19 ms·

America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

111 points by jseliger 7y ago

Thorentis 7y ago
The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere. I think if this can be changed, more people will use them. Cities like Sydney get it right, by having dedicated express lanes on many highways for buses (and taxis). When it becomes faster to catch the bus in peak hour because they can drive in lanes that bypass the gridlock, there is an incentive to leave your car at home if you know you'll be leaving work during peak hour and need to be somewhere ASAP. Interestingly, this has also allowed taxis to have an edge over Uber et. al. Just recently I was catching a ride to the airport in an Uber and forgot about how bad peak hour traffic would be. We were stuck in awful traffic for over an hour, and meanwhile, all these buses and taxis were flying past us in the transit lane. The fare of the Uber ended up costing more than the fare it would have been in a taxi due to how much longer it took. If transit lanes can be put in more places, bus lanes created at more intersections (so that buses can get ahead of traffic), and fares set at the right amount, I think that with the rising cost of fuel, insurance etc., more people will be willing to catch public transport, especially if it is more convenient to do so.
- malandrew 7y ago
  I understand privileging buses but under what pretenses should we privilege taxis over transportation network companies? If anything, only pool ridesharing companies should get the benefit of these intracity HOV lanes.
  - Thorentis 7y ago
    My comment wasn't a justification of allowing taxis to use those lanes, I was just pointing out how well they worked anecdotally. I think the transit lanes can be used by buses, taxis, chauffeured cars, etc. Mainly for politicians/important people to get the airport or city quickly I suppose. I think since taxis pay heavy license fees to the state (whereas Uber etc. cars only pay car registration like all other cars) allowing them to use the lanes has been justified by the city. But of course, these licenses aren't open to Uber or other providers so it's a difficult situation that does stifle competition.
    - fyfy18 7y ago
      One reason why only licensed taxis can use those lanes is to prevent regular people using them. If you just needed to sign up to be an Uber driver, and you could use the HOV lane, everyone would do it. Even if you had to do that and pay a fee of $5000/year, there would be plenty of people who could justify that over the time saved in traffic (but probably not Uber drivers).
  - shermozle 7y ago
    Can't say I agree with it but the thinking goes that taxis are an alternative to owning/using your car so are privileged in various ways like this, dedicated short-term parking in ranks etc. It's not _only_ rich people who use taxis, so the thinking goes. (Rich people are also banned from sleeping under the bridges, just like poor people...) When Uber et al took all the value out of the expensive taxi number plate one of the few ways the government had to compensate their owners is that advantage they still have, so they haven't leveled the field there. That conversation might open up the entire concept to evaluation though.
  - wahern 7y ago
    Particularly for airports, prices for licensed taxies are usually regulated to be within a very narrow, predictable range. Opening up the Uber app, the estimated price for an UberX to SFO from my current location is $47.30, which is almost exactly what a taxi would be--$45-50 in this part of the city. Licensed taxis are, at least to some extent, a deliberately planned component of the public transportation infrastructure. And as I about to post this, the price for UberX changed to $49.80. Thanks for the illustration, Uber.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  This - enforce carpool lanes and give buses priority access. Immediate positive. Secondly and more importantly for me (and I know unpopular) - kick off the drunk / other rule-breakers and anyone who threatens people even if its just a result of mental illness. No one wants to start their day next to someone yelling - "I'll f* you up... etc" on a crowded bus. At least where I am the bus drivers don't do anything from small - blasting music -> to larger - nonstop threats of violence. I have only small anecdotes but other places seem to empower the drivers etc more. And the jitney cabs in the Caribbean would flat out leave people on the side of the road if they were sloppy drunk.
  - oakesm9 7y ago
    Some of this is down to the driver being the only staff member on the bus. They should be fully focused on driving as a bus hitting anything is bad news. Stopping to kick people off just delays everyone on the bus getting where they need to go. If there was a conductor on the bus then they could deal with inappropriate behaviour, but no bus company wants to pay two members of staff when they can get away with one.
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      Would be interesting to see if we can create self driving buses and have the driver change roles to become payment management and enforcing a safe area in the bus.
      - mycall 7y ago
        If no one is driving, it makes citizens do more of the work.. in a crowded bus, a group of normal people could throw the asshole off. Eventually, the assholes won't ride the bus.
        erik_seaberg 7y ago
