16 ms·

Microsoft is just on a roll when it comes to open source. - Windows Terminal is pretty solid, and fast. Dare I say, nearing rxvt-unicode/kitty speed. There are

by tony 7y ago

Microsoft is just on a roll when it comes to open source. - Windows Terminal is pretty solid, and fast. Dare I say, nearing rxvt-unicode/kitty speed. There are some remaining terminal corruption with tmux + vim sessions, but soon enough it'll be replacing hyper/conemu for me. - WSL 2 alleviates file system issues that plagued WSL. I recently wiped debian off my Thinkpad because there's no point, I get everything I need from WSL 2. And I can start to dabble with learning C# / Visual Studio. - https://github.com/microsoft/AirSim https://github.com/microsoft/AirSim This thing, which has support for Unity and Unreal, and is MIT licensed - VSCode: They ship a new feature release every month I guess? I was happy with it 1 year or two ago, but now they also have WSL 2 integration. This editor works across platforms on MacOS as well. - Windows 10: Snapping, HiDPI, sound management, drivers just work, lots of apps in windows store, if not you have everything in chocolatey anyway. Steam, with all the games, at full speed. macOS is no longer clearly superior the consumer OS space. Windows 10 is better IMO. The best part of Windows though is hardware choice. Unlike Apple where you're stuck with an expensive metal wedge, a keyboard you may not (or may!) like, that at least for me gets miserably slow after 3 years, in Windows-land you can pick Dell, Lenovo, HP, so on. You can build your own Desktop, and pick good quality components that last, that aren't soldered together wastefully. Generally speaking, it's more DIY / Hacker friendly. Maybe Microsoft is getting stronger, or Apple is losing touch with open source stuff trying to push their app / boutique hardware business model. But without open source and standards, what will be left to sustain it all if/when their app/hardware market sours?

