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> Customers at a hotel in Tunisia reported being locked in by security guards as the hotel demanded extra money, fearing it would not be paid by Thomas Cook. T

> Customers at a hotel in Tunisia reported being locked in by security guards as the hotel demanded extra money, fearing it would not be paid by Thomas Cook. This is quite bad behaviour from the hotel. Presumably their business relationship is with Thomas Cook, not the people on holidays? They went as far as grabbing people who jumped a wall in an attempt to get out! More details here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49787563 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49787563 The hotel is this one, maybe one to avoid: "Les Orangers resort in Hammamet, near Tunis."

mhandley 7y ago
Don't hotels realise this is a reputation business? In the age of the Internet, no-one with access to TripAdvisor or Google will ever stay there again. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the hotel change name in the next year, if they survive. But perhaps worse that that, a hotel behaving like this, and not being slapped down hard by the Tunisian authorities, will damage the entire Tunisian tourism industry, just as they were recovering from the 2015 hotel attack there.
- hnarn 7y ago
  > Don't hotels realise this is a reputation business? I would say that the facts presented above answer that question for you.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Indeed. What reputation? A lot of tourists are shopping for price, the only reputation that matters is that of the booking site they use - the visitors want to trust that the site doesn't peddle total low-end garbage. Hotels are a commodity.
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      I took some package tours back in the day: you could get a good deal by not knowing where you would end up. Thomas Cook, or whoever, booked you in to a resort for a given price and put you in one of "their" hotels. Reputation of the individual hotels was not an issue, only of the travel company. Which is kinda how it should be -- why use a travel company and do all the legwork yourself, that would be like going to a restaurant and then checking the suppliers when choosing a dish off the menu.
- csomar 7y ago
  > Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the hotel change name in the next year, if they survive. It won't change its name. The reason they are still in business is that they are so dirt cheap. They are known in the area and avoided by almost everybody except for these "tours" and the uninformed. > But perhaps worse that that, a hotel behaving like this, and not being slapped down hard by the Tunisian authorities, will damage the entire Tunisian tourism industry It's already damaged. The tourism industry is a joke and the receipts are laughable comparing to other countries (Morocco or Egypt). Just a week before protesters were able to blockade a main road in the capital and cause a gridlock for several hours lasting until late-night.
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    > Just a week before protesters were able to blockade a main road in the capital and cause a gridlock for several hours lasting until late-night. Protesters cause gridlock in countries like England, Germany or Canada too. (Google for Uber-related taxi protests.)
    - baud147258 7y ago
      Add France to that list too.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Anonymity works great until you inspire someone with the time and means to make it their hobby to inform others about your existence. Holding someone "hostage" like that, can be a pretty stressful event for anybody. You put some claustrophobic people into that situation and we've escalated things to traumatized. A traumatized person could easily blow this up into vendetta.
- rythie 7y ago
  Not just bad reputation, it's against the law in many countries. It's given as example of the False imprisonment wikipedia page [1]: "The detention of a customer by a business owner (e.g., hotel operator, apartment owner, credit card company) for the failure to pay a bill." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment
  - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
    I'd be interested to know if this is illegal in (specifically) Tunisia. The closest parallels I can think of are the "mechanic's lien"[0] from English Common Law, or "debtors' prison"[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien#Creation_and_enforcement_%E2%80%93_personal_property https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien#Creation_and... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison
arthurfm 7y ago
The Guardian article mentions that hotels have to wait up to 3 months to be paid by the holiday company. I can see why the Tunisian hotel did what they did, but you are correct that their business relationship is with Thomas Cook, not the holidaymakers. Meanwhile, Thomas Cook holidaymakers were anxious that they might be evicted from their hotels or charged again for their holidays. Holiday companies do not normally pay hotels until up to 90 days after guests have left. Do hotels typically have insurance that covers situations like this?
- kitd 7y ago
  British travel agents that belong to ABTA, the national association, should have emergencies like this covered by insurance, so the money is there. This is basically the nightmare scenario for a travel agent so you would think ABTA has an emergency process all set up and ready to go.
  - warrenmiller 7y ago
    There is ATOL protection but there's only approx £18 million in the fund. £200 million is needed to pay everyone out.
    - Already__Taken 7y ago
      Where do you get numbers like that from and hows the scheme funded by design?
      - tialaramex 7y ago
