14 ms·

Psychological Effects of a 1-Month Meditation Retreat

89 points by idclip 7y ago

Retric 7y ago
“any of the mindfulness courses given by our group during the last 3 years” This is exactly the kind of bias that makes a study questionable. Is there any good literature tracking such issues, or list of studies with such problems?
surfsvammel 7y ago
I don’t get it. What did the control group do? Did they go on a retreat of some kind? Or did they just go on with their normal stressful lives of picking up at daycare, commuting through traffic jams and passive aggressiveness of laundry rooms? I would like to see the effect of the meditation itself.
- elcomet 7y ago
  > The control group was asked not to participate in any retreat (even as short as a 1-day retreat) during the 1-month study period. Their usual daily meditation practice was maintained (40–50 min/session).
  - kdmccormick 7y ago
    Oh, so this isn't even meditation vs. non-meditation... it's being in your day-to-day life vs. being away from it. I'd like to see the long-term effects of a month-long meditation retreat vs. a month-long Carribean getaway, or something similar. I'm saying this as someone who appreciates meditation.
    - mettamage 7y ago
      I know this is scientifically hard, but in spirit I would want to know the following: Meditation vs do whatever makes you feel the happiest, as you see fit
      - i_cant_speel 7y ago
        It would be difficult to allow people to actually do what makes them happiest vs doing what the can do to make themselves happy within the limitations of their life situations.
    - amelius 7y ago
      Still the study is useful if your budget doesn't allow for an expensive holiday.
    - cmg 7y ago
      I wasn't able to find any reference to wealth or income, either. People who have the ability to do a one-month retreat end up with better mental health - is this surprising?
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    So big fucking surprise. Getting away from your life for a month is good for your mental health. Why the fuck are people kicking in open doors being funded and published in what appears to be a decently respectable psychology journal?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 7y ago
  Also all these studies focus only on Buddhist meditation which is just one form of meditation. There are earlier, more diverse and more intense forms of meditation (e.g. Hindu meditation) that many researchers unscientifically ignore due to their theological roots. Almost all of these studies need better ablation experiments, similar alternatives, better controls and baselines.
hello_tyler 7y ago
20 person study of people who already practice meditation is pretty much worthless.
lukaa 7y ago
First of all I have to say that i despise calling something scientific work that is clearly way more subjective than mesaurable like science. For example question: does this engine spend less fuel than one before is clear way to show was that invention good or not, do you have better wellbeing after some treatment is completely open for placebo effect and can't be in same category. IMO meditation 'science' if it ever wants to be true science should concentrate on mesaurable mental qualities like IQ and memory. So true science question should be: how large is your IQ score before and after meditation retreat or how much you can remember things in 2 min before and after. Everything other is not science and is higly debatable. Honestly I'm quite suprised that engineers spend so much time on so unproved technique to increase quality of their work and life.
- teyc 7y ago
  You are misinformed. The tools for measuring brain changes are getting better and more precise. We now have tools to measure brain activity, gray matter thickness, stress levels, and these reports are as good as measuring NO2 from engine exhaust. There's so much literature around this, it just knocks your karma if you spout ignorance just because you choose not to look.
  - lukaa 7y ago
    ”There is a common misperception in public and government domains that compelling clinical evidence exists for the broad and strong efficacy of mindfulness as a therapeutic intervention,” a group of 15 scholars wrote in a recent article entitled Mind the Hype. The reality is that mindfulness-based therapies have shown “a mixture of only moderate, low or no efficacy, depending on the disorder being treated,” the scholars wrote, citing a 2014 meta-analysis commissioned by the US Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5758421/#!po=0.209205 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5758421/#!po=0....
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Yeah, that study is pretty worthless but anecdotally, I have been to a similar retreat and even though it was only 10 days, it was totally worth it. 10 days of not talking to anyone, meditating everyday in a group, sleeping with a schedule, eating clean, being away from acquaintances, away from smartphones, social media or electronic distractions, away from shopping and ads, away from the soulless job and the crushing commute meant I could no longer ignore or drown out those thoughts in my head keeping me up at night and I had to consume them so they no longer haunt me. The effects were long lasting, better than what I got from meditating at home with the aid of apps, but only if you commit to living a healthy lifestyle after. If you go back to eating junk and swiping on Instagram at 2 A.M, it's on you. Would recommend you give it a try of you can.