        In the current climate, an untrained unlicensed bouncer is just begging to get sued. They work under strict rules that most people don't know. How many commuters are even armed? A shocking number of offices have begun to forbid it.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere." In my experience they take within a few minutes of walking somewhere, and perhaps three times as long as bicycling, never mind driving. Perhaps someone will say that this indicates my local bus system is terrible, but I don't see what could be improved about it. If they want to serve the people who actually ride the bus, they have to go on routes with riders, and stop at all the places people want to get on and off. But I've tried riding the bus on trips ranging from <1 mi, to 3.5 miles, to 6-10 miles, and there's just no point, except in the case where I need to go get my car and I have no alternative (or if I didn't own a car). For a longer trip, it means sacrificing an entire evening for what would be a 10-15 minute trip going directly. For the longest trips (>6 miles) which coincide with a single route, the bus can be substantially faster than walking, but it's still way too long to be a viable commute. And shorter trips are very comparable to walking. People say or imply that something could be different that would make a typical bus system in a US city more effective for people who have alternatives, but what? The idea of the bus being "more convenient" with a few tweaks seems wildly implausible to me based on my experience.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    Buses are most viable when combined with a well developed rail system. Then it's worthwhile as an alternative to dealing with parking at the train stations and because you won't have your car on the other end of that rail journey.
    - m3jia 7y ago
      Buses i most US cities just aren't viable. A lot of cities really don't work well if you don't own a car at all, and if you own one a bus will never win driving and parking in the big lot. In NYC, buses work, and people take them because they have to. They could be better but the alternative is hundreds of dollars in parking if you think about owning a car.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        You have to at some point accept that the vast majority of people, while they don't live in nowheresville, Montana, also don't live in the very largest cities. A million or two people within say 10-15 miles is the sort of place a large portion of the country lives, and changing that on a national scale seems very far fetched to me. 85% of the country by population is outside the metro areas of NYC, LA, Chicago, and Dallas. Regarding them as a small group of people many miles away from civilization is not reasonable, but it's also not reasonable to assume the resources exist for infrastructure like the largest cities.
- drdeadringer 7y ago
  > The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere. I've found the same with walking in some cases.
- bigger_cheese 7y ago
  Do buses run to Sydney airport? I usually take the train to the airport and I hate it. For whatever reason the airport line is privatized and they absolutely gouge you on ticket price. It costs me $22 to get train to the airport (it's around $17 from central station to airport). I can get a flight to Melbourne for ~$70 it shouldn't cost 1/3 of my plane ticket. If there are two people traveling in a group taxi is cheaper and depending on time of day faster.
  - jakecopp 7y ago
    Yep the 400 bus does! It goes via Mascot Station and then via UNSW and Randwick to Bondi Junction. A good hack is getting off the train at Mascot, walking across the road and catching the 400 one stop. They come every few minutes and you save the airport train station fee!
- xivzgrev 7y ago
  I agree. The other problem is density which turns into chicken or egg problem. People will ride when it's faster than car. To be faster than car to most people, you need a dense network of bus routes that map to a lot of A->B routes (instead of hub and spoke model where almost every ride goes downtown, you transfer, and go back out to where you need to go). More buses = more money. To justify money you need ridership. And around we go.
- btashton 7y ago
  I'm a firm believer that we need to get the private busses out of the express lanes. In Seattle it is really bad, all of the Microsoft and Amazon busses crossing east west have destroyed demand for quality public transportation across that corridor. Every day going to work I drive the same route as a Microsoft bus, the current alternative is three busses for 90min best case. This is also the only HOV Lane in the state that is 3+, further limiting carpooling incentives, which I have a hard time not believing stems from lobbying from the companies that run these busses.
  - Zanni 7y ago
    Why? Private buses are solving the same problem as public buses--taking cars off the road and reducing traffic. You could make them unpalatable, but I'm guessing most Microsoft and Amazon employees will revert to cars before public buses, which makes traffic worse for everyone, including you.
    - btashton 7y ago
      And incur the extra 15-20min of drive time each way? I doubt that.
  - iso1337 7y ago
    You do realize that if you get rid of those busses then the traffic will be even worse right? Even if all of those people end up carpooling, they'll occupy way more space in the HOV lane. The real solution should be to expand the number of HOV lanes.
    - btashton 7y ago
      My point is they have effectively become restricted public transportation where there was demand for a viable real public transportation. This has made it so the average person no longer has an option. These routes are not viable for both a public and private option. Everyone coming from the West side to work at my office both drives and is a short walk from a Microsoft bus pickup.
    - 7y ago
- non-entity 7y ago
  I'm not even worried about longer commutes as much as reliability. Most cities in the US have bus lines, but I've heard absolute horror stories about buses being / early late and people having to wait an hour before another one comes.
- zulln 7y ago
  > Interestingly, this has also allowed taxis to have an edge over Uber et. al. Why is this wanted? We have bus/taxi lanes here as well, but Uber is allowed to go there as well (they require the same taxi license as anyone else).
algaeontoast 7y ago
In Boston because of traffic, even with dedicated bus lanes, bikes and/or electric scooters were always faster than public transit. Only downside was in the winter when bike lanes and sidewalks were covered in snow / ice.
- nine_k 7y ago
  Another downside of a bike is that you arrive covered by sweat if you try to ride faster than public transit in the summer. An electric bike solves this, of course.
  - algaeontoast 7y ago
