and tiring experience. Also given that there is quite a small pool of people purchasing the products and sharing their experiences.
- user5994461 7y ago
  Tshirts for a 100, shirts for 200-300. It's not that the tradition is lost, it's that nobody can or is willing to afford that. People dress in Mark and Spencers, not in tailored suits or Channel. Even the claim of quality is dubious. Better than H&M, possibly, but who cares. In this price range the competition is all clothes in existence, including bespoke and luxury brands who can make good clothes too.
  - whenchamenia 7y ago
    If the shirt lasts 4x as long, on average, its worth nearly 4 shirts. A 25 dollar shirt is not crazy, why should 100? Its all short vs long term thinking, coupled with lack of product knowledge.
    - danpalmer 7y ago
      Yeah unfortunately not many consumers think in terms of "cost per wear", we are trying to change this at Thread!
ChicagoBoy11 7y ago
Watch American Factory on Netflix. It would support a bit of what you are saying... Not only is the glass factory in China way more efficient, at least through the end of the documentary, the quality of the Chinese glass also appears to be higher. Of course, in that case there's the confounding factor of the age of the factories which complicates the comparison, but it is all in all a very interesting documentary which looks at this exact question.
mdorazio 7y ago
This is likely tied into something I call "the tyranny of the China price". Basically, years of offshore production have set customer expectations and market-competitive pricing at a certain level. If you want to on-shore production, you have to achieve that same price point (or close to it) to sell your product. Of course, on-shore labor costs are probably going to be higher, as are rent, materials, environmental compliance, and probably a few supply chain contributions. So to meet the price point, you either have to automate everything (reduce labor cost) or cut corners on something else. In a lot of cases, that "something else" is some combination of materials quality and quality assurance. In summary, it's not that producing on-shore inherently reduces quality or that there's no domestic expertise left, it's that to maintain the same end product quality you often have to significantly increase your price point, and mass-market customers usually don't like that.
Diesel555 7y ago
Even if the US has lost its manufacturing capability and this leads to a worse quality more expensive product, it's worth it. Do we want to go down the path of not being able to produce anything and outsourcing all our products until we have no talent? Where will that leave us in a generation? I recommend reading Crouching Tiger about US China relationships. Manufacturing and sustainability is very important to war fighting capability past day X (where X is when our current inventory is attrited). So this is something those seeking our security will want regardless. The last thing to mention is about comparisons with countries which do not have the same labor laws / pollution laws. Yes, given the same assumptions they will make stuff cheaper. They don't have the same regulations. This is one reason why tariffs to help offset this imbalance (minus shipping across a gigantic ocean) are necessary - regardless of political views. Either the US has the same regulations as the competitor or they offset the difference somehow (I get it that our current tariffs are much more than that, I'm simply mentioning tariffs in general).
pergadad 7y ago
Made my Mexican immigrants in the US :-)

jonknee 7y ago

I think snapping together a tower can be done equally well anywhere in the world.

derekp7 7y ago

How much of computer manufacturing happens by hand, vs. loading the component reels on the pick and place machine and hitting the run button?

chrisan 7y ago
Well the new lovingly crafted Apple Mac Artisan coming in 2020 will be completely hand made
magduf 7y ago
That depends on what part of the manufacturing stage you're talking about. Will the MBP in TX have its printed circuit boards made there? Or will this just be a final-assembly plant, where they ship in the completed components and have some laborers screw them together so that they can claim "assembled in USA!!!"? The final assembly is likely mostly by hand, maybe using some fixtures to speed things up. PC board assembly, however, is usually automated except perhaps for larger connectors which may be hand-placed before reflow soldering. Those machines, however, cost an absolute fortune (the ones capable of the very high volume needed for consumer electronics), and are usually made in Japan or Germany, and then shipped to China or Taiwan where they're used by contract manufacturers. I would honestly be surprised if Apple actually made the MBP PCBs themselves instead of just outsourcing it to a CM like FlexTronics.
giarc 7y ago
I was surprised to see how much of the iPhone assembly was done by hand. There are videos out there showing the assembly line and it's basically humans doing each step.

weberc2 7y ago

> I closely with the fashion industry in the UK, and one of the things that surprised me a lot was finding out that "Made in the UK", at least for clothing, meant lower quality. While we used to have great manufacturing expertise, that has all been lost over the last 50+ years as manufacturing was shifted overseas. Reminds me of the IT Crowd episode with the fire extinguisher made in Great Britain. As an American, I didn't realize "made in the UK" had that reputation before watching that episode.