        The UK requires that any outfit selling flights where you pay them and they promise to sort everything out, rather than they just execute and you get a bunch of tickets, passes etcetera in exchange for your money - joins ATOL and pays a small fee for every such holiday sold. That fee is held by a central organisation that spends the money to fix things when one of these companies collapses, in particular to make sure all the random Brits abroad get put on a plane home. It exists because the seasonal nature of the business means it's very common (routine in fact: https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Make-an-ATOL-claim/Latest-ATOL-holder-failures/ https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Make-an-ATOL-claim/Lat...) for small outfits to go bankrupt, and otherwise their customers get stuck and then the government has to either suffer terrible headlines about why didn't they do anything, or spend money flying home idiots who took a bad gamble. The account is certainly too small to cover Thomas Cook. But on the other hand, even just having the mechanism in place means the government has a pre-existing organisation to say "OK, fix this, but we understand you don't have the money so we'll pay" rather than trying to cobble something together only now. /Maybe/ this experience will mean the fee is subsequently increased for new holidays. But my guess would be that's unpalatable and the argument will be made that a failure of this scale is not something the rest of the industry should anticipate and fund, whereas the constant drip of smaller failed travel companies is predictable. Compare the 2008 financial crisis. There's a much stronger protection for banks in the UK called "Last man standing". In principle the government can allow banks to fail, and remaining licensed banks pick up the entire cost. This is indeed what happens for small banks. However in practice of course allowing even a single very large bank to collapse might be so disruptive that it's intolerable regardless of whether you believe the other banks can afford to pay for the aftermath.
Scoundreller 7y ago
I found this quote from the Guardian: > Those buses that arrived to transport holidaymakers to the airport at Enfidha were turned away by security, Orangers guests told the Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/22/thomas-cook-holidaymakers-kept-inside-tunisia-hotel-over-unpaid-bill-fears https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/22/thomas-cook...
interdrift 7y ago
In general just avoid going to such countries lol
- growlist 7y ago
  Easy throw away comment to make but don't forget lots of honest people in Tunisia are trying to make a living out of tourism, and from a selfish point of view having been to Tunisia there is loads of good stuff to see.
  - leokennis 7y ago
    My experience is based on Egypt tourism. I'm not saying the people themselves aren't honest (in their private lives) but once there's money on the line, all honesty and nicety is out of the window immediately Begging, intense heckling, not taking no for an answer, rudely pushing upsells, sowing FOD to make an extra buck...
    - chatmasta 7y ago
      This is the case in nearly every developing country. It’s the same in developed countries, except instead of haggling, the menu at the tourist restaurant just says £18 for a burger. Personally I have no problem paying a tourist premium in developing countries. One could even argue that “westerners” have a moral obligation to pay more for the same service, in exchange for all the advantages afforded to us by the exchange rate.
    - growlist 7y ago
      I found Morocco worse than Tunisia on this aspect, tbh.
  - sligor 7y ago
    Let's see how the authorities react to such hostage-taking. If they do nothing quickly then, yes, it is a very bad thing for the country notoriety
    - 7y ago
buboard 7y ago
That's completely ridiculous behavior. If anything, they should lock them OUT of the hotel
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  It's the classic I've seen used in jokes and comic strips - entry is free; once you enter, you discover that leaving costs money.
  - dmurray 7y ago
    Also a popular one in certain Eastern European nightclubs.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    That's normal in the service industry, or in shops, for example. You get what you want, then pay on leaving. If you don't pay they detain you. Try leaving your local restaurant without someone paying for the food. They won't care if you paid your friend for the meal and he kept the money.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Fair. <facepalm>. A perfect example of a cognitive blind spot on my end. Incidentally, lower-end restaurants tend to be "pay before you eat", just like fast food joints. I honestly prefer it that way; saves the cognitive burden and a lot of time (sometimes waiting for a waiter to come with the receipt can take as much time as it took to eat the food).
konschubert 7y ago
That’s hostage - taking, no?
- mcv 7y ago
  I have no idea whether this is illegal in Tunisia, but it definitely should be. I hope the hotel gets slapped down hard for this. Let the person who made that call do some time in prison.
- Someone 7y ago
  Could also be citizen’s arrest, but there a risk a judge will call it that, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#Legal_and_political_aspects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#Legal_and_p...: ”A person who makes a citizen's arrest could risk exposing him or herself to possible lawsuits or criminal charges – such as charges of false imprisonment, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest – if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated.[4] This is especially true when police forces are attempting to determine who an aggressor is. Private citizens do not enjoy the same immunity from civil liability when making arrests on other private citizens as do police officers.“
ezoe 7y ago
It's between a hotel and Thomas Cook's problem. Thomas Cook book the hotel. Hotel promised to allocate a room for Thomas Cook. Thomas Cook will pay the hotel fee. Hotel receive the fee from Thomas Cook. The customer who actually use the hotel owes nothing from the hotel. The same goes for Airlines. It's a textbook example really.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Except Thomas Cook is out of business and you need a place to sleep or a way to get home. Whatever the legal niceties that may be resolved or not over the next few years, sort of makes it your problem.
tssva 7y ago
I had something similar happen in Germany in the mid 90's. I was traveling for business and stayed at a hotel which my employer had an account with. My employer was evidently late paying the account. When I and a co-worker went to checkout they wouldn't let us leave until our employer wired them money to settle the full balance of the account. As in this case the local police sided with the hotel.