    Agreed, my office had a shower and it was still a hassle. 1) there was only one shower per bathroom, which meant if anyone else decided to ride their bike to work or go for a jog there'd be a 30min queue for the shower 2) even if there wasn't any wait - it still takes 20min minimum to shower and change before work 3) it's dangerous AF to ride a bike in adverse conditions like snow or cold rain around cars (never-mind frost-bite / injuries involved with slipping on ice)
smileysteve 7y ago
The school bus system is an interesting microcosm of transportation to look at; Over the last 30 years, bus use has dropped while [privileged] parents drive their children to school, wait in a carpool lane; Interesting concepts - Time Wasted in the pickup lane (and often the drop off lane) - Traffic in the pickup and drop-off lanes - High School parking lot size - Use during inclement weather In Snowpocalypse in Atlanta, a large portion of the mess was contributed to by the 3 trips; Parent to Home, Parent to School, Parent and Child to home; Instead of offering for parents to pickup their children from school, much of the traffic could have been resolved with the existing bus system; In the end; if chains were needed, it's easier to fit 50 busses with chains in a bus yard than 1000+ cars.
- CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
  Sometimes chains aren’t even needed. While I was an undergrad at The Ohio State University, I was a part-time bus driver for the campus bus system (which used 35- and 40-foot city-type buses). During my time there, we had one snow day, and I was on-shift that day. That was when I learned that the bus had traction control. Once I learned that, I was able to adjust my driving such that climbing the hill to the Freshman remote parking lot was no problem.
Ayesh 7y ago
The author completely forgets there is a whole world outside the US, where public transportation is efficient, preferred, and often makes good profts too. - Singapore has a very good bus+ metro system and people actually prefer it. Cars are heavily taxed which contributed to it, but their well planning has helped too. Airport served by metro, so is the Malaysia border, and every neighborhood has at least two nearby metro lines and a plethora of bus lines. - Kuala Lumpur has quite heavy traffic, but they have two free public bus lines going around the important places in the city. They are free of charge, every 15-30 minutes, have their routes well marked, and even has free WiFi. - Jakarta: they have the world's biggest bus rapid transit system. Dedicated lanes, platforms, cashless payments, and the massive coverage help this massive city to have slightly less traffic jams. Jakarta also has motorbike taxis (ojek, Gojek/Uber apps) that serve the last miles well. They are quite cheap (about 10 US cents per km) and I doubt they will be economical once the VC money is burnt, but they are better than a sedan with a driver and a passenger. - Berlin/Munich: Good tram system with commuter passes, day passes, etc. It's common to give the day passes to someone at the ticket machines when we are done for the day. They help keep the costs low in otherwise expensive cities in Munich.
- jonstewart 7y ago
  I think it’s clear the author is only talking about bus transit in the US.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  The motorbike taxis existed way before Uber, and they will probably outlast whatever subsidies they are getting. The only way to shut them down is by law (which is how southern Chinese cities are getting rid of them ATM). Tuktuks are also a great last mile alternative. Maybe a bit safer and more comfortable than riding behind someone on a motorbike.
- triodan 7y ago
  As a Jakarta resident I can confirm that the bus transit system (TransJakarta) have massively helped mobility amongst the populace. With a flat fare of 2 cents you can get from one end of the city to the other; it's an amazing system.
bengerbil 7y ago
Fortunately in Canada, we view busses as transport for the plebes. So when we finally brought LRT service up (a bit late) and the bus trip from home to work went from 45 minutes to an hour, my 15 minute driv was unaffected.
denkmoon 7y ago
I will use the bus the moment I can have the same level of peace and quiet I get in my car. My commute is not long, but it gives me time to think about things. My experience with public transport is pure unrelenting noise.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Have you tried noise canceling headphones. I have a pair of bose QC headphones that can turn a packed hearing damage level pub down to a fairly relaxing sound level. On a bus with some music playing I can't hear any sound at all from outside.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- landcoctos 7y ago
  >I will use the bus the moment I can have the same level of peace and quiet I get in my car. My commute is not long, but it gives me time to think about things I had the exact opposite experience when I took public transit to work. I had a nice quiet and relaxing trip onboard commuter rail for a 28 minute trip to the City Center. I never found any peace and quiet or ability to think while driving in rush hour traffic.
mceachen 7y ago
In the bay area, there was an express bus line from my town straight into downtown San Francisco. I could work through my whole commute (as I had a seat and a laptop), not worry about traffic or deal with road rage, and was filled with a wide variety of people. If each community added their own similar route, I wouldn't be surprised if rush hour traffic was noticably impacted.
johnmarcus 7y ago
you can't just tell people to "love the bus", the bus has to actually be loveable. No one is avoiding the bus because 'climate change is cool man, fuck the bus'. People don't ride the bus because it's jam packed shoulder to shoulder, can smell like puke and piss, subsidezed homeless travel while the rest of us need to pay a dumb fare, requires exact change in world ruled by tap-to-pay devices. And then yeah, traffic and time, but that's not really the core detraction. Oh, yeah, and Uber pool and Lyft rides are nearly as cost effective, when you consider time-to-income it's often more cost effective. Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. As another commenter said, there are countries where busses don't suck, and ergo busses are used.
- rayiner 7y ago
