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I'm shocked at how many people seem to be doing OK or have minor complaints. For me, I've realized that if I have to do anything for 40+ hours a week on a sche

I'm shocked at how many people seem to be doing OK or have minor complaints. For me, I've realized that if I have to do anything for 40+ hours a week on a schedule, after a couple of weeks, I'd prefer being dead. I could be a professional ice cream taste tester or race car driver, and after about 3 weeks of showing up at a fixed time and putting in 8 hours, I'd still be ready to off myself again. When I have week-long breaks from work (like holidays mixed with PTO), I regain the will to live and there's so much I want to do, and I'm so sad about how much time I've wasted. I start projects, I start forming relationships, I feel happiness. Then I go back to work, and the suicidal tendencies are way stronger than before I left. The best way for me to survive seems to never allow myself time off of work, because I dare not remind myself of what a free life would be like, or I might not be able to endure my current circumstances for another day. I just don't understand how people function as workers in society. I hope I can retire before this kills me.

rileyteige 7y ago
I can relate here, not sure if this is a reality for you but one thing that's helped me in this regard is negotiating 25hr/wk arrangements (accepting the pay cut). More flexibility, and if you're willing to burn the midnight oil once in a while you can bump your pay with a second (hopefully temporary!) gig.
- anon9001 7y ago
  How does that work in practice? What do you do? I can do just about any tech job, but every employer I've ever had is only interested in more than full time. Maybe I've been unintentionally signalling that I'm capable of doing more and that's why I keep finding myself in this situation? I'd be much happier if I had half the salary and somehow was able to work 2x12hr days instead of 5x8hr days, but I have no idea how to find employers that would agree with that. If you could get two people like me to do 2x12 at increased productivity during work hours with half the cost, you'd be coming out ahead, and you'd have more knowledge on tap in the organization.
  - rileyteige 7y ago
    Wish I had better suggestions, but for me it's been a word-of-mouth thing. Started with one person wanting to take me on but he "couldn't afford full-time pay"; he knew someone else who also needed help "here and there" so he helped me setup the initial arrangement to "make me whole", so to speak. A lot of luck and help to get it started. In practice, it's fairly easy to keep all parties happy, though inevitably there will be stretches where one client really wants my time at the expense of my other projects. That's a fine line, but I haven't run into issues with it yet. I'm sure someday I'll over-commit myself and pay for it. Thus far the key has been responsiveness and "general availability", being open about when/how I can give them more focused attention for various projects. If I tell client A I have a big deadline coming up for client B or vice-versa, they're usually pretty understanding. Best suggestion I could offer would be to talk to your friends/network and see if anyone "needs help here and there", to see if that opens a conversation towards an independent contractor arrangement.
  - l_t 7y ago
    Have you considered remote work? Sounds like it would be right up your alley. (Good) remote companies work based on results, not "butts in seats," so you're free to work in whatever way works best for you. Of course, you still have to be productive.
    - anon9001 7y ago
      I do remote now, but I don't think much of anything is based on "results". We still have mandatory morning meetings, many meetings through the week, lots of questions to be answered, bugs to be fixed, new features to be written, etc. Maybe I should stop working for startups? If I had a clear goal of "get this done for the week" and that was it, why wouldn't I just do it as quickly as possible and then not do anything else? I just assumed this whole system of meetings/checkins/standups/code-reviews/slack-channels/etc was set up to avoid people doing that. If anything, I feel more pressure to be readily available when I'm remote.
      - o-__-o 7y ago
- throwaway31338 7y ago
  How do you get health insurance in that situation, our of curiosity? All the employer-sponsored plans that I am familiar with require a minimum 30 hours / wk commitment. Being an independent contractor is awesome (it's what I did for 100% of my income from 2004 until just a couple of months ago) but the health insurance situation and fear ended up killing it.
  - colinmcd 7y ago
    You can get health insurance without being employed! Or check out the “healthcare cost-sharing” groups like Sedera - it’s great for freelancers.
p1esk 7y ago
Find a remote job (take a pay cut if needed), move to a cheaper country if money is a concern. Work 3-4 hours on a beach. Totally realistic as long as you’re good at what you do and manage to get things done.
- anon9001 7y ago
  I did that and relocated from SF to a cheaper part of the country. How does working on a beach help? I'm expected to be online during core work hours and available for calls (in a quiet location with good internet). I feel like I've optimized working as much as humanly possible and I'm still going insane. My job pays well, has good benefits, has good coworkers, my opinion is valued, my work is appreciated, my boss is fine, I learn new things every day, I now do 12-8 instead of 9-5 by switching time zones, and I make sure to be done with work when the office is done with work. I keep telling myself all these objectively good things, but I feel like I'm wasting every day for a paycheck. I store it all away and invest it, as if there's going to be a future, but I'm fully expecting this to kill me long before I'd have enough funds to quit. I must be doing something wrong though, because if everyone felt like I do, society shouldn't be able to function.
