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Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skin

by ian0 7y ago

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we had to buy 10 boxes with random contents that could potentially contain a skin similar to the one he wanted. Watching his excitement opening up the boxes and his eventual disappointment at not receiving the one he wanted - plus subsequent enthusiasm to buy more coins courtesy of some lesser items granted, I realised Id made a horrible mistake. Id basically introduced a virtual pub gambling machine to a young kid. This sort of stuff is horrible.

skocznymroczny 7y ago
It doesn't allow you to buy the skins directly? In most F2P games I played (HotS, Paladins), you get random skins in lootboxes, but you can buy the skin directly, it just costs more than the lootbox (but obviously much cheaper than buying lootboxes hoping for that one specific skin).
- ssully 7y ago
  Apex let's you buy most skins directly, but only using a currency you earn from playing or by getting duplicate items from boxes. You can also earn skins from boxes that you earn from leveling up, or by buying directly. There is also a store where you can buy certain skins/items directly with money, but these items rotate (I think weekly?). Finally, there is a "battle pass" that lets you earn rewards by doing in game challenges (get so many skills in a certain part of the map, play as a certain character so many times, etc). The battle pass costs $10 US dollars. You can also spend real money to buy levels for your battle pass - so basically, dump money to earn everything, and avoid doing the challenges. Believe it or not, Apex is one of the better F2P games when it comes to ease of getting items without paying much money. With that said, I think my complicated description above serves as a good example of how filthy these games can get. If Apex is what is considered a "good" model, just imagine the bad ones.
  - TheCapn 7y ago
    I've always held Apex as an example of a Bad model when talking with people only tangentially knowledgeable of the topic. 1. Apex plays a real dirty game of hooking you on boxes then slowly phasing them out. You start by getting a box every level. Then every second level. Then every 5th level, then, no more boxes at all. Sure, once every few months a battlepass will be introduced that gives you another crack at free boxes (as of Season 2, Season 1 had no free boxes I believe). But they tease you all through the game: "If you buy our Season pass you'd have gotten a box at this level". 2. Limited availability You can never just go buy a skin unless its on the timed rotation. You miss that rotation? You're S.O.L.. Maybe it'll rotate in again? Maybe you need to gamble it to get it before the entire opportunity is gone (Limited events) 3. Hidden costs You can't exchange cash for skins. First you buy a "currency" and then you exchange that currency for the cosmetic. This again, is done with seedy practices like encouraging you to buy more currency than you need (you can only buy intervals of the currency, never just an exact amount to afford the skin). Then they go around and do shitty things like "discounting" a skin from 1,800 coins to 1,200 coins... but you can only buy coins in 1,000 or 2,000 intervals? 4. They bait people with promises You are guaranteed an heirloom item every 500 boxes. I'm pretty sure there's a 15 or 25 box limit on Legendaries too. So you get all your free boxes and didn't get a Legendary? Well just pay us for 10 more and you'll get it! 5. (Opinionated) The bang for your buck is low Most games I have experience with tie in special bonuses for the highest rarity items. Either they're changing the graphics of more than just your model (such as affecting particle effects of abilities) or they change voice lines and other unique features. Apex does none of that and a "Legendary" item is essentially just a higher effort skin. I argue the value of an "$18" skin is not worth that cost. Ranting further, "Legendary" is a loosely termed tier of cosmetic loot. A Legendary banner is far less valuable to people than a Legendary skin for their character or weapon. There's numerous guns that the developers have outright said are not meant to be late game viable so getting a Legendary skin for a gun you're suppose to discard eventually feels greedy. The boxes come with filler junk like "crafting material" that doesn't even afford you to buy a cosmetic item of the tier (Legendary skins are 1,200 materials, but a Legendary Crafting Material drop is only worth 600) --- With all that ranting done, I will say that I have like... 120 hours in Apex? I love the game, I do support the developers via Battle Pass but have no fantasy that their business model is "Good" and see many seedy practices occurring meant to hook people. The game is an absolute blast, but don't encourage the Loot Box bullshit, you can play the game, enjoy it and get everything it has to offer without paying them a dime.
kmlx 7y ago
i've played apex legend for more than 50 hours, and had no idea you could actually spend money in that game. but i also think there's a generational divide: while i would gladly pay games for a leg up (better weapons, higher jumps, that sort of thing), i would never ever buy a "skin" for my character, or anything superficial for that matter. but I see kids getting completely hooked on this. and i don't really get it. i mean, from a young age i would hack the game and add whatever i wanted (including skins), so maybe that's why asking me to pay for something as useless as a "skin" will never fly with me.
- crispyporkbites 7y ago
  It’s exactly the same reason people pay for fashion. The clothes don’t provide practical benefit, yet people still pay 100x more for branding. And you can’t hack this because these are multiplayer games.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    yes, but fashion in games? paying for worthless pixels? i do get what you're saying thou...
    - crispyporkbites 7y ago
