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> Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily Lisp people (like Paul Graham) say that a lot, but they also admit that there’s a pretty steep learning cu

> Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily Lisp people (like Paul Graham) say that a lot, but they also admit that there’s a pretty steep learning curve before you get to that point - at least, I’ve never heard anybody say that Lisp is both easy to use and easy learn. I actually do believe them. I used to hear the same thing about vi: it’s quick and powerful, once you get over the learning hump. I actually did take the time to get over the hump and found that I _was_ faster and more productive with it, but it took some time to get there. The time spent was worth it, but it was slow going getting there. I’ve dabbled enough in Lisp and functional programming in general on my own to believe that there’s something very powerful hiding in there… but there’s work to be done and unlike my choice of text editor which only impacts me, I have to work in a language that everybody agrees on, and so far, that’s never been Lisp.

TurboHaskal 7y ago
I don't think that's true. Sure you need quite some experience with the language to actually appreciate its strengths, but when optimising for low attention span and focusing on the kind of literature that allows people to jump quickly into solving problems (rather than those texts that start slowly and focus on laying out the foundation), provided existing experience with another language, you can start building things in no time. Lisp is just like any other language. That's why today I simply point people to the cookbook [0]. If they keep the interest, they'll eventually jump to the classics. [0] https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/ https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/
- iLemming 7y ago
  Even the famous long time Lisp aficionados like Paul Graham today recommend Clojure instead of CL. That seems to be more pragmatic choice.
  - TurboHaskal 7y ago
    I like Clojure, but whether it is a more pragmatic choice (or if it’s even a Lisp) is a bit off topic here. If someone asks me for advice on how to get started with Common Lisp I will point them them to CL resources.
closeparen 7y ago
Learning curve is a weird reason for such an important and well compensated profession to be wielding subpar tools towards subpar outcomes. “Yeah, medicine seems really powerful, but med school is hard and I’ve got patients to treat.” Seems more likely that the grass is not actually greener on the other side. If it were, we’d see small teams of the rare few who are willing to surmount the learning curve outcompeting the rest of the tech industry.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  I wonder about that, too, honestly. Taking my comparison with vi again: I’m a vi true believer, having gone from a vi skeptic… but I don’t really have hard evidence that I’m truly, actually, indisputably more productive in vi than I would be with, say, notepad++ or sublime or atom or some other editor. I say the same things that other vi true believers do, and I’ve never seen or heard of anybody who was comfortable in vi who ever said that they regretted spending time learning it or that they didn’t think the time was worthwhile - but how do I (we) know that isn’t just confirmation bias? Or worse, how do we know we’re not just deluding ourselves to try to convince ourselves that we didn’t waste time learning - or justify time spent doing something we enjoy(ed)? I’ve been learning Scala on and off for a while and it _feels_ better and more correct than Java, but maybe I just want it to be better and more correct than Java.
- Chlorus 7y ago
  "“Yeah, medicine seems really powerful, but med school is hard and I’ve got patients to treat.”" Isn't that in fact the case, and why we have nurses, RPNs & medics? "Sorry, I can't give you this flu shot - I've gotta finish med school first"
- mattnewport 7y ago
  This occurs in medicine too. One of the primary problems we're trying to help solve for our customers is that they introduce medical devices (for orthopedic surgery) which in theory have many benefits over older devices but which have a learning curve for surgeons. Surgeons often don't feel they have the time to invest in learning the new device when they already have experience with an older device and are confident in their use of it, even if they are sold on the potential benefits of the newer device once they get past the learning curve.
jimbokun 7y ago
> - at least, I’ve never heard anybody say that Lisp is both easy to use and easy learn. I will say it. Lisp has been used for introductory programming courses in the past, with much success. Beginners take to it just as well, or better, than other more popular languages. For example: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf "This book is about learning to program in Lisp. Although widely known as the principal language of artificial intelligence research—one of the most advanced areas of computer science—Lisp is an excellent language for beginners. It is increasingly the language of choice in introductory programming courses due to its friendly, interactive environment, rich data structures, and powerful software tools that even a novice can master in short order"
- mattnewport 7y ago
  "Although widely known as the principal language of artificial intelligence research—one of the most advanced areas of computer science—Lisp is an excellent language for beginners." Ironically it's been supplanted by Python in that role now.
  - aoeu512 7y ago
    I wonder if Guido had looked at Common Lisp and built his Python from a simplified form of Common Lisp/Scheme with infix syntax but with multi-line-lambdas, optional return values, CLOS, and edit-and-continue, and fast compilers from the start... We shoould root for Julia - it can drag the Python and Lisp people together. Also what ever happened to Dylan?
    - gilch 7y ago
      See [Hissp] and [Hebigo] for another attempt to drag the Python and Lisp people together. [Hissp]: https://github.com/gilch/hissp https://github.com/gilch/hissp [Hebigo]: https://github.com/gilch/hebigo https://github.com/gilch/hebigo
kamaal 7y ago
>>at least, I’ve never heard anybody say that Lisp is both easy to use and easy learn. Richard Stallman would like to disagree with you. It was Bernie Greenberg, who discovered that it was (2). He wrote a version of Emacs in Multics MacLisp, and he wrote his commands in MacLisp in a straightforward fashion. The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success — programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html Its quite a statement when secretaries back then without the internet and with just manuals. Were able to learn and program Emacs in Elisp. Speaks volumes about the current generation of programmers and ability to learn or commit to any deep expertise.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

