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No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, because in his eyes it makes it all worth it. I see the money I give him as teaching opportunities. Kids will get in touch with these mechanics as they grow up, and now you have the chance to talk to him about it. Discuss it over and over, it's not a one-time thing, and you've made no permanent damage. Let him know you think it's not worth it, but I wouldn't put a permanent ban on it, as it may make it even more appealing. If he wants other (real-life) stuff later, remind him that he already spent his money on loot boxes and I think they will lose their appeal a bit.

JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
On the plus side, at least in Rocket League you can trade others for the skins. There is a market rate of items due to this. This is not always the case on apex legends, where some limited offer items are only obtainable from loot boxes.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  The market rates are purely manifestations of drop rates, so a rare item will likely be extremely expensive/unaffordable.
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    Sure, but there is a ceiling on any item that isn't one of the super super rare items that barely anyone goes for except the extreme collectors. (Usually an item that goes for much cheaper but has a special tag on it that's only visible to you.) In apex there have been posts from people who have spent thousands to try to unlock a particular item. Literally opening the same random box 400 times and failing to get the item.
  - losvedir 7y ago
    No, this isn't correct. For instance, any drop has a chance of being "painted" and among painted items there's an equal chance of any of several colors. However, because of demand, Titanium White painted items are much more valuable than, say, Burnt Sienna.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      That's a weird quibble. If there are ten variants and only one of them is Titanium White, the desirable one is only available in 10% of the drops and is thus rare. Yes, desirability plays a role, but it's still rare.
      - SkyBelow 7y ago
        Desirability determines demand. Rarity determines supply (relative to the entire value on the market). Both are taken into account to determine the price. My favorite place to view this is Path of Exile in game economy. They do have random loot boxes for cosmetics, but I'm talking about the actual in game economy around items that power up your character. None of which can be bought for real money and instead require time to farm them (RMT does exist but is against ToS and can get you banned). There are extremely rare items that cost nothing because they aren't used. There are quite common items that have decent value because of how high the demand it. Technically the game doesn't even have a currency, but players found a small set of common but also highly useful items that have become the defacto currency so much so the developers even admit they now count as currency.
      - bart_spoon 7y ago
        Its not really a quibble, but you aren't wrong either. Its true that valuable items will be rare, but it isn't true that all rare items will be valuable. Both the titanium white and the burnt sierra colors are equally rare, but one is much more valuable because demand is not equivalent.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jacobush 7y ago
I think there is no fire-proof way of handling this that will work with all, or even a majority of children. (And parents.) Teach your kids to handle it, do it wisely, but if the best way is a puritan approach or a market value approach as above, I think it depends which is best. Edit: to elaborate, I think it depends on many things. One that comes to mind is, how strong is the "dopamine" effect vs vs the "oh, sudden insight into how market economies work" in the child. (And parent, as a mirror and role model.) If the reward response is very strong, I can't help but thinking about the knowledge we have about alcohol and children: we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all.
- GuiA 7y ago
  > we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all. Do we? In French culture it’s not uncommon to let kids as young as 12-13 take a few sips of wine at weddings, family meals, etc; and having attended university in France, the UK, and the US, my experience is that French students are by far the most reasonable in their consumption. Some might get hammered once or twice a week during their first years of university, but there’s not much that approaches the frat party levels of debauchery one witnesses in the US.
  - 05 7y ago
    > France has one of the highest alcohol consumption rates in Europe, with the country trailing behind only Estonia, Lithuania and the Czech Republic in the quantities of alcohol it drinks, according to the World Health Organization.
    - GuiA 7y ago
      Sure, there’s a long cultural history of drinking a glass of wine with a meal. What’s your broader point?
    - circlefavshape 7y ago
ian0 7y ago
Thats a good point! In the end he did learn his lesson, sort of. He realised he had squandered his cash but in learning the game mechanics also found out some skins could be unlocked by earning points through playing. As he doesnt like shooting anyone its up to me to grind for points. I agreed for the extra turns of course. Perhaps a lesson in effective delegation to boot :)
- pnongrata 7y ago
  For every kid that "learns his lesson" there are tons who don't, who don't have parents or hey are just too busy to "guide" them through this experience. The whole thing is designed to wire your brain to increase engagement,as in addiction.
benj111 7y ago
"No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him." What's your model for what this is though? The GP mentions a pub fruit machine. I suppose you could make the case for it being like football stickers. As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad, football stickers good. I would guess trading stickers is a social activity, and theres an in build limit to how many stickers you need? Where do loot boxes come out on these measures?
- GuB-42 7y ago
  > As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad, football stickers good. Slot machines pay out real money. It helps contributing to the illusion that you can recover from your losses by playing more. Football stickers, loot boxes, etc... make it clear that the money is spent.
  - benj111 7y ago
    Perhaps. Someone with a problem could easily convince themselves football stickers (the rare ones) are a sound investment. And where would 2p machines [1] fit into this? It's acceptable to let your kids go on those and they have real money prizes. That's not to say you're wrong though, because as I said I'm not really sure. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=su5xcK9FhRw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=su5xcK9FhRw
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      You can clearly see the odds are against you with the 2p waterfalls and such like. The side exits ensure the odds are with the house - you can point them out and show it's a rigged game. Opportunity to dive off into risk/reward and the unbalance of economics where some get disproportionate reward for the same inputs, perhaps? Or show how the house always wins. :) Those aren't going to break the bank though, or start a habit, so a harmless way to let the kids get rid of parent's pocket of excess coppers.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
sjcsjc 7y ago
I think this is an exceptionally good response. Thank you.
gambiting 7y ago