vinay427 7y ago
The stereotypes about British engineered and/or assembled cars (and their... "quirks") are well-known in the US, in my experience. Perhaps you've heard of those in particular?
- magduf 7y ago
  Yeah, I was about to respond with this too. British cars have been infamous for terrible reliability for a long time. It's frequently joked that Jaguars became more boring, but much more reliable, when Ford bought them.
  - user5994461 7y ago
    You mean British cars are considered bad in the US or the UK? Any imported car would be worse in the US, because additional import costs and harder to get service for compared to local ones. It doesn't necessarily mean that the car is bad as a car. For another example, French cars are among the best and most popular in France, cheaper and easier to get service for. If you asked a few people there to name some American cars, they probably wouldn't be able to.
    - cerberusss 7y ago
      European guy speaking here. I think he meant in the UK and more general, in Europe. Sometimes, it's a point of pride as well. I heard an investor guy on the radio years ago, saying he drives Ashton Martin because it looks fantastic and is unreliable -- it made driving an adventure.

magduf 7y ago

It's not just skills, it's the supply chain surrounding the manufacturing. There's several articles you can find with a quick Google search about how Apple had so much trouble finding a source for small screws for the Mac in the USA, whereas in China it was trivial to find a supplier that could provide the massive quantities needed. So building the thing in the USA will probably end up costing a lot more, not just because of US labor rates at the final assembly factory (which probably isn't that much of a factor really), but because all the logistics leading up to that point in the manufacture are now so much less efficient.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
And this is in Austin, which used to be the ideal place to make PCs only 15 years ago because of DELL and its famous “just in time” suppliers.
linuxftw 7y ago
Yeah, it's almost like trade deals completely decimated domestic manufacturing the last 3 decades and it's impossible to build things here because everything already moved overseas. All the 'little screw' suppliers went overseas or went out of business because their customers went overseas.
- genericone 7y ago
  Apple announcing they will continue to build mac pros in the USA is their signal to suppliers that they should follow them back to the USA. If the incentive to small-parts suppliers is good and the reverberating feedback are strong enough (small-suppliers bringing large suppliers, large suppliers bringing more small suppliers, rinse repeat), it'll lead other manufacturers to come back. If automation is going to take over labor, then location and labor-wages will matter less than supply-chain and the regulatory environment. If USA can get back the supply-chain, the USA rule-of-law environment, is probably preferable to China's rule-by-law environment.
  - linuxftw 7y ago

themagician 7y ago

Where something is made has almost no bearing on quality. There may be some loose correlations, but you will find both high quality and low quality manufacturing in the US, UK, France, China, Vietnam, Turkey, etc.. Some countries, like Japan and Germany, manufacture certain items for which the “quality” is synonymous with the item or brand itself (Leica, Japanese knives, etc.), but that’s about it. What’s more is that “Made in USA” doesn’t even really tell you much about where something is actually made. It’s more an indicator of where something is assembled. So many things that say “Made in USA” are made from 100% Chinese components and just assembled or “finished” in the US. The standard is so loosely enforced by the FTC that it’s almost meaningless. And while the language of the law about country of origin seems explicit (“all or virtually all”), it’s anything but. Even flagrant violations can often act with impunity for decades, only to be tied up in court for years more if the FTC takes action. Most companies don’t even exist long enough to get caught when they are outright lying. Globalism happened and there is no going back. Country of origin is pretty meaningless.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Cars have a section in their invoice that breaks down the value of the car’s make on a percentage basis. My Acura is around 70% by supplier/assembly standards. Perhaps the same could be done for electronics, though I wonder if anyone would really care.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

hogFeast 7y ago

It depends. If you are buying high priced stuff (i.e. Borders wool) then it is going to be high quality. What people don't realise is that in the North there are people working for 50p/£1 an hour making clothes for Primark et al (some of this isn't even branded as "Made in the UK"). So the reason quality is lower is because no-one will pay for quality anymore. These jobs go overseas or they done here under illegal/slave labour conditions (the UK is a bit like the U.S. in that there is basically no oversight of these breaches). Also the "skills" required aren't that high. That is why the jobs went to China.