- mettamage 7y ago
  What does that mean? I have been to a retreat or two, as my name implies, but I wouldn’t know what it means to consume one’s thoughts during a retreat.
  - cube2222 7y ago
    It means accepting and letting go of stressful thoughts, insecurities which have been chronically keeping you up at night or worrying you unnecessarily.
    - AllegedAlec 7y ago
      That's the idea, sure. Is that also what happens in practice though? I can easily imagine that if you're not being distracted on all sides constantly, those crippling insecurities and chronic stress all come into focus, because there's nothing else to think about.
      - mettamage 7y ago
        For me, I started thinking in loops and got completely derailed. I became a bit manic, a bit depressed and a bit psychotic. There was also 2 hours of pure evil and 2 hours of equanimous love (which is awesome). I learned from these experiences that I am not my thoughts as I couldn’t identify with all of them, yet I kept thinking them. I also learned a lot about myself in general at the time. Ultimately, the whole experience was really educational. But at the same time, it was as crazy as a psychedelic trip yet much deeper. But I don’t feel I experienced that I consumed my thoughts. If anything, I saw how I thought. I saw how I’m smart and how I’m crazy. And how being social keeps me sane since it breaks the loop.
rblion 7y ago
I plan on going to one in 2020, trying to make the arrangements as we speak.
rasengan0 7y ago
Studies like these are great for the popsci filter bubble, not so great for establishing credibility. I'm biased and believe in contemplation as an overall life sustaining practice. Lovely checklist: - controlled, non-randomized - small sample size - validation by industry standard made up surveys and scales named with stupid acronyms - super terrific vague conclusion: "A 1-month Vipassana meditation retreat seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality, even in experienced meditators." Imagine all the money and effort to get this published. Earth to researchers: eating avocado toast in 108 seconds seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality.
programmertote 7y ago
Just a personal anecdote. I was born in a family of Theravada Buddhist parents. My late dad was an avid meditator. He'd go on week-long retreats to meditate at least a couple of times a year, and my mom also does similar. I tried meditating a little and gave up because I personally found that I am not able to stick to a routine (like meditate every day for 15 minutes). As I grow old, I became an atheist and read a lot of philosophy. I picked up stoicism and parts and pieces of everything I liked from reading. I use them to be self-aware and always try to see things as if they are impermanent. That really helps me calm down in stressful situations and be content with my life in a lot of ways. I do not meditate because I don't have the discipline, but I feel like I found my inner peace and live a pretty content, minimalist life. I have a friend from home country who works in wall streets. She went to Princeton and is pretty high up there in management echelon. She has a fierce and competitive personality. She would always encourage me to go on meditation retreats in MA (Massachusetts), and she goes there pretty often. She also goes to a meditation group who meet near Times Square every few weeks. But you know what, I found her life to be miserable. She has had at least two mental breakdowns that I know of. She is always inquisitive of what I am doing, what job I have, how much I make at the moment whenever I see her. In my mind, I wanted to tell her, "Sister (a way of addressing someone older with respect in my culture), you're always stressed out and need meditation therapy because you are always worried about what/how others are doing. Meditation wouldn't help you much if you keep doing this." But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that. I think I see a lot of meditation posts in HN because people here are chasing a lot of things at the same time. In other words, people here tend to be over-achievers and ambitious. I am not one, and I'm okay without meditation. I always try to take middle-path (that is the core of Buddhist teaching from my understanding) if I can; limit my wants and only try to fill my essential needs; try to always judge myself as a human (with needs/wants) first and then from a third person's point of view (to be self-aware so that I can control myself when I'm too upset/having a bad day); and in general, I just try to reduce as much "ah-ku-tho" (bad karma including greed, envy, anxiety, anger, etc.) as I can from my daily life. Hope this lengthy post is interesting to some.
- keyle 7y ago
  > But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that. Maybe she needs to hear it. The key is to get her to ask herself questions, rather than telling. It's best done by suggestions and questions that prompts thoughts. If you tell a hamster there is no point running so hard in the wheel, it will probably run harder.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