I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing - just digitized. I don't really have an opinion whether that's good or bad, just that it's clearly aimed at kids to buy this stuff, just like the stickers were.
- esotericn 7y ago
  I don't really think "just digitized" captures the problem with these boxes. Imagine a fairly boring interface that has Pokemon cards or football stickers in. Like your hands holding them and trading them and sticking them on things. Now contrast that to the loot box stuff that has exciting music, flashing lights, A-B tested into oblivion, the money comes from some ethereal 'account' rather than involving an actual exchange, etc. I think the analogy is more with the flashing exciting slot machines at the pub (which seem to have evolved a ton since I were a small as well...)
  - illdave 7y ago
    I completely agree with this - those flashing lights, music and big reveal is all optimised for a dopamine hit. It feels pretty manipulative.
  - weaksauce 7y ago
    Maybe just a little bit of a way to remove the dopamine high, or make it slightly worse, would be to have the kid physically hand you the money before they open the case so they feel the pain of spending the cash.
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Which surely only works for older kids who've had the experience of earning money with hard graft.
jbms 7y ago
There is permanent damage if you rewire your kids brain chemistry to get addicted to the near-miss of getting something good. Logical explanations don't undo that. I understand from a Louis Theroux documentary on gambling addicts that it is the feeling of the near miss that is actually addictive and not the feeling of the win. Gambling addicts are used to winning and so they don't get a buzz from that.
- digitalengineer 7y ago
  Yes! Came here to say this. The f*ckery is indeed that. The near-miss makes it addictive. Logic and learning has nothing to do with it. I could not say it any better than how the game developers themselves say it: "“being the only good person is likely going to make you lose money”(Fortnite dev). https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/342130/Former_Fortnite_UX_lead_digs_into_ethical_game_design.php https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/342130/Former_Fortnite_U...
- jerf 7y ago
  I am not disagreeing, but, on the other hand, they will be exposed to this, at at least one order of magnitude higher intensity than I ever was as a kid, or even in my 20s. I don't have a perfect solution, just pointing out the bind we're in. I'm actually not terribly prone to the "youth are just all messed up today compared to my generation" idea scheme, but while homo sapiens hasn't changed, the environment has changed radically and the amount of cognitive firepower being brought to bear on us to get our money and manipulate us has skyrocketed in the past decade or two. I've got a 11 and 8 year old and am still struggling through how to deal with it.
- brainzap 7y ago
  +1 I was thinking about this too, dopamine creating strong neurons which you cannot get rid off easily.
ihuman 7y ago
Its not related to the point of your comment, but Rocket League's loot boxes are going away https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/6/20757348/rocket-league-crates-leaving https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/6/20757348/rocket-league-crat...
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
I'm a developer in Las Vegas and have worked in actual casino gaming and slot machines and I have never disagreed with a comment on Hacker News as much as I do this one. My perspective is that there are two kinds of people. Those who understand that slot machines are dangerous and a bad long term investment, and those who do not and gradually become more and more addicted to them. I've never seen a casino customer who was initially attracted to slot machine mechanics, gradually learn that they a poor exchange of value, overcome their addictive nature and stop playing them. They may stop playing because they are broke. They may learn to manage the addiction at a level they enjoy and can sustain. But they don't just suddenly understand that it's a bad deal and stop wanting to play.
jakobegger 7y ago
That's wishful thinking. You don't learn that gambling is bad by gambling a little bit and losing a bit of money. If people were rational enough for that, people wouldn't suffer from gambling addiction. There's only one way to protect kids from gambling: don't let them get near it.
- autoexec 7y ago
  I'd like to think that understanding how the brain responds to gambling, why the games are designed the way they are and how exploitative the companies behind them are being can help, but I wouldn't expect a child to be able to really grasp all that well enough.
dragontamer 7y ago
Its called a skinnerbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber Fully grown ADULTS fall prey to skinnerboxes (aka: Slot Machines) all the time. Its basic human psychology (heck: the skinnerbox is effective on virtually all Birds and Mammals). Its extremely fundamental to the function of the modern biological brain. Its literally a "brain hack". This isn't some "willpower away" sort of training. This is literally how your brain, and your children's brain works. As well as how your dog's brain, and the bird's brains and the cats brains, and deer brains. The only winning move is to not play. Its literally hopeless if you get sucked into a skinner box. You can't beat the biological functions of what your brain is designed to do. -------- I don't think there's "long term damage" to be suffered here. Human brains, just like the brains of any mammal (or bird), are prone to operant conditioning. If you RANDOMLY give a reward when a subject (be it human, mammal, or bird) pushes a button, the subject will continue to push the button over and over again. Its just biology. EDIT: And random-rewards are far stronger than consistent rewards. If a reward is consistent, then when it "stops", the subject believes that the pattern is over. But if the reward was Random, then the subject will continue pushing the button even long after the pattern has stopped or been modified.
- droithomme 7y ago
  It's not as fatalistic as you suggest: that randomly offered rewards always lead to complete zombie slave status in 100% of subjects, there's no way out, and the situation is hopeless. Studies have found propensities not absolutes across all subjects and species. For example, river otters are notoriously difficult to train using operant conditioning because they are extremely curious, but also bore easily. Getting them to repeat a behavior indefinitely using a reward is extremely difficult if not impossible. Likewise not all humans can be controlled as robot slaves incapable of escape as easily as the fatalistic determination description provided suggests. People can learn to recognize scams and avoid them. Maybe there are some people who simply never learn. Maybe. Probably not though. Addictions can be hard to overcome for many. But they are generally recoverable.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
dpcan 7y ago
No no no no no. "It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, because in his eyes it makes it all worth it." THAT is the whole problem. Those rewards. Kids absolutely cannot understand how to cope with that feeling. Getting lucky and opening the thing they want becomes an expectation. They EXPECT to get lucky now. You can talk to your kid without spending a dime, without letting them engage in the activity. What else are you just going to "try" and then talk about? Let him smoke some cigarettes, get cancer, and then say, see son, there's a lesson to be learned here...... no.
hndamien 7y ago
This is very true! The words "it's a scam" is always fun for a kid to learn and repeat.