  - elwell 7y ago
    External things have limited relevance to the internal condition. "Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need." - Matthew 6:33
    - anon9001 7y ago
      I don't believe in any gods, and I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Is that advice actionable for you in some way? What do you take it to mean as it relates to modern employment?
      - sudosteph 7y ago
        The point of the whole section is that it's more important to build a legacy of being a good person than to be wealthy. One of the lines that proceeds that is: >27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]? Humans should be smart enough to figure out how not to starve and and not to freeze to death without working themselves to death preparing for a future that may not even come. We should care about each other enough to admit that those outcomes are not necessary and be willing to give and accept support form others from time to time. Gospel of Thomas has a similar parable > , "There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, 'I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing.' These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died.' Ie, don't make yourself miserable for material possessions out of fear that if you lack them for a period you will never be ok ever again. You'll lack them when you're dead too. Stress yourself out too much about those things and you'll probably just die early without even attempting the things you wanted to do. At least attempt to improve the world in some way if you think you have the means and desire to do so. And even if you risk your material possessions to do so, it probably isn't the end of the world.
mrmonkeyman 7y ago
Dude, you need 1) a kick in the nuts and 2) a chill pill. Your work is stupid, I know. Just stop giving a shit. Start taking risks and see what happens. Call in sick and play banjo or something. Act stupid. You need to act stupid every once in a while or you'll go crazy. You might like it, you might not, but you'll never know until you try..
caconym_ 7y ago
I also get the "waking up" feeling whenever I take more than a few days off, and going back to work feels like a death sentence (not in the judge-pounding-the-gavel sense, more in the it's-later-than-you-think sense). I don't feel suicidal, but I do feel desperate to waste less of my priceless time on piling up the money so that I can survive and support a family in a society that seems engineered to trap me in this half-living state. Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains.
- anon9001 7y ago
  > Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains. It's unclear to me if this is a weakness or a strength. I don't know which way is up. Are you a stronger person if you're willing to say fuck it and go do your own thing and not be concerned with things like health care and financial stability? Or are you a stronger person by steadfastly holding your station at work, because you just barely have enough grit to tough it out? I can't shake the feeling that making peace with this half-living state as a daily existence is either the greatest achievement or the biggest mistake. So I remain anxious about it and pretend I haven't committed either way, although my resume would show you that I've clearly opted for permanent half-living through continuous employment. Maybe it's too much to think about and I should go back to fantasizing about a life worth living while another work day ticks by...
  - croo 7y ago
    The problem is you can't really choose. As someone with a spouse and kids and possibly other people depending on you (aka your income), the pressure to acquire a monthly payment is astounding. There really is no simple or quick way out of this rat race.
    - anon9001 7y ago
      I'm trying so hard to get out. I'm single with no plan to have dependents, and a debt-free homeowner. I'm not in a relationship for obvious reasons, but if I was, I guess I'd be limited to FIRE people who don't want children, which isn't a very big pool. According to the calculators, I still have to put in at least another 10 years and save aggressively before I can quit. I don't think I'm gonna last that long, and if I do, I don't know if there'll be any of me left to enjoy it.
Miner49er 7y ago
A subreddit for people who feel similar: reddit.com/r/antiwork.
- anon9001 7y ago
  Wow, as advertised, there's 43k people who feel just like me. I agree with almost everything I'm seeing there, but it seems more about highlighting the problems than finding solutions.
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    yeah, unfortunately it's mostly just people venting. every once in a while they talk about solutions. it's mostly just FIRE, living very cheaply (like in a van), negotiating reduced hours, etc.
hhjinks 7y ago
Here comes an inverse take. I used to believe what you believe... Before I started working. I couldn't imagine getting up before 9 every day and go to work, get home around 5, and repeat that every day. Now that I've actually started working, I've completely changed. I took a week off to play Classic, but I was tearing my eyes out after three days, bored out of my mind. Now I feel like I can never see myself retiring without going completely insane.
- anon9001 7y ago