scalanewaccount 7y ago
I'm seriously considering moving back to Windows from Arch. I miss some software. Can you give some downsides of WSL2 so I know you're being impartial (I am) and to help me make a decision. I wasted a few days with WSL1 and don't want to repeat that.
- throwaway13249 7y ago
  Just minor issues: You need to be on the insider programmer which forces telemetry and means you have a PITA windows style upgrade every other week (and the nagging associated with it). Whilst you can read /mnt/c/ you can't read virtual file systems such as Google drive stream /mnt/g/ is just empty. You need to do a bit of fuckery like pinning your ssh-agent to a known file socket and test this in your bash/zsh startup - not a biggie since you arent starting this off your WM No X support - there are third party x viewers though but not officially endorsed. So no apps like xkeynav and xkill. None of the intellij ecosystem have WSL support - sure you can set the terminal to be use wsl.exe but stuff like using your WSL2 distro's openssh config or using the agent running in your WSL2 etc... arent there or coming, VSCode is lightyears ahead in this department due to the way its modelled. Sadly intellij team aren't thinking in the same way of the vscode team, so instead of proxying through a remote demon they are thinking of doing something like reading //wsl$/distro/home/you/.ssh/config instead, hacking WSL support in their ssh/git bits
  - throwaway13249 7y ago
    Need to set max memory in wslconfig too - not so well documented - otherwise your VM will just balloon to fill up all your RAM and windows and windows app will start swapping
    - jstarks 7y ago
      We are working on solving that. No promises that we will solve it completely the first time, but it should get better soon.
  - throwaway8941 7y ago
    >None of the intellij ecosystem If you're doing C or C++ development, CLion does support WSL compilers/debuggers.
    - throwaway13249 7y ago
      It's all hacked in on intellij platform and reading their youtrack that their plan - each plugin bakes in WSL knowledge, where as VSCode basically launches a remote command proxy so it works the same weather WSL2 or a local vbox with ssh or a remote VPS and plugins dont need to change (or do so in a minor away). More an IntelliJ rant I guess
  - rits 7y ago
    If I got you right about ssh-agent, there is a console frontend https://www.funtoo.org/Keychain https://www.funtoo.org/Keychain.
  - adar 7y ago
    > You need to be on the insider programmer which forces telemetry and means you have a PITA windows style upgrade every other week (and the nagging associated with it). FWIW you can upgrade to the Fast Ring version of Windows that gets you WSL 2 and then switch to the Slow Ring that only gives you updates every month or so.
- kbumsik 7y ago
  WSL2 aren't shipped with systemd (or any other init processes) out of the box. So you, as an Arch user especially, will have much trouble managing Linux daemons. If you are an embedded dev keep in mind that USB or any native devices on WSL2 is not supported. If you are a web dev keep in mind that localhost is not available so that you need to figure out the IP address of WSL2.
  - y4mi 7y ago
    > If you are a web dev keep in mind that localhost is not available so that you need to figure out the IP address of WSL2. Which sounds like a non-issue, but is actually quite annoying, as almost every unconfigured daemon binds to localhost...
    - throwaway13249 7y ago
      This is fixed at least in the fast ring
29athrowaway 7y ago
Windows can be convenient, but what is the cost of your convenience? - Fewer hardware manufacturers will publish drivers for other OSes. - More computer manufacturers will sell computers with Windows preinstalled (and other preinstalled software that you will likely not want in your computer), making your computer more expensive and slower, and sometimes, less secure (search: eDellRoot). - Fewer game publishers will publish cross-platform builds, even if they use cross-platform libraries. More publishers will prefer Windows-only libraries like DirectX instead of cross-platform alternatives like Vulkan. - Fewer software vendors will create cross-platform software. - Exposure to ads, forced updates, "telemetry" and analytics, and other forms of loss of control over YOUR computer. - You will be rewarding Microsoft stockholders, including software villains from the 90s. - If your country gets slammed with US sanctions, Microsoft can no longer sell you software (unless you decide to pirate it, be cut from updates, and be left vulnerable to Internet worms like WannaCry). Call it loss of cyber-sovereignty if you wish. Now, about .NET... There are Linux builds of the .NET framework. You can use many IDEs to develop. But if you want an editors/IDEs, JetBrains Rider can be a good alternative to Visual Studio.
- vitalyx 7y ago
  All good points, it's good to have alternatives and balance of power. I've been using macOS exclusively since Feb 2014, I like the OS, I like the convenience, but recently I bought a PC to go along with it. Because the price of my convenience is: - Want 16GB more of DDR3 2166 RAM in your laptop? $400 please. Paid $320 for 64GB of DDR4 3200 for my PC. Want an iMac with 64GB of DDR4 2666? Pay $1000 to upgrade from the standard 8GB. - Can't have an NVIDIA GPU (at least not out of the box and even with an eGPU the support isn't first class) - Can't have an AMD CPU - Want 1TB SSD? Pay $300 more to upgrade from a hybrid HDD. Want a 2TB SSD? Get a volume discount and pay $700 more! Oh... - No HDMI port - honestly... hardly any ports and they "forgot" to include the dongles - touchbar - keyboard - AppleCare - you better buy it because everything is soldered, your warranty is 1 year, and you really don't want to know the price of repair. I'm reevaluating Linux as a viable choice every year or so too, it's getting better each time, but so do other platforms, so it's always playing catch-up. This year it was GPU drivers again (yes, NVIDIA). I problem solve for a living, but if I spend half my weekend and still can't figure out what's wrong, something is seriously wrong. So, whatever you choose, you pay.
jrempel 7y ago
Interesting. I recently swapped desktop from Windows to Linux because of the instability from updates. I have a macbook pro I also use which is generally faster and more stable.
sapphire_tomb 7y ago
I am rooting for Windows Terminal to succeed, but currently it's definitely not fast. Complete redraws of the content are in fact painfully slow for me at the moment.
samsaga2 7y ago
- Windows Terminal is nice but the windows command line is not. I don't like PowerShell, it is too verbose. - WSL 2 is not stable and it is only available for the Windows Insider program. And it does not have X. - Windows 10 drivers sucks. For example, Intel Graphics drivers has a lot of bugs. - ClearType has been improved but Linux and Mac font aliasing is a lot better. - I cannot upgrade my laptop to the last Windows version because something about the seller. The Windows Update does not give me the option. - Windows really need a package manager. And not, Chocolatey is not enough. - Windows desktop is nice but is not for me. I would like to remove the task bar and install something like i3wm. - NTFS is getting old and it is very slow if you have a lot of small files. Windows is nice to a light development. But if you really need a complete solution you have to search for alternatives. PD: I have nothing against vscode :).
- crispinb 7y ago
  Some of what you write is true. Some is false or absurd. > WSL 2 is not stable and it is only available for the Windows Insider program True but so what? It works perfectly well for many purposes right now (I know this from experience). Work on it is progressing apace, and it'll be in the mainstream builds before long. > And it does not have X. I don't even know what that means. You can install an X server (x410's the best in my experience), and run X11 apps in it. I worked f/t on the Linux build of IntelliJ running in WSL2 for a couple of projects, and it was fine. > NTFS is getting old and it is very slow if you have a lot of small files. Windows file handling is pretty slow, but not mainly because of NTFS. Working in WSL2 you have a linux kernel & ext4 for your source files, so it doesn't matter. > Windows is nice to a light development. But if you really need a complete solution you have to search for alternatives. That's just a silly ideological statement. And it is not a matter of opinion - great swathes of significant and sophisticated software are written by devs using Windows. To suggest something more is 'needed' flies in the face of objective reality. By all means express your taste (mine also runs to Linux right now, though it's a marginal decision), but you'd be better off being aware that taste is just that, and only that.
- freeone3000 7y ago
  WSL2 works fine as an X client in my experience. If you want to run an X server on windows, vcxsrv works pretty well.
wycy 7y ago
> Unlike Apple where you're stuck with an expensive metal wedge, a keyboard you may not (or may!) like, that at least for me gets miserably slow after 3 years That's strange. My iMac has been on its original installation of MacOS since 2012 and feels just as performant as on day 1 despite all other computers being faster.
valleyjo 7y ago
I think it’s a combination. Apple is getting worse and microsoft is getting better.

