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Visual programming languages are great in concept until you actually start using them. Luna-lang, for example, promises so much but severely lacks in delivery.

Visual programming languages are great in concept until you actually start using them. Luna-lang, for example, promises so much but severely lacks in delivery. This claims to convert sequence diagrams to code, but is it really production quality? If not, is this purely for prototyping? Not that that's a bad thing. Honestly, these claims are all starting to sound very repetitive.

Davidbrcz 7y ago
SCADE provides textual and graphical views that are synchronized and it's widely used in industrial critical embedded software such as airplane in airbus.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  Why (do you think) is it only used there and hasn't made its way too the main stream (yet)?
  - Davidbrcz 7y ago
    Disclaimer: Huge personal hunch, might be down-voted to hell for writing this... I think that languages like this don't go mainstream because people like/want to write code, and anything that does not help to actually write code is seen as an hindrance. The main feedback I've heard about this kind of tool is "it's clunky, it's a pain to write code with". Guess what ? It's a good thing IMO. For this to go mainstream, the whole software industry would have to go through a major revolution by shifting its focus from "writing code" to "deliver a working product". We should acknowledge that "writing code" is one tool among others, and may be not even the primary one (I personally think that specification engineering is the most important one). In the field of critical embedded software, this has happened that's why it took off. Another clue of that is for instance the Event-B/Atelier B that is intensively used in the railway/metro world (Paris line 14 was made with it, 2 bugs found in 15 years). While doing B, you get a broad specification you refine along the way into smaller problems. Writing code is actually the last step you do, when you are sure that all pieces fit together.
    - sanjiva 7y ago
      Ballerina does NOT force you to write "visually". You can write normal code and NEVER look at a picture. However, after you're done, if to see the flow of your entire program (not just one function) as a sequence diagram then you can get that done. The language syntax is "normal" syntax and has all the power o a modern language. Try it and see- feedback welcome. Disclaimer: I'm the one who started the project and leading it as the product manager now.
      - aloknnikhil 7y ago
        Then I'm struggling to understand the value proposition. If I did want to stick to implementing it visually through sequence diagrams, can I implement all the examples through a sequence diagram and have it run on Ballerina? Really curious. If yes, I'd really like to try it. There are no instructions/examples on doing that. EDIT: I found a link to using the graphical editor in the comments here. https://v1-0.ballerina.io/learn/tools-ides/vscode-plugin/graphical-editor/ https://v1-0.ballerina.io/learn/tools-ides/vscode-plugin/gra...
    - imtringued 7y ago
      Learning how to write code isn't a significant barrier. It's just pressing buttons on a keyboard. Logical thinking and problem solving are far more important. Switching to a visual language doesn't actually help you with that. Worse, if clicking virtual buttons with a mouse is slower than pressing physical buttons you will waste mental capacity that could have been used for problem solving and logical thinking.
      - Firadeoclus 7y ago
        Logical thinking and problem solving can greatly benefit from visual representations and feedback. I write code but I often wish the representation was much more visual than lines of dense monospaced text with a little bit of colour. Diagrams are often easier to parse and reason about. When trying to understand difficult code or figuring out a difficult problem before writing code I generally draw diagrams with pen and paper. These diagrams are much closer to my mental model than code, and I wish that a lot more of this translation could be automated. "Visual language" doesn't have to mean low-bandwidth interactions.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    I would consider EE, video production and game development mainstream, all domains are heavier users of visual languages.
jlg23 7y ago
The only mature visual programming language I am aware of, DRAKON, has been used quite successfully : ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON
brodo 7y ago
Node-Red is a visual programming language and it is a joy to use.

Davidbrcz 7y ago

SCADE provides textual and graphical views that are synchronized and it's widely used in industrial critical embedded software such as airplane in airbus.

solarkraft 7y ago
Why (do you think) is it only used there and hasn't made its way too the main stream (yet)?
- Davidbrcz 7y ago
  Disclaimer: Huge personal hunch, might be down-voted to hell for writing this... I think that languages like this don't go mainstream because people like/want to write code, and anything that does not help to actually write code is seen as an hindrance. The main feedback I've heard about this kind of tool is "it's clunky, it's a pain to write code with". Guess what ? It's a good thing IMO. For this to go mainstream, the whole software industry would have to go through a major revolution by shifting its focus from "writing code" to "deliver a working product". We should acknowledge that "writing code" is one tool among others, and may be not even the primary one (I personally think that specification engineering is the most important one). In the field of critical embedded software, this has happened that's why it took off. Another clue of that is for instance the Event-B/Atelier B that is intensively used in the railway/metro world (Paris line 14 was made with it, 2 bugs found in 15 years). While doing B, you get a broad specification you refine along the way into smaller problems. Writing code is actually the last step you do, when you are sure that all pieces fit together.
  - sanjiva 7y ago
    Ballerina does NOT force you to write "visually". You can write normal code and NEVER look at a picture. However, after you're done, if to see the flow of your entire program (not just one function) as a sequence diagram then you can get that done. The language syntax is "normal" syntax and has all the power o a modern language. Try it and see- feedback welcome. Disclaimer: I'm the one who started the project and leading it as the product manager now.
    - aloknnikhil 7y ago
      Then I'm struggling to understand the value proposition. If I did want to stick to implementing it visually through sequence diagrams, can I implement all the examples through a sequence diagram and have it run on Ballerina? Really curious. If yes, I'd really like to try it. There are no instructions/examples on doing that. EDIT: I found a link to using the graphical editor in the comments here. https://v1-0.ballerina.io/learn/tools-ides/vscode-plugin/graphical-editor/ https://v1-0.ballerina.io/learn/tools-ides/vscode-plugin/gra...
  - imtringued 7y ago
    Learning how to write code isn't a significant barrier. It's just pressing buttons on a keyboard. Logical thinking and problem solving are far more important. Switching to a visual language doesn't actually help you with that. Worse, if clicking virtual buttons with a mouse is slower than pressing physical buttons you will waste mental capacity that could have been used for problem solving and logical thinking.
    - Firadeoclus 7y ago
      Logical thinking and problem solving can greatly benefit from visual representations and feedback. I write code but I often wish the representation was much more visual than lines of dense monospaced text with a little bit of colour. Diagrams are often easier to parse and reason about. When trying to understand difficult code or figuring out a difficult problem before writing code I generally draw diagrams with pen and paper. These diagrams are much closer to my mental model than code, and I wish that a lot more of this translation could be automated. "Visual language" doesn't have to mean low-bandwidth interactions.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  I would consider EE, video production and game development mainstream, all domains are heavier users of visual languages.

jlg23 7y ago

The only mature visual programming language I am aware of, DRAKON, has been used quite successfully : ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON

brodo 7y ago

Node-Red is a visual programming language and it is a joy to use.