  I'm blown away by that. How did you make the transition? I didn't know anyone transitioned from how I think about life to how you now think about it. I've got "love what you do and you'll never work a day in your life" filed somewhere between "atheism is just a phase" and "you'll want kids some day". I'm starting to think I've missed some key developmental step.
  - aristophenes 7y ago
    Please understand that I am saying this in a compassionate, not a judgmental way. I think the key developmental step is to be able to get over yourself. I think this is a fundamental part in becoming a mature person. Many of us are forced through this step against our will and maybe without realizing it. Either through our job, or significant other, or kids, or some other experience that just overwhelms you. Apparently you are a tougher nut to crack than most people. It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly. But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying) It's funny because this is something religion usually stresses as well, so if you've avoided that you really might be missing out.
    - Miner49er 7y ago
qa_guy 7y ago
I feel the same as you but I think most people - including me - only justify working because it pays for what we want to do in life. The problem is not having enough time to do what we want in life, and negotiating less hours for less pay leaves us with less pay to do the things we want with the time we gain. It's a very fine line and it leaves everyone unfulfilled most of the time depending on your expectations. One approach is to try and find fulfillment in life with the time and money you have, and optimize for that.
kerkeslager 7y ago
Start your own business, work fewer hours, and take the cut in pay. That's what I did, and I have no regrets. It's the best decision I ever made.
- aintnoprophet 7y ago
  How to? Starting your own business is not easy.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    Working for someone else for 50 years is harder after its all said and done I suspect
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I used Zen Business to handle the legal stuff. Beyond that, my business is basically do what I did for a salary job (Python/Django), but fewer hours per week, and getting paid hourly without benefits. That wouldn't work for every career, but in my situation it actually was pretty easy. Taxes are definitely not easy, but having a separate business bank account has made them a lot easier.
- maoeurk 7y ago
  I'd love to hear more about this. Have you considered writing a blog post about this and sharing it here? Or if you happen to know of any good resources you can share, I'd appreciate those too. The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I haven't written a blog post, because I don't feel like I have all the answers by any means. I'm sure there are better ways to do almost everything I've done. I haven't always been successful. Maybe in a few years if I have more stuff worked out I'll write a blog post about it. > The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to. For sure!
citruscomputing 7y ago
The way you feel is normal. Please don't try to beat yourself into something you're not, or worse, feel guilty for not being able to. There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault." Remember that the 40 hour work week was considered a victory for unions. Not as an "I should feel grateful that I have this", but as a sign that progress is possible, and class struggle is real. Humans were not meant to live like this. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
- qorrect 7y ago
  |There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault." What song ?
  - luhn 7y ago
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22This+place+is+designed+to+kill+us+and+make+us+think+it%27s+our+fault.%22&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22This+place+is+designed+to+kill+...
    - jwilk 7y ago
      Linking to search engine results page is almost never helpful.
      - AntiqueFig 7y ago
        And almost always pedantic.
  - Choco31415 7y ago
    Not sure if citruscomputing is referring to this, but Death/Bad Girl from Thank You by Black Dresses has that lyric. It’s towards the end: “i didn't even know what i was going thru until like, a year ago and now it's everything this place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault”
BagPiper5000 7y ago
I felt like I should make a throwaway for this... I'm the same. I'm in a loop where I hold a job for a few months (IT support, recently, contract work, so that they're okay with me leaving), 10 months or so at the most, and then quit so I have my spare time (and energy) back. The last two times, I went overseas with no plan past the first few days. The key thing about after-work and weekend hours is they aren't as useful for getting things done as weekday hours, because you're tired from work. I just quit a pretty relaxed IT job to move from Australia to Scotland and live in a hostel. I'm working on a really exciting coding project now, which I've had the idea for for about a year, but never had the time and energy for before. However, I will soon run out of money, and will need a job. My plan was to do this for a short time, then apply for development jobs once I got a few things finished for my portfolio of work. But - and maybe this is one of the reasons I've held myself back for so long already - I've realized recently I'm too scared. I'm too scared of going back to 9 to 5, even if I'm out of IT and into development. I'm too scared of having someone else in control of how I spend my time. I'm scared of no longer having the chance to become someone exceptional, someone accomplished, someone unique. I'm scared of deciding on a life and then feeling stuck with it. I'm considering trying something crazy and risky like acting, and coding on the side, or freelance, if I can manage that. I