  We have a commuter bus from Annapolis to DC. Super nice, air conditioned, wifi, etc. No homeless people. Socially enforced library silence atmosphere. It’s pretty sick.
- askafriend 7y ago
  Nailed it. I'd love to use the bus but it's just not a realistic option given the state of bus systems in most US cities.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  > People don't ride the bus because it's jam packed... Yogi Berra? Is that you?
- momokoko 7y ago
  If you are not aware, this type of comment is fairly common on HN when discussing public transit. > Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. Please do not take personal offense to this, but this type of comment leads me to believe that you have very derogatory views of people that have chosen or have ended up in different life paths. Have you ever considered that it is possible that you live a very isolated and segregated life and that something like the bus is unsettling to you because it forces you to associate with the general population as opposed to your typical, highly controlled, environment?
mung 7y ago
Busses have to be one of the worst modern mass-transit options. Auckland NZ has bus lanes, so that is fine. But they are diesel. So they are noisy and polluting. Get two or three busses in a row and you cannot see past them. They block entire roads, and really, the have a low head count for the amount of space they take up. I'm not even speaking as a driver, I'm speaking as a pedestrian. Busses really suck.
- et-al 7y ago
  It seems like your compliant should be directed more specifically towards diesel vehicles than actual busses. There are low-emission busses out there.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Also, good diesels are fine. We have lots of terrible diesel buses here in Hamilton, ON, but I've seen diesel buses which don't spew ghastly acrid smoke everywhere.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    Here in Norway the trend is toward battery electric buses via diesel hybrids and gas (not gasoline). But even the diesels are quieter than the buses I have seen in the US and certainly a lot cleaner. Buses in both the US seem stuck in some alternate reality where clean fuel and quiet motors are somehow impossible. I realize that this might well be an unwarranted generalization from my experience in the Raleigh-Durham Triangle, perhaps it's better elsewhere.
- nine_k 7y ago
  A large bus on a road takes space of 3-4 cars. With a typical car carrying 1-2 people, the hugest bus uses space more efficiently if it carries more than 8 people; a smaller bus, 1-3 people. Where I live (admittedly a large and reasonably dense city), bus occupancy is an order of magnitude higher at peak, hours. This is instant efficiency; this does not take into account the fact a bus is not point-to-point, and carries more passengers than its average occupancy, because passengers get on and off along the way.
microcolonel 7y ago
My city's buses often take longer than walking, and I have to stand on them because the suspension is not sufficient on our roads, it's probably not even safe to sit sometimes. The HVAC and rattling/flapping noises are extremely loud. I ride the bus here when absolutely necessary, I usuallly walk the 3km to/from the regional train station to avoid it. Often it's not even an option, since all of the routes close down at about 1:30, and at that point come every couple hours.
nradov 7y ago
The HN demographic skews young and male, so I think many of us fail to appreciate that older people and women often feel unsafe — or at least uncomfortable — on public transit. Increased law enforcement presence and enforcement of decent behavior would do a lot to make people love the bus.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  Honestly I feel unsafe much of the time on BART these days. Unfortunately BART PD presence is part of the problem.
- Mordisquitos 7y ago
  >I think many of us fail to appreciate that older people and women often feel unsafe — or at least uncomfortable — on public transit. Increased law enforcement presence and enforcement of decent behavior would do a lot to make people love the bus. That may be true for the US, but interestingly in Spain (and I daresay in most of Europe) the opposite is true: the prototypical users of public buses are older people, and particularly older women. They generally don't use or don't need a car, are not in enough of a hurry to use the Metro, and want to avoid the latter's long stairways and escalators. Maybe the solution for women and older people in the US to start using the bus more needs to start with stricter law enforcement and presence, but I can't say it is a factor in Spain. Law enforcement and security guards are very rarely seen in buses, though their overall heavy usage and the fact that most of the city has a high density of foot traffic anyway is probably enough to discourage feelings of unsafety.
  - iamnotacrook 7y ago
    "the opposite is true: the prototypical users of public buses are older people, and particularly older women. " That's not the opposite. The statement isn't that old/women don't use public transport; it's that they feel unsafe using it and would use any alternative were it affordable/possible.
- rhacker 7y ago
  When I was young, in the US, there were equal numbers of men and women on the bus. As I got older, I stopped taking the bus. But on the random occasion that I have to, it's still just filled with... young men and young women in equal ratios. I think it's just an age thing, not a gender thing, that people stop taking the bus. That being said, it's not just because I have a car that I don't ride anymore - and safety isn't the reason. I get overwhelmed with either Marijuana or Perfume both of which are awful smells. Then there's the people that play music out loud for everyone - or in some cases a game on the phone at full volume instead of through buds. Lastly, and this doesn't need explaining, but the pee-seats. It's enough to make me want to always own a car or have a personal transportation option. If you can outlaw perfumes/marijuana/noise and figure out the pee-seat problem I'd be down to use it more.
torgian 7y ago
Reading all the comments here makes me happy about living in East Asia (Taiwan and Japan specifically).

