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> as you don’t try to sell things through it Why? Why does Apple insist on playing middleman, if not for totalitarian control over all commerce on the platfor

> as you don’t try to sell things through it Why? Why does Apple insist on playing middleman, if not for totalitarian control over all commerce on the platform? How is this not monopolistic anti-trust behavior?

saagarjha 7y ago
I’m not providing my opinion on Apple’s policies; I’m just surfacing them because the linked article doesn’t make them clear.
- scarface74 7y ago
  You’re free to make a web app as long as you don’t try to sell things through it. The clarification made it less clear. You’ve always been able to sell physical goods through the App Store.
  - writepub 7y ago
    What exactly is Apple's role in the sale of digital goods? You made a comparison to selling via Walmart, which is a false equivalency. The app store can easily work like podcasts aggregating RSS feeds from developers, it's just that Apple has forcefully inserted itself into the transaction
    - scarface74 7y ago
      The entire premise of the App Store, permissions and sandboxing is that users should be able to download anything from the App Store willy nilly and know that it won’t do the same type of invasive crap that can happen on Windows and Macs. The App Store is not a flea market. Podcasts can’t install malware, eat battery life, invade privacy, etc. I’m very careful about what I install on my personal computers. I install all sorts of crap on my iOS devices with some type of assurance about knowing what they can and can’t do.
      - writepub 7y ago
        1. Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers. 2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully. 3. Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe The truth is that Apple doesn't play a role in the sale of digital goods, or meaningfully increase security outside automated sandboxing. The real premise of the app store is totalitarianism and greed
        scarface74 7y ago
        Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers. Where is an example of that actually working in the consumer market? How has that worked out for Android? 2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully. Android and iOS also coexist. If you care about “freedom” you are free to use Android like 80%+ of the rest of the smart phone market. Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe And it’s your choice to buy an Android device....
        jamiek88 7y ago
        Then use android. Those of us happy with the trade off will remain on Apples platform.
        zapzupnz 7y ago
        > Then use android. This. It should be so simple, use the platform that best caters to your requirements. Instead, people are happier to bitch and moan about the tactics of a company we've been able to understand for the past 12 years rather than just use and evangelise the platform that best suits their needs.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I assumed that was already known, but I think it's good to have your reminder for those who aren't aware of this.
brlewis 7y ago
Is anything stopping people from going all-in HTML5 and not even worry about having a presence in the app store?
- ChrisAntaki 7y ago
  Sadly, Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps. You might think, why not install Firefox or Chrome on iOS then? Well, turns out Apple only allows those apps to use an outdated version of Safari as their browser engine. Here's a regression that appeared in iOS 10, which affects HTML5 games. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37808180/disable-viewport-zooming-ios-10-safari/45496370 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37808180/disable-viewpor...
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps Then your HTML5 app is broken. Back before there was an App Store, when all "apps" were web apps, I wrote one of the first non-Apple weather apps for the iPhone. It included animated radar, weather alerts, hurricane tracking, and even streaming audio from a real meteorologist. And this was more than a decade ago, on bog-standard launch-day iPhones. It was even featured by Apple back when it had a directory of iPhone web apps. Mobile web apps could be really incredible with today's technology, if so many of them weren't crammed with unnecessary/lazy/stupid garbage.
- writepub 7y ago
  Better user experience. Certain things are better, faster, etc. as a native app. Apple's policies are rooted in totalitarianism and greed. As both developers and consumers we shouldn't be enabling them. You really should be asking the reverse, what motivated Apple to block software from running freely on their phones. After all, their marketing campaign for a whole decade was how secure their non-locked-up Mac was compared to a PC, so we know security isn't the driving force here
  - scarface74 7y ago
scarface74 7y ago
The above statement is not correct. You’ve always been free to sell non digital goods through the App Store. For instance, you can buy anything through the Amazon app that is actually shipped to you. Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff?
- writepub 7y ago
  So generous of Apple to allow the sale of physical goods, despite having no involvement in the sale or production process. We all need to take a moment to count the blessings our benevolent smartphone overlords have bestowed on us.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    And do you have a point? I corrected a factual error.
- pxeboot 7y ago
  > Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff? With permission, sure. I see people selling girl scout cookies, kettle corn, etc in the entry to Walmart all the time.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Try doing that with a for profit business....
vbezhenar 7y ago
Apple wants to earn more money by taking a cut from your transactions. Few people are ready to share their profits unless forced to do so. It's not monopolistic behavior, because Apple does not hold a monopoly in any market.
- mifreewil 7y ago
  When you look at the smartphone market for apps, I think you could make a pretty good argument that there is monopolistic behavior between the two giants, Apple and Google. Call it a duopoly or what have you. The fact that both stores have very similar policies regarding revenue share (70/30) seems to support this. Both stores having the same exact revenue share may just be a consequence of there being a duopoly, or it may be more nefarious where active collusion has occurred between the two. Remember when Apple and Google got caught a few years back colluding against labor? https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po... Now, yes, Android does allow you to download apps outside the Play Store, but not by default. Microsoft was able to make a similar argument with Internet Explorer and Windows with it's monopoly cases. If you are one of a few large powerhouses like Fortnight or Tinder, you may be able take advantage of being able to bypass Play Store.
- slaymaker1907 7y ago
  Except the very important market of App distribution on iOS.
  - WalterGR 7y ago
    Is that a high enough bar to be a monopoly in an important legal sense, though? One could easily switch to Android. If I’m the only person that sells WalterGR’s apple tart appetizers, then I have a monopoly on that. But one could easily buy an them elsewhere... Not trying to do reductio ad absurdum. One could think of an example between apple apps and Apple’s app store.