am reminded of this passage from from A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick: " The pain, the cut in his scalp, so unexpected and undeserved, had for some reason cleared away the cobwebs. It flashed on him instantly that he didn’t hate the kitchen cabinet: he hated his wife, his two daughters, his whole house, the back yard with its power mower, the garage, the radiant heating system, the front yard, the fence, the whole fucking place and everyone in it. That life had been one without excitement, with no adventure. It had been too safe. All the elements that made it up were right there before his eyes, and nothing new could ever be expected. It was like, he had once thought, a little plastic boat that would sail on forever, without incident, until it finally sank, which would be a secret relief to all. In this dark world where he now dwelt, ugly things and surprising things and once in a long while a tiny wondrous thing spilled out at him constantly; he could count on nothing."
- anon9001 7y ago
  Are you not saving at all and only working when you need money? If you become unable to work, aren't you concerned that you'll become homeless or starve?
throwaway31338 7y ago
As a newly-minted member of the "40 hour / week" working club I have to agree with you. It's not okay. I'm not okay. This lifestyle is bullshit. I recently shuttered my successful IT contracting business of 15 years. The reasons aren't worth going in to in detail. The fucked US health insurance system, out-of-control medical expenses, the Trump administration, and minor pre-existing medical conditions scared me (my wife and I in our 40's... shit has gone wrong because we've, ya' know, lived...). I was worried that the "Repeal Obamacare" people would eventually leave family without health insurance. In that state, we'd be potentially one health issue away from bankruptcy and losing everything I've worked my whole life for. A job opportunity came up w/ a Customer. Since all I've done for the last 20 years is "hired gun" contract IT work I have no resume to speak of. I'd never get in the front door of a hiring process for what I'm accustomed to making. I'm "just" a sysadmin (albeit one who does know how to code). I'm in my 40's. I'd be lucky to make half and I'll be damned if I'm going to make my wife work outside the home if she doesn't want to. So, I took the 40 hour / week public sector job. I spending $15K less per year on health insurance premiums and I'm making about the same gross that I was w/ my business. I guess I should count myself lucky. I should be happy with it. I guess. The hours are fucking excruciating. Fucking. Excruciating. I don't understand how other people do this. It's soul-sucking and ridiculous. 40 hours a week dedicated to one single thing, aside from sleep, is untenable. I've religiously tracked 100% my time-- personal and work-- for the last 15 years. My per-night sleep is down to under 6 hours, previously at 7.5 - 8. My personal time (meals, time w/ family, recreation, exercise) is crazily lower now too. I feel physically worse. My weight is going up. I knew the old gig was good (billing 4.5 hours / weekday, on average, to make what I wanted) but I had absolutely no idea this grind would be such a grind. It's absolutely terrible. I don't see my wife and daughter anymore. I hate the time commitment. I'm working to find the next business. Maybe there will be some actual progress with health insurance or medical expense and I'll be able to work independently again w/o fear of losing our retirement savings when one of us has the eventual medical issue. We're kicking the savings for retirement up and I need to start doing some income investing (though, again, a fat lot of good that does me if I can't affordable and good health insurance). I need to get rid of this fucking albatross.
- anon9001 7y ago
  I know this is a throwaway for you (and it sort of is for me too), but I just wanted to reply to you and let you know that I'm cheering for you to find a way to make things work. If I ever solve this problem for myself, I'm going to shout the solution from the rooftops, in the hopes we can all learn to live as humans instead of drones.
urban_strike 7y ago
One thing that stuck out to me was you mentioned needing 10 more years of work to reach your early retirement goals. That sounds like a really long time to me, considering how negative your experience is with working. If you get your savings rate up to 75-80%, it shouldn't take you more than a few years to earn your freedom for life, even if it's a fairly modest existence. For what it's worth, that's my plan. Save another 2-3 years then retire to live frugally (in US or abroad) on about $20-24k a year, 3-3.5% withdrawal rate. Having to hang in there for 2-3 years can be rough at times, but 10 years would be crushing.
laurieg 7y ago
I agree wholeheartedly. I've tried again and again to do a full time job and I just can't handle how soul sucking it is. I'm 30 and in my life I've had a total of less than a year of full time employment. It's not a terrible life, but I do worry about the future a lot, especially when I meet my old college friends and realise what the 100k+ salary gets you. I wish I could do the same but I cannot.
thisismyswamp 7y ago
I feel you. I wrote this post just now and it couldn't be more relevant: How I code for 4 hours a day and make more than my peers https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-and-make-more-than-my-peers-d163ea38b6ba https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-a...
GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
If you can, consider consulting. You have much more control of when you work, with whom, and on what. Not perfect, but for sure better. Please give it a go if you can.