switch007 7y ago
> So the reason quality is lower is because no-one will pay for quality anymore That's seems overly simplistic. Many people in the UK /can't/ pay for quality. I've tried to seek out quality and many times I've been bitterly disappointed. Paying for quality can be waaay above what even an above-average earner would want to pay, and with little guarantee about the quality. Is something 2-10x more expensive going to last 2-10x longer? Take carpet for example. £50-100m2 vs £15-30m2. The latter looks nice (can even get a wool mix in that price bracket) and if kept clean might last 10 years. With the former, which will probably outlast even you, you might lose money if you move, damage it or fancy a new design. It can also be just as liable to a manufacturing defect, with no promise of better customer service.
- hogFeast 7y ago
  > Paying for quality can be waaay above what even an above-average earner would want to pay, and with little guarantee about the quality. There is your problem buddy. There are still masses of companies making high-quality products in the UK but the issue is that most Brits expect to pay the same price as Primark. It is totally illogical: why would you expect an adult in the UK to make clothes for the same wage (i.e. produce a product that costs the same) as a 9-year old in a Vietnamese sweatshop? Whether it is worth it is really up to you but I have not come across a British company making products where the extra price isn't worth it (ignoring the ethics of having small children make your clothes)...and that is why they exist. Yes, most Brits don't pay for this stuff anyway but the companies that focus on quality generally operate in areas where that premium pays (your assumption is presumably that high prices are just about corporate greed...this isn't the case). You can buy a pair of a suit shoes made by a child and they won't last very long. You can buy Church's and they will last until you die. I also don't really think most people in the UK being poor. Relative to what most UK workers produce, they are paid a fucking bomb and are able to consume (and do) almost all of their income. The issue is that they spend their money on cheap tat (this is something in the national psyche, Brits love the idea of getting something for nothing...from what I have seen, other countries will pay for high quality products).

ksec 7y ago

>and one of the things that surprised me a lot was finding out that "Made in the UK", at least for clothing, meant lower quality. Again it depends. There are lots of thing Made in UK that are extremely good but just not very well known. The Brits, may be due to their tradition and culture are just not very good at marketing. Sunpel [1] 99% made in UK and still one of the best quality clothing I have ever had. ( I think their had their first product using Spanish Cotton only in the past few years, and their explanation was it had nothing to do with Cost, it was Simply the best they could find. ) And of coz there are lots of Suit and High End Bespoke items in London, that aren't really known in general public. [1] https://www.sunspel.com/row/ https://www.sunspel.com/row/

switch007 7y ago
Yup, seeking quality can be a very frustrating and tiring experience. Also given that there is quite a small pool of people purchasing the products and sharing their experiences.
user5994461 7y ago
Tshirts for a 100, shirts for 200-300. It's not that the tradition is lost, it's that nobody can or is willing to afford that. People dress in Mark and Spencers, not in tailored suits or Channel. Even the claim of quality is dubious. Better than H&M, possibly, but who cares. In this price range the competition is all clothes in existence, including bespoke and luxury brands who can make good clothes too.
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  If the shirt lasts 4x as long, on average, its worth nearly 4 shirts. A 25 dollar shirt is not crazy, why should 100? Its all short vs long term thinking, coupled with lack of product knowledge.
  - danpalmer 7y ago
    Yeah unfortunately not many consumers think in terms of "cost per wear", we are trying to change this at Thread!

ChicagoBoy11 7y ago

Watch American Factory on Netflix. It would support a bit of what you are saying... Not only is the glass factory in China way more efficient, at least through the end of the documentary, the quality of the Chinese glass also appears to be higher. Of course, in that case there's the confounding factor of the age of the factories which complicates the comparison, but it is all in all a very interesting documentary which looks at this exact question.

mdorazio 7y ago

This is likely tied into something I call "the tyranny of the China price". Basically, years of offshore production have set customer expectations and market-competitive pricing at a certain level. If you want to on-shore production, you have to achieve that same price point (or close to it) to sell your product. Of course, on-shore labor costs are probably going to be higher, as are rent, materials, environmental compliance, and probably a few supply chain contributions. So to meet the price point, you either have to automate everything (reduce labor cost) or cut corners on something else. In a lot of cases, that "something else" is some combination of materials quality and quality assurance. In summary, it's not that producing on-shore inherently reduces quality or that there's no domestic expertise left, it's that to maintain the same end product quality you often have to significantly increase your price point, and mass-market customers usually don't like that.

Diesel555 7y ago

Even if the US has lost its manufacturing capability and this leads to a worse quality more expensive product, it's worth it. Do we want to go down the path of not being able to produce anything and outsourcing all our products until we have no talent? Where will that leave us in a generation? I recommend reading Crouching Tiger about US China relationships. Manufacturing and sustainability is very important to war fighting capability past day X (where X is when our current inventory is attrited). So this is something those seeking our security will want regardless. The last thing to mention is about comparisons with countries which do not have the same labor laws / pollution laws. Yes, given the same assumptions they will make stuff cheaper. They don't have the same regulations. This is one reason why tariffs to help offset this imbalance (minus shipping across a gigantic ocean) are necessary - regardless of political views. Either the US has the same regulations as the competitor or they offset the difference somehow (I get it that our current tariffs are much more than that, I'm simply mentioning tariffs in general).

pergadad 7y ago

Made my Mexican immigrants in the US :-)