      People play these games with their friends online. They also stream to potentially millions of people. Their online persona is part of their identity. For some people, buying an expensive in game item makes them feel rich/successful/whatever, and some people will complement/judge them on their taste/expenditure etc. It’s no different to buying a Rolex, a fast car or Louis vuitton hand bag. All of them are functionally the same but convey something about the owner
    - simonh 7y ago
      Online multiplayer games are how kids socialise online these days. They don't meet up on Facebook, they meet up on Fortnite or Minecraft. Appearance is an important status indicator.
beobab 7y ago
Hmmm. I definitely don't like the "give me a ton of money, and you might get what you want" payment mechanism. I saw it with PacMan cards and football cards back in the 80's, and then Pokemon cards for my own children. I got "stung" enough by a trader in London who demonstrated that you shouldn't buy a pig in a poke. I still keep the cheap trinket I got instead as a reminder to always find out what I'm paying for.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  With Pokemon cards, you can at least buy specific cards from sellers. Many loot box items cannot be traded.
  - input_sh 7y ago
    They can't be traded for legal reasons. If you were able to trade them, that would mean they'd have monetary value. As such, they'd be a nail in the coffin of labeling loot boxes as gambling. A quote from the report[0]: > At present, the Gambling Commission states that purchasing loot boxes does not meet the regulatory definition of licensable gambling under the Gambling Act 2005 because the in-game items have no real-world monetary value outside the games. They later reference this written evidence[1] that suggest that such legal framework is too tight and needs to be broadened. [0] https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1846/184606.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcu... [1] http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/immersive-and-addictive-technologies/written/94835.pdf http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence....
    - kalcode 7y ago
      Pretty important point for how far we should regulate something. I think the gaming community would want loot-boxes completely banned under the guise of "gambling". The individuals that would spend an unhealthy amount on these loot-boxes are not individuals that will stop their behavior if lootboxes are banned or even regulated. These individuals have know that you can't get your money back, you can't earn more money and you can blow your life savings on it. With no return promised, monetarily, these individuals know the money they spend can't be gambled back. Thats the crux of gambling and their laws. People truly believes one more bet and they can get it all back. It's insane if a person on Overwatch or Fortnite truly believes the money they waste if beyond their budget is a good investment at all. That problem lies with the individual not EA and loot boxes. Those people will have constant issues with their finance until they seek the help they need to stop. That could be learning better budgeting behavior to identifying they have a gambling problem. That could be a gambling impulse but really we know people that constantly spend their money carelessly regardless of some mental addiction. A lot of people lack of financial control shouldn't create laws to dictate to companies what they should do, especially in a market saturated with competition that don't deploy any of these practices simply because these people refuse to follow a monthly budget thats within their means. We don't remove things from society just cause others have difficulty with it. Now I have no issue with more regulations especially targeted at kids, but let's be honest here. Most of this should still fall on parents and education. Companies caught pushing to sell these random loot-boxes to kids should be addressed and fined. Especially the ones that use streams that buy these boxes and open them with kids audiences. These companies that sponsored these streamers should receives fines for targeting kids. Also like to see some form of guarantee or odds exposure. Long rant, but I find the fact you can't get monetary value back makes it extremely different than the current types of gambling and should effect the way we regulate it. End of the day, when no monetary value can be extracted we are regulating random chance and rewards...silly path to go down to call anything random and rewarding essentially gambling.
kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
Once his money has run out, he might have learned a valuable lesson. Also perhaps better than spending the money on sweets.
- xxs 7y ago
  you mean, next time the kid has money would be spent again? Teaching kids to gamble is a horrid idea. >Also perhaps better than spending the money on sweets. Yeah, the kid must be overweight as well. What about books, toys or cinema? And for instance I don't mind my kid having an ice cream with 6 (outside school) trainings a week
  - kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
    The idea of pocket money is usually that kids can spend it on what they want. That includes sweets. Although of course parents can say "no" - but that goes for virtual items, too. Teaching kids to gamble - I would see it as the opposite, teaching them not to gamble. They will be confronted with gambling opportunities all through their lives, with higher stakes. Better to learn with pocket money. Here in Germany afaik there is also a law that children are not able to do business transactions. That means if you sell something to a kid, the parents can come back to you and say the transaction is invalid. I wonder how that works out with virtual goods and games?
    - Spooks 7y ago
      If people learnt not to gamble by gambling there would be nobody with gambling problems. Teaching kids how not to gamble by gambling can be pretty bad for people who have addictive personalities, getting that gambling high and wanting to replicate that again and again. Teaching your kid it is a waste of money and not to endorse that practice might be a better choice.
      - kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
        It's not "teaching not to gamble by gambling", obviously. You have to talk with your kid, explain the methods of the gambling games, and stuff like that. I don't think shielding kids from everything bad in the world usually results in them being able to deal well with bad things in the world as adults. Not saying they should play those games that have gambling elements. But I also don't find it straightforward to say it is unequivocally bad. With sweets I know stories of kids who weren't allowed any sweets who developed an excessive sweet tooth later on.
scandinavegan 7y ago
No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, because in his eyes it makes it all worth it. I see the money I give him as teaching opportunities. Kids will get in touch with these mechanics as they grow up, and now you have the chance to talk to him about it. Discuss it over and over, it's not a one-time thing, and you've made no permanent damage. Let him know you think it's not worth it, but I wouldn't put a permanent ban on it, as it may make it even more appealing. If he wants other (real-life) stuff later, remind him that he already spent his money on loot boxes and I think they will lose their appeal a bit.
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  On the plus side, at least in Rocket League you can trade others for the skins. There is a market rate of items due to this. This is not always the case on apex legends, where some limited offer items are only obtainable from loot boxes.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    The market rates are purely manifestations of drop rates, so a rare item will likely be extremely expensive/unaffordable.
    - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
      Sure, but there is a ceiling on any item that isn't one of the super super rare items that barely anyone goes for except the extreme collectors. (Usually an item that goes for much cheaper but has a special tag on it that's only visible to you.) In apex there have been posts from people who have spent thousands to try to unlock a particular item. Literally opening the same random box 400 times and failing to get the item.
    - 7y ago
baybal2 7y ago
> Watching his excitement opening up the boxes and his eventual disappointment at not receiving the one he wanted - plus subsequent enthusiasm to buy more coins courtesy of some lesser items granted, I realised Id made a horrible mistake. Id basically introduced a virtual pub gambling machine to a young kid. I'm afraid you are going through what Chinese and to some extend Russian parents went through 1 and 2 decades ago. Chinese parents understood long ago what businesses like Google and Tencent were are all about. In China, they call them "pocket slot machines" The very reason they link the game to your bank account is to milk money from you, or god forbid, your children. My former high school classmate who did not manage to leave Russia is running a typical "smartphone fixer" kiosk. He said few years ago that the most common request he gets from people is to "remove Google nagware and lock, block or delete Google Pay" so their child will never ever buy anything "in that Internet thing," and do the same for clickfarming "social" apps.
jason46 7y ago
My 13yr old son has spent $100s on fortnite, I told him he's going to regret that when he wishes he saved for a car, or something that will matter in 6months. I definitely blew my fair share on video games, but I also believe this is a generational shift. I do not believe charging $$ for "cosmetics" would have been as successful in "my day". But what does it mean?
- save_ferris 7y ago
  One major difference to point out is that fortnite doesn’t have loot boxes, you know exactly what you’re getting when spending their online currency. I keep hearing about the social aspects behind these games (kids who don’t have skins in fortnite are bullied at school, etc.) It sounds like goods that make a child popular are just digital these days as opposed to physical items like Pokémon cards.
  - jason46 7y ago
    I feel 20 or so years ago kids that spent money on something that didn't provide a clear benefit would have been bullied. My wife was a gamer, when my son first asked for a gift card to buy a skin it was fun watching him try to explain that there is no benefit and it only changes the look. My wife kept asking him why do you want this?
    - amyjess 7y ago
      20 years ago, kids were being bullied for not wearing Abercrombie & Fitch. I was in high school then. The people who didn't care about aesthetics were always the ones bullied.
    - save_ferris 7y ago
      You and I grew up in very, very different worlds then. Most things that made kids in my community were purely consumerist. Air Jordans, Pokémon cards, brand name clothes like hollister and AE, and then popular phones like the razer were ubiquitous among those that were popular. Kids who didn’t have those things were bullied relentlessly.
mcrocop309 7y ago
Let him lose his money so he understands how it feels. It might prevent him from losing his house to bookies in the future.
SkyBelow 7y ago
I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Pokemon cards where I saw the same behavior in kids back then. Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it?
- benologist 7y ago
  The difference is you walked into a shop with cash and couldn't accidentally buy 100 packets in the space of five minutes. They couldn't take your parent's bank card and let you spend thousands of dollars because your parents would come back to the store. The transaction amount and cash exchange was not deliberately obfuscated with layers of contrived pseudo-currencies when we bought packets of cards either. Facebook maliciously obfuscated virtual currency abstractions once they realized kids disassociating the cash transaction was a great way to bump their numbers - https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly-duped-game-playing-kids-and-their-parents-out-of-money/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly-duped-...