by tony 7y ago

scalanewaccount 7y ago

I'm seriously considering moving back to Windows from Arch. I miss some software. Can you give some downsides of WSL2 so I know you're being impartial (I am) and to help me make a decision. I wasted a few days with WSL1 and don't want to repeat that.

throwaway13249 7y ago
Just minor issues: You need to be on the insider programmer which forces telemetry and means you have a PITA windows style upgrade every other week (and the nagging associated with it). Whilst you can read /mnt/c/ you can't read virtual file systems such as Google drive stream /mnt/g/ is just empty. You need to do a bit of fuckery like pinning your ssh-agent to a known file socket and test this in your bash/zsh startup - not a biggie since you arent starting this off your WM No X support - there are third party x viewers though but not officially endorsed. So no apps like xkeynav and xkill. None of the intellij ecosystem have WSL support - sure you can set the terminal to be use wsl.exe but stuff like using your WSL2 distro's openssh config or using the agent running in your WSL2 etc... arent there or coming, VSCode is lightyears ahead in this department due to the way its modelled. Sadly intellij team aren't thinking in the same way of the vscode team, so instead of proxying through a remote demon they are thinking of doing something like reading //wsl$/distro/home/you/.ssh/config instead, hacking WSL support in their ssh/git bits
- throwaway13249 7y ago
  Need to set max memory in wslconfig too - not so well documented - otherwise your VM will just balloon to fill up all your RAM and windows and windows app will start swapping
  - jstarks 7y ago
    We are working on solving that. No promises that we will solve it completely the first time, but it should get better soon.
- throwaway8941 7y ago
  >None of the intellij ecosystem If you're doing C or C++ development, CLion does support WSL compilers/debuggers.
  - throwaway13249 7y ago
    It's all hacked in on intellij platform and reading their youtrack that their plan - each plugin bakes in WSL knowledge, where as VSCode basically launches a remote command proxy so it works the same weather WSL2 or a local vbox with ssh or a remote VPS and plugins dont need to change (or do so in a minor away). More an IntelliJ rant I guess
- rits 7y ago
  If I got you right about ssh-agent, there is a console frontend https://www.funtoo.org/Keychain https://www.funtoo.org/Keychain.
- adar 7y ago
  > You need to be on the insider programmer which forces telemetry and means you have a PITA windows style upgrade every other week (and the nagging associated with it). FWIW you can upgrade to the Fast Ring version of Windows that gets you WSL 2 and then switch to the Slow Ring that only gives you updates every month or so.
kbumsik 7y ago
WSL2 aren't shipped with systemd (or any other init processes) out of the box. So you, as an Arch user especially, will have much trouble managing Linux daemons. If you are an embedded dev keep in mind that USB or any native devices on WSL2 is not supported. If you are a web dev keep in mind that localhost is not available so that you need to figure out the IP address of WSL2.
- y4mi 7y ago
  > If you are a web dev keep in mind that localhost is not available so that you need to figure out the IP address of WSL2. Which sounds like a non-issue, but is actually quite annoying, as almost every unconfigured daemon binds to localhost...
  - throwaway13249 7y ago
    This is fixed at least in the fast ring