rileyteige 7y ago

I can relate here, not sure if this is a reality for you but one thing that's helped me in this regard is negotiating 25hr/wk arrangements (accepting the pay cut). More flexibility, and if you're willing to burn the midnight oil once in a while you can bump your pay with a second (hopefully temporary!) gig.

anon9001 7y ago
How does that work in practice? What do you do? I can do just about any tech job, but every employer I've ever had is only interested in more than full time. Maybe I've been unintentionally signalling that I'm capable of doing more and that's why I keep finding myself in this situation? I'd be much happier if I had half the salary and somehow was able to work 2x12hr days instead of 5x8hr days, but I have no idea how to find employers that would agree with that. If you could get two people like me to do 2x12 at increased productivity during work hours with half the cost, you'd be coming out ahead, and you'd have more knowledge on tap in the organization.
- rileyteige 7y ago
  Wish I had better suggestions, but for me it's been a word-of-mouth thing. Started with one person wanting to take me on but he "couldn't afford full-time pay"; he knew someone else who also needed help "here and there" so he helped me setup the initial arrangement to "make me whole", so to speak. A lot of luck and help to get it started. In practice, it's fairly easy to keep all parties happy, though inevitably there will be stretches where one client really wants my time at the expense of my other projects. That's a fine line, but I haven't run into issues with it yet. I'm sure someday I'll over-commit myself and pay for it. Thus far the key has been responsiveness and "general availability", being open about when/how I can give them more focused attention for various projects. If I tell client A I have a big deadline coming up for client B or vice-versa, they're usually pretty understanding. Best suggestion I could offer would be to talk to your friends/network and see if anyone "needs help here and there", to see if that opens a conversation towards an independent contractor arrangement.
- l_t 7y ago
  Have you considered remote work? Sounds like it would be right up your alley. (Good) remote companies work based on results, not "butts in seats," so you're free to work in whatever way works best for you. Of course, you still have to be productive.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    I do remote now, but I don't think much of anything is based on "results". We still have mandatory morning meetings, many meetings through the week, lots of questions to be answered, bugs to be fixed, new features to be written, etc. Maybe I should stop working for startups? If I had a clear goal of "get this done for the week" and that was it, why wouldn't I just do it as quickly as possible and then not do anything else? I just assumed this whole system of meetings/checkins/standups/code-reviews/slack-channels/etc was set up to avoid people doing that. If anything, I feel more pressure to be readily available when I'm remote.
    - o-__-o 7y ago
throwaway31338 7y ago
How do you get health insurance in that situation, our of curiosity? All the employer-sponsored plans that I am familiar with require a minimum 30 hours / wk commitment. Being an independent contractor is awesome (it's what I did for 100% of my income from 2004 until just a couple of months ago) but the health insurance situation and fear ended up killing it.
- colinmcd 7y ago
  You can get health insurance without being employed! Or check out the “healthcare cost-sharing” groups like Sedera - it’s great for freelancers.

p1esk 7y ago

Find a remote job (take a pay cut if needed), move to a cheaper country if money is a concern. Work 3-4 hours on a beach. Totally realistic as long as you’re good at what you do and manage to get things done.