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    It seems in this case, the use of a fake virtual currency to disassociate it from real money is the underlying problem. And in that case, I do not see any analogies to existing TCG booster packs. Also, it would mean the problem extends to more than just loot boxes, and as such even in games where there aren't lootboxes regulation would still be needed when virtual currency can be bought with actual currency.
- input_sh 7y ago
  > Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it? Absolutely. Including hiring former casino personnel. Cards don't have flashy lights, music, nor the concept of a near miss. You could call them the same only if you ignore all the context around it. For example, I know of no cards where you can purchase a more expensive card pack that has slightly higher odds of getting something good. Different loot boxes costing different amounts of money with the only difference being a slight increase in percentages are a completely common occurence.
IMAYousaf 7y ago
FWIW, you can buy specific skins that are on the character loadout with very few exceptions. I've never paid for premium in the game, just used the in game currency. The confusion with Apex is that there are 3 types of currency. One is the in game free currency. That's typically used to unlock characters who cost 12,000 units. The second currency are the gold coins, which are used as premium purchasing power from the devs for things like the battlepass and specific items in the rotating store. The third currency refers to materials. Materials can be used to purchase any skin/celebration/quip etc. Materials can be bought with gold. I believe that you purchased the wrong thing. If you really want a particular skin it's not that hard to get!
- ian0 7y ago
  >> Materials can be used to purchase any skin/celebration/quip etc. Materials can be bought with gold. This is what we thought too but theres no way to buy materials with gold. Only through Apex packs. Eg [0], [1]. [0] https://www.shacknews.com/article/109806/how-to-get-crafting-metals-and-materials-in-apex-legends https://www.shacknews.com/article/109806/how-to-get-crafting... [1] https://www.techjunkie.com/get-crafting-metals-apex-legends/ https://www.techjunkie.com/get-crafting-metals-apex-legends/
droithomme 7y ago
I dealt with my kids getting scammed like this in the past. I laughed and mocked them and explained how the scam works and how these companies hire industrial psychologists to facilitate their cons. Then learn how to avoid the scam in the future, and also later mock and ridicule their friends who fall for similar scams. This results in those friends learning to avoid these scams and teach others how not to get fooled. Much transactions in the world are scams run by con men. Wise parents teach their kids. No better way to learn than from losing some real money in a scam, as long as you recognize the principles involved and it helps increase your distrust and skepticism of others in the future. In the end, only the paranoid survive. Only con artists and rubes claim otherwise. Street skills are paramount, something few schools teach, by design. Should we ban kids from these games? Maybe not. This is a good way to learn about scams as long as you learn. Games should instead be required to disclose the scam after fooling the prey, and thus become educational. Where people get into trouble is when they've been so sheltered and protected that they hit the legal contract age of 18 and believe fairy tales that the world is good and people can be trusted. Those poor kids are ripe for the plucking by the predators and get into a lot of trouble. Many lives are ruined at that point. Better to let them get ripped off a few times when younger for small amounts with these games. Regulation should focus an making rip offs of minors be fully refundable upon request, and to require scam disclosure. Scamming kids without disclosing how the scam works should be punishable with long prison sentences for everyone involved in the scam, executives, programmers, accountants, graphic artists. Games can be educational and there's no better lesson than how the adult world is actually going to work.
- autoexec 7y ago
  > Games should instead be required to disclose the scam after fooling the prey, and thus become educational. this just means every company can try to scam children as many times as they want. Either they keep making up new ways to trick children, or they word their disclosure of the scams in a way children can't understand so they keep falling for it. Either way allowing companies to prey on children so that they learn better is like letting people lure children into the back of vans so they "learn their lesson" after they get raped. It'd be far better to forbid companies from predatory practices when we identify them and also try to educate kids on the tactics used against them and how to identify them, but that kind of education has to happen throughout their development. The companies who make these games hire people with advanced degrees to research, design and and implement the most additive systems possible. The reality is that children don't have the mental capacity to fully understand everything involved. I agree that we should instill a distrust of corporations in our children and that we should try to build their defenses against manipulation, but learning by letting them be repeatedly exploited is some very backwards thinking. I think you could probably get the same results by creating games specifically designed to demonstrate ways companies try to take advantage of us and you could do it without giving companies a chance to profit off your "teaching" method.
piokoch 7y ago
Yes, this is horrible and more and more toys, games are like this. That's why such products should get the same license as gambling companies. They should pay for license, they should have proper responsible gaming policy, ability to self-exclude, in case of products for kids, their parents should be informed that given product is a gambling product (older parents might not be aware of this), etc.

