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The driver was found using his phone, over-relied on the autopilot system, and lied about what he was doing when being questioned. Sadly, we can't 100% trust th

The driver was found using his phone, over-relied on the autopilot system, and lied about what he was doing when being questioned. Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development.

birdyrooster 7y ago
If we want to be fair to consumers and bystanders, Tesla needs their product to safely stop the reckless behavior (not simply warn the user). If it can't do that, it needs to disable AutoPilot. AutoPilot was marketed in a way which led to Tesla selling their product to people with unwittingly dangerous uses in mind. It is unacceptable for Tesla to enable this reckless driving. Tesla has the ability to affect the scale of this problem most readily and relying on individual consumers is not in the best interests of public health.
- gpm 7y ago
  Why can't I say literally the exact same thing about all cars? Let's hold people responsible for their actions, not objects. It's one thing to say "autopilot makes it hard to focus", it's another thing to say "autopilot made me pick up the phone while driving, and lie about it".
  - birdyrooster 7y ago
    Tesla's Auto Pilot website makes claims that other auto manufacturers don't make like: "With the new Tesla Vision cameras, sensors and computing power, your Tesla will navigate tighter, more complex roads." There is a lot implied in the short phrasing of "navigate tighter, more complex roads". It also begs the question that Tesla's capabilities were sufficient in the first place. "All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat." Why make potentially misleading and untested future-looking statements when consumer safety should be the focus of a system like this? https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
- zaroth 7y ago
  This might sound like a good idea in principle — in effect, don’t allow people to use the system unless they are more attentive then even most drivers are normally. The problem is the natural outcome is that people will then simply just stop using the system, and end up less safe because of it, causing more accidents and possibly costing lives. In the interest of public health, the system has to be better than the average driver, and also not annoyingly unusable. So there is a balancing act. Tesla will already disable AP if you keep your hands off the wheel for too long. It even locks you out for the rest of the drive as a “penalty box” so you can’t just turn it back on. As I drive down the highway on AP, the number of cars drifting in their lanes, crossing the lines, changing lanes without signaling, not maintaining proper speed, driving aggressively, driving for an exit at the last minute, panic breaking, etc. is actually somewhat mind blowing. It’s amazing there aren’t more accidents. Versus the Model 3 which maintains speed and centers in its lane more precisely than I even do manually, for mile after mile. What’s also remarkable is the constant progression of new features, better feature detection, more complex navigation and route planning which has happened over just the last 12 months. Tesla AP now in 2019 is significantly improved from what it looked like even July 2018, and v10 will just continue the progression. Tesla safety stats are hard to compare to the general public, but what I can say definitely is a Tesla on AP on the highway is way more consistent and predictable of a driver than any human. It’s better to be in the Tesla in AP on the highway, but I imagine it’s also better to be driving behind or beside the Tesla in that same situation because it’s not driving distracted like almost everyone else on the road.
c3534l 7y ago
The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it's okay to roll out a feature that may cause people to stop paying attention to the road.
- diminoten 7y ago
  It is certainly okay when the rates at which these things happen is lower than the rates at which non-self driving cars have accidents. A 0% accident rate is unrealistic and unfair.
  - macintux 7y ago
    Statistics makes for a tough sell to the survivors. “Yes, this autonomous vehicle killed your son who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but someone else’s son would have died in an unrelated accident somewhere else were it not for autonomy.”
    - kemitche 7y ago
      Assume for a moment that vaccines could actually cause autism at a small rate. Your argument applies there. "Yes your son became autistic, but someone else's son somewhere else didn't get measles and die." I understand there are human emotions involved, but my opinion is that significantly reducing death count is still a better outcome. If we can't accept that noticeably better systems will still have faults, and that those faults will result in a different, but smaller number of deaths, then we're content asking for more deaths than necessary.
      - ipython 7y ago
        You don’t need to assume. With any medical procedure, there is risk involved. Including routine vaccination. That’s why there is a dedicated program to both report and compensate people who suffer adverse reactions from vaccines. See https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html
vkou 7y ago
What is the point of a self-driving system where you need to stay attentive behind the wheel? The physical act of turning a wheel isn't the hard part of driving. Paying attention is.
- danhak 7y ago
  > The physical act of turning a wheel isn't the hard part of driving. Paying attention is. As an avid user of Tesla Autopilot I'll disagree with this. On a long road trip, monitoring my surroundings and making sure everything is generally ok is far less fatiguing than making constant microadjustments to steering, speed and following distance. Even while paying close attention to the ride, long trips (especially in stop-and-go traffic) become significantly less stressful and exhausting.
  - vkou 7y ago
    > is far less fatiguing than making constant microadjustments to steering, speed and following distance. Adaptive cruise control and lane assist, available in every modern car under the sun will make microadjustments to steering, speed, and following distance all day long. What exactly does autopilot bring to the table?
    - macintux 7y ago
      I also wonder whether “dumber” systems are easier to predict. I’d feel much more comfortable knowing what the car won’t do (change lanes on me, e.g.). (Update: to be clear, I’m not inherently opposed to a car changing lanes if I need it to, but it seems easier to deal with a potential emergency, and easier to persuade myself to pay more attention, if I know definitively it won’t do something that sophisticated.)
    - kinghajj 7y ago
      That's all Autopilot is--Tesla's branding for adaptive cruise and lane keeping. It's just as useful as competitor's versions.
  - olliej 7y ago
olliej 7y ago
If you create a system that by design will cause the driver to lose focus, you are responsible for the driver losing focus. Saying “we told the users that they must pay attention while they are not driving”, or “we told them that the system called ‘auto-pilot’ is not actually able to autopilot the car”, and “we advertised the car’s self driving ability but had documentation saying it doesn’t actually have that ability” then you are responsible for that system driver behaving exactly as you would predict. Their have been numerous studies that show that people stop paying attention when they are given menial or non-focus dependent tasks. Saying that the only safe way to use autopilot is by not being a human is fundamentally the same as saying “the brakes in the car only work if you press them continuously for 5s or apply 300lbs of force”.
- JeffL 7y ago
  My experience with autopilot isn't that I lose focus as much as I focus on something else. Instead of focusing on keeping in my lane, not going too fast, and if the car ahead of me is braking, I'm focusing on the road ahead -- is there construction coming up? Is there debris in the road? Is there a wall ahead that gets too close to the road? Is there anything weird up ahead that needs attention? You learn what AP can and can't handle and you keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary, which on long road trips is significantly less fatiguing and probably safer.
  - munmaek 7y ago
    > as much as I focus on something else. Yes, so people ending up focusing on things like cellphones and email.
    - JeffL 7y ago
      There's obviously going to be some of that from people in every sort of car. The hope is that over all, people with AP are safer. I personally feel like I am.
Traster 7y ago
>Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. And companies selling the systems need to stop calling them "Autopilot". >The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development. You'll actually hear this from people working on self-driving at most companies. That they have deliberately been conservative about their roll out and claims because they don't want to destroy the concept of self-driving before they can achieve it. Tesla has done a great job of damaging the reputation of self-driving cars for everyone.
- nocitrek 7y ago
  Realisticly, Tesla has done more for self-driving cars than any company in the world. It is almost synonym with self-driving car. Mistakes are inevitable no matter what you do, so I would be careful with your last statement.