mhandley 7y ago

Don't hotels realise this is a reputation business? In the age of the Internet, no-one with access to TripAdvisor or Google will ever stay there again. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the hotel change name in the next year, if they survive. But perhaps worse that that, a hotel behaving like this, and not being slapped down hard by the Tunisian authorities, will damage the entire Tunisian tourism industry, just as they were recovering from the 2015 hotel attack there.

hnarn 7y ago
> Don't hotels realise this is a reputation business? I would say that the facts presented above answer that question for you.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Indeed. What reputation? A lot of tourists are shopping for price, the only reputation that matters is that of the booking site they use - the visitors want to trust that the site doesn't peddle total low-end garbage. Hotels are a commodity.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    I took some package tours back in the day: you could get a good deal by not knowing where you would end up. Thomas Cook, or whoever, booked you in to a resort for a given price and put you in one of "their" hotels. Reputation of the individual hotels was not an issue, only of the travel company. Which is kinda how it should be -- why use a travel company and do all the legwork yourself, that would be like going to a restaurant and then checking the suppliers when choosing a dish off the menu.
csomar 7y ago
> Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the hotel change name in the next year, if they survive. It won't change its name. The reason they are still in business is that they are so dirt cheap. They are known in the area and avoided by almost everybody except for these "tours" and the uninformed. > But perhaps worse that that, a hotel behaving like this, and not being slapped down hard by the Tunisian authorities, will damage the entire Tunisian tourism industry It's already damaged. The tourism industry is a joke and the receipts are laughable comparing to other countries (Morocco or Egypt). Just a week before protesters were able to blockade a main road in the capital and cause a gridlock for several hours lasting until late-night.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  > Just a week before protesters were able to blockade a main road in the capital and cause a gridlock for several hours lasting until late-night. Protesters cause gridlock in countries like England, Germany or Canada too. (Google for Uber-related taxi protests.)
  - baud147258 7y ago
    Add France to that list too.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Anonymity works great until you inspire someone with the time and means to make it their hobby to inform others about your existence. Holding someone "hostage" like that, can be a pretty stressful event for anybody. You put some claustrophobic people into that situation and we've escalated things to traumatized. A traumatized person could easily blow this up into vendetta.
rythie 7y ago
Not just bad reputation, it's against the law in many countries. It's given as example of the False imprisonment wikipedia page [1]: "The detention of a customer by a business owner (e.g., hotel operator, apartment owner, credit card company) for the failure to pay a bill." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  I'd be interested to know if this is illegal in (specifically) Tunisia. The closest parallels I can think of are the "mechanic's lien"[0] from English Common Law, or "debtors' prison"[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien#Creation_and_enforcement_%E2%80%93_personal_property https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic%27s_lien#Creation_and... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison

arthurfm 7y ago

The Guardian article mentions that hotels have to wait up to 3 months to be paid by the holiday company. I can see why the Tunisian hotel did what they did, but you are correct that their business relationship is with Thomas Cook, not the holidaymakers. Meanwhile, Thomas Cook holidaymakers were anxious that they might be evicted from their hotels or charged again for their holidays. Holiday companies do not normally pay hotels until up to 90 days after guests have left. Do hotels typically have insurance that covers situations like this?

kitd 7y ago
British travel agents that belong to ABTA, the national association, should have emergencies like this covered by insurance, so the money is there. This is basically the nightmare scenario for a travel agent so you would think ABTA has an emergency process all set up and ready to go.
- warrenmiller 7y ago
  There is ATOL protection but there's only approx £18 million in the fund. £200 million is needed to pay everyone out.
  - Already__Taken 7y ago
    Where do you get numbers like that from and hows the scheme funded by design?
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      The UK requires that any outfit selling flights where you pay them and they promise to sort everything out, rather than they just execute and you get a bunch of tickets, passes etcetera in exchange for your money - joins ATOL and pays a small fee for every such holiday sold. That fee is held by a central organisation that spends the money to fix things when one of these companies collapses, in particular to make sure all the random Brits abroad get put on a plane home. It exists because the seasonal nature of the business means it's very common (routine in fact: https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Make-an-ATOL-claim/Latest-ATOL-holder-failures/ https://www.caa.co.uk/ATOL-protection/Make-an-ATOL-claim/Lat...) for small outfits to go bankrupt, and otherwise their customers get stuck and then the government has to either suffer terrible headlines about why didn't they do anything, or spend money flying home idiots who took a bad gamble. The account is certainly too small to cover Thomas Cook. But on the other hand, even just having the mechanism in place means the government has a pre-existing organisation to say "OK, fix this, but we understand you don't have the money so we'll pay" rather than trying to cobble something together only now. /Maybe/ this experience will mean the fee is subsequently increased for new holidays. But my guess would be that's unpalatable and the argument will be made that a failure of this scale is not something the rest of the industry should anticipate and fund, whereas the constant drip of smaller failed travel companies is predictable. Compare the 2008 financial crisis. There's a much stronger protection for banks in the UK called "Last man standing". In principle the government can allow banks to fail, and remaining licensed banks pick up the entire cost. This is indeed what happens for small banks. However in practice of course allowing even a single very large bank to collapse might be so disruptive that it's intolerable regardless of whether you believe the other banks can afford to pay for the aftermath.