anon9001 7y ago
I did that and relocated from SF to a cheaper part of the country. How does working on a beach help? I'm expected to be online during core work hours and available for calls (in a quiet location with good internet). I feel like I've optimized working as much as humanly possible and I'm still going insane. My job pays well, has good benefits, has good coworkers, my opinion is valued, my work is appreciated, my boss is fine, I learn new things every day, I now do 12-8 instead of 9-5 by switching time zones, and I make sure to be done with work when the office is done with work. I keep telling myself all these objectively good things, but I feel like I'm wasting every day for a paycheck. I store it all away and invest it, as if there's going to be a future, but I'm fully expecting this to kill me long before I'd have enough funds to quit. I must be doing something wrong though, because if everyone felt like I do, society shouldn't be able to function.
- elwell 7y ago
  External things have limited relevance to the internal condition. "Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need." - Matthew 6:33
  - anon9001 7y ago
    I don't believe in any gods, and I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Is that advice actionable for you in some way? What do you take it to mean as it relates to modern employment?
    - sudosteph 7y ago
      The point of the whole section is that it's more important to build a legacy of being a good person than to be wealthy. One of the lines that proceeds that is: >27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]? Humans should be smart enough to figure out how not to starve and and not to freeze to death without working themselves to death preparing for a future that may not even come. We should care about each other enough to admit that those outcomes are not necessary and be willing to give and accept support form others from time to time. Gospel of Thomas has a similar parable > , "There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, 'I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing.' These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died.' Ie, don't make yourself miserable for material possessions out of fear that if you lack them for a period you will never be ok ever again. You'll lack them when you're dead too. Stress yourself out too much about those things and you'll probably just die early without even attempting the things you wanted to do. At least attempt to improve the world in some way if you think you have the means and desire to do so. And even if you risk your material possessions to do so, it probably isn't the end of the world.

mrmonkeyman 7y ago

Dude, you need 1) a kick in the nuts and 2) a chill pill. Your work is stupid, I know. Just stop giving a shit. Start taking risks and see what happens. Call in sick and play banjo or something. Act stupid. You need to act stupid every once in a while or you'll go crazy. You might like it, you might not, but you'll never know until you try..

caconym_ 7y ago

I also get the "waking up" feeling whenever I take more than a few days off, and going back to work feels like a death sentence (not in the judge-pounding-the-gavel sense, more in the it's-later-than-you-think sense). I don't feel suicidal, but I do feel desperate to waste less of my priceless time on piling up the money so that I can survive and support a family in a society that seems engineered to trap me in this half-living state. Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains.

anon9001 7y ago
> Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains. It's unclear to me if this is a weakness or a strength. I don't know which way is up. Are you a stronger person if you're willing to say fuck it and go do your own thing and not be concerned with things like health care and financial stability? Or are you a stronger person by steadfastly holding your station at work, because you just barely have enough grit to tough it out? I can't shake the feeling that making peace with this half-living state as a daily existence is either the greatest achievement or the biggest mistake. So I remain anxious about it and pretend I haven't committed either way, although my resume would show you that I've clearly opted for permanent half-living through continuous employment. Maybe it's too much to think about and I should go back to fantasizing about a life worth living while another work day ticks by...
- croo 7y ago
  The problem is you can't really choose. As someone with a spouse and kids and possibly other people depending on you (aka your income), the pressure to acquire a monthly payment is astounding. There really is no simple or quick way out of this rat race.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    I'm trying so hard to get out. I'm single with no plan to have dependents, and a debt-free homeowner. I'm not in a relationship for obvious reasons, but if I was, I guess I'd be limited to FIRE people who don't want children, which isn't a very big pool. According to the calculators, I still have to put in at least another 10 years and save aggressively before I can quit. I don't think I'm gonna last that long, and if I do, I don't know if there'll be any of me left to enjoy it.

Miner49er 7y ago

A subreddit for people who feel similar: reddit.com/r/antiwork.

anon9001 7y ago
Wow, as advertised, there's 43k people who feel just like me. I agree with almost everything I'm seeing there, but it seems more about highlighting the problems than finding solutions.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  yeah, unfortunately it's mostly just people venting. every once in a while they talk about solutions. it's mostly just FIRE, living very cheaply (like in a van), negotiating reduced hours, etc.

hhjinks 7y ago

Here comes an inverse take. I used to believe what you believe... Before I started working. I couldn't imagine getting up before 9 every day and go to work, get home around 5, and repeat that every day. Now that I've actually started working, I've completely changed. I took a week off to play Classic, but I was tearing my eyes out after three days, bored out of my mind. Now I feel like I can never see myself retiring without going completely insane.