111 points by jseliger 7y ago

The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere. I think if this can be changed, more people will use them. Cities like Sydney get it right, by having dedicated express lanes on many highways for buses (and taxis). When it becomes faster to catch the bus in peak hour because they can drive in lanes that bypass the gridlock, there is an incentive to leave your car at home if you know you'll be leaving work during peak hour and need to be somewhere ASAP. Interestingly, this has also allowed taxis to have an edge over Uber et. al. Just recently I was catching a ride to the airport in an Uber and forgot about how bad peak hour traffic would be. We were stuck in awful traffic for over an hour, and meanwhile, all these buses and taxis were flying past us in the transit lane. The fare of the Uber ended up costing more than the fare it would have been in a taxi due to how much longer it took. If transit lanes can be put in more places, bus lanes created at more intersections (so that buses can get ahead of traffic), and fares set at the right amount, I think that with the rising cost of fuel, insurance etc., more people will be willing to catch public transport, especially if it is more convenient to do so.

malandrew 7y ago
I understand privileging buses but under what pretenses should we privilege taxis over transportation network companies? If anything, only pool ridesharing companies should get the benefit of these intracity HOV lanes.
- Thorentis 7y ago
  My comment wasn't a justification of allowing taxis to use those lanes, I was just pointing out how well they worked anecdotally. I think the transit lanes can be used by buses, taxis, chauffeured cars, etc. Mainly for politicians/important people to get the airport or city quickly I suppose. I think since taxis pay heavy license fees to the state (whereas Uber etc. cars only pay car registration like all other cars) allowing them to use the lanes has been justified by the city. But of course, these licenses aren't open to Uber or other providers so it's a difficult situation that does stifle competition.
  - fyfy18 7y ago
    One reason why only licensed taxis can use those lanes is to prevent regular people using them. If you just needed to sign up to be an Uber driver, and you could use the HOV lane, everyone would do it. Even if you had to do that and pay a fee of $5000/year, there would be plenty of people who could justify that over the time saved in traffic (but probably not Uber drivers).
- shermozle 7y ago
  Can't say I agree with it but the thinking goes that taxis are an alternative to owning/using your car so are privileged in various ways like this, dedicated short-term parking in ranks etc. It's not _only_ rich people who use taxis, so the thinking goes. (Rich people are also banned from sleeping under the bridges, just like poor people...) When Uber et al took all the value out of the expensive taxi number plate one of the few ways the government had to compensate their owners is that advantage they still have, so they haven't leveled the field there. That conversation might open up the entire concept to evaluation though.
- wahern 7y ago
  Particularly for airports, prices for licensed taxies are usually regulated to be within a very narrow, predictable range. Opening up the Uber app, the estimated price for an UberX to SFO from my current location is $47.30, which is almost exactly what a taxi would be--$45-50 in this part of the city. Licensed taxis are, at least to some extent, a deliberately planned component of the public transportation infrastructure. And as I about to post this, the price for UberX changed to $49.80. Thanks for the illustration, Uber.
privateSFacct 7y ago
This - enforce carpool lanes and give buses priority access. Immediate positive. Secondly and more importantly for me (and I know unpopular) - kick off the drunk / other rule-breakers and anyone who threatens people even if its just a result of mental illness. No one wants to start their day next to someone yelling - "I'll f* you up... etc" on a crowded bus. At least where I am the bus drivers don't do anything from small - blasting music -> to larger - nonstop threats of violence. I have only small anecdotes but other places seem to empower the drivers etc more. And the jitney cabs in the Caribbean would flat out leave people on the side of the road if they were sloppy drunk.
- oakesm9 7y ago
  Some of this is down to the driver being the only staff member on the bus. They should be fully focused on driving as a bus hitting anything is bad news. Stopping to kick people off just delays everyone on the bus getting where they need to go. If there was a conductor on the bus then they could deal with inappropriate behaviour, but no bus company wants to pay two members of staff when they can get away with one.
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Would be interesting to see if we can create self driving buses and have the driver change roles to become payment management and enforcing a safe area in the bus.
    - mycall 7y ago
      If no one is driving, it makes citizens do more of the work.. in a crowded bus, a group of normal people could throw the asshole off. Eventually, the assholes won't ride the bus.
      - erik_seaberg 7y ago
        In the current climate, an untrained unlicensed bouncer is just begging to get sued. They work under strict rules that most people don't know. How many commuters are even armed? A shocking number of offices have begun to forbid it.
perl4ever 7y ago