89 points by idclip 7y ago

“any of the mindfulness courses given by our group during the last 3 years” This is exactly the kind of bias that makes a study questionable. Is there any good literature tracking such issues, or list of studies with such problems?

surfsvammel 7y ago

I don’t get it. What did the control group do? Did they go on a retreat of some kind? Or did they just go on with their normal stressful lives of picking up at daycare, commuting through traffic jams and passive aggressiveness of laundry rooms? I would like to see the effect of the meditation itself.

elcomet 7y ago
> The control group was asked not to participate in any retreat (even as short as a 1-day retreat) during the 1-month study period. Their usual daily meditation practice was maintained (40–50 min/session).
- kdmccormick 7y ago
  Oh, so this isn't even meditation vs. non-meditation... it's being in your day-to-day life vs. being away from it. I'd like to see the long-term effects of a month-long meditation retreat vs. a month-long Carribean getaway, or something similar. I'm saying this as someone who appreciates meditation.
  - mettamage 7y ago
    I know this is scientifically hard, but in spirit I would want to know the following: Meditation vs do whatever makes you feel the happiest, as you see fit
    - i_cant_speel 7y ago
      It would be difficult to allow people to actually do what makes them happiest vs doing what the can do to make themselves happy within the limitations of their life situations.
  - amelius 7y ago
    Still the study is useful if your budget doesn't allow for an expensive holiday.
  - cmg 7y ago
    I wasn't able to find any reference to wealth or income, either. People who have the ability to do a one-month retreat end up with better mental health - is this surprising?
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  So big fucking surprise. Getting away from your life for a month is good for your mental health. Why the fuck are people kicking in open doors being funded and published in what appears to be a decently respectable psychology journal?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cscurmudgeon 7y ago
Also all these studies focus only on Buddhist meditation which is just one form of meditation. There are earlier, more diverse and more intense forms of meditation (e.g. Hindu meditation) that many researchers unscientifically ignore due to their theological roots. Almost all of these studies need better ablation experiments, similar alternatives, better controls and baselines.

hello_tyler 7y ago

20 person study of people who already practice meditation is pretty much worthless.

lukaa 7y ago

First of all I have to say that i despise calling something scientific work that is clearly way more subjective than mesaurable like science. For example question: does this engine spend less fuel than one before is clear way to show was that invention good or not, do you have better wellbeing after some treatment is completely open for placebo effect and can't be in same category. IMO meditation 'science' if it ever wants to be true science should concentrate on mesaurable mental qualities like IQ and memory. So true science question should be: how large is your IQ score before and after meditation retreat or how much you can remember things in 2 min before and after. Everything other is not science and is higly debatable. Honestly I'm quite suprised that engineers spend so much time on so unproved technique to increase quality of their work and life.

teyc 7y ago
You are misinformed. The tools for measuring brain changes are getting better and more precise. We now have tools to measure brain activity, gray matter thickness, stress levels, and these reports are as good as measuring NO2 from engine exhaust. There's so much literature around this, it just knocks your karma if you spout ignorance just because you choose not to look.
- lukaa 7y ago
  ”There is a common misperception in public and government domains that compelling clinical evidence exists for the broad and strong efficacy of mindfulness as a therapeutic intervention,” a group of 15 scholars wrote in a recent article entitled Mind the Hype. The reality is that mindfulness-based therapies have shown “a mixture of only moderate, low or no efficacy, depending on the disorder being treated,” the scholars wrote, citing a 2014 meta-analysis commissioned by the US Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5758421/#!po=0.209205 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5758421/#!po=0....