anon9001 7y ago
I'm blown away by that. How did you make the transition? I didn't know anyone transitioned from how I think about life to how you now think about it. I've got "love what you do and you'll never work a day in your life" filed somewhere between "atheism is just a phase" and "you'll want kids some day". I'm starting to think I've missed some key developmental step.
- aristophenes 7y ago
  Please understand that I am saying this in a compassionate, not a judgmental way. I think the key developmental step is to be able to get over yourself. I think this is a fundamental part in becoming a mature person. Many of us are forced through this step against our will and maybe without realizing it. Either through our job, or significant other, or kids, or some other experience that just overwhelms you. Apparently you are a tougher nut to crack than most people. It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly. But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying) It's funny because this is something religion usually stresses as well, so if you've avoided that you really might be missing out.
  - Miner49er 7y ago

qa_guy 7y ago

I feel the same as you but I think most people - including me - only justify working because it pays for what we want to do in life. The problem is not having enough time to do what we want in life, and negotiating less hours for less pay leaves us with less pay to do the things we want with the time we gain. It's a very fine line and it leaves everyone unfulfilled most of the time depending on your expectations. One approach is to try and find fulfillment in life with the time and money you have, and optimize for that.

kerkeslager 7y ago

Start your own business, work fewer hours, and take the cut in pay. That's what I did, and I have no regrets. It's the best decision I ever made.

aintnoprophet 7y ago
How to? Starting your own business is not easy.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  Working for someone else for 50 years is harder after its all said and done I suspect
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  I used Zen Business to handle the legal stuff. Beyond that, my business is basically do what I did for a salary job (Python/Django), but fewer hours per week, and getting paid hourly without benefits. That wouldn't work for every career, but in my situation it actually was pretty easy. Taxes are definitely not easy, but having a separate business bank account has made them a lot easier.
maoeurk 7y ago
I'd love to hear more about this. Have you considered writing a blog post about this and sharing it here? Or if you happen to know of any good resources you can share, I'd appreciate those too. The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  I haven't written a blog post, because I don't feel like I have all the answers by any means. I'm sure there are better ways to do almost everything I've done. I haven't always been successful. Maybe in a few years if I have more stuff worked out I'll write a blog post about it. > The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to. For sure!

citruscomputing 7y ago

The way you feel is normal. Please don't try to beat yourself into something you're not, or worse, feel guilty for not being able to. There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault." Remember that the 40 hour work week was considered a victory for unions. Not as an "I should feel grateful that I have this", but as a sign that progress is possible, and class struggle is real. Humans were not meant to live like this. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

qorrect 7y ago
|There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault." What song ?
- luhn 7y ago
  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22This+place+is+designed+to+kill+us+and+make+us+think+it%27s+our+fault.%22&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22This+place+is+designed+to+kill+...
  - jwilk 7y ago
    Linking to search engine results page is almost never helpful.
    - AntiqueFig 7y ago
      And almost always pedantic.
- Choco31415 7y ago
  Not sure if citruscomputing is referring to this, but Death/Bad Girl from Thank You by Black Dresses has that lyric. It’s towards the end: “i didn't even know what i was going thru until like, a year ago and now it's everything this place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault”

BagPiper5000 7y ago

I felt like I should make a throwaway for this... I'm the same. I'm in a loop where I hold a job for a few months (IT support, recently, contract work, so that they're okay with me leaving), 10 months or so at the most, and then quit so I have my spare time (and energy) back. The last two times, I went overseas with no plan past the first few days. The key thing about after-work and weekend hours is they aren't as useful for getting things done as weekday hours, because you're tired from work. I just quit a pretty relaxed IT job to move from Australia to Scotland and live in a hostel. I'm working on a really exciting coding project now, which I've had the idea for for about a year, but never had the time and energy for before. However, I will soon run out of money, and will need a job. My plan was to do this for a short time, then apply for development jobs once I got a few things finished for my portfolio of work. But - and maybe this is one of the reasons I've held myself back for so long already - I've realized recently I'm too scared. I'm too scared of going back to 9 to 5, even if I'm out of IT and into development. I'm too scared of having someone else in control of how I spend my time. I'm scared of no longer having the chance to become someone exceptional, someone accomplished, someone unique. I'm scared of deciding on a life and then feeling stuck with it. I'm considering trying something crazy and risky like acting, and coding on the side, or freelance, if I can manage that. I am reminded of this passage from from A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick: " The pain, the cut in his scalp, so unexpected and undeserved, had for some reason cleared away the cobwebs. It flashed on him instantly that he didn’t hate the kitchen cabinet: he hated his wife, his two daughters, his whole house, the back yard with its power mower, the garage, the radiant heating system, the front yard, the fence, the whole fucking place and everyone in it. That life had been one without excitement, with no adventure. It had been too safe. All the elements that made it up were right there before his eyes, and nothing new could ever be expected. It was like, he had once thought, a little plastic boat that would sail on forever, without incident, until it finally sank, which would be a secret relief to all. In this dark world where he now dwelt, ugly things and surprising things and once in a long while a tiny wondrous thing spilled out at him constantly; he could count on nothing."