"The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere." In my experience they take within a few minutes of walking somewhere, and perhaps three times as long as bicycling, never mind driving. Perhaps someone will say that this indicates my local bus system is terrible, but I don't see what could be improved about it. If they want to serve the people who actually ride the bus, they have to go on routes with riders, and stop at all the places people want to get on and off. But I've tried riding the bus on trips ranging from <1 mi, to 3.5 miles, to 6-10 miles, and there's just no point, except in the case where I need to go get my car and I have no alternative (or if I didn't own a car). For a longer trip, it means sacrificing an entire evening for what would be a 10-15 minute trip going directly. For the longest trips (>6 miles) which coincide with a single route, the bus can be substantially faster than walking, but it's still way too long to be a viable commute. And shorter trips are very comparable to walking. People say or imply that something could be different that would make a typical bus system in a US city more effective for people who have alternatives, but what? The idea of the bus being "more convenient" with a few tweaks seems wildly implausible to me based on my experience.
- vidarh 7y ago
  Buses are most viable when combined with a well developed rail system. Then it's worthwhile as an alternative to dealing with parking at the train stations and because you won't have your car on the other end of that rail journey.
  - m3jia 7y ago
    Buses i most US cities just aren't viable. A lot of cities really don't work well if you don't own a car at all, and if you own one a bus will never win driving and parking in the big lot. In NYC, buses work, and people take them because they have to. They could be better but the alternative is hundreds of dollars in parking if you think about owning a car.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      You have to at some point accept that the vast majority of people, while they don't live in nowheresville, Montana, also don't live in the very largest cities. A million or two people within say 10-15 miles is the sort of place a large portion of the country lives, and changing that on a national scale seems very far fetched to me. 85% of the country by population is outside the metro areas of NYC, LA, Chicago, and Dallas. Regarding them as a small group of people many miles away from civilization is not reasonable, but it's also not reasonable to assume the resources exist for infrastructure like the largest cities.
drdeadringer 7y ago
> The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere. I've found the same with walking in some cases.
bigger_cheese 7y ago
Do buses run to Sydney airport? I usually take the train to the airport and I hate it. For whatever reason the airport line is privatized and they absolutely gouge you on ticket price. It costs me $22 to get train to the airport (it's around $17 from central station to airport). I can get a flight to Melbourne for ~$70 it shouldn't cost 1/3 of my plane ticket. If there are two people traveling in a group taxi is cheaper and depending on time of day faster.
- jakecopp 7y ago
  Yep the 400 bus does! It goes via Mascot Station and then via UNSW and Randwick to Bondi Junction. A good hack is getting off the train at Mascot, walking across the road and catching the 400 one stop. They come every few minutes and you save the airport train station fee!
xivzgrev 7y ago
I agree. The other problem is density which turns into chicken or egg problem. People will ride when it's faster than car. To be faster than car to most people, you need a dense network of bus routes that map to a lot of A->B routes (instead of hub and spoke model where almost every ride goes downtown, you transfer, and go back out to where you need to go). More buses = more money. To justify money you need ridership. And around we go.
btashton 7y ago
I'm a firm believer that we need to get the private busses out of the express lanes. In Seattle it is really bad, all of the Microsoft and Amazon busses crossing east west have destroyed demand for quality public transportation across that corridor. Every day going to work I drive the same route as a Microsoft bus, the current alternative is three busses for 90min best case. This is also the only HOV Lane in the state that is 3+, further limiting carpooling incentives, which I have a hard time not believing stems from lobbying from the companies that run these busses.
- Zanni 7y ago
  Why? Private buses are solving the same problem as public buses--taking cars off the road and reducing traffic. You could make them unpalatable, but I'm guessing most Microsoft and Amazon employees will revert to cars before public buses, which makes traffic worse for everyone, including you.
  - btashton 7y ago
    And incur the extra 15-20min of drive time each way? I doubt that.
- iso1337 7y ago
  You do realize that if you get rid of those busses then the traffic will be even worse right? Even if all of those people end up carpooling, they'll occupy way more space in the HOV lane. The real solution should be to expand the number of HOV lanes.
  - btashton 7y ago
    My point is they have effectively become restricted public transportation where there was demand for a viable real public transportation. This has made it so the average person no longer has an option. These routes are not viable for both a public and private option. Everyone coming from the West side to work at my office both drives and is a short walk from a Microsoft bus pickup.
  - 7y ago
non-entity 7y ago
I'm not even worried about longer commutes as much as reliability. Most cities in the US have bus lines, but I've heard absolute horror stories about buses being / early late and people having to wait an hour before another one comes.
zulln 7y ago
> Interestingly, this has also allowed taxis to have an edge over Uber et. al. Why is this wanted? We have bus/taxi lanes here as well, but Uber is allowed to go there as well (they require the same taxi license as anyone else).

algaeontoast 7y ago

In Boston because of traffic, even with dedicated bus lanes, bikes and/or electric scooters were always faster than public transit. Only downside was in the winter when bike lanes and sidewalks were covered in snow / ice.