by ian0 7y ago

skocznymroczny 7y ago

It doesn't allow you to buy the skins directly? In most F2P games I played (HotS, Paladins), you get random skins in lootboxes, but you can buy the skin directly, it just costs more than the lootbox (but obviously much cheaper than buying lootboxes hoping for that one specific skin).

ssully 7y ago
Apex let's you buy most skins directly, but only using a currency you earn from playing or by getting duplicate items from boxes. You can also earn skins from boxes that you earn from leveling up, or by buying directly. There is also a store where you can buy certain skins/items directly with money, but these items rotate (I think weekly?). Finally, there is a "battle pass" that lets you earn rewards by doing in game challenges (get so many skills in a certain part of the map, play as a certain character so many times, etc). The battle pass costs $10 US dollars. You can also spend real money to buy levels for your battle pass - so basically, dump money to earn everything, and avoid doing the challenges. Believe it or not, Apex is one of the better F2P games when it comes to ease of getting items without paying much money. With that said, I think my complicated description above serves as a good example of how filthy these games can get. If Apex is what is considered a "good" model, just imagine the bad ones.
- TheCapn 7y ago
  I've always held Apex as an example of a Bad model when talking with people only tangentially knowledgeable of the topic. 1. Apex plays a real dirty game of hooking you on boxes then slowly phasing them out. You start by getting a box every level. Then every second level. Then every 5th level, then, no more boxes at all. Sure, once every few months a battlepass will be introduced that gives you another crack at free boxes (as of Season 2, Season 1 had no free boxes I believe). But they tease you all through the game: "If you buy our Season pass you'd have gotten a box at this level". 2. Limited availability You can never just go buy a skin unless its on the timed rotation. You miss that rotation? You're S.O.L.. Maybe it'll rotate in again? Maybe you need to gamble it to get it before the entire opportunity is gone (Limited events) 3. Hidden costs You can't exchange cash for skins. First you buy a "currency" and then you exchange that currency for the cosmetic. This again, is done with seedy practices like encouraging you to buy more currency than you need (you can only buy intervals of the currency, never just an exact amount to afford the skin). Then they go around and do shitty things like "discounting" a skin from 1,800 coins to 1,200 coins... but you can only buy coins in 1,000 or 2,000 intervals? 4. They bait people with promises You are guaranteed an heirloom item every 500 boxes. I'm pretty sure there's a 15 or 25 box limit on Legendaries too. So you get all your free boxes and didn't get a Legendary? Well just pay us for 10 more and you'll get it! 5. (Opinionated) The bang for your buck is low Most games I have experience with tie in special bonuses for the highest rarity items. Either they're changing the graphics of more than just your model (such as affecting particle effects of abilities) or they change voice lines and other unique features. Apex does none of that and a "Legendary" item is essentially just a higher effort skin. I argue the value of an "$18" skin is not worth that cost. Ranting further, "Legendary" is a loosely termed tier of cosmetic loot. A Legendary banner is far less valuable to people than a Legendary skin for their character or weapon. There's numerous guns that the developers have outright said are not meant to be late game viable so getting a Legendary skin for a gun you're suppose to discard eventually feels greedy. The boxes come with filler junk like "crafting material" that doesn't even afford you to buy a cosmetic item of the tier (Legendary skins are 1,200 materials, but a Legendary Crafting Material drop is only worth 600) --- With all that ranting done, I will say that I have like... 120 hours in Apex? I love the game, I do support the developers via Battle Pass but have no fantasy that their business model is "Good" and see many seedy practices occurring meant to hook people. The game is an absolute blast, but don't encourage the Loot Box bullshit, you can play the game, enjoy it and get everything it has to offer without paying them a dime.

kmlx 7y ago

i've played apex legend for more than 50 hours, and had no idea you could actually spend money in that game. but i also think there's a generational divide: while i would gladly pay games for a leg up (better weapons, higher jumps, that sort of thing), i would never ever buy a "skin" for my character, or anything superficial for that matter. but I see kids getting completely hooked on this. and i don't really get it. i mean, from a young age i would hack the game and add whatever i wanted (including skins), so maybe that's why asking me to pay for something as useless as a "skin" will never fly with me.