birdyrooster 7y ago

If we want to be fair to consumers and bystanders, Tesla needs their product to safely stop the reckless behavior (not simply warn the user). If it can't do that, it needs to disable AutoPilot. AutoPilot was marketed in a way which led to Tesla selling their product to people with unwittingly dangerous uses in mind. It is unacceptable for Tesla to enable this reckless driving. Tesla has the ability to affect the scale of this problem most readily and relying on individual consumers is not in the best interests of public health.

gpm 7y ago
Why can't I say literally the exact same thing about all cars? Let's hold people responsible for their actions, not objects. It's one thing to say "autopilot makes it hard to focus", it's another thing to say "autopilot made me pick up the phone while driving, and lie about it".
- birdyrooster 7y ago
  Tesla's Auto Pilot website makes claims that other auto manufacturers don't make like: "With the new Tesla Vision cameras, sensors and computing power, your Tesla will navigate tighter, more complex roads." There is a lot implied in the short phrasing of "navigate tighter, more complex roads". It also begs the question that Tesla's capabilities were sufficient in the first place. "All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat." Why make potentially misleading and untested future-looking statements when consumer safety should be the focus of a system like this? https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
zaroth 7y ago
This might sound like a good idea in principle — in effect, don’t allow people to use the system unless they are more attentive then even most drivers are normally. The problem is the natural outcome is that people will then simply just stop using the system, and end up less safe because of it, causing more accidents and possibly costing lives. In the interest of public health, the system has to be better than the average driver, and also not annoyingly unusable. So there is a balancing act. Tesla will already disable AP if you keep your hands off the wheel for too long. It even locks you out for the rest of the drive as a “penalty box” so you can’t just turn it back on. As I drive down the highway on AP, the number of cars drifting in their lanes, crossing the lines, changing lanes without signaling, not maintaining proper speed, driving aggressively, driving for an exit at the last minute, panic breaking, etc. is actually somewhat mind blowing. It’s amazing there aren’t more accidents. Versus the Model 3 which maintains speed and centers in its lane more precisely than I even do manually, for mile after mile. What’s also remarkable is the constant progression of new features, better feature detection, more complex navigation and route planning which has happened over just the last 12 months. Tesla AP now in 2019 is significantly improved from what it looked like even July 2018, and v10 will just continue the progression. Tesla safety stats are hard to compare to the general public, but what I can say definitely is a Tesla on AP on the highway is way more consistent and predictable of a driver than any human. It’s better to be in the Tesla in AP on the highway, but I imagine it’s also better to be driving behind or beside the Tesla in that same situation because it’s not driving distracted like almost everyone else on the road.