nine_k 7y ago
Another downside of a bike is that you arrive covered by sweat if you try to ride faster than public transit in the summer. An electric bike solves this, of course.
- algaeontoast 7y ago
  Agreed, my office had a shower and it was still a hassle. 1) there was only one shower per bathroom, which meant if anyone else decided to ride their bike to work or go for a jog there'd be a 30min queue for the shower 2) even if there wasn't any wait - it still takes 20min minimum to shower and change before work 3) it's dangerous AF to ride a bike in adverse conditions like snow or cold rain around cars (never-mind frost-bite / injuries involved with slipping on ice)

smileysteve 7y ago

The school bus system is an interesting microcosm of transportation to look at; Over the last 30 years, bus use has dropped while [privileged] parents drive their children to school, wait in a carpool lane; Interesting concepts - Time Wasted in the pickup lane (and often the drop off lane) - Traffic in the pickup and drop-off lanes - High School parking lot size - Use during inclement weather In Snowpocalypse in Atlanta, a large portion of the mess was contributed to by the 3 trips; Parent to Home, Parent to School, Parent and Child to home; Instead of offering for parents to pickup their children from school, much of the traffic could have been resolved with the existing bus system; In the end; if chains were needed, it's easier to fit 50 busses with chains in a bus yard than 1000+ cars.

CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
Sometimes chains aren’t even needed. While I was an undergrad at The Ohio State University, I was a part-time bus driver for the campus bus system (which used 35- and 40-foot city-type buses). During my time there, we had one snow day, and I was on-shift that day. That was when I learned that the bus had traction control. Once I learned that, I was able to adjust my driving such that climbing the hill to the Freshman remote parking lot was no problem.

Ayesh 7y ago

The author completely forgets there is a whole world outside the US, where public transportation is efficient, preferred, and often makes good profts too. - Singapore has a very good bus+ metro system and people actually prefer it. Cars are heavily taxed which contributed to it, but their well planning has helped too. Airport served by metro, so is the Malaysia border, and every neighborhood has at least two nearby metro lines and a plethora of bus lines. - Kuala Lumpur has quite heavy traffic, but they have two free public bus lines going around the important places in the city. They are free of charge, every 15-30 minutes, have their routes well marked, and even has free WiFi. - Jakarta: they have the world's biggest bus rapid transit system. Dedicated lanes, platforms, cashless payments, and the massive coverage help this massive city to have slightly less traffic jams. Jakarta also has motorbike taxis (ojek, Gojek/Uber apps) that serve the last miles well. They are quite cheap (about 10 US cents per km) and I doubt they will be economical once the VC money is burnt, but they are better than a sedan with a driver and a passenger. - Berlin/Munich: Good tram system with commuter passes, day passes, etc. It's common to give the day passes to someone at the ticket machines when we are done for the day. They help keep the costs low in otherwise expensive cities in Munich.

jonstewart 7y ago
I think it’s clear the author is only talking about bus transit in the US.
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
The motorbike taxis existed way before Uber, and they will probably outlast whatever subsidies they are getting. The only way to shut them down is by law (which is how southern Chinese cities are getting rid of them ATM). Tuktuks are also a great last mile alternative. Maybe a bit safer and more comfortable than riding behind someone on a motorbike.
triodan 7y ago
As a Jakarta resident I can confirm that the bus transit system (TransJakarta) have massively helped mobility amongst the populace. With a flat fare of 2 cents you can get from one end of the city to the other; it's an amazing system.

bengerbil 7y ago

Fortunately in Canada, we view busses as transport for the plebes. So when we finally brought LRT service up (a bit late) and the bus trip from home to work went from 45 minutes to an hour, my 15 minute driv was unaffected.

denkmoon 7y ago

I will use the bus the moment I can have the same level of peace and quiet I get in my car. My commute is not long, but it gives me time to think about things. My experience with public transport is pure unrelenting noise.

baroffoos 7y ago
Have you tried noise canceling headphones. I have a pair of bose QC headphones that can turn a packed hearing damage level pub down to a fairly relaxing sound level. On a bus with some music playing I can't hear any sound at all from outside.
deleted 7y ago
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landcoctos 7y ago
>I will use the bus the moment I can have the same level of peace and quiet I get in my car. My commute is not long, but it gives me time to think about things I had the exact opposite experience when I took public transit to work. I had a nice quiet and relaxing trip onboard commuter rail for a 28 minute trip to the City Center. I never found any peace and quiet or ability to think while driving in rush hour traffic.

mceachen 7y ago

In the bay area, there was an express bus line from my town straight into downtown San Francisco. I could work through my whole commute (as I had a seat and a laptop), not worry about traffic or deal with road rage, and was filled with a wide variety of people. If each community added their own similar route, I wouldn't be surprised if rush hour traffic was noticably impacted.

johnmarcus 7y ago

you can't just tell people to "love the bus", the bus has to actually be loveable. No one is avoiding the bus because 'climate change is cool man, fuck the bus'. People don't ride the bus because it's jam packed shoulder to shoulder, can smell like puke and piss, subsidezed homeless travel while the rest of us need to pay a dumb fare, requires exact change in world ruled by tap-to-pay devices. And then yeah, traffic and time, but that's not really the core detraction. Oh, yeah, and Uber pool and Lyft rides are nearly as cost effective, when you consider time-to-income it's often more cost effective. Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. As another commenter said, there are countries where busses don't suck, and ergo busses are used.