TurboHaskal 7y ago

I don't think that's true. Sure you need quite some experience with the language to actually appreciate its strengths, but when optimising for low attention span and focusing on the kind of literature that allows people to jump quickly into solving problems (rather than those texts that start slowly and focus on laying out the foundation), provided existing experience with another language, you can start building things in no time. Lisp is just like any other language. That's why today I simply point people to the cookbook [0]. If they keep the interest, they'll eventually jump to the classics. [0] https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/ https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/

iLemming 7y ago
Even the famous long time Lisp aficionados like Paul Graham today recommend Clojure instead of CL. That seems to be more pragmatic choice.
- TurboHaskal 7y ago
  I like Clojure, but whether it is a more pragmatic choice (or if it’s even a Lisp) is a bit off topic here. If someone asks me for advice on how to get started with Common Lisp I will point them them to CL resources.

closeparen 7y ago

Learning curve is a weird reason for such an important and well compensated profession to be wielding subpar tools towards subpar outcomes. “Yeah, medicine seems really powerful, but med school is hard and I’ve got patients to treat.” Seems more likely that the grass is not actually greener on the other side. If it were, we’d see small teams of the rare few who are willing to surmount the learning curve outcompeting the rest of the tech industry.

commandlinefan 7y ago
I wonder about that, too, honestly. Taking my comparison with vi again: I’m a vi true believer, having gone from a vi skeptic… but I don’t really have hard evidence that I’m truly, actually, indisputably more productive in vi than I would be with, say, notepad++ or sublime or atom or some other editor. I say the same things that other vi true believers do, and I’ve never seen or heard of anybody who was comfortable in vi who ever said that they regretted spending time learning it or that they didn’t think the time was worthwhile - but how do I (we) know that isn’t just confirmation bias? Or worse, how do we know we’re not just deluding ourselves to try to convince ourselves that we didn’t waste time learning - or justify time spent doing something we enjoy(ed)? I’ve been learning Scala on and off for a while and it _feels_ better and more correct than Java, but maybe I just want it to be better and more correct than Java.
Chlorus 7y ago
"“Yeah, medicine seems really powerful, but med school is hard and I’ve got patients to treat.”" Isn't that in fact the case, and why we have nurses, RPNs & medics? "Sorry, I can't give you this flu shot - I've gotta finish med school first"
mattnewport 7y ago
This occurs in medicine too. One of the primary problems we're trying to help solve for our customers is that they introduce medical devices (for orthopedic surgery) which in theory have many benefits over older devices but which have a learning curve for surgeons. Surgeons often don't feel they have the time to invest in learning the new device when they already have experience with an older device and are confident in their use of it, even if they are sold on the potential benefits of the newer device once they get past the learning curve.

jimbokun 7y ago

> - at least, I’ve never heard anybody say that Lisp is both easy to use and easy learn. I will say it. Lisp has been used for introductory programming courses in the past, with much success. Beginners take to it just as well, or better, than other more popular languages. For example: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf "This book is about learning to program in Lisp. Although widely known as the principal language of artificial intelligence research—one of the most advanced areas of computer science—Lisp is an excellent language for beginners. It is increasingly the language of choice in introductory programming courses due to its friendly, interactive environment, rich data structures, and powerful software tools that even a novice can master in short order"

mattnewport 7y ago
"Although widely known as the principal language of artificial intelligence research—one of the most advanced areas of computer science—Lisp is an excellent language for beginners." Ironically it's been supplanted by Python in that role now.
- aoeu512 7y ago
  I wonder if Guido had looked at Common Lisp and built his Python from a simplified form of Common Lisp/Scheme with infix syntax but with multi-line-lambdas, optional return values, CLOS, and edit-and-continue, and fast compilers from the start... We shoould root for Julia - it can drag the Python and Lisp people together. Also what ever happened to Dylan?
  - gilch 7y ago
    See [Hissp] and [Hebigo] for another attempt to drag the Python and Lisp people together. [Hissp]: https://github.com/gilch/hissp https://github.com/gilch/hissp [Hebigo]: https://github.com/gilch/hebigo https://github.com/gilch/hebigo

kamaal 7y ago

>>at least, I’ve never heard anybody say that Lisp is both easy to use and easy learn. Richard Stallman would like to disagree with you. It was Bernie Greenberg, who discovered that it was (2). He wrote a version of Emacs in Multics MacLisp, and he wrote his commands in MacLisp in a straightforward fashion. The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success — programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html Its quite a statement when secretaries back then without the internet and with just manuals. Were able to learn and program Emacs in Elisp. Speaks volumes about the current generation of programmers and ability to learn or commit to any deep expertise.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]