c3534l 7y ago

The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it's okay to roll out a feature that may cause people to stop paying attention to the road.

diminoten 7y ago
It is certainly okay when the rates at which these things happen is lower than the rates at which non-self driving cars have accidents. A 0% accident rate is unrealistic and unfair.
- macintux 7y ago
  Statistics makes for a tough sell to the survivors. “Yes, this autonomous vehicle killed your son who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but someone else’s son would have died in an unrelated accident somewhere else were it not for autonomy.”
  - kemitche 7y ago
    Assume for a moment that vaccines could actually cause autism at a small rate. Your argument applies there. "Yes your son became autistic, but someone else's son somewhere else didn't get measles and die." I understand there are human emotions involved, but my opinion is that significantly reducing death count is still a better outcome. If we can't accept that noticeably better systems will still have faults, and that those faults will result in a different, but smaller number of deaths, then we're content asking for more deaths than necessary.
    - ipython 7y ago
      You don’t need to assume. With any medical procedure, there is risk involved. Including routine vaccination. That’s why there is a dedicated program to both report and compensate people who suffer adverse reactions from vaccines. See https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

vkou 7y ago

What is the point of a self-driving system where you need to stay attentive behind the wheel? The physical act of turning a wheel isn't the hard part of driving. Paying attention is.

danhak 7y ago
> The physical act of turning a wheel isn't the hard part of driving. Paying attention is. As an avid user of Tesla Autopilot I'll disagree with this. On a long road trip, monitoring my surroundings and making sure everything is generally ok is far less fatiguing than making constant microadjustments to steering, speed and following distance. Even while paying close attention to the ride, long trips (especially in stop-and-go traffic) become significantly less stressful and exhausting.
- vkou 7y ago
  > is far less fatiguing than making constant microadjustments to steering, speed and following distance. Adaptive cruise control and lane assist, available in every modern car under the sun will make microadjustments to steering, speed, and following distance all day long. What exactly does autopilot bring to the table?
  - macintux 7y ago
    I also wonder whether “dumber” systems are easier to predict. I’d feel much more comfortable knowing what the car won’t do (change lanes on me, e.g.). (Update: to be clear, I’m not inherently opposed to a car changing lanes if I need it to, but it seems easier to deal with a potential emergency, and easier to persuade myself to pay more attention, if I know definitively it won’t do something that sophisticated.)
  - kinghajj 7y ago
    That's all Autopilot is--Tesla's branding for adaptive cruise and lane keeping. It's just as useful as competitor's versions.
- olliej 7y ago

olliej 7y ago

If you create a system that by design will cause the driver to lose focus, you are responsible for the driver losing focus. Saying “we told the users that they must pay attention while they are not driving”, or “we told them that the system called ‘auto-pilot’ is not actually able to autopilot the car”, and “we advertised the car’s self driving ability but had documentation saying it doesn’t actually have that ability” then you are responsible for that system driver behaving exactly as you would predict. Their have been numerous studies that show that people stop paying attention when they are given menial or non-focus dependent tasks. Saying that the only safe way to use autopilot is by not being a human is fundamentally the same as saying “the brakes in the car only work if you press them continuously for 5s or apply 300lbs of force”.

JeffL 7y ago
My experience with autopilot isn't that I lose focus as much as I focus on something else. Instead of focusing on keeping in my lane, not going too fast, and if the car ahead of me is braking, I'm focusing on the road ahead -- is there construction coming up? Is there debris in the road? Is there a wall ahead that gets too close to the road? Is there anything weird up ahead that needs attention? You learn what AP can and can't handle and you keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary, which on long road trips is significantly less fatiguing and probably safer.
- munmaek 7y ago
  > as much as I focus on something else. Yes, so people ending up focusing on things like cellphones and email.
  - JeffL 7y ago
    There's obviously going to be some of that from people in every sort of car. The hope is that over all, people with AP are safer. I personally feel like I am.

Traster 7y ago

>Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. And companies selling the systems need to stop calling them "Autopilot". >The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development. You'll actually hear this from people working on self-driving at most companies. That they have deliberately been conservative about their roll out and claims because they don't want to destroy the concept of self-driving before they can achieve it. Tesla has done a great job of damaging the reputation of self-driving cars for everyone.

nocitrek 7y ago
Realisticly, Tesla has done more for self-driving cars than any company in the world. It is almost synonym with self-driving car. Mistakes are inevitable no matter what you do, so I would be careful with your last statement.