crispyporkbites 7y ago
It’s exactly the same reason people pay for fashion. The clothes don’t provide practical benefit, yet people still pay 100x more for branding. And you can’t hack this because these are multiplayer games.
- kmlx 7y ago
  yes, but fashion in games? paying for worthless pixels? i do get what you're saying thou...
  - crispyporkbites 7y ago
    People play these games with their friends online. They also stream to potentially millions of people. Their online persona is part of their identity. For some people, buying an expensive in game item makes them feel rich/successful/whatever, and some people will complement/judge them on their taste/expenditure etc. It’s no different to buying a Rolex, a fast car or Louis vuitton hand bag. All of them are functionally the same but convey something about the owner
  - simonh 7y ago
    Online multiplayer games are how kids socialise online these days. They don't meet up on Facebook, they meet up on Fortnite or Minecraft. Appearance is an important status indicator.

beobab 7y ago

Hmmm. I definitely don't like the "give me a ton of money, and you might get what you want" payment mechanism. I saw it with PacMan cards and football cards back in the 80's, and then Pokemon cards for my own children. I got "stung" enough by a trader in London who demonstrated that you shouldn't buy a pig in a poke. I still keep the cheap trinket I got instead as a reminder to always find out what I'm paying for.

beatgammit 7y ago
With Pokemon cards, you can at least buy specific cards from sellers. Many loot box items cannot be traded.
- input_sh 7y ago
  They can't be traded for legal reasons. If you were able to trade them, that would mean they'd have monetary value. As such, they'd be a nail in the coffin of labeling loot boxes as gambling. A quote from the report[0]: > At present, the Gambling Commission states that purchasing loot boxes does not meet the regulatory definition of licensable gambling under the Gambling Act 2005 because the in-game items have no real-world monetary value outside the games. They later reference this written evidence[1] that suggest that such legal framework is too tight and needs to be broadened. [0] https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1846/184606.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcu... [1] http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/immersive-and-addictive-technologies/written/94835.pdf http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence....
  - kalcode 7y ago
    Pretty important point for how far we should regulate something. I think the gaming community would want loot-boxes completely banned under the guise of "gambling". The individuals that would spend an unhealthy amount on these loot-boxes are not individuals that will stop their behavior if lootboxes are banned or even regulated. These individuals have know that you can't get your money back, you can't earn more money and you can blow your life savings on it. With no return promised, monetarily, these individuals know the money they spend can't be gambled back. Thats the crux of gambling and their laws. People truly believes one more bet and they can get it all back. It's insane if a person on Overwatch or Fortnite truly believes the money they waste if beyond their budget is a good investment at all. That problem lies with the individual not EA and loot boxes. Those people will have constant issues with their finance until they seek the help they need to stop. That could be learning better budgeting behavior to identifying they have a gambling problem. That could be a gambling impulse but really we know people that constantly spend their money carelessly regardless of some mental addiction. A lot of people lack of financial control shouldn't create laws to dictate to companies what they should do, especially in a market saturated with competition that don't deploy any of these practices simply because these people refuse to follow a monthly budget thats within their means. We don't remove things from society just cause others have difficulty with it. Now I have no issue with more regulations especially targeted at kids, but let's be honest here. Most of this should still fall on parents and education. Companies caught pushing to sell these random loot-boxes to kids should be addressed and fined. Especially the ones that use streams that buy these boxes and open them with kids audiences. These companies that sponsored these streamers should receives fines for targeting kids. Also like to see some form of guarantee or odds exposure. Long rant, but I find the fact you can't get monetary value back makes it extremely different than the current types of gambling and should effect the way we regulate it. End of the day, when no monetary value can be extracted we are regulating random chance and rewards...silly path to go down to call anything random and rewarding essentially gambling.

kmjg88nvf8 7y ago

Once his money has run out, he might have learned a valuable lesson. Also perhaps better than spending the money on sweets.

xxs 7y ago
you mean, next time the kid has money would be spent again? Teaching kids to gamble is a horrid idea. >Also perhaps better than spending the money on sweets. Yeah, the kid must be overweight as well. What about books, toys or cinema? And for instance I don't mind my kid having an ice cream with 6 (outside school) trainings a week
- kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
  The idea of pocket money is usually that kids can spend it on what they want. That includes sweets. Although of course parents can say "no" - but that goes for virtual items, too. Teaching kids to gamble - I would see it as the opposite, teaching them not to gamble. They will be confronted with gambling opportunities all through their lives, with higher stakes. Better to learn with pocket money. Here in Germany afaik there is also a law that children are not able to do business transactions. That means if you sell something to a kid, the parents can come back to you and say the transaction is invalid. I wonder how that works out with virtual goods and games?
  - Spooks 7y ago
    If people learnt not to gamble by gambling there would be nobody with gambling problems. Teaching kids how not to gamble by gambling can be pretty bad for people who have addictive personalities, getting that gambling high and wanting to replicate that again and again. Teaching your kid it is a waste of money and not to endorse that practice might be a better choice.
    - kmjg88nvf8 7y ago
      It's not "teaching not to gamble by gambling", obviously. You have to talk with your kid, explain the methods of the gambling games, and stuff like that. I don't think shielding kids from everything bad in the world usually results in them being able to deal well with bad things in the world as adults. Not saying they should play those games that have gambling elements. But I also don't find it straightforward to say it is unequivocally bad. With sweets I know stories of kids who weren't allowed any sweets who developed an excessive sweet tooth later on.