JauntyHatAngle 7y ago

On the plus side, at least in Rocket League you can trade others for the skins. There is a market rate of items due to this. This is not always the case on apex legends, where some limited offer items are only obtainable from loot boxes.

cameronbrown 7y ago
The market rates are purely manifestations of drop rates, so a rare item will likely be extremely expensive/unaffordable.
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  Sure, but there is a ceiling on any item that isn't one of the super super rare items that barely anyone goes for except the extreme collectors. (Usually an item that goes for much cheaper but has a special tag on it that's only visible to you.) In apex there have been posts from people who have spent thousands to try to unlock a particular item. Literally opening the same random box 400 times and failing to get the item.
- losvedir 7y ago
  No, this isn't correct. For instance, any drop has a chance of being "painted" and among painted items there's an equal chance of any of several colors. However, because of demand, Titanium White painted items are much more valuable than, say, Burnt Sienna.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    That's a weird quibble. If there are ten variants and only one of them is Titanium White, the desirable one is only available in 10% of the drops and is thus rare. Yes, desirability plays a role, but it's still rare.
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      Desirability determines demand. Rarity determines supply (relative to the entire value on the market). Both are taken into account to determine the price. My favorite place to view this is Path of Exile in game economy. They do have random loot boxes for cosmetics, but I'm talking about the actual in game economy around items that power up your character. None of which can be bought for real money and instead require time to farm them (RMT does exist but is against ToS and can get you banned). There are extremely rare items that cost nothing because they aren't used. There are quite common items that have decent value because of how high the demand it. Technically the game doesn't even have a currency, but players found a small set of common but also highly useful items that have become the defacto currency so much so the developers even admit they now count as currency.
    - bart_spoon 7y ago
      Its not really a quibble, but you aren't wrong either. Its true that valuable items will be rare, but it isn't true that all rare items will be valuable. Both the titanium white and the burnt sierra colors are equally rare, but one is much more valuable because demand is not equivalent.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jacobush 7y ago

I think there is no fire-proof way of handling this that will work with all, or even a majority of children. (And parents.) Teach your kids to handle it, do it wisely, but if the best way is a puritan approach or a market value approach as above, I think it depends which is best. Edit: to elaborate, I think it depends on many things. One that comes to mind is, how strong is the "dopamine" effect vs vs the "oh, sudden insight into how market economies work" in the child. (And parent, as a mirror and role model.) If the reward response is very strong, I can't help but thinking about the knowledge we have about alcohol and children: we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all.