anon9001 7y ago
Are you not saving at all and only working when you need money? If you become unable to work, aren't you concerned that you'll become homeless or starve?

throwaway31338 7y ago

As a newly-minted member of the "40 hour / week" working club I have to agree with you. It's not okay. I'm not okay. This lifestyle is bullshit. I recently shuttered my successful IT contracting business of 15 years. The reasons aren't worth going in to in detail. The fucked US health insurance system, out-of-control medical expenses, the Trump administration, and minor pre-existing medical conditions scared me (my wife and I in our 40's... shit has gone wrong because we've, ya' know, lived...). I was worried that the "Repeal Obamacare" people would eventually leave family without health insurance. In that state, we'd be potentially one health issue away from bankruptcy and losing everything I've worked my whole life for. A job opportunity came up w/ a Customer. Since all I've done for the last 20 years is "hired gun" contract IT work I have no resume to speak of. I'd never get in the front door of a hiring process for what I'm accustomed to making. I'm "just" a sysadmin (albeit one who does know how to code). I'm in my 40's. I'd be lucky to make half and I'll be damned if I'm going to make my wife work outside the home if she doesn't want to. So, I took the 40 hour / week public sector job. I spending $15K less per year on health insurance premiums and I'm making about the same gross that I was w/ my business. I guess I should count myself lucky. I should be happy with it. I guess. The hours are fucking excruciating. Fucking. Excruciating. I don't understand how other people do this. It's soul-sucking and ridiculous. 40 hours a week dedicated to one single thing, aside from sleep, is untenable. I've religiously tracked 100% my time-- personal and work-- for the last 15 years. My per-night sleep is down to under 6 hours, previously at 7.5 - 8. My personal time (meals, time w/ family, recreation, exercise) is crazily lower now too. I feel physically worse. My weight is going up. I knew the old gig was good (billing 4.5 hours / weekday, on average, to make what I wanted) but I had absolutely no idea this grind would be such a grind. It's absolutely terrible. I don't see my wife and daughter anymore. I hate the time commitment. I'm working to find the next business. Maybe there will be some actual progress with health insurance or medical expense and I'll be able to work independently again w/o fear of losing our retirement savings when one of us has the eventual medical issue. We're kicking the savings for retirement up and I need to start doing some income investing (though, again, a fat lot of good that does me if I can't affordable and good health insurance). I need to get rid of this fucking albatross.

anon9001 7y ago
I know this is a throwaway for you (and it sort of is for me too), but I just wanted to reply to you and let you know that I'm cheering for you to find a way to make things work. If I ever solve this problem for myself, I'm going to shout the solution from the rooftops, in the hopes we can all learn to live as humans instead of drones.

urban_strike 7y ago

One thing that stuck out to me was you mentioned needing 10 more years of work to reach your early retirement goals. That sounds like a really long time to me, considering how negative your experience is with working. If you get your savings rate up to 75-80%, it shouldn't take you more than a few years to earn your freedom for life, even if it's a fairly modest existence. For what it's worth, that's my plan. Save another 2-3 years then retire to live frugally (in US or abroad) on about $20-24k a year, 3-3.5% withdrawal rate. Having to hang in there for 2-3 years can be rough at times, but 10 years would be crushing.

laurieg 7y ago

I agree wholeheartedly. I've tried again and again to do a full time job and I just can't handle how soul sucking it is. I'm 30 and in my life I've had a total of less than a year of full time employment. It's not a terrible life, but I do worry about the future a lot, especially when I meet my old college friends and realise what the 100k+ salary gets you. I wish I could do the same but I cannot.

thisismyswamp 7y ago

I feel you. I wrote this post just now and it couldn't be more relevant: How I code for 4 hours a day and make more than my peers https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-and-make-more-than-my-peers-d163ea38b6ba https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-a...

GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago

If you can, consider consulting. You have much more control of when you work, with whom, and on what. Not perfect, but for sure better. Please give it a go if you can.