scandinavegan 7y ago

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, because in his eyes it makes it all worth it. I see the money I give him as teaching opportunities. Kids will get in touch with these mechanics as they grow up, and now you have the chance to talk to him about it. Discuss it over and over, it's not a one-time thing, and you've made no permanent damage. Let him know you think it's not worth it, but I wouldn't put a permanent ban on it, as it may make it even more appealing. If he wants other (real-life) stuff later, remind him that he already spent his money on loot boxes and I think they will lose their appeal a bit.

JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
On the plus side, at least in Rocket League you can trade others for the skins. There is a market rate of items due to this. This is not always the case on apex legends, where some limited offer items are only obtainable from loot boxes.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  The market rates are purely manifestations of drop rates, so a rare item will likely be extremely expensive/unaffordable.
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    Sure, but there is a ceiling on any item that isn't one of the super super rare items that barely anyone goes for except the extreme collectors. (Usually an item that goes for much cheaper but has a special tag on it that's only visible to you.) In apex there have been posts from people who have spent thousands to try to unlock a particular item. Literally opening the same random box 400 times and failing to get the item.
  - 7y ago

baybal2 7y ago

> Watching his excitement opening up the boxes and his eventual disappointment at not receiving the one he wanted - plus subsequent enthusiasm to buy more coins courtesy of some lesser items granted, I realised Id made a horrible mistake. Id basically introduced a virtual pub gambling machine to a young kid. I'm afraid you are going through what Chinese and to some extend Russian parents went through 1 and 2 decades ago. Chinese parents understood long ago what businesses like Google and Tencent were are all about. In China, they call them "pocket slot machines" The very reason they link the game to your bank account is to milk money from you, or god forbid, your children. My former high school classmate who did not manage to leave Russia is running a typical "smartphone fixer" kiosk. He said few years ago that the most common request he gets from people is to "remove Google nagware and lock, block or delete Google Pay" so their child will never ever buy anything "in that Internet thing," and do the same for clickfarming "social" apps.

jason46 7y ago

My 13yr old son has spent $100s on fortnite, I told him he's going to regret that when he wishes he saved for a car, or something that will matter in 6months. I definitely blew my fair share on video games, but I also believe this is a generational shift. I do not believe charging $$ for "cosmetics" would have been as successful in "my day". But what does it mean?

save_ferris 7y ago
One major difference to point out is that fortnite doesn’t have loot boxes, you know exactly what you’re getting when spending their online currency. I keep hearing about the social aspects behind these games (kids who don’t have skins in fortnite are bullied at school, etc.) It sounds like goods that make a child popular are just digital these days as opposed to physical items like Pokémon cards.
- jason46 7y ago
  I feel 20 or so years ago kids that spent money on something that didn't provide a clear benefit would have been bullied. My wife was a gamer, when my son first asked for a gift card to buy a skin it was fun watching him try to explain that there is no benefit and it only changes the look. My wife kept asking him why do you want this?
  - amyjess 7y ago
    20 years ago, kids were being bullied for not wearing Abercrombie & Fitch. I was in high school then. The people who didn't care about aesthetics were always the ones bullied.
  - save_ferris 7y ago
    You and I grew up in very, very different worlds then. Most things that made kids in my community were purely consumerist. Air Jordans, Pokémon cards, brand name clothes like hollister and AE, and then popular phones like the razer were ubiquitous among those that were popular. Kids who didn’t have those things were bullied relentlessly.

mcrocop309 7y ago

Let him lose his money so he understands how it feels. It might prevent him from losing his house to bookies in the future.