GuiA 7y ago
> we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all. Do we? In French culture it’s not uncommon to let kids as young as 12-13 take a few sips of wine at weddings, family meals, etc; and having attended university in France, the UK, and the US, my experience is that French students are by far the most reasonable in their consumption. Some might get hammered once or twice a week during their first years of university, but there’s not much that approaches the frat party levels of debauchery one witnesses in the US.
- 05 7y ago
  > France has one of the highest alcohol consumption rates in Europe, with the country trailing behind only Estonia, Lithuania and the Czech Republic in the quantities of alcohol it drinks, according to the World Health Organization.
  - GuiA 7y ago
    Sure, there’s a long cultural history of drinking a glass of wine with a meal. What’s your broader point?
  - circlefavshape 7y ago

ian0 7y ago

Thats a good point! In the end he did learn his lesson, sort of. He realised he had squandered his cash but in learning the game mechanics also found out some skins could be unlocked by earning points through playing. As he doesnt like shooting anyone its up to me to grind for points. I agreed for the extra turns of course. Perhaps a lesson in effective delegation to boot :)

pnongrata 7y ago
For every kid that "learns his lesson" there are tons who don't, who don't have parents or hey are just too busy to "guide" them through this experience. The whole thing is designed to wire your brain to increase engagement,as in addiction.

benj111 7y ago

"No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him." What's your model for what this is though? The GP mentions a pub fruit machine. I suppose you could make the case for it being like football stickers. As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad, football stickers good. I would guess trading stickers is a social activity, and theres an in build limit to how many stickers you need? Where do loot boxes come out on these measures?

GuB-42 7y ago
> As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad, football stickers good. Slot machines pay out real money. It helps contributing to the illusion that you can recover from your losses by playing more. Football stickers, loot boxes, etc... make it clear that the money is spent.
- benj111 7y ago
  Perhaps. Someone with a problem could easily convince themselves football stickers (the rare ones) are a sound investment. And where would 2p machines [1] fit into this? It's acceptable to let your kids go on those and they have real money prizes. That's not to say you're wrong though, because as I said I'm not really sure. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=su5xcK9FhRw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=su5xcK9FhRw
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    You can clearly see the odds are against you with the 2p waterfalls and such like. The side exits ensure the odds are with the house - you can point them out and show it's a rigged game. Opportunity to dive off into risk/reward and the unbalance of economics where some get disproportionate reward for the same inputs, perhaps? Or show how the house always wins. :) Those aren't going to break the bank though, or start a habit, so a harmless way to let the kids get rid of parent's pocket of excess coppers.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago

sjcsjc 7y ago

I think this is an exceptionally good response. Thank you.

gambiting 7y ago

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing - just digitized. I don't really have an opinion whether that's good or bad, just that it's clearly aimed at kids to buy this stuff, just like the stickers were.

esotericn 7y ago
I don't really think "just digitized" captures the problem with these boxes. Imagine a fairly boring interface that has Pokemon cards or football stickers in. Like your hands holding them and trading them and sticking them on things. Now contrast that to the loot box stuff that has exciting music, flashing lights, A-B tested into oblivion, the money comes from some ethereal 'account' rather than involving an actual exchange, etc. I think the analogy is more with the flashing exciting slot machines at the pub (which seem to have evolved a ton since I were a small as well...)
- illdave 7y ago
  I completely agree with this - those flashing lights, music and big reveal is all optimised for a dopamine hit. It feels pretty manipulative.
- weaksauce 7y ago
  Maybe just a little bit of a way to remove the dopamine high, or make it slightly worse, would be to have the kid physically hand you the money before they open the case so they feel the pain of spending the cash.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Which surely only works for older kids who've had the experience of earning money with hard graft.

jbms 7y ago

There is permanent damage if you rewire your kids brain chemistry to get addicted to the near-miss of getting something good. Logical explanations don't undo that. I understand from a Louis Theroux documentary on gambling addicts that it is the feeling of the near miss that is actually addictive and not the feeling of the win. Gambling addicts are used to winning and so they don't get a buzz from that.

