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Why No One Is Beating Tesla's Range
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- kenhwang 7y agoNo one's beating Tesla's range because no one is willing to use the NCA battery chemistry. All the other automakers stick to NMC (for very good reason). Tesla will have a ~20% range and cost advantage just by nature of using NCA over NMC.
- remind_me_again 7y agoMy quick research says that the only downside of NCA is cost. Is this correct?
- mikeash 7y agoThat doesn’t seem to explain why other cars are getting less range from batteries with similar capacity.
- baybal2 7y agoRegen, BMS, mass and aerodynamics
- kenhwang 7y agoNMC batteries needs to be much bigger/heavier to match the capacity of NCA due to NCA's better energy density. Then you have both the increased weight and increased cooling burden associated with the larger NMC battery that negatively impact range.
- mikeash 7y agoThat doesn’t add up. The I-PACE and Taycan both have similar weight to the Model X, yet are substantially less efficient. The e-tron is lighter than a Model S and has absolutely horrible efficiency.
- kenhwang 7y agoThe e-tron is similar in weight, size, and power to the Model X and pretty much gets within 10% of its efficiency comparing WLTP ratings. I think the efficiency loss can be explained by cooling (if this article is to be believed that Audi has more complicated/expensive cooling) and aerodynamics (it has a normal SUV profile vs the coupe of the Model X).
- mikeash 7y agoI found about 250 miles for the e-Tron and 315 miles for the Model X competing WLTP ratings. I imagine aerodynamics are a huge factor in this difference.
- kenhwang 7y agoFor 83.6kWh usable battery on the e-tron vs 95kWh on the Model X.
- mikeash 7y agoAh, I just saw 95kWh and figured it was close. I didn't realize the usable was so different. I'm a bit suspicious of the WLTP ratings for these cars. The EPA rating for the Model X Long Range is 325 miles, while the e-tron's EPA rating is only 204 miles. Any idea why the Model X would score lower on WLTP while the e-tron would score so much higher?
- kenhwang 7y agoThey probably just have different blends of city/highway/speeds. Just like how gasoline cars have different estimates from different testing agencies, electric cars do too because they all have different efficiency curves. The ratings generally try to mimic the driving conditions of the region and automakers tend to optimize for their home turf. So it's not too surprising the American automaker does better on the American test and the Europeans do better on the European test.
- erk__ 7y agoWhat is the reason, I do t follow this a lot so could you share some articles or similar about it?
- kenhwang 7y agoThe biggest advantages of NMC over NCA are: - NMC can charge and discharge faster - NMC has longer cycle life - NMC is more heat tolerant Advantages of NCA over NMC are: - NCA is cheaper due to less cobalt use and no magnesium with slower growing demand than NMC which further helps cost going forward - NCA has better energy density (capacity/weight) By far the biggest disadvantage of NCA is it's thermal profile. It's more difficult to cool due to the higher energy density, and prone to fire or explosion when overcharged, overheated, or subjected to physical damage. NCA is a much older battery chemistry than NMC. Historically it's applications have been limited to handheld tools because of how dangerous a mistreated large NCA battery could be.
- nemosaltat 7y agoThis article seems to frame the shared cooling system as a flaw. For a different perspective: [1] “Sean Mitchell, Detroit veteran Sandy Munro of Munro and Associates mentioned that among the Model 3’s unique components, its “Superbottle” is one of the most innovative. Combining two pumps, one heat exchanger, and one coolant valve in one cleverly-designed bottle, the Model 3’s cooling system is arguably the most unique in the auto industry.“ [1] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-superbottle-disruption-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-superbottle-disrupti...
- cowsandmilk 7y agoExcept the article is a comparison to the model S, not the model 3...
- DiabloD3 7y agoModel 3 is just a scaled down Model S using a lot of the same core technology.
- BoorishBears 7y agoI don't know if you actually read the whole article you linked, but the "unique" part of that is the packaging, not the actual operation of the system or the individual components. Like the literal placement of the parts in that piece of plastic (which have no effect on it's function) is what's interesting, the parts and workings besides the actual plastic bottle's shape not surprising or unique. It's impressive in the "wow they really went out of their way to make this thing?" sense, not a "how on earth is that possible" or "no one else could do this". That's why it's described as "slick" Other manufacturers wouldn't do this because you can make the same exact system using parts that have an infinitely better economy of scale, and the penalty in space taken is not large relative to a million other things going into an EV.
- elonissexyaf 7y ago.
- ineedasername 7y agoI believe traditional manufacturers probably know more about building cars that can last (thought not in all cases certainly). But yeah, this does come off as a bit hype-ish over details that probably matter a lot less to buyers.
- greendesk 7y agoTraditional manufacturers also know that they make money from maintaining cars. If traditional manufacturers make cars that last, they will go out of business.
- kalleboo 7y agoDidn't the Japanese basically win the U.S. market by making cars that lasted?
- ineedasername 7y agoThere's a balance they have to strike. If you can't on average get 7-10 years out of a car with normal preventative maintenance, you won't sell many as both those who buy for the long term and the secondary market for used cars will avoid.
- ineedasername 7y agoThe article still doesn't explain the 166 mile difference in range despite only 5kwh difference in battery capacity. Walling off 12% doesn't cover the difference nor does the 4% difference in weight. Is there an efficiency difference?