Scoundreller 7y ago

I found this quote from the Guardian: > Those buses that arrived to transport holidaymakers to the airport at Enfidha were turned away by security, Orangers guests told the Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/22/thomas-cook-holidaymakers-kept-inside-tunisia-hotel-over-unpaid-bill-fears https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/22/thomas-cook...

interdrift 7y ago

In general just avoid going to such countries lol

growlist 7y ago
Easy throw away comment to make but don't forget lots of honest people in Tunisia are trying to make a living out of tourism, and from a selfish point of view having been to Tunisia there is loads of good stuff to see.
- leokennis 7y ago
  My experience is based on Egypt tourism. I'm not saying the people themselves aren't honest (in their private lives) but once there's money on the line, all honesty and nicety is out of the window immediately Begging, intense heckling, not taking no for an answer, rudely pushing upsells, sowing FOD to make an extra buck...
  - chatmasta 7y ago
    This is the case in nearly every developing country. It’s the same in developed countries, except instead of haggling, the menu at the tourist restaurant just says £18 for a burger. Personally I have no problem paying a tourist premium in developing countries. One could even argue that “westerners” have a moral obligation to pay more for the same service, in exchange for all the advantages afforded to us by the exchange rate.
  - growlist 7y ago
    I found Morocco worse than Tunisia on this aspect, tbh.
- sligor 7y ago
  Let's see how the authorities react to such hostage-taking. If they do nothing quickly then, yes, it is a very bad thing for the country notoriety
  - 7y ago

buboard 7y ago

That's completely ridiculous behavior. If anything, they should lock them OUT of the hotel

TeMPOraL 7y ago
It's the classic I've seen used in jokes and comic strips - entry is free; once you enter, you discover that leaving costs money.
- dmurray 7y ago
  Also a popular one in certain Eastern European nightclubs.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  That's normal in the service industry, or in shops, for example. You get what you want, then pay on leaving. If you don't pay they detain you. Try leaving your local restaurant without someone paying for the food. They won't care if you paid your friend for the meal and he kept the money.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Fair. <facepalm>. A perfect example of a cognitive blind spot on my end. Incidentally, lower-end restaurants tend to be "pay before you eat", just like fast food joints. I honestly prefer it that way; saves the cognitive burden and a lot of time (sometimes waiting for a waiter to come with the receipt can take as much time as it took to eat the food).

konschubert 7y ago

That’s hostage - taking, no?

mcv 7y ago
I have no idea whether this is illegal in Tunisia, but it definitely should be. I hope the hotel gets slapped down hard for this. Let the person who made that call do some time in prison.
Someone 7y ago
Could also be citizen’s arrest, but there a risk a judge will call it that, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#Legal_and_political_aspects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#Legal_and_p...: ”A person who makes a citizen's arrest could risk exposing him or herself to possible lawsuits or criminal charges – such as charges of false imprisonment, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest – if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated.[4] This is especially true when police forces are attempting to determine who an aggressor is. Private citizens do not enjoy the same immunity from civil liability when making arrests on other private citizens as do police officers.“

ezoe 7y ago

It's between a hotel and Thomas Cook's problem. Thomas Cook book the hotel. Hotel promised to allocate a room for Thomas Cook. Thomas Cook will pay the hotel fee. Hotel receive the fee from Thomas Cook. The customer who actually use the hotel owes nothing from the hotel. The same goes for Airlines. It's a textbook example really.

ghaff 7y ago
Except Thomas Cook is out of business and you need a place to sleep or a way to get home. Whatever the legal niceties that may be resolved or not over the next few years, sort of makes it your problem.

tssva 7y ago

I had something similar happen in Germany in the mid 90's. I was traveling for business and stayed at a hotel which my employer had an account with. My employer was evidently late paying the account. When I and a co-worker went to checkout they wouldn't let us leave until our employer wired them money to settle the full balance of the account. As in this case the local police sided with the hotel.