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

Yeah, that study is pretty worthless but anecdotally, I have been to a similar retreat and even though it was only 10 days, it was totally worth it. 10 days of not talking to anyone, meditating everyday in a group, sleeping with a schedule, eating clean, being away from acquaintances, away from smartphones, social media or electronic distractions, away from shopping and ads, away from the soulless job and the crushing commute meant I could no longer ignore or drown out those thoughts in my head keeping me up at night and I had to consume them so they no longer haunt me. The effects were long lasting, better than what I got from meditating at home with the aid of apps, but only if you commit to living a healthy lifestyle after. If you go back to eating junk and swiping on Instagram at 2 A.M, it's on you. Would recommend you give it a try of you can.

mettamage 7y ago
What does that mean? I have been to a retreat or two, as my name implies, but I wouldn’t know what it means to consume one’s thoughts during a retreat.
- cube2222 7y ago
  It means accepting and letting go of stressful thoughts, insecurities which have been chronically keeping you up at night or worrying you unnecessarily.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    That's the idea, sure. Is that also what happens in practice though? I can easily imagine that if you're not being distracted on all sides constantly, those crippling insecurities and chronic stress all come into focus, because there's nothing else to think about.
    - mettamage 7y ago
      For me, I started thinking in loops and got completely derailed. I became a bit manic, a bit depressed and a bit psychotic. There was also 2 hours of pure evil and 2 hours of equanimous love (which is awesome). I learned from these experiences that I am not my thoughts as I couldn’t identify with all of them, yet I kept thinking them. I also learned a lot about myself in general at the time. Ultimately, the whole experience was really educational. But at the same time, it was as crazy as a psychedelic trip yet much deeper. But I don’t feel I experienced that I consumed my thoughts. If anything, I saw how I thought. I saw how I’m smart and how I’m crazy. And how being social keeps me sane since it breaks the loop.

rblion 7y ago

I plan on going to one in 2020, trying to make the arrangements as we speak.

rasengan0 7y ago

Studies like these are great for the popsci filter bubble, not so great for establishing credibility. I'm biased and believe in contemplation as an overall life sustaining practice. Lovely checklist: - controlled, non-randomized - small sample size - validation by industry standard made up surveys and scales named with stupid acronyms - super terrific vague conclusion: "A 1-month Vipassana meditation retreat seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality, even in experienced meditators." Imagine all the money and effort to get this published. Earth to researchers: eating avocado toast in 108 seconds seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality.

programmertote 7y ago

Just a personal anecdote. I was born in a family of Theravada Buddhist parents. My late dad was an avid meditator. He'd go on week-long retreats to meditate at least a couple of times a year, and my mom also does similar. I tried meditating a little and gave up because I personally found that I am not able to stick to a routine (like meditate every day for 15 minutes). As I grow old, I became an atheist and read a lot of philosophy. I picked up stoicism and parts and pieces of everything I liked from reading. I use them to be self-aware and always try to see things as if they are impermanent. That really helps me calm down in stressful situations and be content with my life in a lot of ways. I do not meditate because I don't have the discipline, but I feel like I found my inner peace and live a pretty content, minimalist life. I have a friend from home country who works in wall streets. She went to Princeton and is pretty high up there in management echelon. She has a fierce and competitive personality. She would always encourage me to go on meditation retreats in MA (Massachusetts), and she goes there pretty often. She also goes to a meditation group who meet near Times Square every few weeks. But you know what, I found her life to be miserable. She has had at least two mental breakdowns that I know of. She is always inquisitive of what I am doing, what job I have, how much I make at the moment whenever I see her. In my mind, I wanted to tell her, "Sister (a way of addressing someone older with respect in my culture), you're always stressed out and need meditation therapy because you are always worried about what/how others are doing. Meditation wouldn't help you much if you keep doing this." But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that. I think I see a lot of meditation posts in HN because people here are chasing a lot of things at the same time. In other words, people here tend to be over-achievers and ambitious. I am not one, and I'm okay without meditation. I always try to take middle-path (that is the core of Buddhist teaching from my understanding) if I can; limit my wants and only try to fill my essential needs; try to always judge myself as a human (with needs/wants) first and then from a third person's point of view (to be self-aware so that I can control myself when I'm too upset/having a bad day); and in general, I just try to reduce as much "ah-ku-tho" (bad karma including greed, envy, anxiety, anger, etc.) as I can from my daily life. Hope this lengthy post is interesting to some.

keyle 7y ago
> But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that. Maybe she needs to hear it. The key is to get her to ask herself questions, rather than telling. It's best done by suggestions and questions that prompts thoughts. If you tell a hamster there is no point running so hard in the wheel, it will probably run harder.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]