- rawland 7y agoThis article smeels like PR to me. Especially as Porsche, Audi and VW are basically the same company [0] and struggling to sell their EVs. Tesla is the dominating force. Some numbers from Norway: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/16/tesla-model-3-12-4-of-all-norwegian-vehicle-sales-january-july-2019/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/16/tesla-model-3-12-4-of-a... [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_and_brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Subsidiaries_...
- clouddrover 7y agoVolkswagen Group is the biggest car company in the world at the moment, with Toyota a close second. Volkswagen owns 12 automotive brands. Pretty soon they'll also be the biggest electric car company in the world, purely because they're spending the most money on it: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vws-91b-spend-evs-outpaces-investment-rivals https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vws-91b-spend-evs-out... They'll release multiple EVs across multiple brands every year from now on. Volkswagen's MEB platform is going to allow them to produce cars with equivalent range to Tesla's at a lower price point. Volkswagen says their battery cost is now below $100 per kilowatt hour: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/08/business/volkswagen-trademark-electric-vehicles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/08/business/volkswagen-trade... That's the advantage of the economies of scale Volkswagen will be able to achieve with MEB, both from in-house production and from licensing the platform to other manufacturers from small manufacturers like e.Go to large manufacturers like Ford.
- mschuster91 7y agoBut still: a VW (or for that matter any other car than a Tesla) will not have one thing that makes Tesla unique: software. Even discarding the fact that Tesla has probably the most data worldwide to train self-driving AI and way more experience in building fully-electric cars, no one comes remotely close to what Tesla can do. Modern non-Tesla still are sold with "map updates" ffs, and something like "remote software update" is totally unheard of. Tesla's strength is software and extreme agility in software development. The other car manufacturers are prevented by their sheer size and corporate infighting culture to catch up and they will be for years to come.
- Benjammer 7y agoThis is, at best, "sponsored content" from Audi, and at worst, an Audi advertisement directly written by a PR firm. Why is this on the front page of HN?
- kensai 7y agoBecause people are interested to know why this is happening. Technical people voted for this article to be on the front page. Please respect that. The insinuation that Jalopnik is Audi’s sock puppet is simply unfounded.
- mft_ 7y ago> The insinuation that Jalopnik is Audi’s sock puppet is simply unfounded. The guy actually says that he's been directly influenced by the (PR-driven, because that's how this works) information that he was provided by Audi, and as a result, has written an article about it. "...Audi took the time to explain to me what non-Tesla EVs are bringing to the table. Essentially, the diagrams they sent over of the Audi E-Tron..." He also swallows some of the (Audi PR) arguments whole: "...why the E-Tron goes 204 miles compared to 370 miles for the Model S Long Range. The other big part is the battery itself. First, the Model S packs a bigger 100kWh battery pack compared to the 95kWh pack in the Audi." What about a comparison to other Teslas with smaller batteries --like the model 3 with its 75kWh battery-- which still manage to wallop the e-tron's range?
- kensai 7y agoThe e-tron is a heavy SUV with different aerodynamics in respect to a sedan. I personally find these comparisons useless, anyway. Still, sustained performance is something rarely compared. Let’s see how the Tesla S will fair in the Nürburgring soon.
- braythwayt 7y ago“The guy actually says that he's been directly influenced by the (PR-driven, because that's how this works) information that he was provided by Audi.” Another way to say that is to point out that the author/regurgitator has responsibly disclosed the source of the information so that we may judge for ourselves whether it is interesting. As I pointed out in another thread, I think we all agree that this is planted, the question is whether it is still interesting to read and/or use as an excuse for a discussion.
- clouddrover 7y agoSome manufacturers are beating Tesla on price and range. The Hyundai Kona can be bought for a bit less than a similarly priced Model 3 and the Kona has more range at that price point. The Volkswagen ID.3 will come with three battery sizes for 330km, 420km, and 550km WLTP range and they will be cheaper than the equivalent range Model 3s.
- greendesk 7y agoI would like to point out that ID.3 will come in the future. These ranges are not observed ranges, but a prediction.
- clouddrover 7y agoProduction starts in November. The future's not far away. Volkswagen will be officially launching the ID.3 in a couple of days. They'll probably give more detail then.
- lazyjones 7y ago> The Hyundai Kona can be bought for a bit less than a similarly priced Model 3 and the Kona has more range at that price point. These 2 are not similarly sized vehicles though and the difference in range is negligible. As for performance, it's no real contest.
- clouddrover 7y agoSo you confirm that the Kona is cheaper and it drives further. Well done.
- mamon 7y agoWLTP range is different measurment that Tesla's EPA range. Conversion rate is approximately 1.12:1 ([1]), so ID.3 EPA range would be 491 km. [1] https://insideevs.com/features/343231/heres-how-to-calculate-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-nedc/ https://insideevs.com/features/343231/heres-how-to-calculate...
- zokier 7y agoEven using the quoted 83.6 kWh figure as comparison, tesla gets 50% more miles per kWh. That is still pretty stark difference.
- kensai 7y agoGood point. Well, I guess we need to wait 7-8 years until the batteries from other manufacturers become worn and see if their claims stand. Battery reliability in the long term as well as sustained performance should not be underestimated.
- beamatronic 7y agoI just want more reliable car choices for driving in the car pool lane. There are a number of plug in hybrids SUVs from Lexus, Porsche, and BMW that are not on the approved eligible list. Deferring my next purchase into infinity in the mean time.