digitalengineer 7y ago
Yes! Came here to say this. The f*ckery is indeed that. The near-miss makes it addictive. Logic and learning has nothing to do with it. I could not say it any better than how the game developers themselves say it: "“being the only good person is likely going to make you lose money”(Fortnite dev). https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/342130/Former_Fortnite_UX_lead_digs_into_ethical_game_design.php https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/342130/Former_Fortnite_U...
jerf 7y ago
I am not disagreeing, but, on the other hand, they will be exposed to this, at at least one order of magnitude higher intensity than I ever was as a kid, or even in my 20s. I don't have a perfect solution, just pointing out the bind we're in. I'm actually not terribly prone to the "youth are just all messed up today compared to my generation" idea scheme, but while homo sapiens hasn't changed, the environment has changed radically and the amount of cognitive firepower being brought to bear on us to get our money and manipulate us has skyrocketed in the past decade or two. I've got a 11 and 8 year old and am still struggling through how to deal with it.
brainzap 7y ago
+1 I was thinking about this too, dopamine creating strong neurons which you cannot get rid off easily.

ihuman 7y ago

Its not related to the point of your comment, but Rocket League's loot boxes are going away https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/6/20757348/rocket-league-crates-leaving https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/6/20757348/rocket-league-crat...

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago

I'm a developer in Las Vegas and have worked in actual casino gaming and slot machines and I have never disagreed with a comment on Hacker News as much as I do this one. My perspective is that there are two kinds of people. Those who understand that slot machines are dangerous and a bad long term investment, and those who do not and gradually become more and more addicted to them. I've never seen a casino customer who was initially attracted to slot machine mechanics, gradually learn that they a poor exchange of value, overcome their addictive nature and stop playing them. They may stop playing because they are broke. They may learn to manage the addiction at a level they enjoy and can sustain. But they don't just suddenly understand that it's a bad deal and stop wanting to play.

jakobegger 7y ago

That's wishful thinking. You don't learn that gambling is bad by gambling a little bit and losing a bit of money. If people were rational enough for that, people wouldn't suffer from gambling addiction. There's only one way to protect kids from gambling: don't let them get near it.

autoexec 7y ago
I'd like to think that understanding how the brain responds to gambling, why the games are designed the way they are and how exploitative the companies behind them are being can help, but I wouldn't expect a child to be able to really grasp all that well enough.

dragontamer 7y ago

Its called a skinnerbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber Fully grown ADULTS fall prey to skinnerboxes (aka: Slot Machines) all the time. Its basic human psychology (heck: the skinnerbox is effective on virtually all Birds and Mammals). Its extremely fundamental to the function of the modern biological brain. Its literally a "brain hack". This isn't some "willpower away" sort of training. This is literally how your brain, and your children's brain works. As well as how your dog's brain, and the bird's brains and the cats brains, and deer brains. The only winning move is to not play. Its literally hopeless if you get sucked into a skinner box. You can't beat the biological functions of what your brain is designed to do. -------- I don't think there's "long term damage" to be suffered here. Human brains, just like the brains of any mammal (or bird), are prone to operant conditioning. If you RANDOMLY give a reward when a subject (be it human, mammal, or bird) pushes a button, the subject will continue to push the button over and over again. Its just biology. EDIT: And random-rewards are far stronger than consistent rewards. If a reward is consistent, then when it "stops", the subject believes that the pattern is over. But if the reward was Random, then the subject will continue pushing the button even long after the pattern has stopped or been modified.

droithomme 7y ago
It's not as fatalistic as you suggest: that randomly offered rewards always lead to complete zombie slave status in 100% of subjects, there's no way out, and the situation is hopeless. Studies have found propensities not absolutes across all subjects and species. For example, river otters are notoriously difficult to train using operant conditioning because they are extremely curious, but also bore easily. Getting them to repeat a behavior indefinitely using a reward is extremely difficult if not impossible. Likewise not all humans can be controlled as robot slaves incapable of escape as easily as the fatalistic determination description provided suggests. People can learn to recognize scams and avoid them. Maybe there are some people who simply never learn. Maybe. Probably not though. Addictions can be hard to overcome for many. But they are generally recoverable.
- dragontamer 7y ago

dpcan 7y ago

No no no no no. "It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, because in his eyes it makes it all worth it." THAT is the whole problem. Those rewards. Kids absolutely cannot understand how to cope with that feeling. Getting lucky and opening the thing they want becomes an expectation. They EXPECT to get lucky now. You can talk to your kid without spending a dime, without letting them engage in the activity. What else are you just going to "try" and then talk about? Let him smoke some cigarettes, get cancer, and then say, see son, there's a lesson to be learned here...... no.

hndamien 7y ago

This is very true! The words "it's a scam" is always fun for a kid to learn and repeat.