29athrowaway 7y ago

Windows can be convenient, but what is the cost of your convenience? - Fewer hardware manufacturers will publish drivers for other OSes. - More computer manufacturers will sell computers with Windows preinstalled (and other preinstalled software that you will likely not want in your computer), making your computer more expensive and slower, and sometimes, less secure (search: eDellRoot). - Fewer game publishers will publish cross-platform builds, even if they use cross-platform libraries. More publishers will prefer Windows-only libraries like DirectX instead of cross-platform alternatives like Vulkan. - Fewer software vendors will create cross-platform software. - Exposure to ads, forced updates, "telemetry" and analytics, and other forms of loss of control over YOUR computer. - You will be rewarding Microsoft stockholders, including software villains from the 90s. - If your country gets slammed with US sanctions, Microsoft can no longer sell you software (unless you decide to pirate it, be cut from updates, and be left vulnerable to Internet worms like WannaCry). Call it loss of cyber-sovereignty if you wish. Now, about .NET... There are Linux builds of the .NET framework. You can use many IDEs to develop. But if you want an editors/IDEs, JetBrains Rider can be a good alternative to Visual Studio.

vitalyx 7y ago
All good points, it's good to have alternatives and balance of power. I've been using macOS exclusively since Feb 2014, I like the OS, I like the convenience, but recently I bought a PC to go along with it. Because the price of my convenience is: - Want 16GB more of DDR3 2166 RAM in your laptop? $400 please. Paid $320 for 64GB of DDR4 3200 for my PC. Want an iMac with 64GB of DDR4 2666? Pay $1000 to upgrade from the standard 8GB. - Can't have an NVIDIA GPU (at least not out of the box and even with an eGPU the support isn't first class) - Can't have an AMD CPU - Want 1TB SSD? Pay $300 more to upgrade from a hybrid HDD. Want a 2TB SSD? Get a volume discount and pay $700 more! Oh... - No HDMI port - honestly... hardly any ports and they "forgot" to include the dongles - touchbar - keyboard - AppleCare - you better buy it because everything is soldered, your warranty is 1 year, and you really don't want to know the price of repair. I'm reevaluating Linux as a viable choice every year or so too, it's getting better each time, but so do other platforms, so it's always playing catch-up. This year it was GPU drivers again (yes, NVIDIA). I problem solve for a living, but if I spend half my weekend and still can't figure out what's wrong, something is seriously wrong. So, whatever you choose, you pay.

jrempel 7y ago

Interesting. I recently swapped desktop from Windows to Linux because of the instability from updates. I have a macbook pro I also use which is generally faster and more stable.

sapphire_tomb 7y ago

I am rooting for Windows Terminal to succeed, but currently it's definitely not fast. Complete redraws of the content are in fact painfully slow for me at the moment.

samsaga2 7y ago

- Windows Terminal is nice but the windows command line is not. I don't like PowerShell, it is too verbose. - WSL 2 is not stable and it is only available for the Windows Insider program. And it does not have X. - Windows 10 drivers sucks. For example, Intel Graphics drivers has a lot of bugs. - ClearType has been improved but Linux and Mac font aliasing is a lot better. - I cannot upgrade my laptop to the last Windows version because something about the seller. The Windows Update does not give me the option. - Windows really need a package manager. And not, Chocolatey is not enough. - Windows desktop is nice but is not for me. I would like to remove the task bar and install something like i3wm. - NTFS is getting old and it is very slow if you have a lot of small files. Windows is nice to a light development. But if you really need a complete solution you have to search for alternatives. PD: I have nothing against vscode :).

crispinb 7y ago
Some of what you write is true. Some is false or absurd. > WSL 2 is not stable and it is only available for the Windows Insider program True but so what? It works perfectly well for many purposes right now (I know this from experience). Work on it is progressing apace, and it'll be in the mainstream builds before long. > And it does not have X. I don't even know what that means. You can install an X server (x410's the best in my experience), and run X11 apps in it. I worked f/t on the Linux build of IntelliJ running in WSL2 for a couple of projects, and it was fine. > NTFS is getting old and it is very slow if you have a lot of small files. Windows file handling is pretty slow, but not mainly because of NTFS. Working in WSL2 you have a linux kernel & ext4 for your source files, so it doesn't matter. > Windows is nice to a light development. But if you really need a complete solution you have to search for alternatives. That's just a silly ideological statement. And it is not a matter of opinion - great swathes of significant and sophisticated software are written by devs using Windows. To suggest something more is 'needed' flies in the face of objective reality. By all means express your taste (mine also runs to Linux right now, though it's a marginal decision), but you'd be better off being aware that taste is just that, and only that.
freeone3000 7y ago
WSL2 works fine as an X client in my experience. If you want to run an X server on windows, vcxsrv works pretty well.

wycy 7y ago

> Unlike Apple where you're stuck with an expensive metal wedge, a keyboard you may not (or may!) like, that at least for me gets miserably slow after 3 years That's strange. My iMac has been on its original installation of MacOS since 2012 and feels just as performant as on day 1 despite all other computers being faster.

valleyjo 7y ago

I think it’s a combination. Apple is getting worse and microsoft is getting better.