SkyBelow 7y ago

I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Pokemon cards where I saw the same behavior in kids back then. Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it?

benologist 7y ago
The difference is you walked into a shop with cash and couldn't accidentally buy 100 packets in the space of five minutes. They couldn't take your parent's bank card and let you spend thousands of dollars because your parents would come back to the store. The transaction amount and cash exchange was not deliberately obfuscated with layers of contrived pseudo-currencies when we bought packets of cards either. Facebook maliciously obfuscated virtual currency abstractions once they realized kids disassociating the cash transaction was a great way to bump their numbers - https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly-duped-game-playing-kids-and-their-parents-out-of-money/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly-duped-...
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  It seems in this case, the use of a fake virtual currency to disassociate it from real money is the underlying problem. And in that case, I do not see any analogies to existing TCG booster packs. Also, it would mean the problem extends to more than just loot boxes, and as such even in games where there aren't lootboxes regulation would still be needed when virtual currency can be bought with actual currency.
input_sh 7y ago
> Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it? Absolutely. Including hiring former casino personnel. Cards don't have flashy lights, music, nor the concept of a near miss. You could call them the same only if you ignore all the context around it. For example, I know of no cards where you can purchase a more expensive card pack that has slightly higher odds of getting something good. Different loot boxes costing different amounts of money with the only difference being a slight increase in percentages are a completely common occurence.

IMAYousaf 7y ago

FWIW, you can buy specific skins that are on the character loadout with very few exceptions. I've never paid for premium in the game, just used the in game currency. The confusion with Apex is that there are 3 types of currency. One is the in game free currency. That's typically used to unlock characters who cost 12,000 units. The second currency are the gold coins, which are used as premium purchasing power from the devs for things like the battlepass and specific items in the rotating store. The third currency refers to materials. Materials can be used to purchase any skin/celebration/quip etc. Materials can be bought with gold. I believe that you purchased the wrong thing. If you really want a particular skin it's not that hard to get!

ian0 7y ago
>> Materials can be used to purchase any skin/celebration/quip etc. Materials can be bought with gold. This is what we thought too but theres no way to buy materials with gold. Only through Apex packs. Eg [0], [1]. [0] https://www.shacknews.com/article/109806/how-to-get-crafting-metals-and-materials-in-apex-legends https://www.shacknews.com/article/109806/how-to-get-crafting... [1] https://www.techjunkie.com/get-crafting-metals-apex-legends/ https://www.techjunkie.com/get-crafting-metals-apex-legends/

droithomme 7y ago

I dealt with my kids getting scammed like this in the past. I laughed and mocked them and explained how the scam works and how these companies hire industrial psychologists to facilitate their cons. Then learn how to avoid the scam in the future, and also later mock and ridicule their friends who fall for similar scams. This results in those friends learning to avoid these scams and teach others how not to get fooled. Much transactions in the world are scams run by con men. Wise parents teach their kids. No better way to learn than from losing some real money in a scam, as long as you recognize the principles involved and it helps increase your distrust and skepticism of others in the future. In the end, only the paranoid survive. Only con artists and rubes claim otherwise. Street skills are paramount, something few schools teach, by design. Should we ban kids from these games? Maybe not. This is a good way to learn about scams as long as you learn. Games should instead be required to disclose the scam after fooling the prey, and thus become educational. Where people get into trouble is when they've been so sheltered and protected that they hit the legal contract age of 18 and believe fairy tales that the world is good and people can be trusted. Those poor kids are ripe for the plucking by the predators and get into a lot of trouble. Many lives are ruined at that point. Better to let them get ripped off a few times when younger for small amounts with these games. Regulation should focus an making rip offs of minors be fully refundable upon request, and to require scam disclosure. Scamming kids without disclosing how the scam works should be punishable with long prison sentences for everyone involved in the scam, executives, programmers, accountants, graphic artists. Games can be educational and there's no better lesson than how the adult world is actually going to work.

autoexec 7y ago
> Games should instead be required to disclose the scam after fooling the prey, and thus become educational. this just means every company can try to scam children as many times as they want. Either they keep making up new ways to trick children, or they word their disclosure of the scams in a way children can't understand so they keep falling for it. Either way allowing companies to prey on children so that they learn better is like letting people lure children into the back of vans so they "learn their lesson" after they get raped. It'd be far better to forbid companies from predatory practices when we identify them and also try to educate kids on the tactics used against them and how to identify them, but that kind of education has to happen throughout their development. The companies who make these games hire people with advanced degrees to research, design and and implement the most additive systems possible. The reality is that children don't have the mental capacity to fully understand everything involved. I agree that we should instill a distrust of corporations in our children and that we should try to build their defenses against manipulation, but learning by letting them be repeatedly exploited is some very backwards thinking. I think you could probably get the same results by creating games specifically designed to demonstrate ways companies try to take advantage of us and you could do it without giving companies a chance to profit off your "teaching" method.

piokoch 7y ago

Yes, this is horrible and more and more toys, games are like this. That's why such products should get the same license as gambling companies. They should pay for license, they should have proper responsible gaming policy, ability to self-exclude, in case of products for kids, their parents should be informed that given product is a gambling product (older parents might not be aware of this), etc.