rayiner 7y ago
We have a commuter bus from Annapolis to DC. Super nice, air conditioned, wifi, etc. No homeless people. Socially enforced library silence atmosphere. It’s pretty sick.
askafriend 7y ago
Nailed it. I'd love to use the bus but it's just not a realistic option given the state of bus systems in most US cities.
the_gastropod 7y ago
> People don't ride the bus because it's jam packed... Yogi Berra? Is that you?
momokoko 7y ago
If you are not aware, this type of comment is fairly common on HN when discussing public transit. > Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. Please do not take personal offense to this, but this type of comment leads me to believe that you have very derogatory views of people that have chosen or have ended up in different life paths. Have you ever considered that it is possible that you live a very isolated and segregated life and that something like the bus is unsettling to you because it forces you to associate with the general population as opposed to your typical, highly controlled, environment?

mung 7y ago

Busses have to be one of the worst modern mass-transit options. Auckland NZ has bus lanes, so that is fine. But they are diesel. So they are noisy and polluting. Get two or three busses in a row and you cannot see past them. They block entire roads, and really, the have a low head count for the amount of space they take up. I'm not even speaking as a driver, I'm speaking as a pedestrian. Busses really suck.

et-al 7y ago
It seems like your compliant should be directed more specifically towards diesel vehicles than actual busses. There are low-emission busses out there.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Also, good diesels are fine. We have lots of terrible diesel buses here in Hamilton, ON, but I've seen diesel buses which don't spew ghastly acrid smoke everywhere.
- kwhitefoot 7y ago
  Here in Norway the trend is toward battery electric buses via diesel hybrids and gas (not gasoline). But even the diesels are quieter than the buses I have seen in the US and certainly a lot cleaner. Buses in both the US seem stuck in some alternate reality where clean fuel and quiet motors are somehow impossible. I realize that this might well be an unwarranted generalization from my experience in the Raleigh-Durham Triangle, perhaps it's better elsewhere.
nine_k 7y ago
A large bus on a road takes space of 3-4 cars. With a typical car carrying 1-2 people, the hugest bus uses space more efficiently if it carries more than 8 people; a smaller bus, 1-3 people. Where I live (admittedly a large and reasonably dense city), bus occupancy is an order of magnitude higher at peak, hours. This is instant efficiency; this does not take into account the fact a bus is not point-to-point, and carries more passengers than its average occupancy, because passengers get on and off along the way.

microcolonel 7y ago

My city's buses often take longer than walking, and I have to stand on them because the suspension is not sufficient on our roads, it's probably not even safe to sit sometimes. The HVAC and rattling/flapping noises are extremely loud. I ride the bus here when absolutely necessary, I usuallly walk the 3km to/from the regional train station to avoid it. Often it's not even an option, since all of the routes close down at about 1:30, and at that point come every couple hours.

nradov 7y ago

The HN demographic skews young and male, so I think many of us fail to appreciate that older people and women often feel unsafe — or at least uncomfortable — on public transit. Increased law enforcement presence and enforcement of decent behavior would do a lot to make people love the bus.

inferiorhuman 7y ago
Honestly I feel unsafe much of the time on BART these days. Unfortunately BART PD presence is part of the problem.
Mordisquitos 7y ago
>I think many of us fail to appreciate that older people and women often feel unsafe — or at least uncomfortable — on public transit. Increased law enforcement presence and enforcement of decent behavior would do a lot to make people love the bus. That may be true for the US, but interestingly in Spain (and I daresay in most of Europe) the opposite is true: the prototypical users of public buses are older people, and particularly older women. They generally don't use or don't need a car, are not in enough of a hurry to use the Metro, and want to avoid the latter's long stairways and escalators. Maybe the solution for women and older people in the US to start using the bus more needs to start with stricter law enforcement and presence, but I can't say it is a factor in Spain. Law enforcement and security guards are very rarely seen in buses, though their overall heavy usage and the fact that most of the city has a high density of foot traffic anyway is probably enough to discourage feelings of unsafety.
- iamnotacrook 7y ago
  "the opposite is true: the prototypical users of public buses are older people, and particularly older women. " That's not the opposite. The statement isn't that old/women don't use public transport; it's that they feel unsafe using it and would use any alternative were it affordable/possible.
rhacker 7y ago
When I was young, in the US, there were equal numbers of men and women on the bus. As I got older, I stopped taking the bus. But on the random occasion that I have to, it's still just filled with... young men and young women in equal ratios. I think it's just an age thing, not a gender thing, that people stop taking the bus. That being said, it's not just because I have a car that I don't ride anymore - and safety isn't the reason. I get overwhelmed with either Marijuana or Perfume both of which are awful smells. Then there's the people that play music out loud for everyone - or in some cases a game on the phone at full volume instead of through buds. Lastly, and this doesn't need explaining, but the pee-seats. It's enough to make me want to always own a car or have a personal transportation option. If you can outlaw perfumes/marijuana/noise and figure out the pee-seat problem I'd be down to use it more.

torgian 7y ago

Reading all the comments here makes me happy about living in East Asia (Taiwan and Japan specifically).