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In Finland the highest you can hope for as an employed software developer is around 90,000 EUR a year, but average is less than 60k. Signing bonuses I've never

by nylemi 7y ago

In Finland the highest you can hope for as an employed software developer is around 90,000 EUR a year, but average is less than 60k. Signing bonuses I've never heard of and if you get stock options, you usually need to cut your salary expectations a lot. Being freelancer you can get to around 150k-200k though. Of course at these higher figures the effective tax rate increases to around 50%

pembrook 7y ago
What are hourly rates like in Finland for freelance devs and product design folk? Curious how they compare to Germany. Since Finland has a much smaller economy, is it difficult to stay employed the whole year on a freelance basis? And do you have to go through a contracting company?
- nylemi 7y ago
  I've been freelancing now for two years and have been in projects 37.5 hours/week without pause except for vacations. There is a lot of demand here. The hourly rate depends. I've been getting 90€/hour except with one client I managed 110 €/hour. I've always made direct contracts with customers, no contracting company in between. But there's a lot of those companies around who would happily help you find projects and sell your time through them so they also get a cut.
TrackerFF 7y ago
I'm from Norway, and we do have salaries in the same ballpark - a tad higher. Even though it's expensive to live here, we're not anywhere near San Francisco, in terms of say housing prices. And there are many other things I also never have to worry about, without getting too political about the issues.
throwaway122379 7y ago
In Ireland starting is about EUR 40K, Senior would be about 55-60K, about 10-20K more in Dublin but you would spend that on rent alone side note: above 33K tax is 50%+ on each and every euro, about 20% below How does one relocate to the US, sigh
- aparc123 7y ago
  Google has an office Dublin with SRE and SWE
nugget 7y ago
I’m surprised there aren’t more startups in EU countries since the opportunity cost of lost corporate salary is lower. Or maybe there are, and we just don’t hear about them?
- tomp 7y ago
  I don’t know about US and Finland, but many EU countries have a “gross salary” (60-100k) and also a “gross gross salary” which is the actual cost to the company, which is another 10-20% on top of the “gross salary”. It’s things like social contribution. (In addition, the “net salary” is much lower in EU than in the US for equivalent “gross salary”.)
- adventured 7y ago
  The EU (Europe more widely) does have a fair share of small start-ups. There are two primary problems however. First is the lack of venture capital. Major economies like Germany and France are still only typically seeing $3 or $4 billion per year in venture capital investment (an improvement over five years ago granted). The US has averaged around $85 billion per year over the prior six years, or over half a trillion dollars in that time. With interest rates & yields heading permanently lower in the US, it's likely we'll see $100+ billion routinely in annual VC in the coming decade (outside of down blips in recessions), as capital desperately chases returns. The EU has typically been closer to $15 billion per year, with a few higher years more recently. You can't compete at those levels. Countries like Finland, Poland, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, Austria, etc. are regularly seeing only $100-$300 million per year in VC. Spain is a major economy and they struggle to consistently attract $750m-$1b per year. Europe needs to pump up its VC figures considerably; more start-ups, more funding, pay engineers higher wages to retain & attract more talent (SV has been pillaging Europe for talent for decades). The VC funding per capita in the US - 330m people - is around $250 give or take. For Italy it's about $3. That's obscene, Italy has a $2 trillion economy and $34k GDP per capita. Something needs to be done to dramatically increase such figures, probably both at the local level and the EU level. Second is the difficulty in going from a small start-up with a small amount of venture capital, to try to scale out rapidly across the EU, much less the world. It's extremely difficult, versus the springboard US start-ups get to launch from, starting with far more capital, in a richer, larger, homogeneous economy. Canada would be the fifth largest economy in Europe, and US start-ups get that market for basically free (so to speak; low cultural barriers, relatively easy market access, very close geographic proximity). Then finally to make the situation worse, large US tech companies routinely eat the European start-ups before they grow up. That interrupts the potential for larger exits & spread-the-wealth effects that roll/compound over decades (helping to build sustainable funding ecosystems), like you've seen over time in California. For US companies it's a great source of talent acquisition.

by nylemi 7y ago

pembrook 7y ago

What are hourly rates like in Finland for freelance devs and product design folk? Curious how they compare to Germany. Since Finland has a much smaller economy, is it difficult to stay employed the whole year on a freelance basis? And do you have to go through a contracting company?

nylemi 7y ago
I've been freelancing now for two years and have been in projects 37.5 hours/week without pause except for vacations. There is a lot of demand here. The hourly rate depends. I've been getting 90€/hour except with one client I managed 110 €/hour. I've always made direct contracts with customers, no contracting company in between. But there's a lot of those companies around who would happily help you find projects and sell your time through them so they also get a cut.

TrackerFF 7y ago

I'm from Norway, and we do have salaries in the same ballpark - a tad higher. Even though it's expensive to live here, we're not anywhere near San Francisco, in terms of say housing prices. And there are many other things I also never have to worry about, without getting too political about the issues.

throwaway122379 7y ago

In Ireland starting is about EUR 40K, Senior would be about 55-60K, about 10-20K more in Dublin but you would spend that on rent alone side note: above 33K tax is 50%+ on each and every euro, about 20% below How does one relocate to the US, sigh

aparc123 7y ago
Google has an office Dublin with SRE and SWE

nugget 7y ago

I’m surprised there aren’t more startups in EU countries since the opportunity cost of lost corporate salary is lower. Or maybe there are, and we just don’t hear about them?

tomp 7y ago
I don’t know about US and Finland, but many EU countries have a “gross salary” (60-100k) and also a “gross gross salary” which is the actual cost to the company, which is another 10-20% on top of the “gross salary”. It’s things like social contribution. (In addition, the “net salary” is much lower in EU than in the US for equivalent “gross salary”.)
adventured 7y ago
The EU (Europe more widely) does have a fair share of small start-ups. There are two primary problems however. First is the lack of venture capital. Major economies like Germany and France are still only typically seeing $3 or $4 billion per year in venture capital investment (an improvement over five years ago granted). The US has averaged around $85 billion per year over the prior six years, or over half a trillion dollars in that time. With interest rates & yields heading permanently lower in the US, it's likely we'll see $100+ billion routinely in annual VC in the coming decade (outside of down blips in recessions), as capital desperately chases returns. The EU has typically been closer to $15 billion per year, with a few higher years more recently. You can't compete at those levels. Countries like Finland, Poland, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, Austria, etc. are regularly seeing only $100-$300 million per year in VC. Spain is a major economy and they struggle to consistently attract $750m-$1b per year. Europe needs to pump up its VC figures considerably; more start-ups, more funding, pay engineers higher wages to retain & attract more talent (SV has been pillaging Europe for talent for decades). The VC funding per capita in the US - 330m people - is around $250 give or take. For Italy it's about $3. That's obscene, Italy has a $2 trillion economy and $34k GDP per capita. Something needs to be done to dramatically increase such figures, probably both at the local level and the EU level. Second is the difficulty in going from a small start-up with a small amount of venture capital, to try to scale out rapidly across the EU, much less the world. It's extremely difficult, versus the springboard US start-ups get to launch from, starting with far more capital, in a richer, larger, homogeneous economy. Canada would be the fifth largest economy in Europe, and US start-ups get that market for basically free (so to speak; low cultural barriers, relatively easy market access, very close geographic proximity). Then finally to make the situation worse, large US tech companies routinely eat the European start-ups before they grow up. That interrupts the potential for larger exits & spread-the-wealth effects that roll/compound over decades (helping to build sustainable funding ecosystems), like you've seen over time in California. For US companies it's a great source of talent acquisition.