saagarjha 7y ago

I’m not providing my opinion on Apple’s policies; I’m just surfacing them because the linked article doesn’t make them clear.

scarface74 7y ago
You’re free to make a web app as long as you don’t try to sell things through it. The clarification made it less clear. You’ve always been able to sell physical goods through the App Store.
- writepub 7y ago
  What exactly is Apple's role in the sale of digital goods? You made a comparison to selling via Walmart, which is a false equivalency. The app store can easily work like podcasts aggregating RSS feeds from developers, it's just that Apple has forcefully inserted itself into the transaction
  - scarface74 7y ago
    The entire premise of the App Store, permissions and sandboxing is that users should be able to download anything from the App Store willy nilly and know that it won’t do the same type of invasive crap that can happen on Windows and Macs. The App Store is not a flea market. Podcasts can’t install malware, eat battery life, invade privacy, etc. I’m very careful about what I install on my personal computers. I install all sorts of crap on my iOS devices with some type of assurance about knowing what they can and can’t do.
    - writepub 7y ago
      1. Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers. 2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully. 3. Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe The truth is that Apple doesn't play a role in the sale of digital goods, or meaningfully increase security outside automated sandboxing. The real premise of the app store is totalitarianism and greed
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers. Where is an example of that actually working in the consumer market? How has that worked out for Android? 2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully. Android and iOS also coexist. If you care about “freedom” you are free to use Android like 80%+ of the rest of the smart phone market. Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe And it’s your choice to buy an Android device....
      - jamiek88 7y ago
        Then use android. Those of us happy with the trade off will remain on Apples platform.
        zapzupnz 7y ago
        > Then use android. This. It should be so simple, use the platform that best caters to your requirements. Instead, people are happier to bitch and moan about the tactics of a company we've been able to understand for the past 12 years rather than just use and evangelise the platform that best suits their needs.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I assumed that was already known, but I think it's good to have your reminder for those who aren't aware of this.

brlewis 7y ago

Is anything stopping people from going all-in HTML5 and not even worry about having a presence in the app store?

ChrisAntaki 7y ago
Sadly, Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps. You might think, why not install Firefox or Chrome on iOS then? Well, turns out Apple only allows those apps to use an outdated version of Safari as their browser engine. Here's a regression that appeared in iOS 10, which affects HTML5 games. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37808180/disable-viewport-zooming-ios-10-safari/45496370 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37808180/disable-viewpor...
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps Then your HTML5 app is broken. Back before there was an App Store, when all "apps" were web apps, I wrote one of the first non-Apple weather apps for the iPhone. It included animated radar, weather alerts, hurricane tracking, and even streaming audio from a real meteorologist. And this was more than a decade ago, on bog-standard launch-day iPhones. It was even featured by Apple back when it had a directory of iPhone web apps. Mobile web apps could be really incredible with today's technology, if so many of them weren't crammed with unnecessary/lazy/stupid garbage.
writepub 7y ago
Better user experience. Certain things are better, faster, etc. as a native app. Apple's policies are rooted in totalitarianism and greed. As both developers and consumers we shouldn't be enabling them. You really should be asking the reverse, what motivated Apple to block software from running freely on their phones. After all, their marketing campaign for a whole decade was how secure their non-locked-up Mac was compared to a PC, so we know security isn't the driving force here
- scarface74 7y ago

scarface74 7y ago

The above statement is not correct. You’ve always been free to sell non digital goods through the App Store. For instance, you can buy anything through the Amazon app that is actually shipped to you. Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff?

writepub 7y ago
So generous of Apple to allow the sale of physical goods, despite having no involvement in the sale or production process. We all need to take a moment to count the blessings our benevolent smartphone overlords have bestowed on us.
- scarface74 7y ago
  And do you have a point? I corrected a factual error.
pxeboot 7y ago
> Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff? With permission, sure. I see people selling girl scout cookies, kettle corn, etc in the entry to Walmart all the time.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Try doing that with a for profit business....

vbezhenar 7y ago

Apple wants to earn more money by taking a cut from your transactions. Few people are ready to share their profits unless forced to do so. It's not monopolistic behavior, because Apple does not hold a monopoly in any market.

mifreewil 7y ago
When you look at the smartphone market for apps, I think you could make a pretty good argument that there is monopolistic behavior between the two giants, Apple and Google. Call it a duopoly or what have you. The fact that both stores have very similar policies regarding revenue share (70/30) seems to support this. Both stores having the same exact revenue share may just be a consequence of there being a duopoly, or it may be more nefarious where active collusion has occurred between the two. Remember when Apple and Google got caught a few years back colluding against labor? https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po... Now, yes, Android does allow you to download apps outside the Play Store, but not by default. Microsoft was able to make a similar argument with Internet Explorer and Windows with it's monopoly cases. If you are one of a few large powerhouses like Fortnight or Tinder, you may be able take advantage of being able to bypass Play Store.
slaymaker1907 7y ago
Except the very important market of App distribution on iOS.
- WalterGR 7y ago
  Is that a high enough bar to be a monopoly in an important legal sense, though? One could easily switch to Android. If I’m the only person that sells WalterGR’s apple tart appetizers, then I have a monopoly on that. But one could easily buy an them elsewhere... Not trying to do reductio ad absurdum. One could think of an example between apple apps and Apple’s app store.